Think you had a bad day?

Probably not as bad as this guy:



This happened at a long distance race on the lake today, about halfway a big storm came through with 40+ knot gusts and did quite a bit of damage (broken masts, sails, egos, etc).

The wreck is tied up with a string to the pole on the street.

Was it still blowing that much?????????

But seriously, what can you do when you are catched in gusts of 40 kts?

My experience would say: go as closed hauled as possible and free your downhaul! It would stop the hard swinging of the mast (in a gust the winddirection changes always).

Heaving to seems impossible to me.
Let it capseize on purpose with the risk of total upside down turtle?????
(But assuming that the water is deep enough and that you know how to upright from a complete turtle, it seems also a solution!)

Does anyone have experience with this type of horror?????????

Several years ago we raced Wave at Lake Eustis in 45 mph winds.., most survived, but it was tough.

Rick, I don't want to be disloyal to you but 45mph (40- kts) seems impossible to hold with a cat.

As it happens, I was out at sea this afternoon windsurfing in 30-40 kts and I could only do that because of a sail of 4 square meter.
Which is about two/third of the sail with 20 kts.

Not to speak of the waves which I encountered far out, they were 5-6 meters and even breaking far out.

With a cat I have had several times gusts of 30 kts but I needed to open my traveller completly then. So 40 kts seems impossible to me.
Perhaps one short blow, but not the weather mentioned here in this thread by Tony.

To make my story of this afternoon complete; there were also kitesurfers with me on the beach and they finally switched to 5 meter kites at the end.
One guy returned from the sea stating that it was impossible for him to go further. He was very frustrated, shouting that he had once kited in 50 kts.

So, I know that in the sailing world there is a difference between the actual windforce and the one you are perceiving or hearing later by the radionews.

finally, a cat I can afford

Are all the pieces there?

Yes lots of people have experience in these conditions on modern beach cats. I personally do not, only once having been caught in squalls with puffs to 35 kts, in the middle of the night though. Those with experience have usually gone full turtle and waited out the storm, and/or dropped the main.

I have been in something like 35 Kts, I missed some thunder heads that were hiding behind a tall dyke.
We had room to run so we first tried to match the wave speed by steering a broad course (surfing!) to and fro. Needless to say the room ran out on us and the scheduled ferry was out there... somewhere. We couldn't see anything (actually it must have been about 60 yards (20m)for all the flying spray and rain.
I didn't want to ditch because of the damn ferry. No way he would have seen us if we were upside down. I headed up as much as possible and we managed to hang on there somehow as the lightning struck left and right. Plan "B" by this time was to ditch on the slowly shelving lee shore of an island to get out of the way of the ferry, which then passed by us like a wall of grey iron, cutting off part of our already small circle of visiblity. The worst was over quicly after that and we had a blast getting back to the rental place. They were really happy to see us (and their boat) in one piece, (well almost, we tore out a trapeze bungee and a footstrap) it obviously wasn't the outcome they had been expecting...

Got caught in a thunder storm down draft last summer. The storm formed right over us, so there was no ominous dark sky warning to the west like we usually get. Hard to say exactly, but we guessed wind speed at about 35-40kts at the time. Water was nearly dead-calm before the blast. We traveled out, sheeted hard and tried to stay in a semi-parked position at an angle to the wind. Rig shook like I've never seen - the boat oscillated vertically a couple times too. Lasted about 2-3 minutes, shifted about 180°(that part sucked) and then stopped as quickly as it started. I'd give Rick's story some credence if it was something similar.

Most wind I've ever sailed in was H20 Nationals in Yankton SD. Sustained 29kts, I think the gusts were almost 40kts. I was one of the few boats that managed to stay upright, but I have no clue how. We were going so fast downwind that the rudders wouldn't stay down. Scary sh!t losing one, then the other rudder when you're not really in the mood for something to go wrong.

Most wind I've ever seen on the water is debatable. The closest weather station recorded 60mph winds, but I don't think it ever got that bad. Though it was facking scary for a while there.
















[img]https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/487634_4158167963733_1443687635_n.jpg[/img]


[img]https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/303132_4158167723727_1441577708_n.jpg[/img]

The top shot, hat flying, is a classic. You should blow it up and have it framed.

At the 2005 Hobie 17 North American Championships held at Dewey Beach, Delaware; we had a squall come through between races. It looked like a black wall speeding over the water at over 40 knots (measured at the Yacht club). Over 30 competitors had just enough time to park our boats and ride it out. No one capsized. Racing continued as soon as the squall passed. Matt Bounds can corroborate this story (he won).

The intention was to participate in this race. Due to a family weekend from my wife I couldn't go. After hearing all this stories, looking at the news, and seeing all the damage which was done, I suddenly enjoyed that weekend ;-)

Realy a lot of damage... next year the insurance fees go up again after this race :-(

looks like a typical summer day here in the gulf of mehico

On sunday, the wind crapped out and it was a very low tide around 3pm. My buddy and i stopped for the day but i left my cat on the beach thinking i might get a few hours in on monday.

Within 20 minutes of getting home i saw a line of storms coming across the state. Before i could drive the 15 minutes back to the beach, it was blowing over 40. Got to the beach just in time to put some tie downs in the sand. The boat was already wanting to fly away.

Max storm winds were around 55 that day

a few years ago, during the hangover regatta, we had winds over 40 mph. I was on a Dart 20 (not in the race). we broke a few battens, but were able to sail upright. The girl in front of me was screaming, i was holding on for dear life, the skipper was grinning from ear to ear and didn't have a worry in the world.


Other boats didn't fare so well in the race. Some were beached on islands in the gulf - Jack lost the boom to his TheMightyHobie18... etc

PS the dart had a Tornado main (cut down) and Tornado (oversized) jib on it.

Second day out on our Hobie-20 , wind was blowing near 25mph
as we were setting it up ; then it picked up to 30 to 35. The
co-owner kept saying : "NO-WAY" we're gonna do this , & i
agreed and said we need practice putting it together anyway!
I Never told him what my plan was ...

We tied the Main to the tramp, and hoisted the jib, then
off we went.

HAD A BLAST ; never even came Close to flipping her !!!
He was Amazed at how far we could point into the wind
with just the jib, but it took a LOT of rudder.

After that, i told him we should buy a H-16 jib for just
that purpose; we could handle a 40 quite Easy with it.

We sold the boat after i exploded the reefed in Main
in a 30 ; something about i'm WAY Too aggressive ?

HA -- Good thing i still own a H-21se !!! Should-a spent
the money fixing That boat, instead of blowing all that
cash on the H-20 ; but it's Mine and i can do what i want
with her !!!

Seriously guys, i would purchase a sea-anchor for your cat
and use it to drop the Main out at sea, if things go
bad ; your jib can handle WAY more than you think. Stow
the main and give it a try some day when the wind is up
more than your comfortable with.

Bille

????????????????

A Lot of wind is coming at you and it
can be seen on both the water AND in the clouds ; tossing a
sea-anchor is a way to safely drop your Main, then pull
the anchor and sail away with the jib.

Look at the shot below, just above the front-X-beam on
the port side ; that gust-front could be seen in the clouds
at-Least 10 miles away, before it ever got to Ya. If the
Main sail had bin dropped, there is a Very GOOD chance that
cat never would have flipped .

OK , i'm a mono-hull sailor NOT a cat guru, but Years on
a hang glider, sailboats, and a decade with kite-boards
have taught me that "WEATHER" can NOT just sneak-Up on
Ya , there are signs available to the aware person !!!

Mmmm, I've been snuck up on by the weather multiple times:

1) Dark, full moon, we're becalmed, we had very little/no warning of the approaching storm.

2) Cold front hit, no leading edge frontal clouds (very rare). Gusts to 30kts. Major capsize event.

In the above case, it appears they still had the spinnaker up and were attempting to out-run the storm...certainly dropping the main would have been a smart choice if you can get it to release on the water.

The beauty of some of these fast moving storms in more protected waters is they often approach with no fetch and the water remains flat. I've only experienced that once but 25-30 kts in dead flat water is extremely fast, and I quickly realized how the speed trenches work.

It's a sort of machismo, plus the top sailors would have gotten through that and stayed on their feet.

That's kind of a bold statement to make given the sailor involved. I've sailed with Other Karl and had the opportunity to pass through a rather "sporty" squall line with him. The list of people that I would be comfortable sailing in those conditions with is very short and Other Karl definately makes the cut.

Ask other Karl if he thinks he is the best sailor on the water and does he think a better sailor would have stayed upright. Also, ask Other Karl if he was "comfortable" I'm guessing he will choose a different adjective. But I don't doubt your assessment. Other Karl is definitely macho.

Since we have a new cat sailor on the board, one coming from the monohull world, let me just say there are a couple of things you can do in that situation. I go to the beach, lacking that, I bring in the spinnaker and come head to wind. Kudos to those who can sail through that and those who try.

Obviously I don't think I'm the best sailor on the water, but I will say that I can handle a boat pretty well even if I'm not the fastest or the smartest of racers. As far as a better sailor staying upright, I'll say possibly. BUT, I think the only two boats that stayed upright were on the beach. I remember it as the entire fleet was on their side.




I was greatly concerned with two things. 1. Getting hit by lightning. 2. Running out of lake when we were drifting on our side. and to a lesser degree I was worried about my sails. The main and jib were brand new that morning.




I got nothing.


For that series of pictures we did see the weather coming, when it hit we were headed downwind to the finish on the second downwind leg in maybe 12kts of breeze. It hit like a hammer and we were over. I knew on the first top mark rounding we should go in, when we hit the gate for the first time we were sitting in a good position and decided to push on. (Damn competitiveness did me no favors that day). After the second A mark rounding I was headed for the beach via the finish line, but it was too late, and things would not have gone all that well on the beach either unless I got the sails down and flipped over in a controlled manner.

Ah, but you'll remember that when you're old and gray.

The only way to sail relatively safely in extreme winds is with just a jib.
We took down the main by rolling it around the boom while the boat was on its side which was surprisingly easy (had a RIB unhook it at the top though).

Inland it seems like weather can really surprise you a lot more than at sea.
A few years ago I had this happen while kiting when a big storm came up and wind went from 12 to 45kts in minutes with hail and heavy rain.
That day someone actually died too, an experienced kitesurfer who hit a rock with his head

Where do you Kite Board ?
Here's Me :
http://www.thekiteboarder.com/wordpress/2010/10/the-unstoppable-billy-floyd/
==========================================

Out of curiosity , How many of you have actually
sailed a cat in High winds using Only the Jib ?

If not, then "WHY" ? Is it an EGO thing or
something to do with being Macho ? I'd Like to know
your rationalization .

Last year they had Hobie races at Lake Mohave where
i sail and kite board. It was blowing (30mph +) and
everyone stood around with there boats rigged and sitting
on there beach wheels ; they watched a 60 year old
legless White-haired
guy have a Blast on a kite board, (Me). If i had my cat
that day, i would-a gone out with just my jib ; i'm NOT
that good on a cat, and Still feel it would have bin well
within my personal safety-limits !! You have SOooo much
control over the cat with just the jib ; WAY more than
a fully rigged Main-sail, or even one that's Reefed.

The reaction time on the jib
sheet is Faster than on the Main because of the extra blocks
on the main ; yes a bit harder to Hold the jib down in
high winds, but ...
Just wear gloves.

Before Ya argue with me , remember i'm a mono-huller, and
was taught right from the onset that rigging sail aria to
match Wind power is one of the Most important aspects of
sailing ; i "Still" believe That !!

On an Unrelated side-note, if the Main were balanced at
25 to 28% being the pivot-point, instead of ON the leading
edge of the sail, then the reaction time of the main would
be Faster than the jib because now Ya don't need so much
extra leverage to move the wing. I know that from flying
Rigid-Wing Hang gliders. My glider is 160sq/ft with an AR
of 10 ; i can fly it about the Pitch control with two fingers
and do 70mph while doing it.

Bille

I go back to the '70s sailing the H16. That boat came with reefing points for the main but it was thought that doing so would ruin the sail. I can't prove it one way or the other. At the same time, it was quickly discovered that in survival mode, you can just come head to wind and all is well. On the other hand, driving these boats hard when it's blowing like stink is a rush! And if you do a cartwheel across the water it's no big deal 'cause they're easy to right. Over time skills increased and people sailed in unbelievable conditions. So, it just became part of the culture.

I refered to it as machismo which,imo, is not a pejoritive.

I guess the quick answer is you don't reduce sail because you don't have to if you're good enough. If you're not, you get wet, right your boat and life continues. It's just not quite as easy as it used to be.

back to the original post....

Heard a guy say that when the wind came in almost everybody flipped but that one of the top sailors boat(Gunnar Larsen / Xander Pols or something like that) was ongoing with the spi out there. The argument was that it it would be more safe due to the upward force of the spi. Any comments on that strategy?

I have gone over jib only. You try hard enough and it's easy to screw up.

No. "upward force" is about 8 degrees...not enough to overcome the "downward force" provided by the wind on the sails X the distance above the hulls in the water.

Not sure about all the math, but the spin lifts the bows ( as does everything forward of the mast) and keeps you from stuffing. Always safer to keep the spin up on a boat designed for it than not, assuming you are going downwind and capable of handling/ driving it.

1990 H-17, H-14 National Championship at The Gorge. Winds over 50 MPH at the weather mark. You had to be there to believe it.

See this video of guys who keep the spi up in strong wind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i128Pk8vFbE If I see it right they let the spi totally go when the boat comes up, and the helmsman sets the traveler way out together with the S turn. As I'm not that experienced in strong wind combind with a spi, I was wondering if this is the way to do this?

That's about 12-14knots of breeze. Look at the flag on the committee boat: http://youtu.be/i128Pk8vFbE?t=3m58s

I suspect that those guys are trying to lay the finish line but there are other things they could do to depower the boat and not flog the kite. You want to avoid flogging the kite if possible. The skipper should be bearing away and changing the wind angle as the boat heals but if they are trying to sail a higher line for some reason, this could explain why they keep it pointed in the same direction. In that kind of wind (or stronger) you carve the boat constantly to keep the power level consistent without having to constantly make sail adjustments. If they are trying to sail a high line (perhaps they are overstood), easing the main traveler is the first thing to execute, putting in a little downhaul to take a little power out of the main would be next (not a whole lot...you can overstress things here). The skipper should probably also be out on the hull but it's hard to tell what the water conditions were...putting your weight in may help take a little pressure off the bow but it won't help you sail a higher line. His crew should also be trapezing back as far as possible...it looks like he's in front of the rear beam. He should have a foot on the stern to help keep the bows a little drier. Oh! and good lord, get the daggerboards up at least half way. That alone would make these guys have a much easier day by keeping the boat from healing over so fast and often.

I don't think a spinnaker will take a lot of that so I'm sure that will get expensive.

that video reminds me of the time I was crewing on a 29er and we wiped out big because the skipper didn't bear away in a puff. In the resulting carnage, while I was picking myself out of the rigging, he asked me why I didn't "depower the spinnaker".

Note to self...1) don't crew for inexperienced skippers on skiffs who think they know what they are doing and 2) these small skiffs do not sail fast enough to be thrown clear.

There was no strong wind in that video (15kts tops), the 30kt winds started about 20mins after the video ends on that upwind leg.

IMO the helmsman is a bit late when bearing away sometimes (amongst other things), and releases the traveler because of this.
At 6:52 they passed the lighthouse and really should have been double trapping since the next gate was at quite a high angle.
(We went swimming when double trapped on that leg though, bummer since we where the first F18 at that point).

Arjan, you should attend some races sometimes.
The more sailors the better

Tony --> agree, we try to do that more often. Starting coming weekend in Tiengemeten if the wind is not too bad...

Ok thanks a lot! This confirms a lot of my thoughts. maybe I should watch less video's :-)

I think that was a rather Polite way of explaining
your point of view ; and i "Get-It" now !!!

Thanks : Bille

Furl the jib, travel out, and stay away from the strong surf; that seems to be the most dangerous part.

We got caught by a squall in the Great Texas that capsized us. When we tried to right the boat we found ourselves capsizing in the other direction. We opted to sit on the side of the hull while the squall passed overhead.

I'm sure these guys are not having their best day either:


http://www.vsail.info/2013/10/10/virbac-paprec-70-has-capsized-off-belle/

[Source: VIRBAC-PAPREC Sailing Team] This Thursday 10 October, at 13:00 hours, Jean-Pierre Dick and Roland Jourdain were sailing off Belle Ile on VIRBAC-PAPREC 70, training in 15-20 knots of wind with a view to the Transat Jacques Vabre. The boat overturned suddenly. The crew is safe and sound. The Cross, SNSM (lifeboat association) and technical team have gone to recover the crew and the boat.

In that top right photo, is that one of the crew being launched from the high side?

That's a long way to fall! I hope he hit the water and not the mast!

Looks like a flag to me. Easier to see if you right-click on the pic and open in a new tab or window.

But in the first pic, rudders don't appear to be pointing the right direction. Shouldn't she be heading down? Water spray kinda looks like she's on a beam reach at that point.

Hard to say - easy to armchair quarterback...

That's a flag. Three guys are in the center hull ****.

Video of the capsize

You can see one of the guys get ejected. The aft frame ALMOST comes down on him. Yikes! The other two pop out of a hatch under the hull after it flattens.

Damn! Looks like the driver kind of bounces into then out of the ****.

This s the 2nd time one of the MOD72's has capsized in recently.
In the video there is a hydraulic cylinder under the boom, maybe those thing are too slow for sheeting out quickly in an emergency.

Ok-- so please don't laugh ; NAH -- go ahead, it's cool.
I told Ya all that i'm a Mono-huller.

I got Numerous Hours on a land-sailor ; more than 1/2
in 25-30mph winds.

When the windward wheel comes up to a height where something
NEEDS to be done , like right now, i would turn the
land-boat down-wind and sheet Out.

If i JUST turn down-wind a few degrees, the windward wheel
will immediately go lower, but it won't Stay there unless
i sheet-OUT.

So when your windward hull raises to high, do Ya come off
the wind to lower it then sheet out ?

Bille

If your below a beam reach, yes. If somewhere near a beam reach (death zone) it becomes more a "which way feels like it will hurt less" kind of deal. The wave action can play into that scenario also.Sometimes it's sheet out AND dump traveler and sometimes it's just time to get wet.

They seemed to be reaching a bit but had the sails sheeted pretty hard on. I would think that heading up into the wind sharply would have been the thing to do there (easy to second guess from a helicopter view, though). It doesn't seem like he tried to steer much at all through the event.

I was amazed how far they went before they finally tipped over! Looked like they were going fast and then got a big puff, but didn't worry too much about it.

Looked like they were sailing on the side of the low hull for a long time and the didn't try to fix it. It didn't look like he was trying to go up or down to save it, just straight ahead.

Maybe they are so used to sailing it that far up on the edge they were thinking the puff would pass and it would come back down to normal?

It looks like the main trimmer tried to release the main as they were heading over but it never eases.

Maybe someone was sitting on the main sheet...

Yeah, that's my job...

I'm liking the lazy-boy recliner the helm is using. Hmm... wonder if I can get one of those on my boat.

Interesting linkage to the rudder. Never saw them move until the very end. Didn't see the boom move much either. Very strange...

When Spindrift went over this past summer, I think I read they use some kind of hydraulic sheet control that doesn't react very quickly in emergency.

I've read they have some sorta big red button near the helm that blows the main in a hurry in emergency. It appears that button doesn't work as well as it should.

How do you think these guys felt?

Part of me wondered if they didn't do that on purpose looking at the lack of reactions to that puff...but there's no way those guys would have taken such a bad fall if that were the case. Just watch the skipper closely. As he finally bails out of his lazy boy he takes what looks like a heck of a fall and I couldn't find him again.

The perils of helicopters filming you.

The question was : "So when your windward hull raises to
high, do Ya come off the wind to lower it then sheet out ?



Thanks for that !!
I've never used the tiller to correct the windward hull's
height yet ; always controlled with the sheeting so far, with
the heading remaining constant.
This info will help !!

Bille