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life jackets

Posted By: Pirate

life jackets - 06/08/13 05:40 AM

its way past time to replace my tired old jacket, years of sailing / storage and abuse in both cases has certainly taken its toll
blush

simple..... search eBay etc etc for a new one..... smile

not so easy .... what type do I need these days crazy


so what are you using and where did you get it from

Kingy
Posted By: bacho

Re: life jackets - 06/08/13 11:31 AM

I'm using the Zhik pfd. I really like them.
Posted By: Jake

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 10:51 AM

Ill put out a second for the Zhik PFD. The range of motion it's it is really good and it is not as thick as some are on the back which makes it easier to get under the boom. I've about worn one out and am on my second one. I've found it superior to most of the kayaking vests when kayaking too.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 11:49 AM

Any experience with Zhik wetsuits?
Are they worth the high price in terms of durability/quality?
Posted By: carlbohannon

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 01:55 PM

The hybrid neoprene and fleece is worth the price. I replaced a custom 4 mm spring suit with one. The hybrid is a lot more comfortable and is warmer too. If fact I have had a issue with it being too warm. This year I wore a thin windproof fleeces instead of a dry top, on marginal days, and it was about right.

Having your new wetsuit arrive in a 8.5 by 11 envelope, is a shock. but it does let you know, there is something different. It is not all hype.

Posted By: brucat

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 03:12 PM

Has Zhik gotten around to getting USCG approval for their PFDs? Took Gill forever too.

Mike
Posted By: samc99us

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 05:57 PM

I have a pretty old Extrasport which I love, fortunately it has held up great, read on to find out why...

We've been shopping for life jackets for the new helm who is used to sailing college dinghy's, i.e non-trapeze boats. Her old life jacket got thrown out (long story), hence the shopping. Basically none of the USCG approved life jackets fit the bill for a trapeze boat. They all have a ton of padding, especially on the front side that can interfere with the trapeze hook. Apparently the rules were changed recently and the new USCG life jackets have more padding. Like twice as much as my USCG approved Extrasport. Personally I feel these have reduced safety in our particular sport, as mobility and ability to swim out from underneath a capsized boat are reduced.

The Zhik would work great as on a trapeze boat, and is classified as a buoyancy aide. Reading this article it hasn't been an issue in the protest room: http://www.sailingworld.com/gear/the-battle-for-a-better-pfd
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 06:33 PM

Protesting someone for wearing a CE certified life jacket would be very unsportsmanlike.
I've just bought a last year's model Magic Marine PFD (got a 50% discount), its very comfortable and doesn't interfere with both trapeze and the occasional chicken wire:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Protesting someone for wearing a CE certified life jacket would be very unsportsmanlike.


Absolutely not true. We don't get to pick and choose what rules to enforce or not enforce. Personally, I wear a CE jacket, but I understand the risks associated with it. If someone protests me for it, I'll accept the consequences and move on. However, I will not protest someone for wearing one. That is probably more unsportsmanlike than protesting someone for wearing one because I have chosen to ignore a rule.....twice. Once by wearing the CE jacket, and once by opting to not protest someone that I know is breaking a rule.
Posted By: tback

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 07:04 PM

Could we include a waiver in the SI's (much like we do for a one turn penalty instead of two for a foul).

"CE certified or USCG approved life jackets are permited." Then you could sleep at night knowing that you didn't face a conundrum smile
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by tback
Could we include a waiver in the SI's (much like we do for a one turn penalty instead of two for a foul).

"CE certified or USCG approved life jackets are permited." Then you could sleep at night knowing that you didn't face a conundrum smile


Not sure if you can do that.....

Rule 40 Change rule 40 title to: PERSONAL FLOTATION DEVICES; LIFE-SAVING EQUIPMENT
After rule 40 add
US Sailing prescribes that every boat shall carry life-saving equipment conforming to
government regulations that apply in the racing area. Go to
ussailing.org/racingrules/documents and click the ‘PFD’ link for more information.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by tback
Could we include a waiver in the SI's (much like we do for a one turn penalty instead of two for a foul).



Nope, Can't get around this rule because it's set by USCG. That's on the list of rules that can't be changed in the SI's because it's the law of the land.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by tback
Could we include a waiver in the SI's (much like we do for a one turn penalty instead of two for a foul).

"CE certified or USCG approved life jackets are permited." Then you could sleep at night knowing that you didn't face a conundrum smile


Nope, Rule 40 cannot be modified by the SI (rule 88.2). There is a way around it per rule 88.2.

US Sailing prescribes that sailing instructions shall not change or delete rule 61.4, Appendix R, or its prescriptions to rules 40, 67, 70.5(a) or 76.1. However, for an international event the prescription to rule 40 may be deleted.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 07:55 PM

Very interesting on the rules nuances.

Thanks Dave for pointing out the events where protests are more likely are also the larger ones that attract international teams. Does that make them an international event? I.e how is that defined?
Posted By: tback

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
However, for an international event the prescription to rule 40 may be deleted.[/i]


Let's see ... hmmm .... our next regatta is the International Summer Sizzler held in Daytona Beach June 22-23.

No Problem.

Oh, BTW, CE AND USCG life jackets approved.
Posted By: brucat

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 08:24 PM

OK, from that highly subjective piece of "jourlanism" I learned that Zhik is trying to get approval.

With all of the hoopla after recent tragedies involving trapeze boats, you'd think the agencies would be looking to improve this.

Of course, if you're knocked out, you're going to wish you were wearing the right vest.

Mike
Posted By: tback

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by brucat

Of course, if you're knocked out, you're going to wish you were wearing the right vest.

Mike


And a helmet
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
Very interesting on the rules nuances.

Thanks Dave for pointing out the events where protests are more likely are also the larger ones that attract international teams. Does that make them an international event? I.e how is that defined?


The best I can do at the moment is:

G1.1 (b)

at all international events, except when the boats are provided to all competitors, national letters denoting her national authority from the table below. For the purposes of this rule, inetnational events are ISAF events, world and contentinental championships, and events described as international events in their notices of race and sailing instructions;
Posted By: samc99us

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 09:05 PM

Hmm, so the North American Championships are international right? Considering more Canadians (better bring the bacon!) are currently registered than U.S sailors (I know, I'll get on that in a month or 2).

Here's my thing, if you get knocked unconscious, you're pretty hosed until someone gets to you, or you happen to not be under the boat (fat chance, read the latest accident reports). In these cases, a buoyancy aide should provide enough floatation to keep your head near the waters surface. No Type III PFD is designed to keep your mouth clear of the water, like a Type I that you might be wearing 20+ miles offshore on a 30+' vessel in the same rough conditions you'd get trapped under your beach cat in...
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
Hmm, so the North American Championships are international right? Considering more Canadians (better bring the bacon!) are currently registered than U.S sailors (I know, I'll get on that in a month or 2).


Yes, from the get go it's been an international event. It's called The America's Chapionship this year.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 10:27 PM

As Mike mentioned, there are some ways around the US Sailing requirement - an International Event which is defined in the ISAF Regulations as, "an event open to entries other than those from the national authority of the venue or any event organized in more than one country." If you expect competitors from Canada or Puerto Rico (we're talking an event in North America), the following language needs to be in the NOR under the "rules" section:

Quote
This is an international event, therefore, in accordance with the US Sailing prescription to RRS 88.2, the US Sailing prescription to RRS 40 is deleted.


But you're not done yet. Some class rules (Hobie Class) also require PFDs to be approved in the country of origin or jurisdiction - which means USCG in the US. So in addition to the above statement (which gets repeated in the SIs), you need the following language in the "Protests" section of the SIs:
Quote
Breaches of IHCA class rule 8.1 (with respect to the country of certification only) will not be grounds for a protest or a request for redress by a boat. This changes RRS 60.1. Penalties for these breaches may be less than disqualification if the PC so decides. The scoring abbreviation for a discretionary penalty imposed under this instruction will be DPI.

Often, the judges will have an issue with this, but since the RC drafts the SIs (not the judges), they will have to live with it - and you need to convince them to stay out of the issue (because they can still protest a boat). I did it with Means, and even he (Mr. Risk Management) was OK with it.

Of course, if you get pulled over for an inspection by the USCG and don't have a USCG approved PFD, you're going to get a ticket, no matter what the SIs say. One way around (most) everything is to wear what you like and stash a USCG PFD somewhere on the boat where it's out of the way.

Back to the original OP's question, though - there are some unique requirements in Australia (did ya notice where he's from?) that may exclude a some of our favorite vests, including that they be a bright color (red).
Posted By: brucat

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 10:48 PM

Unless you're talking about a different Mike, it wasn't me that mentioned the work-arounds, because I don't believe in them.

I personally think that US Sailing should not be in the business of doing anything but supporting whatever the current USCG regs require, period. The USCG reg already handles sailors from outside of the country, there is absolutely no reason to make additional changes (such as deleting the prescription). They should simply direct sailors to the reg in question.

I think all of these changes make the entire thing more difficult for people to accept, and OAs to enforce.

Don't take this as a vote for PFDs that suck. I'd rather see efforts be made to work with the USCG to fix this, as they are the actual authority in this area.

Mike
Posted By: John Williams

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 10:58 PM

I have been present when the RC was compelled by a competitor to file protest on a sailor wearing a CE vest. The RC thought they had it covered by making that rule non-protestable by a competitor. They didn't. The RC protested within the time limit on the last day and it was upheld. Because the SIs indicated that the penalty could be something other than a DSQ, the sailor received a percentage penalty that robbed her of the 1st place position at the regatta, rewarding the sailor who made the issue who had been in 2nd.

Like Karl said, you have to accept the possible outcome if you choose to break a rule. I wear a Zhik PFD to all events except the Alter Cup. I know what I could be in for. I'm pretty sure that the Alter Cup is the only event where people will do just about anything, including protesting a PFD to win.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 11:22 PM

What's the problem with sticking a USCG certified inflatable vest or cheap orange horseshoe vest in the hull to cover your bases and wear your CE vest. That meets USCG regs. Wearing it is usually a race rule not a coast guard rule, unless your under age (13?).

edit: Just saw Matt already addressed this.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: life jackets - 06/10/13 11:59 PM

According to Mike Krantz the process to be CG approved is lengthy, meticulous and EXPENSIVE. maybe he'll explain it here.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 12:22 AM

Todd, that MAY save you from getting a ticket, although you can still be cited if the PFD isn't "readily accessible," but always carefully check the SIs on this issue: US SAILING frequently requires the USCG PFD be "worn" and not just "carried."
Posted By: mbounds

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by John Williams
(T)he RC was compelled by a competitor to file protest on a sailor wearing a CE vest.

I'd like to know how a competitor "compelled" the RC to protest. The RC may (permissive) protest a boat (60.2) and only shall (must) protest a boat when they "receive a report required by rule 43.1(c)(clothing weight) or 78.3 (class rule compliance)" (RRS 60.2)
Posted By: John Williams

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 05:05 AM

Offline chat... beer SHALL be required.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 11:08 AM

Beer is good.
Posted By: brucat

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 12:38 PM

You guys just made my point. Every time US Sailing (or some well-intentioned OA or RC) decides that they are smarter than the RRS or USCG, it becomes hell for everyone involved.

I can think of some scenarios where the RC would feel pressured to file, but would love to hear this too, so I can watch out for similar nonsense.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 02:01 PM

Oh come on guys.... read between the lines.

The final result matters (probably to parents more then kids) ... so, you play the game using all of the rules on the books and count on the ref to make you a winner. Sailing is now just like any other sport. Working the ref is part of the gamesmanship in the game. The ethos of call your own foul has morphed into call protest and let the ref decide.... So... it is even better when you can shame the OA and PRO into calling the foul for you rather then be accused of violating safety rules.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 02:41 PM

Sailors have found a way around the "only RC may protest a breach of rule X" clause. Instead of protesting under rule X, they protest under rule 2, alleging that the protestee committed unsportsmanlike conduct by knowingly breaking a rule. Once the protest hearing is open, then PC must apply rule X.

There is a way around rule 88.2 (which would allow SI's to change rule 40), but I hesitate to give the details.

A practical, although unpalatable solution is to change the penalty (anything from "no penalty", or a "warning", to a discretionary penalty). Another option would be to "exonerate" a boat for breaking rule 40 if a CE vest were worn instead of a USCG vest.

If, however, you really want to wear a CE vest in the USA, then you should carry a "readily accessible" USCG vest on board as well. That way, you follow the law and the rules.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Oh come on guys.... read between the lines.

The final result matters (probably to parents more then kids) ... so, you play the game using all of the rules on the books and count on the ref to make you a winner. Sailing is now just like any other sport. Working the ref is part of the gamesmanship in the game. The ethos of call your own foul has morphed into call protest and let the ref decide.... So... it is even better when you can shame the OA and PRO into calling the foul for you rather then be accused of violating safety rules.


Good grief Mark you can be a bit dramatic, you never bore me.

First off the ethics of the game haven't changed in the 43 years I've been playing it and if anything they have improved in my opinion. You and I are looking at and playing the same game and seeing it very differently and this is coming from a guy that as a rule doesn't like people.

As for this situation with rule 40 the rules are clear and are being used correctly. The Alter Cup inciedent was many years ago and a lesson was learned and as Matt has demonstrated (even with oldtimers I can remember who writes what Matt) if you put in the proper wording to the required documents using the rules as written it's a non issue.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
There is a way around rule 88.2 (which would allow SI's to change rule 40), but I hesitate to give the details.



That cat is long out of the bag.
Posted By: brucat

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 03:36 PM

The longer I do this, the more I appreciate the advice of several of my mentors (two IROs, an IJ and an IU): stop changing rules with the SIs. You can only make things worse.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 04:13 PM

Mike
As Jake noted...a CE vest makes it easier to get under the boom.... This is an advantage... The US Sailing Prescriptions (part of the RRS we must honor) require CG approved vests to comply with federal and state law.
CE vests have less buoyancy then CG vests.

Do you expect the competitors to honor the rule?
Do you expect competitors to enforce with a protest?
Do you expect the RC to protest?
Do you expect the OA to attempt to manage the issue and change the rules with the SIs?
Do you expect the OA to be smart about it and not mandate wearing a CG life vest in the SIs.. (So.. you can just have one on the boat)
Do you expect the OA's to take on responsibility by over ruling the USCG safety rule and finding a way around?
Do you expect the manufacturer to push a change in safety standards through USCG (less flotation).
Do you expect Dave and or Todd to bark at unamed individuals to fall in line with the majority in the fleet?
Do you expect clubs to embarass sailors who are not following the rules by calling them out individually but not protesting?

My view is that I can honor the rule by stuffing an orange CG vest in my hull and wear what I want... a CE vest. I count on the OA not taking away my responsiblity as a skipper by requiring a LJ at all times or worse... a CG approved LJ at all times. So... to the extent that as a PRO you don't fly the Life Jacket required flag OR put LJ requirements in the SIs... I agree... We have a work around.. It is a PIA to pull that orange POS jacket out of the hull to dry.... but I choose my poison.

US Sailing feels that as the standard bearer... they must set the example and so they require wearing CG vests at all of their named events at all times... (could be a keel boat J22 drifter and the gals are still wearing vests).

Most events ignore their lead thankfully!
Posted By: brucat

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 04:38 PM

Mark, if no one futzes with the rules in the SIs, your solution works...

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Todd, that MAY save you from getting a ticket, although you can still be cited if the PFD isn't "readily accessible," but always carefully check the SIs on this issue: US SAILING frequently requires the USCG PFD be "worn" and not just "carried."


Um-kay... Get the bright orange USCG pfd, fold it in half and velcro it to your boom... right about where you'd bonk your head in a chinese gybe situation.

Take care of two issues simultaneously - an approved vest in an "readily accessable" location AND not getting your brains knocked out by the boom...

Now, if you attach 50' of 3mm spectra to that pfd, does it also qualify as "throwable"?
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 06:22 PM

John - remember the discussion we had with Dave during breakfast, in Houston in '09? Was that not right after the ISAF Youth Qualifier at ABYC?

Chuck Hawley has acquired multihull safety recommendations from around the country to include in a re-write of the OSR. I do know that the Gulf Yachting Association is in alignment with the Bay Area Multihull Association. Mark Hansen has played a role in this. The MHC Safety Comm you created has not been asleep.
If you, Matt, Dave, Mark,Hansen, and Mike Levesque would like to pursue this, let me know, and I will send you the stuff from Chuck.
The prescription to rule 40 is outside the lifelines of fairness and rarely enforced...BTW - Several competitors were in violation of said prescription during the previous Alter Cup and Means, nor Fairlie, said a word, even though, it was obvious. They did hire Liz to assist in a porch-side talk regarding respect for the Race Committee, which was out on the water that day, ready to race, while the competitors elected to remain ashore until it 'warmed up.' That WAS a Risk Management move, if I ever saw one.

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by catandahalf
They did hire Liz to assist in a porch-side talk regarding respect for the Race Committee, which was out on the water that day, ready to race, while the competitors elected to remain ashore until it 'warmed up.'


What the he!! has happened to us and when did we get so freaking delicate!?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram


What the he!! has happened to us and when did we get so freaking delicate!?


probably the minute I asked for a 4:1 traveler...
Posted By: mbounds

Re: life jackets - 06/11/13 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Oh come on guys.... read between the lines.

The final result matters (probably to parents more then kids) ... so, you play the game using all of the rules on the books and count on the ref to make you a winner. Sailing is now just like any other sport. Working the ref is part of the gamesmanship in the game. The ethos of call your own foul has morphed into call protest and let the ref decide.... So... it is even better when you can shame the OA and PRO into calling the foul for you rather then be accused of violating safety rules.


Good grief Mark you can be a bit dramatic, you never bore me.

Problem is, Ding - he was spot on. Youth event; parents got up in the RC's grill and made a scene.

I wouldn't have believed it until I was a judge at the Opti Nationals last year. Opti parents (and paid coaches) are the worst thing that's ever happened to youth sailing.
Posted By: brucat

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 01:42 AM

I did warn you about that, Matt...

Of course, they can also be your best friends, especially if you're the PRO, and you only have three mark boats, and it's blowing 20+ knots, and there are 100 boats. It's like any sport, you get the bad with the good.

A more interesting dilemma here is, who is more unsportsmanlike? The protestor, or the person who chooses to flaunt the rules he chooses not to respect?

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 03:18 AM

Quote

I wouldn't have believed it until I was a judge at the Opti Nationals last year. Opti parents (and paid coaches) are the worst thing that's ever happened to youth sailing.


Why?

You can't have it both ways.... Sailing is just like basketball or any other sport now. Every game we watch on TV has the coach going apes...t when they think they can push an angle to the ref. The announcer applauds his actions. The fans talk about what a great coach he is.. He is viewed as being just as much on the court as the players. The player believes that you have a coach to engage in the battles. The days of the competitor going into the room by themselves are over.... Farah Hall regrets to this day... her decision to not have council going into her protest hearing for the windsurf trials.... changes were made in the due process system.

The Corinthian ethos is gone.... replaced by the "push the rules and make the other guy or the pc committee call me on it". So, for the opti moms... All they know is that if you don't call it...the other kids gets by on the system and your kid loses.

Yes Dave, the ethics of the game have changed enormously...
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 03:28 AM

Matt,

I am personally offended by your general statement and believe it shows complete ignorance for how the Opti class operates.
As someone who coaches one of the most elite opti teams throughout the year I admit there are some coaches that cause a problem but for the most part the goods outweigh the bads and I am proud to say that the opti kids coming out of the US system now are generally getting better with every year. Our last worlds team (which I have coached kids that got 7th and 12th) was the highest placing worlds team in US history.
As a one time "opti nationals" judge it is completely ignorant for you to pass judgment on this one experience. I believe that Mike may have had a similar opinion at first (as did I) but as you become to know the system you will understand more on how it works. There will always be overbearing parents and coaches, as there will be in every sport. Some kids will benefit from this and some will get negative experience from this. But generally the paid coaches are all growing the sailors and the parents are supporting the kids (morally and financially) more than any of our parents ever did. When I first started I swore my kids would never sail Optis in the current system. Now that I have been around for several years I would not want my kids to miss out on all the awesome opportunities and would put lots of effort in for them to get the most out of this experience as do so as all the current Opti parents do.

-Todd Riccardi
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 03:37 AM

Originally Posted by wildtsail7
Matt,

I am personally offended ..... I would not want my kids to miss out on all the awesome opportunities and would put lots of effort in for them to get the most out of this experience as do so as all the current Opti parents do.

-Todd Riccardi


I am personally offended at the thought of you procreating (That means having kids, Ricky).
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 03:44 AM

At least my kids won't be the offspring of a dumb redneck.
And having kids for me is a hypothetical situation, not in the cards for a very long time, just saying. And I just got back from having a few drinks.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by wildtsail7
And I just got back from having a few drinks.
And I think that's reflected in your rant, Todd.

I saw what I saw - enough bad behavior by parents, children and coaches to go around. From parents getting up into my face ("Why was my child disqualified!!!!" "Because he didn't show up to a protest hearing where he was being protested - twice."); to coaches feigning ignorance of when races were going to start and failing to get "behind the line", delaying the start for everyone; to blatant cheating by competitors ("But that's how my coach taught me to do it!"). There was even a fistfight between competitors on the launch ramp when one butted in line.

Yes, there were some bright moments - the girls behaved much better than the boys, but all in all, the experience left a sour taste in my mouth.

I'm sorry you're offended, Todd, but you've been drinking the Kool-Aid (among other things). You're part of the system of escalating expense and winning at all cost that spoils the experience for a lot of kids who may be talented, but can't afford the accouterments (like an Opti that costs as much as a brand-new Hobie 16 or a full-time paid coach).

When did we forget that the whole purpose of this was for the kids to have fun sailing? (not winning)
Posted By: brucat

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 12:25 PM

I agree with Todd, and with Matt. It's not a black and white issue. As RC and jury for all levels of youth sailing, I've seen all of the things Matt mentioned, and have even witnessed kids being sent home for drinking. And of course, the parents blamed the OA for being too harsh (a quick reminder that the next option was to call the cops ended that debate).

Back on topic, I never answered the original question. I have an old Kokotat with a million pockets that I love.

Mike
Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by wildtsail7
And having kids for me is a hypothetical situation


Due mostly to your hypothetical girlfriend.
Posted By: brucat

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 02:13 PM

Well, he did go out drinking and came home to post here. Do we really need a map to figure this out?

Mike
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by wildtsail7
At least my kids won't be the offspring of a dumb redneck.


Just a DUMBA$$.
Like Karl the first said, you need to take that first step and actually go out on a date (girl or boy you can choose, but the boy will make the kid thing difficult, hypothetically.)

p.s. The offspring of this "dumb redneck" just got principal's list, Straight A's for the entire year and highest GPA.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds

I'm sorry you're offended, Todd, but you've been drinking the Kool-Aid (among other things). You're part of the system of escalating expense and winning at all cost that spoils the experience for a lot of kids who may be talented, but can't afford the accouterments (like an Opti that costs as much as a brand-new Hobie 16 or a full-time paid coach).

When did we forget that the whole purpose of this was for the kids to have fun sailing? (not winning)


This sums up the Opti thing very nicely. I agree 100%.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by wildtsail7
At least my kids won't be the offspring of a dumb redneck.
And having kids for me is a hypothetical situation, not in the cards for a very long time, just saying. And I just got back from having a few drinks.


Holy crap, that's a relief. You look way too young to be having ankle-grommets running around...

Had I reproduced before I was 35, I'm sure I would have set myself on fire long ago... At least now I'm mature enough to realize that if I tough it out long enough, they may grow to be helpful crew.

The ideal of course would be for them to marry uber-wealthy folk so I can have my own Gunboat 110 with jaccuzzi and helicopter pad (Timbo's gonna be my pilot/cabin boy), but I'm putting the cart before the horse a bit...
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds


When did we forget that the whole purpose of this was for the kids to have fun sailing? (not winning)


The same thing has happened in every sport I can think of, with "travel" teams, private coaching, etc. I mean, EVERY sport you can think of, not just the mainstream stuff (soccer, football, hockey)... Like ballet, Archery, martial arts (seeing 8 year olds go all ninja is pretty cool, though)... I mean REALLY? Is winning a pickle dish and your name in lights more important than skill development and sportsmanship?

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 04:58 PM

Quote
I mean REALLY? Is winning a pickle dish and your name in lights more important than skill development and sportsmanship?


What world do you live in?

Yes it matters more then skill development! The piece of paper is how you get to the next step. It goes on the resume!

the assumption is that if you have the paper... you have "good enough skills" AND the "powers that be" have covered their butt because you have the papers. (The modern day peter principle)

Re sportsmanship... Well that is ALL in the eye of the beholder.. How is sailing sportsmanship any different then basketball sportsmanship in 2013... The Corinthian ethos of sportsmanship is very different then the other games we play and it is now an historical relic.

Opti moms are no different the Football dads ... or Tennis or Golf parents (see parents of Serena and Venus Williams. and see Tiger Woods for how to succeed in country club sports like Sailing)

So, is the world Opti program doing a good job... Depends on your point of view. Todd R is absolutely right... the Opti program is meeting the demand of the parents and sailors.

Matt's upset is that his expectation was not met and the fun factor of his volunteering went to zero.... (now off to our Junior Olympics meeting to run an event for Opti mom's and Hobie 16 parents.. the ying and yang of the sailing world.)

Posted By: samc99us

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 05:29 PM

Wow, how'd this thread get so far off track?

Mike, Todd R., Todd H, and Mark, what life jackets are you wearing? Now that I have re-learned how to properly tack after doing so incorrectly for over half a decade, life jacket thickness directly affects to time from wire to wire, assuming waves don't throw me from my feet.

Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 06:36 PM

Matt,
You really shouldn't go on a public forum and flame a class that you do not have a full perspective on. You are hurting the reputation Opti Class and catamaran class at the same time.
I'm not going to respond in detail to your post because this isn't the place..
1)you've obviously already made up your mind to be anti-opti
2)you obviously have no idea what you are talking about, and if you want to disagree than just look at your comment about a new opti costing as much as a new Hobie 16. A new Opti starts at around $1,800 (club), $2,400 (decent race boat or charter boat) and goes up to around $3,500 (brand new import or custom boat). A new Hobie 16 retails for around $11,000.
3)You think full time coaches are so expensive? Our cost per sailor for an 8 hour day of sailing is $40-60 and the coach to sailor ratio is never above 7:1 and usually it's 5:1. That's a max of $480 for 1 day of practice for 2 months (what many of these kids do). I've paid more than $480 for a long weekend of coaching for myself.
And just FYI Opti Nationals are not the cream of the crop Opti sailors. I've been at the last 3 Opti Team Trials which is the best kids in the country and I think you were be surprised to see the difference in these kids were the kids at nationals and local regattas. There is a large contigent of opti parents, sailors, and coaches that you have obviously seen and stereotyped this class. However, this is not the majority and definitely not the top of the class.

Back to the topic... Sam I wear a Magic Marine CE lifejackt that I love. Most of our fleet wears CE jackets but some of the top sailors wear inflatable USCG approved lifejackets. Personally I think this is sketchy but the arguement could be made that they could swim out from under the boat easily (as long as they aren't unconcious).
Posted By: brucat

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 07:12 PM

Kokotat (see prior post). Old and not thin, but at least no external straps.

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 07:16 PM

Todd, you missed a great weekend in Newport. Wish you had been there.

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


What world do you live in?

Yes it matters more then skill development! The piece of paper is how you get to the next step. It goes on the resume!

the assumption is that if you have the paper... you have "good enough skills" AND the "powers that be" have covered their butt because you have the papers.



I live in my own little troll world, but thanks for asking!

I was thinking along the lines of little ones (like under 10 years old) rather than the "youth" in general (which I guess would be up to 18 or 20 year olds).

Perhaps I'm too pragmatic, but I suspect the ratio of youth competitors and top level athletes is probably less than 1000:1

With that in mind, I would imagine it would serve any sport far better to focus on "fun-factor" over accolades for all but that 0.5% of truly gifted atheletes.

I respect our local High School football coach who firmly stated that while each player thinks they're the next NFL 1st round draft pick, it was likely that MAYBE 2 in the whole school have a chance at a full scholarship to a Division 1 college. Some may make Division 2, but most will end their football careers with graduation.

I hoped the kids take away the message that there is still fun to be had in the sport, and it's not worth killing yourself, cheating, or bad sportsmanship to get ahead given the remote chance for "success" (in terms of NFL play)

I would like to think that my future crew learn to enjoy sailing as a sport, a pastime, and a culture. Play hard, play fair, know the rules (and don't be afraid to enforce them), but don't leave the fun out of the equation.

I mean, really, who doesn't like to watch Ding pop a gasket when you lee-bow him (which, respectfully is getting less and less), or Karl (the first) get all stoic when his spin pole looks like the letter L, or watching the rise of JC & Sarah, having raced with them so often in the past?

Who hasn't had a really sweet leg, race, regatta that they'll remember the rest of their lives (even if they never won anything)?

Sailing's so far beyond just buoy racing, but we tend to focus our effort there. Perhaps too much?

Jeeze I sound like some tree-hugging, berkenstock wearing liberal. I need to go clean my guns
Posted By: brucat

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 07:59 PM

Some of the most fun I ever had was at the back of the fleet, just trying to get past one particular boat that was always just ahead of us. On the last leg (C to upwind finish), I would tack away, he would tack to cover, then I would just keep tacking like a madman, until he blew a tack. At that point, he and his crew would start screaming at each other, each blaming the other for being in irons, and I would just sail by. Even when I told him what I was doing over the campfire, all he could say was "I know" then we'd go out and do it all over again the next day...

Of course my new highlight has to be sailing with Hunter at Madcatter this year. He's six years old, steering the Wave along the starting line before the races, and out of nowhere starts singing "Come sail away with me..."

Winning regattas is a different kind of fun.

Mike
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: life jackets - 06/12/13 10:56 PM

Sam,
Zhik on the A, and a Kokotat w/ camelback for distance.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: life jackets - 06/13/13 02:31 PM

Well put Todd.
Posted By: outve1

Re: life jackets - 04/04/14 11:15 AM

I came accross this website to read more info on this great product: http://www.nauticexpo.com/boat-manufacturer/lifejacket-1107.html
Posted By: Jake

Re: life jackets - 04/04/14 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by outve1
I came accross this website to read more info on this great product: http://www.nauticexpo.com/boat-manufacturer/lifejacket-1107.html


Wow, thread resurrection AND spam all in one. Awesome.
Posted By: brucat

Re: life jackets - 04/04/14 02:35 PM

...and registering and making his first post. Now that's what I call multitasking!

Mike
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