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Nacra 17's

Posted By: BadLatitude1337

Nacra 17's - 06/04/13 01:45 AM

well its official the nacra17's are here we just took a shipment here at KeySailing in Pensacola. Cant wait to get one on the water
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/04/13 05:53 PM

Charlie, that is great news. At Candler we rated the boat same as the F 18 - 62.4. I am sure the Texel rating will be coming soon. One leg the F18 would round first, and for the next weather mark rounding the N 17 would prevail. They appear fast downwind, that is for sure.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/05/13 06:25 PM

So how many are stateside? What events will they be doing? Any chance they'll be racing outside the Olympic circle?
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/05/13 07:27 PM

Robbie and Taylor raced N 17s this past weekend. Check out the Candler site for the elapsed times. Kirk's shipment is evaporating by the day. Want one? Give him a call soon.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/05/13 08:26 PM

Want one? Sure, if they're free!
Robbie and Taylor are both attempting Olympic campaigns.
Yes the boats are fast but so are Robbie and Taylor, they likely would have been first on a F18.
How many boats are going to non-Olympians?

Please don't get me wrong the N17 has a lot of appeal to me given our current crew weight and makeup (mixed) fits the bill perfectly for a N17. Just doesn't make sense with our regatta schedule and certainly not happening this year. We don't have time to run an Olympic campaign and keep our day jobs, I know how much training those teams are doing.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/05/13 08:57 PM

I look at the N17's as being half baked... Not quite optimized for the inclusion of curved foils. A cats have been driven by lots of designers optimizing the curved boards shape, location, etc etc and now they are landing on a solution of curved boards and T foils on the rudders. (They can't use the AC foil designs legally) The N17 is frozen in time as an Olympic class.

For Olympics... it won't be an issue... since the class is so tightly controlled (can't even move cleats) that the sailors will stand on their ear if need be to max the boats performance..

For the US rec racer... There are lots of questions.. Where do you race this boat? The Olympic class must be of mixed teams... so most rec racers would have trouble forming a team in this class. You can count on a Miami OCR regatta and a North Americans in this class.... So, is that enough racing to warrant 25K for a boat? Set aside the gran prix circuit... Do you continually tweak the N17 or upgrade it like the Nacra carbon 20 or the A class to optimize it? Does the boat draw in new racers from keel boats or other dinghy classes... and or does it cannibalize the F18 fleet? What happens when the Flying Phantom is produced for consumers and boats now fly but N17's don't?

I could see a life for the boat IF we had a North American SCHRS Handicap class schedule of events for these new designs that won't get a critical mass for one design. The gearheads and folks that demand to be cutting edge would have events to go to... beyond some distance races. Mix in some sailors with one design boats who slum it in open class and you would have a viable national circuit that would make the boat a viable race boat.

Help me out seeing the future of this boat. Is there a NA class president / class association?
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/05/13 09:35 PM

Mark,you better spend some time in Florida.

The spread in availability will gradually increase east of the Mississippi through the remainder of this year.

The F 18 and F 16 Classes will continue to hold their own until those boats grow tired, and my guess is they will be replaced with NACRA 17s as time goes on by the wanna - be foilers. I am wondering if the boat is too heavy for lifting foils and rudder 'wings.' Jake you there for comment on this?

Rudder stabilizers are the hot trend now for the A Cats with curved foils. Let's hope NACRA considers this in short time.

For this year - take good care of your F 18 sails and trailer.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/05/13 09:51 PM

This is funny. A new Olympic boat jumps on the market and now the demise of the Formula rule boats that we've grown to love for a myriad of reasons (#1 is it ISN'T SMOD) is predicted?

Where's the big F20c fleet?
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/05/13 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by catandahalf
...Jake you there for comment on this?

...


nope. They had to peel the N20 tiller out of my hand. The same thing will happen with my F18. Dang boats are too expensive anymore to keep chasing the latest and greatest...added to which, I already feel like the F18 is too short. Well...I guess I did comment.

The 17 is fine - but competition is a real issue for me. I don't have anyway to put a mixed team together nor do I care to boot my now regular crew to the curb. Even if they would create rules where mixed crew weren't the case, at 370, we're marginal to compete on an F18 let alone a shorter boat. I'll admire them, but it's unlikely that I'll ever buy one.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/05/13 10:05 PM

Nacra has nothing more to say about the N17... it is SMOD but it is now regulated by ISAF for the Olympics. Nothing is changing on that boat till after the 2016 games.

SMOD seems kind of retro... the only other International cat class that is SMOD and in production is the Hobie 16.

So... all you have is Florida is leading the country? I just don't see it.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 01:09 AM

I like SMOD. Not popular here, but I still prefer it. I respect formula and like all racing, but prefer SMOD. There tends to be less blaming of the boat (or rating) in SMOD racing.

Mike
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Is there a NA class president / class association?


The US Class bylaws are drafted and they're moving toward appointing officers. This is how the F18s got started back in 2005 - volunteers drafted bylaws, adopted them by consent and the first officers were appointed.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Jake

The 17 is fine - but competition is a real issue for me. I don't have anyway to put a mixed team together nor do I care to boot my now regular crew to the curb.

You don't necessarily have to boot your crew, medical research has come a long way you know. wink

Dont really have an opinion on the N17, its a tool for the Olympic path but I don't think many people will leave their trusted F16/F18 fleets behind just yet.
As 2nd hand boats come available there could be some people who pick one up but unless you have the skills to compete at worldcup level you will just be sailing on handicap.
IMHO the 2nd hand boats sailed by the current teams will be pretty worn out though considering how much TOW they get.

The mixed sailing is cool though and good to see that it is growing in F18 as well (one third of the teams at our last major regatta where mixed).
Posted By: mini

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 01:22 PM

I heard some reports from a couple of teams who went to the Olympic training camp in Miami. A few youth teams on F16 went and sailed with some of the Olympic 17 teams. While the boat is new and there was not a lot of head to head time, the 16s appeared faster or at least as fast, especially downwind in the conditions where they were lining up together.

The 17s were thrown together to provide a submission for selection as the Olympic boat. Anything wrong with them cannot be changed and the boat will remain unoptimized for the next 3+ years at least. The Olympic teams sailing them will spend huge amounts of time and money to make these boats go as fast as possible. As far as a rating goes it will be driven by the world class sailors competing for an Olympic medal. Your weekend warrior buying one of these is not going to compete with the top guys and no way will be able to drive the boat to the numbers that are going to be given to the boat because of the top guys.

Maybe long term, there will end up being enough used boats coming from the teams to field a fleet of “regular” sailors. In the short term this looks to be a very expensive disappointment if you think you can buy one and actually compete.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by catandahalf
M
The F 18 and F 16 Classes will continue to hold their own until those boats grow tired, and my guess is they will be replaced with NACRA 17s as time goes on by the wanna - be foilers. I am wondering if the boat is too heavy for lifting foils and rudder 'wings.' Jake you there for comment on this?

Rudder stabilizers are the hot trend now for the A Cats with curved foils. Let's hope NACRA considers this in short time.

For this year - take good care of your F 18 sails and trailer.


Geebus Bert you really don't like the F18 class do you. When your grandson got involved with the F16 you said almost the exact same thing about the F16 replacing the F18 along with MANY others yet here we are still chugging along with our little piggies.

The N17 is exactly what it was built for... an olympic platform which is demanding to sail and difficult to perfect. Many of those making a run at it will run out of time, money or discover they just don't have the skillset to compete at the olympic level and the N17 will be just like the T-class where the difference between the have's and have not's is dramatic and the have's is a small pool.

Sorry Bert, I think the F18 and F16 classes will be just fine and if we do come apart it will be of our own doing and not because of the N17.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 02:12 PM

Quote
Your weekend warrior buying one of these is not going to compete with the top guys and no way will be able to drive the boat to the numbers that are going to be given to the boat because of the top guys.


For Portsmouth Racing you have a point... the basic assumption for the handicap system is violated... all fleets are equally skilled. ergo... garbage in... garbage out

SCHRS and Texel handicaps are based on measurements.... The current state of the art is trying to understand how much curved foils change things... Of course.. if you or your builder badly execute the curved foils in your design.. your boat will be a dog... the measurement rating formula has no chance to be accurate (for the dog) and rate the high performer

Keep in mind that there is only so much accuracy that can be had with handicap racing and there is a lot of noise in sailboat race data.

I am surprised at how little buzz there is about the N17 kicking butt on the F16 and the F18 fleets in xxx regatta.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by mini
I heard some reports from a couple of teams who went to the Olympic training camp in Miami. A few youth teams on F16 went and sailed with some of the Olympic 17 teams. While the boat is new and there was not a lot of head to head time, the 16s appeared faster or at least as fast, especially downwind in the conditions where they were lining up together.



Maybe that's true but it's think it way to early to declare the F16 faster, the boats sail completely differently. Upwind and off the starting line the N17 is screwed. Find one on the line and make it your best friend regardless of who is sailing it. Don't feel bad for them, they will pay you back once they round 'A' mark.
Posted By: mini

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
Your weekend warrior buying one of these is not going to compete with the top guys and no way will be able to drive the boat to the numbers that are going to be given to the boat because of the top guys.


For Portsmouth Racing you have a point... the basic assumption for the handicap system is violated... all fleets are equally skilled. ergo... garbage in... garbage out

SCHRS and Texel handicaps are based on measurements.... The current state of the art is trying to understand how much curved foils change things... Of course.. if you or your builder badly execute the curved foils in your design.. your boat will be a dog... the measurement rating formula has no chance to be accurate (for the dog) and rate the high performer

Keep in mind that there is only so much accuracy that can be had with handicap racing and there is a lot of noise in sailboat race data.

I am surprised at how little buzz there is about the N17 kicking butt on the F16 and the F18 fleets in xxx regatta.


SCHRS and Texel are just another convoluted method to try and form some basis to compare boats. Yes there is a measurement system in place, but the calculation is manipulated by people to try and make the output correction factor match what is happening at events. In other words, the calulator is just BS covering up peoples manipulation of the system and has no more relavance than Portsmouth or any other system.

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
Your weekend warrior buying one of these is not going to compete with the top guys and no way will be able to drive the boat to the numbers that are going to be given to the boat because of the top guys.


For Portsmouth Racing you have a point... the basic assumption for the handicap system is violated... all fleets are equally skilled. ergo... garbage in... garbage out

SCHRS and Texel handicaps are based on measurements.... The current state of the art is trying to understand how much curved foils change things... Of course.. if you or your builder badly execute the curved foils in your design.. your boat will be a dog... the measurement rating formula has no chance to be accurate (for the dog) and rate the high performer

Keep in mind that there is only so much accuracy that can be had with handicap racing and there is a lot of noise in sailboat race data.

I am surprised at how little buzz there is about the N17 kicking butt on the F16 and the F18 fleets in xxx regatta.


I too have to call bullsh!t on the SCHRS measurement system! Mark please explain how a measurement system made the F16 slower and the F18 faster. Since the F16 and F18 are following almost the exact same development path is SCHRS saying that a heavy boat is actually faster? Really?

Handicap racing has it's place but it's NEVER going to have any real credablity.

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by mini

SCHRS and Texel are just another convoluted method to try and form some basis to compare boats. Yes there is a measurement system in place, but the calculation is manipulated by people to try and make the output correction factor match what is happening at events. In other words, the calulator is just BS covering up peoples manipulation of the system and has no more relavance than Portsmouth or any other system.



That saved me a bit of typing.
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 03:26 PM

Dave and all,

Since I was the race officer for the 2008 NAs in Pensacola I have admired the class. Do not get me wrong - the F 18 Class is the top of the pyramid for HP Class catamaran racing in the USA and will remain there for quit some time.

How could I down the F 18 following you and Laura's great performance against the C2 and the N 17s last weekend?

I have also ridden the NACRA train long enough to know what their definition is of 'SMOD.'

The new NACRA 17 will slowly join club - level starting lines in a couple years, and F 18/F 16 loyalists will remain devoted because of the many friendships developed in those classes over the years.

The Rice family will probably have the F 16 until the government outlaws public sailing for safety reasons :-)
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 03:28 PM

Aaaaa...I guess it's been about a year since we had another iteration of the great handicap debate...please proceed.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by mini
I heard some reports from a couple of teams who went to the Olympic training camp in Miami. A few youth teams on F16 went and sailed with some of the Olympic 17 teams. While the boat is new and there was not a lot of head to head time, the 16s appeared faster or at least as fast, especially downwind in the conditions where they were lining up together.

I highly doubt that, from what I saw the N17s are very fast downwind especially in light to moderate conditions (which I'm guessing Miami has).
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 03:30 PM

Like some others said, the N17 fits it's calling pretty well; Mixed, lightweight teams looking toward the Olympics. Several will trickle into the regular sailing circles, which is fine...but it doesn't address the needs of the normal F16 or F18 racer/sailor very well. I don't see it encroaching much at all into either one of those classes.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Like some others said, the N17 fits it's calling pretty well; Mixed, lightweight teams looking toward the Olympics. Several will trickle into the regular sailing circles, which is fine...but it doesn't address the needs of the normal F16 or F18 racer/sailor very well. I don't see it encroaching much at all into either one of those classes.


Have you asked your Nacra dealer how many new F18s he has sold compared to N17s?
Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Aaaaa...I guess it's been about a year since we had another iteration of the great handicap debate...please proceed.


I know that I speak for many (if not most) of us here: Great googley moogley, please don't...

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 04:16 PM

Ah... ignorance is still blissful after all of these years.

So.... you have a SINGLE FORMULA... The formula describes a non linear curve... the paramaters in the SINGLE formula match up to boat measurements (sail area, all up weight, etc etc etc). Plug in your boats measurements and you get your rating.

The question is how accurate is your class's rating (F18) relative to (F16) or the curvey board( N17)'s AND the rest of the catamaran classes...

Quote
but the calculation is manipulated by people to try and make the output correction factor match what is happening at events. In other words, the calulator is just BS covering up peoples manipulation of the system and has no more relavance than Portsmouth or any other system.


Ah... the words MANIPULATED (oooo... bad word) to MATCH THE REAL WORLD.... Try using the more neutral and accurate word "Fit the parmaters" to match the real world.

In other words..... BS ..... NOPE.... This is just your twisted characterization.
Quote


Has no more relevance then Portsmouth or any other system.

Really... how dense can you be..

The Portsmouth system generates A SINGLE Individual rating based on the top boat in the class between the top yardstick boats in the fleet.... It is proven to be easily skewed by a rock star who campaigns the boat... crushes the weekend warior and generates an innacurate rating.. IE his personal handicap rating versus the fleet... (See the F16 rating FUBAR (when no body raced the boat) ... or the P19MX rating when Randy designed and raced that rig from 20 years ago or the CFR20)

Texel and SCHRS generate a SINGLE FORMULA which generates an entirely new rating table adjusting all of the boats ratings to each other. Huge differences between the two mechanisms in how the table is generated.

Dave writes.
Quote
Handicap racing has it's place but it's NEVER going to have any real credablity.


I agree Handicap racing has it's place.

I have NO idea what "real credibility" means... If you win Texel... does that mean your win has marginal real credibility?

Handicap racing will never resolve sailing performance differences as well as one design racing. The NOISE in the actual racing and the accuracy and precision of the ratings table (SCHRS to PHRF to Portsmouth) limit the resolution. That is life... but we do agree ... Handicap racing has its place.

It is also true that the sound and fury over ratings is mostly BS... most Racing Results on the water have time differences that don't require more accuracy and precision from the handicap system. In other words... If you loose a race... the decimal point in your rating is not the issue. (Ask your scorekeeper to publish the BCR... the back calculated rating for your performance... IE what rating would you have needed to win that race).

So.... in 2013... the huge number of Dead Boat Society classes are now in landfills.... We KNOW that a 30 year old P19 cannot sail to its rating.. Fact of life these boats are not racing.

Handicap racing has its place in rating the active one design classes when they decide that more fun is had with more boats in the race... and handicap is the way to get that. So far, nobody forsees a N17 non olympic racing class forming...
SO... if you want those boats to play... you have to race F16's F18's N17s N20's and NCarbon20s against one another on handicap.

Quote
but it's NEVER going to have any real credablity.
From my point of view.. Credibility is not my concern...
Fun Factor is my concern and more boats on the line = More Fun....
ergo pick the most transparant handicap rating system available (SCHRS) and go sailing.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 04:23 PM

Yes, more boats on the line equals more fun. Rating systems that the sailors don't trust take a lot of that fun away after the scores are posted. No one ever wants to admit that they went the wrong way, pinched too much or blew too many tacks when there's something much easier to blame: the rating/system.

The rise of OD/formula racing, at the expense of handicap racing is not unique to cats, or the Portsmouth system, and the reasons are the same.

Can we be done now?

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Jake
Aaaaa...I guess it's been about a year since we had another iteration of the great handicap debate...please proceed.


I know that I speak for many (if not most) of us here: Great googley moogley, please don't...

Mike


Mike, you can't stop this train. Don't waste your energy.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 04:36 PM

Bwahahahaha
Posted By: mini

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 04:41 PM

Mark,

How blind can you be?
Portsmouth was just open about how they worked the numbers. The schrs and texel just hide the politics behind a calculation.
It does not take any time at all to look at the calculation and see it flawed in its logic as almost every variable is inherently self limiting by nature. Then a little history on the changes continually made to it clearly show politics behind the scenes.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 04:53 PM

Don't have to check with the dealer... more N17's... duh! We've all been around long enough to pretty much know how this is going to play out. The big plus is more lady skippers.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Jake
Aaaaa...I guess it's been about a year since we had another iteration of the great handicap debate...please proceed.


I know that I speak for many (if not most) of us here: Great googley moogley, please don't...

Mike


Mike, you can't stop this train. Don't waste your energy.


Now boys no need to get snarky, that's my job. Nobody's is making you look at the naked fat man it's you that can't seem to stop yourselves, which tells me you are both kinda into it.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
...but it doesn't address the needs of the normal F16 or F18 racer/sailor very well.


Yeah, it doesn't have those gimbaled cup holders.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Jake
...but it doesn't address the needs of the normal F16 or F18 racer/sailor very well.


Yeah, it doesn't have those gimbaled cup holders.


Or a 4:1 traveler. I forget get nothing boatless boy.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 05:08 PM

and a 25:1 mainsheet for my delicate hands.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Jake
Aaaaa...I guess it's been about a year since we had another iteration of the great handicap debate...please proceed.


I know that I speak for many (if not most) of us here: Great googley moogley, please don't...

Mike


Mike, you can't stop this train. Don't waste your energy.


Now boys no need to get snarky, that's my job. Nobody's is making you look at the naked fat man it's you that can't seem to stop yourselves, which tells me you are both kinda into it.


Ding, I was with you right up until your conclusion. Could have done without that visual imagery as well. Going back to sticking my head in the sand, right after I get done hurling up lunch...

Mike
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 05:50 PM

I'm actually really serious about actual numbers of F17's in the country. From my sources it is less than or equal to 30. I know how many were in Miami, and the same number of F18's exists at one sailing site in Florida. So again more b.s being spewed on the interwebs.

Finally all this SCHRS nonsense is B.S too. From what I've seen the rating system works as well as it possibly can. We were right next to a 2-up F16 in super light air on the Infusion Tuesday night and walked away downwind at very similar crew weights (within 10lbs or so). Guess what platform weight had nothing to do with actual performance on the race course. Only kills us after we're done sailing. The F18's rating lower than the F16's and equal to the A-Cat's seems very fair to me in actual racing environments; reality is they are all very closely rated and it's the sailors that matter. Distance racing is another matter, where the SCHRS and most handicup rating systems break down (i.e, if we were racing an A upwind for long periods of time it's game over).

Not sure what sex changes and checking your crews manscap have to do with either, but if that's your thing I'm not stopping you.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
I'm actually really serious about actual numbers of F17's in the country. From my sources it is less than or equal to 30. I know how many were in Miami, and the same number of F18's exists at one sailing site in Florida. So again more b.s being spewed on the interwebs.

Finally all this SCHRS nonsense is B.S too. From what I've seen the rating system works as well as it possibly can. We were right next to a 2-up F16 in super light air on the Infusion Tuesday night and walked away downwind at very similar crew weights (within 10lbs or so). Guess what platform weight had nothing to do with actual performance on the race course. Only kills us after we're done sailing. The F18's rating lower than the F16's and equal to the A-Cat's seems very fair to me in actual racing environments; reality is they are all very closely rated and it's the sailors that matter. Distance racing is another matter, where the SCHRS and most handicup rating systems break down (i.e, if we were racing an A upwind for long periods of time it's game over).

Not sure what sex changes and checking your crews manscap have to do with either, but if that's your thing I'm not stopping you.


No mention of the skill sets involved Sam that kinda has something to do with it. Also in super light(ghosting constidions) you know you can be right next someone and you can get something and they don't.

If you think you're going to walk away from a min weight Falcon running at 250 lbs of crew weight in the soft stuff and the team has the skills to make it go you are in denial. If platform weight doesn't matter why is a portion of the F16 class pushing to increase the min weight of the platform? Can you guess which portion?

Platform weight matters Sam, ask yourself do you want a heavy F18 or one that is close to or at min weight? Why did Jill deaply discount the heavy C2's? Weight doesn't matter and handicap racing works... they call that a twofer.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 06:39 PM

Dave sure I would like a lighter boat but guess what we finished in front of a minimum weight Falcon F16 with less than 250 lbs of crew weight on board in the same race. They were 1-up though, maybe not a fair comparison. And yes it was a ghost race so not a very fair situation. We generally finish in front of him as long as we keep it upright. My SCHRS thoughts are based on a range of conditions and a range of sailors. Handicap racing is what it is, no ones favorite but you play the cards you're dealt.

I have no idea what my Infusion weighs, it could be light it could be heavy, nothing I can do about it now. The nut on the tiller matters first, 5lbs of extra platform weight isn't going to hurt you unless you are playing the game at the very very top. If you think otherwise you are just looking for an excuse.
Posted By: bacho

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram

Platform weight matters Sam, ask yourself do you want a heavy F18 or one that is close to or at min weight? Why did Jill deaply discount the heavy C2's? Weight doesn't matter and handicap racing works... they call that a twofer.


Of course those boats would be discounted, but that doesn't mean they would slow the average sailor down one bit.

I would really like to get my hands on one of those boats.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 08:29 PM

Quote
Then a little history on the changes continually made to it clearly show politics behind the scenes.


OK... why don't you tell us the consipiracy theory de jour!

Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/06/13 09:33 PM

Can't... stop...looking... My eyes! My eyes!

Since there is clearly no hope of stopping this train, can anyone tell me why Portsmouth uses time on time, while PHRF uses time on distance? I need pros and cons of each. Data tables and graphs would really help too.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/07/13 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
Can't... stop...looking... My eyes! My eyes!

Since there is clearly no hope of stopping this train, can anyone tell me why Portsmouth uses time on time, while PHRF uses time on distance? I need pros and cons of each. Data tables and graphs would really help too.

Mike


PHRF actually has formulas for both time on time and time on distance. My club uses time on time for PHRF.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/07/13 01:56 AM

PHRF Time on distance.... is default. People understand secs per mile... They know they their rating and the course distance and can figure the result in their head.

PHRF Time on time is used where current is a big factor on the course.... The rating is for the boat.. if the magic carpet is moving all boats at 1 knott extra....the rating is not accurate..
Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/07/13 02:09 AM

Obviously, you guys completely missed the dripping sarcasm in my last post...

Mike
Posted By: TylerH

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/16/13 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Originally Posted by mini
I heard some reports from a couple of teams who went to the Olympic training camp in Miami. A few youth teams on F16 went and sailed with some of the Olympic 17 teams. While the boat is new and there was not a lot of head to head time, the 16s appeared faster or at least as fast, especially downwind in the conditions where they were lining up together.

I highly doubt that, from what I saw the N17s are very fast downwind especially in light to moderate conditions (which I'm guessing Miami has).

When the breeze was light the Vipers were killing the 17's around the course, The moderate stuff is when it was even, Joseph and I got a chance to both get on the 17s when the breeze had picked up and that is when they excelled, leaving most of the F16's in the dust.

Then again, we were doing stadium racing...Shifty breeze going anywhere from 5-18 knots.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/16/13 11:45 AM

The 17s where on pace during the pre Texel course racing taking 2nd and 3rd.
http://www.roundtexel.com/results.a...ict.nl/IIS/finishlists/tdo2013/index.htm I
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/18/13 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
Of course those boats would be discounted, but that doesn't mean they would slow the average sailor down one bit.

I would really like to get my hands on one of those boats.


In one sentence you say "duh, they are heavy of course they should be discounted". You say a heavy boat won't slow down an average sailor I disagree, a heavy boat will slow them down exactly the same amount as it would an expert sailor.

I think your definition of an average sailor differs from mine a great deal. Do you think all the current heavy boat owners will disclose that their boat is heavy when they go to sell it? If not, why not?
Posted By: bacho

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/18/13 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram


In one sentence you say "duh, they are heavy of course they should be discounted". You say a heavy boat won't slow down an average sailor I disagree, a heavy boat will slow them down exactly the same amount as it would an expert sailor.

I think your definition of an average sailor differs from mine a great deal. Do you think all the current heavy boat owners will disclose that their boat is heavy when they go to sell it? If not, why not?



Anyone that buys anything new wants it to be perfect, or they want a discount. I am sure that even you can understand that.

Do you notice the boat speed difference with a few water bottles aboard?

Seller disclosure, that all depends on many things. Who is buying or selling, how old the boat is at that point and such. Do you weigh 2nd hand boats before making a purchase?
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/18/13 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by David Ingram


In one sentence you say "duh, they are heavy of course they should be discounted". You say a heavy boat won't slow down an average sailor I disagree, a heavy boat will slow them down exactly the same amount as it would an expert sailor.

I think your definition of an average sailor differs from mine a great deal. Do you think all the current heavy boat owners will disclose that their boat is heavy when they go to sell it? If not, why not?



Anyone that buys anything new wants it to be perfect, or they want a discount. I am sure that even you can understand that.

Do you notice the boat speed difference with a few water bottles aboard?

Seller disclosure, that all depends on many things. Who is buying or selling, how old the boat is at that point and such. Do you weigh 2nd hand boats before making a purchase?


I do ask what a boat I'm buying weighs (if it's in a weight limited class) or I try to find a way to weigh it before purchase. I'm not going to sweat a pound or two - but 10 pounds means I may have to take a hard look at the size of my waistline.
Posted By: bacho

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/18/13 05:00 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall the C2s in question to be 3-4lbs over.
Posted By: dr5e14w

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/19/13 08:00 AM

If I understand it correctly,the hulls being discussed are being replaced
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/19/13 01:02 PM

Correct.
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/19/13 02:39 PM

Just received my new hull and my boat is now a pound under! Yay! Considering we sail at 385 it's nice to have a light boat but that being said we sailed worlds, catacup and several other events and it didn't bother me that the hull was 11 pounds heavy. And ahpc did the right thing by replacing our hull at no cost to me.
Rod Waterhouse had a heavy boat at worlds and he won a race. I don't know who else had heavy boats.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/19/13 05:09 PM

Just something to consider: if we want manufacturers to keep building these things, maybe we should stop doing things like taking away all hope of profit by demanding hulls be replaced over a few pounds, or refusing to buy them, especially if there is data that shows it doesn't matter on the race course. I doubt they sell enough of these to sustain that for very long.

Mike
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/19/13 05:19 PM

Sorry but don't agree, sailing a boat which is 10-15kg heavier than the competition does matter.
Manufacturers need to get quality under control and not ship flawed products in the first place, weighing a hull before shipping can't be too hard right?
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/19/13 05:26 PM

I disagree, especially in the case of the F18 where the weight limit is very high and the construction technique is low tech. The manufacturers know the weight limits of the class, so I think as a consumer it is reasonable for me to want my $25,000 toy to be on weight. The good news with a formula class is that there are options (Nacra, AHPC, Cirrus, PSA, Hobie, Edge, Phantom for the 18) and if one manufacturer fails to meet the standard of the class then racers will vote with their checkbooks, and they should!

Does a couple pounds on a 400 pound boat make a performance difference? Maybe not, but if the manufacturer can't get that right it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the boat's build quality. If you start letting quality slide because the manufacturer is doing a service to us sailors by building boats, it seems like a slippery slope to a poor product (maybe a Laser Performance built Laser or V15 is a good example).
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/19/13 06:07 PM

The struggle for a manufacturer to 'build to Class weight' is tough, but the Lightning Class is a good example along with the Thistle Class. It is doable. Hobie keeps the standard by measuring boats. By weighing boats at the owner level, year to year checks on manufactured weight for those production lines can be maintained with the added drama of owner/factory interaction at their sanctioned regattas.

Formula boats are a different story - Do the new Falcon F 16s weigh the same as a NACRA F 16? The Viper is close to the middle, I believe.

The NACRA 17s, the Oly athletes will use in 2016 may weigh less than the current (2013) production line due to advances in composites and an impulse in production. A jag in global economy may even become the driving force down the road.

Let's hope NACRA strives to maintain quality control and to build the N 17 with less resin.

Best wishes to Tom and Fred Roland, wherever you might be...
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/19/13 07:19 PM

Is not the Nacra 17 build locked in for the next 4 years, i.e there is a weight for the boat and that is it?? I don't see how the fleet provided for the 2016 games can be any different than the boats the sailors are using. Oh wait it's a class controlled by Nacra.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/19/13 07:21 PM

Bert,
you can't compare these three classes this way. These are apples, oranges and pears.... They are all fruit but that is about it.

The F18's specifically choose that build weight because it was doable, low tech and they did not want a development push on weight and materials. Sailors are right to demand a boat that measures under the class weight and needs correcting to be legal....(that is part of the class's apeal)

The F16 class rule is similar but the founders wanted more development and lower production weights (to gain some market share from the F18 class)... the three builders you mention all take a different route to their market solution ... This is a function of their F16 design rule and core philosophy. The racers in the class don't care and declare all solutions equal and one up and two up flavors equal as well... (whatever!!) You can't demand an F16 measure into a non existent standard as a consumer.

(The measurement rating systems just measure each boat and issue a unique rating for specific build eg Viper ... The default F16 rating would be for the lightest boat allowed by their rule...)

The N17 class is SMOD and ISAF will go NUTS if Nacra changes the platform build over it's Olympic cycle... They had enough of the Tornado sailors working around the Tornado One design rule to game the system. You can't even drill a hole in the N17 platform.. If the N17s differ in 2 years... There will be hell to pay.. (Now, new boats could well be stiffer then used boats and that should drive the elite to stay with new boats)

If you are a 20 to 40 year old sailor looking at one of these three classes.. You have clear choices. Which one(s) survives for 20 more years like the Thistle or Lightning or Hobie 16.. ... Hmmm. YMMV
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/19/13 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Just something to consider: if we want manufacturers to keep building these things, maybe we should stop doing things like taking away all hope of profit by demanding hulls be replaced over a few pounds, or refusing to buy them, especially if there is data that shows it doesn't matter on the race course. I doubt they sell enough of these to sustain that for very long.

Mike


Yeah, I see your point - but if I'm plopping $20k+ down a new boat where the class minimum weight is an obvious expectation and it isn't made, I'm not going to be very happy with my purchase or the manufacturer. They would lose a lot of subsequent business if people knew that their boats may not be at minimum weight.

This also happened to a major A-cat manufacturer recently...and let me tell you, those guys aren't happy when they spend $25k on a boat (before buying a mast or sail) and it's 6% over minimum weight.

Minimum weight is part of the expectation in these classes. You could argue that the sailors hurt the manufacturer with their demands but you could also argue that their sales are going to go flat if they can't keep their platform weight at or slightly under the minimums.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/19/13 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Just something to consider: if we want manufacturers to keep building these things, maybe we should stop doing things like taking away all hope of profit by demanding hulls be replaced over a few pounds, or refusing to buy them, especially if there is data that shows it doesn't matter on the race course. I doubt they sell enough of these to sustain that for very long.

Mike


Building an F18 at min weight can be done and can be done at a profit. I got off my Infusion because it was heavy (yes I disclosed plus it was on the cert) and got a C2 because they had (at the time) a very strong reputation of coming in right on the money plus the C2 was available and the Mk II wasn't. Jill and AHPC where very smart in how they dealt with the heavy boats, has any of the other provider done that? Could be the reason why the C2 appears to have taken over the US F18 fleet. So Mike, doing it the right way makes money too!
Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/21/13 02:47 AM

You guys make some excellent points (that I happen to agree with), but the phrase "winning the battle but losing the war" comes to mind.

Mike
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/21/13 06:18 AM

Not sure what you by "the war", you mean the survival of the builders?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/21/13 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
You guys make some excellent points (that I happen to agree with), but the phrase "winning the battle but losing the war" comes to mind.

Mike


Mike, this is one of the biggest reasons why the formula/box has done as well as it has...choices. Of course a monopoly (SMOD) would be great for the builder but not so much for the sailor/consumer. Maybe the big players will bail but that doesn't appear to have hurt the A-class one bit. I'm not worried, formula will be just fine.
Posted By: bacho

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/21/13 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
You guys make some excellent points (that I happen to agree with), but the phrase "winning the battle but losing the war" comes to mind.

Mike



Replacing hulls is cheaper than losing sales due to a lack in confidence. While I can see the idea, demanding that boats be built to advertised specs is not asking too much.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/21/13 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by brucat
You guys make some excellent points (that I happen to agree with), but the phrase "winning the battle but losing the war" comes to mind.

Mike


Mike, this is one of the biggest reasons why the formula/box has done as well as it has...choices. Of course a monopoly (SMOD) would be great for the builder but not so much for the sailor/consumer. Maybe the big players will bail but that doesn't appear to have hurt the A-class one bit. I'm not worried, formula will be just fine.


"Be just fine" is the understatement of the decade. SMOD is a money grab, pure and simple, with no redeeming factors that can't be found in a normal O.D. class, and many more negatives.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/21/13 03:30 PM

Once again... Dave gets it wrong (grin)
In defense of SMOD!

There are advantages to SMOD.

A rec sailor could care less if their boat is Formula or SMOD.... All they care about is warranty and replacement parts cost and availability. So... they are paying the builder for his reputation and the dealers reputation and service. The fact that there are lots of xxx's at the club or sailing on the lake computes to the rec sailor as ... "this must be a good boat. everybody seems to get one."

A racer buys the boat in a SMOD class for the same reasons as the rec sailor. In addition, You place a huge value in having LOTS OF Boats in the class who go racing.. You are ALSO buying the manufacturers support for the racing game. You place a HIGH VALUE on the boats all weighing the same... you place a HIGH VALUE on the next sail that you purchase is the same as your old one.... AND your competitor gets the exact same gear that you have. So, you are willing to pay a premium for the SMOD race class on the initial boat and the replacement bits.

You are also paying for service beyond the warranty... Things like a gear wagon at a big regional event. Charter boats for Nationals or Worlds. Paid staff who organize the volunteers to make the major events happen.

When the sailing numbers cratered... the business and racing model had to change and builders spend less money on racing support and now support racing in different ways... Lots of long time racers have very bitter experiences with this transition. The Laser class is in chaos with crap boats built over the last couple of years and now a huge legal crisis that could get the boat kicked out of the Olympics in September. You now have a Torch boat which is identical to a Laser with an upside down class symbol built by the original builder. SMOD that has gone really badly!!!

To make any of these models work.. You need a builder who turns out a quality product year after year and supports it. You need racers who have a clear idea what the class is about and show up for the regional and /or national/international schedule

So, in 2012, ISAF insisted on a SMOD for the Olympic mixed multihull class so that they (and the builder) had control of the equipment used for the racing class... just like the ol days. Why? because they believe that it is easier to control the builder then the sailors who continually try to beat the rules (cheat in ISAF's view) to get an edge (see US headsail for China)

So, We now get to choose ... Does the SMOD or Formula support the kind of racing that you want to do.
YMMV

The critical thing is to understand what you want and how much you are willing to pay for your game... keeping in mind that your fun completely depends on a bunch of other racers choosing the exact same thing that you do. The N17 class has it made in this respect.. The Olympic Gold Medal makes it clear what the class is about and racers who join the class know the costs to play and what the class is about.

IMO... I think the Hobie 16 class (SMOD) and the F18 class (Formula) get it right and are good deals for cat sailors!
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/21/13 03:49 PM

Mark,
O.D. and SMOD are not the same and you don't even mention O.D. in your ramblings. It's not an either/or proposition.
Olympic classes are so far removed from normal sailing it's almost irrelevant.Nobody HAS to choose anything. You've been preaching the doom and gloom for going on 2 decades now.

p.s. "To make any of these models work.. You need a builder who turns out a quality product year after year and supports it."
Good luck with that. Sure ain't Nacra. N-20 is a great example of the unmitigated failure that is SMOD.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/21/13 05:16 PM

Todd

Your problem with SMOD is that you don't see any leverage on the builder.... The I will vote with my feet to another builder if you screw me and or the class is not available. There is a time honored solution.... Form a strong class association and own the rights to the design and license it back to the builder.

Laser has three builders and so by usual definitions is OD.. But See their problems. The class does not own the design. Kirby owned the rights until he sold them and then things took a turn south with one of the builders choosing to screw everyone. So... this OD model is blowing up in front of our eyes.

If the builder goes sideways or looses interest.... SMOD or OD won't matter.

So, I think the key is to make sure that the Class Association owns the rights to the build and design... Then they can go find another builder (SM) If the sailors can't form that strong class assn.... they are taking a chance... The F18 class is strong and owns the class rule and the builders buy into it and the class approves the builds.

The Hobie 16 class does not own the design but they keep chugging along... The strong class association keeps the builder happy and vice versa so it can work as designed.

I did not own a Nacra 20... never liked that boats lines. I never thought the telephone pole like omohundru carbon mast made sense on that boat. However, the failure of the OD class was in my view at least as much a fault of the owners who could not and still can not agree on what the class should have been about.
So...I would say... the builder and the sailors screwed up the Inter 20, Nacra 20 whatever class. SMOD was only part of that story.


Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/21/13 06:04 PM

I don't want to buy garbage from a builder with no support. But, I also don't want to drive the builders out of the market over small variances that have no real negative outcome (other than perception, which is their long-term problem).

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/21/13 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
I don't want to buy garbage from a builder with no support. But, I also don't want to drive the builders out of the market over small variances that have no real negative outcome (other than perception, which is their long-term problem).

Mike


I don't see the weight of a boat platform any difference than, say, fuel mileage on a new car. If it was sold with a particular specification and that specification isn't met, it's a problem. It's not hard to build an F18 at minimum weight. In fact, the rather heavy minimum weight was established so it was very easy to build a durable boat within that limit with fiberglass. The manufacturers, in turn, try to include as much reinforcement as possible to make their boats as stiff and strong as possible to just slide in under the minimum. The only time this is a problem is if they get it wrong because they pushed the limits. The boat measuring at, or slightly under, weight is a specification that I would expect the boat to meet.

It's much better than some of the other classes of boat where the same boat may weigh 20 or 40 lbs different from year to year (those manufactures are lucky that weighing boats wasn't a regular occurrence)...but I still expect it to be at or below that specified weight.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/21/13 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Mark,
O.D. and SMOD are not the same and you don't even mention O.D. in your ramblings. It's not an either/or proposition.
Olympic classes are so far removed from normal sailing it's almost irrelevant.Nobody HAS to choose anything. You've been preaching the doom and gloom for going on 2 decades now.

p.s. "To make any of these models work.. You need a builder who turns out a quality product year after year and supports it."
Good luck with that. Sure ain't Nacra. N-20 is a great example of the unmitigated failure that is SMOD.


+1. Yes the N20 class association as a whole had issues but really not that many. Our biggest compliant was parts support from Nacra (that hasn't changed) and sail variance from the loft-similar to Jakes post about weight, with no independent sail measurement rule no one was able to check the sail conformed to the non-existent class rules. Also, Nacra had very little interest in running manufacturer sponsored events (unlike the Hobie 16). Followed by the F18's beating the N20's at the distance race game, primarily because the F18's had full blown pros on board, the class started loosing members and fell flat when the major East Coast distance race was cancelled.

The F18 works because the sailors have control over everything, including the events, i.e the way sailing ought to be. From what I know of the H16 things are very similar with the class taking the lead and Hobie being supportive of their events.

Nacra may do a better job this time around with the Nacra 17, but I know my faith is lost. For example, they specify Nacra parts on the rigging guide (http://www.nacra17class.com/rigging-part-list/), I'm sure it's ISAF mandated but some of it is just silly; I should be able to use whatever main halyard ring I want that doesn't affect speed one bit, but it does if I can't get a ring in the first place to go sailing.

Finally, I don't see the fleet size growing stateside to make it worthwhile for the average sailor. The same teams are racing in the F18 fleet so why would I buy a Nacra 17? Yes it's faster, we're probably better suited to it, but there are ZERO used boats available and I'm not a trust fund kid.

P.S-At least the 17's have a set of up to date class rules, a real website, and an extremely useful rigging guide. Hopefully they keep the momentum post 2016.
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/21/13 09:40 PM

Maybe we can get a worthy sample of the N 17s in Florida weighed during the 2013 NACRA North Americans on Pensacola Bay, October 10 - 14.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/23/13 10:15 PM

Has Nacra started dispatching carbon masts yet or are they still supplying ali rigs?
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/24/13 04:45 AM

Carbon masts are being delivered at the Worlds.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/24/13 05:23 AM

God I hope they're sorted, can you imagine **** that would go down if they were exploding at the worlds.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/24/13 06:07 AM

[quote=samc99us
Finally, I don't see the fleet size growing stateside to make it worthwhile for the average sailor. The same teams are racing in the F18 fleet so why would I buy a Nacra 17? Yes it's faster, we're probably better suited to it, but there are ZERO used boats available and I'm not a trust fund kid.

P.S-At least the 17's have a set of up to date class rules, a real website, and an extremely useful rigging guide. Hopefully they keep the momentum post 2016. [/quote]

You have contradicted yourself a bit there.

You complain that every boat has to be the same, down to the last shackle. then say that you are not a trust fund.

Lets say that you go out and buy a new F18 AND a new N17 today. They would both be expensive but able to compete at the front of the fleet.
In 3 years time you decide to get a boat with a cooker, beds and toilet so decide to sell your beach cat fleet. Which of the two boats will still be competitive? which will have depreciated more?
there will always be more F18s on the market because their front of the fleet time is less

the N17 costs more, but is better value for money
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/24/13 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Scarecrow
God I hope they're sorted, can you imagine **** that would go down if they were exploding at the worlds.


Hall Spars - they went through a number of iterations for testing before production. I expect they'll be sound.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/24/13 02:17 PM

Are they using them at the Worlds?
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/24/13 02:21 PM

I don't know, Tony - I just heard the teams were taking delivery at Worlds. I would NOT want to use one for the first time at Worlds (even if everyone else was, too) if all my training and events had been with the aluminum stick... surely it is going to behave differently...
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/24/13 04:29 PM

Paul,

I think your argument only works if you have a boat with a 10 year competitive life span stucturally.... Eg Marstron Tornado's...

Fiberglass boats go soft unless you design and build to delay this eventuality. eg lasers and most production cats are softer after three years...

IMO, the depreciation expected is indendent of the class be it SMOD, OD or formula.

I think the major argument for SMOD is that ... no matter what... the gear is about the same... AND you pay that premium for the perception of a level playing field and NOT because the boat hold's it value better.

In your comparison... IF the N17 fleet growth in numbers were so brillliant that boats were hard to come by... Yes, the depreciation would be less. I don't see that in the cards.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/24/13 04:43 PM

Quote

You have contradicted yourself a bit there.

You complain that every boat has to be the same, down to the last shackle. then say that you are not a trust fund.

Lets say that you go out and buy a new F18 AND a new N17 today. They would both be expensive but able to compete at the front of the fleet.
In 3 years time you decide to get a boat with a cooker, beds and toilet so decide to sell your beach cat fleet. Which of the two boats will still be competitive? which will have depreciated more?
there will always be more F18s on the market because their front of the fleet time is less

the N17 costs more, but is better value for money


Lots of variables there, but I disagree with your market assessment. How can a used boat in a class that barely exists, caters to mixed teams (how many women vs. men sailors do you have at your club?) and has all the pitfalls of the Olympic cycle to contend with have higher resale value than the largest high performance beach cat fleet globally where older boats have proven competitive at the front of the fleet? Also, used boats in the N17 class are going to be run hard, and the target market cares about platform stiffness. I.e, who are you going to sell your used boat to?
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/24/13 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
I don't know, Tony - I just heard the teams were taking delivery at Worlds. I would NOT want to use one for the first time at Worlds (even if everyone else was, too) if all my training and events had been with the aluminum stick... surely it is going to behave differently...


I'm not an expert here and agree with the premise of your argument but surely the carbon mast is going to be lighter, and Hall have properly optimized the section for the sail cut of the N17 Performance Sails...in which case the teams that get delivery of their sections at Worlds, have a day or 2 to train would surely be faster no?? Decreased pitching moment upwind...

My personal concern at such a high level event would be experiencing a breakage in a race with the new carbon stick. However, Hall has an excellent reputation overall and I'd be willing to put my point on the line if I knew the carbon stick was faster.

I guess the better question is how is Nacra/ISAF/class policing this?
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/24/13 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
Originally Posted by John Williams
I don't know, Tony - I just heard the teams were taking delivery at Worlds. I would NOT want to use one for the first time at Worlds (even if everyone else was, too) if all my training and events had been with the aluminum stick... surely it is going to behave differently...


I'm not an expert here and agree with the premise of your argument but surely the carbon mast is going to be lighter, and Hall have properly optimized the section for the sail cut of the N17 Performance Sails...in which case the teams that get delivery of their sections at Worlds, have a day or 2 to train would surely be faster no?? Decreased pitching moment upwind...

My personal concern at such a high level event would be experiencing a breakage in a race with the new carbon stick. However, Hall has an excellent reputation overall and I'd be willing to put my point on the line if I knew the carbon stick was faster.

I guess the better question is how is Nacra/ISAF/class policing this?


Well...the carbon mast was the original mast but they had issues with them breaking. Nacra went to the aluminum mast as a temporary fix.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/24/13 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
Quote

You have contradicted yourself a bit there.

You complain that every boat has to be the same, down to the last shackle. then say that you are not a trust fund.

Lets say that you go out and buy a new F18 AND a new N17 today. They would both be expensive but able to compete at the front of the fleet.
In 3 years time you decide to get a boat with a cooker, beds and toilet so decide to sell your beach cat fleet. Which of the two boats will still be competitive? which will have depreciated more?
there will always be more F18s on the market because their front of the fleet time is less

the N17 costs more, but is better value for money


Lots of variables there, but I disagree with your market assessment. How can a used boat in a class that barely exists, caters to mixed teams (how many women vs. men sailors do you have at your club?) and has all the pitfalls of the Olympic cycle to contend with have higher resale value than the largest high performance beach cat fleet globally where older boats have proven competitive at the front of the fleet? Also, used boats in the N17 class are going to be run hard, and the target market cares about platform stiffness. I.e, who are you going to sell your used boat to?


You don't have to be a mixed team to sail the N17 at club level. There are only about3 or 4 boats in each country that HAVE to be mixed. The market for this boat is going to open up.

Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/24/13 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Originally Posted by samc99us
Quote

You have contradicted yourself a bit there.

You complain that every boat has to be the same, down to the last shackle. then say that you are not a trust fund.

Lets say that you go out and buy a new F18 AND a new N17 today. They would both be expensive but able to compete at the front of the fleet.
In 3 years time you decide to get a boat with a cooker, beds and toilet so decide to sell your beach cat fleet. Which of the two boats will still be competitive? which will have depreciated more?
there will always be more F18s on the market because their front of the fleet time is less

the N17 costs more, but is better value for money


Lots of variables there, but I disagree with your market assessment. How can a used boat in a class that barely exists, caters to mixed teams (how many women vs. men sailors do you have at your club?) and has all the pitfalls of the Olympic cycle to contend with have higher resale value than the largest high performance beach cat fleet globally where older boats have proven competitive at the front of the fleet? Also, used boats in the N17 class are going to be run hard, and the target market cares about platform stiffness. I.e, who are you going to sell your used boat to?


You don't have to be a mixed team to sail the N17 at club level. There are only about3 or 4 boats in each country that HAVE to be mixed. The market for this boat is going to open up.



I think we are speaking from quite opposite vantage points. You have a lot more active beach cat classes in the U.K than in the U.S. At my local club level they're just now starting to see the F18 can in fact perform, but most everyone is racing a 10+ year old N20 save the A-Cat guys (who travel) and F16 sailors (who have newer boats because, well, it's a F16).

I would be the target market for a Nacra 17; more powered up than a F18, lighter (easier to move on beach), curved foils for foil assist in the nasty, suits our crew weight perfectly etc., looks like a blast to sail etc. I can't afford a $30K+ toy that brings marginal benefit over my boat and has no active fleet to speak of. Maybe I'm amongst the minority who is thinking 4 years from now I don't want to be stranded when Nacra dumps the N17 for the N17 MK. 2 full flying 10' wide beast.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/24/13 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
Maybe I'm amongst the minority who is thinking 4 years from now I don't want to be stranded when Nacra dumps the N17 for the N17 MK. 2 full flying 10' wide beast.


I am to presume there is no "recreational sailing" quality to this boat, correct? I.E. you'd only sail this thing in races...?
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/24/13 09:10 PM

You can sail any boat you want for recreation Jay...
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Nacra 17's - 06/24/13 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
I'm not an expert here and agree with the premise of your argument but surely the carbon mast is going to be lighter, and Hall have properly optimized the section for the sail cut of the N17 Performance Sails...in which case the teams that get delivery of their sections at Worlds, have a day or 2 to train would surely be faster no?? Decreased pitching moment upwind...


Personally, I try to stick to the ideal of not introducing anything new at a Nationals or above... the mast is a pretty big change, and surely sheets differently. I don't want to be learning something new - my two or three days on the water before a Nationals or Worlds is to make sure everything is working on the boat, and getting a good look at the race area conditions. Of course, sometimes I've had to break that personal guideline - at the F18 Worlds in Long Beach, I was on a completely new platform, without even other people's experience or a tuning guide to work with. I was grateful for the opportunity, but we didn't do the boat justice at all - too much to learn, and the wrong time to be learning. At least for me - obviously, some sailors can hit stride right out of the gate. My neural pathways are too calcified.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/25/13 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
You can sail any boat you want for recreation Jay...


Sure, but would you want an N17 with all its high-tech gizmos and narrow performance groove for recreational sailing?

Stuff built strictly for speed (IMHO) seems to take some of the fun (read: ease) out of recreational sailing.

Now that I'm down in the 175-180# range, maybe I can fit on your teensy boats again... If I can find a scrawney driver...

But I will have to put a swim noodle on the boom. Packing 6'1" of me under a deck sweeping boom in a chinese gybe gets a little tricky (gotta work on my yoga pretzel moves). As Seth knows, it doesn't take much for me to sweep a driver off the back of a boat...
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17's In defense of SMOD - 06/25/13 02:16 PM

Major differences between N17 and F18 are the curved foils and the carbon rig. Like any high performance boat the issue is when the breeze builds, tough to sail any of these without good crew.

If I'm stuck without a crew for a Florida event I'll let you know
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