US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013

Coming up on that time of year for the annual meeting. This year, it's in Captiva, FL.
 
The meeting is scheduled for Saturday, October 19, and there will be a teleconference for those who cannot attend in person.
 
We would like to have as many people participate as possible. I'll be flying through on my way out to TX for the Hobie NAs the following week, so there are no excuses!!!
 
At this point, I need your input on agenda items, as well as potential names for committee members for the coming year. We will publish the final agenda later this week.
 
For meeting registration and other info: http://about.ussailing.org/US_SAILING_Meetings.htm 
Hope to see you all there.
 
Mike

Last call for agenda items...

Mike

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but with all the interest generated in sailing due to the AC, particularly with multihulls being front and center - is there a plan to try and capitalize on this buzz?

Not even sure if thats something that you guys do - figured it would be worth asking though.

Help establishing access! As you drive across the Sanibel causeway, note the spoil islands had been off limits for years, are now only marginally accessible and ask yourself if there is a nicer spot on Earth to sail from?

The local county gestapo doesn't give a damn about its residents but will bend over backward catering to tourists.

https://www.google.com/search?q=san...=Mkg8UsnKCYKc9QSxoYHoDA&ved=0CDYQsAQ

I have been launching my Hobie 16 there for the last couple of years. The causway is a great spot to launch from, as you can pick either side of the islands depending on wave/wind conditions. I've never had a real problem. After Memorial day they were cracking down on boaters launching jet skis, etc by driving their trucks and trailers in the water (claiming they caused erosion). The last time I was launching my H16, two separate park rangers came up to me and asked how I was intending to launch by boat. When I showed them the fat beach wheels, and explained that we walk it in the water by hand, they said "have a good time, looks like a lot of fun".

If we can't launch fromt the causeway it will be a bummer, as there is nowhere else in SW Florida to launch from.

Well hmm. Sort of a bad day for the multihull community to make an appearance; the first race of F18 Nationals starts that following Tuesday, and I know a lot of who's who's will be rigged up well before that and racing in Sarasota that weekend. Still Sarasota is a lot closer to the meeting than other locations. What's the current agenda?

I agree. One thing I found most people liked about the AC format, was actually the AC45 World Series Format where there was BOTH match racing and fleet racing with a combined points winner.

Why not change things up with the US Multihull championships format and go to a combined Match Race and Fleet Race regatta? You could easily do a day or two of match race round robins, then two days of Fleet racing, and in the end name three champions (Match Race champ, Fleet race champ, and overall Regatta champ).

Would this "mix" things up and generate interest? What if there were higher stakes involved? What if sponsors and manufactures would sponser the grand prize of a new set of sails for the champ?

Why isn't match racing more popular on mulithulls? After watching the cup, it would be great to do some match racing against other multihulls.

I wish I could attend the meeting, but I'm driving to the H16 nationals that day.

I certainly have a lot more interest in match racing now after the AC.

You can launch in NFMY at Edison Sailing Center. That is not their property, legally they are just squatters pending the outcome of their property dispute in Ft. Myers.

I'm glad to hear someone else is using the causeway, I had several meetings with the county trying to get them to understand how catamarans are launched but if no one uses the facility they forget about you.

USS should have some sort of community outreach to promote small boat sailing.

IIRC, there was an organization called Sail Florida that had a huge regatta in Sanford, it got so big Sanford refused to permit it. Jus' sayin'...

Good ideas, keep them coming.

The meeting schedule is made a year or more in advance. I'm sure it's not ideal for anyone, and not just cat sailors.

I'm going to FL on my way from New England to TX for the Hobie NAs, so I don't think it's too much to ask for people to call in.

If we want things from US Sailing, we need to show that we have numbers, are organized, and show up in force!

Mike

That is a really interesting idea. It might be worthy of having a test event to try it out. Something similar - fleet races early in the event setup the match racing brackets and you rapid fire the match races one after the other. That would be pretty cool to try.

Pete,

The meeting is at South Seas on Captiva. You could raid it.

My suspicion is that most politikin is done before the meeting is called to order, the meeting is to formalize the decision.

Mike, I understand, just letting you know why the turnout from the ever-grateful of U.S Sailing F18 contingent may be low.

Pete, nah everything gets decided in Committee. Showing up at the bar the night before is optional, as is buying drinks for the key decision makers.

Coralreefer, that is a great idea! I know we'd show up to give it a go. I would throw team racing in the mix (the most fun racing you can have on any boat at any time), but that might get complicated. Just another fleet race isn't really worth it for us.

Will try to call in, but will likely be either building our boat or racing that day. As far as agenda items, the biggest one I can think of is lowering entry barriers to get more younger sailors into our fleets. In the F18 we thought about trying to get a boat grant program going, bit the economics are extremely difficult. Where US Sailing may be able to help is by extending the pathway below even the F16 to get younger sailors hooked sooner.

While other committees no doubt operate that way, we tend to be too busy as cat sailors actually racing and/or organizing regattas.

We need an adrenaline boost, and need some volunteers to get some new things done. There are literally no rules or limits on what we can do, it it's up to us to volunteer and make it happen.

While US Sailing does have money available for the right programs, there are a million ways to raise money without having to go through US Sailing, and any delays/limitations that would come along.

Personally, I see the lack of volunteers as the harder problem to solve.

Mike

No volunteers? You might want to ask yourself why.

It would be so much more fun to ask you...

US Sailing stepped up big time for us this year with the Alter Cup. It would be great to continue that momentum.

Mike

That's interesting to me, Mike. I was at the event. Please elaborate on how US Sailing stepped up big time. I'm not being snarky here - I want to know. Liz Walker was at the event for the first time ever (as far as I recall, going back to 1998 which was before her tenure). I suppose she might have been in P'cola last year, but I wasn't there. I thought it was good of her to come - she was the timekeeper aboard the committee boat and the only person paid to be at the event.

I heard plenty of scuttlebutt regarding the financing of the event both before and during. It did not sound like US Sailing stepped up financially.

There were a couple of people there supporting the three daily video updates - these have been done for other events in the past and I was glad to see one for a multihull event. They're used to not only reach out to the US Sailing membership, but also in reaching out to sponsors - I understand that Rolex is no longer a sponsor, so I imagine the hunt is on to replace what had been a significant revenue stream, if not for the event then certainly for the organization.

US Sailing certainly supported the event, but to a far lesser degree than the other organizations involved. The rock was rolled uphill by volunteers (as usual). There were several former US Sailing volunteers participating at various levels, and several future former volunteers (if history is any guide).

So I'm interested - what do you consider "big time" and how do you see that in relation to the work done by others?

+1

It's always a partnership. US Sailing is us, not them.

But, the racing on the AC course, which everyone (including you JW) raved about, was Liz's idea and she used board-level connections to make it happen.

In the planning stages, I thought it would detract from the event, and am glad I was proven wrong.

As for the MHRC, we see ideas floated, but need people to step up and make them happen.

Mike

I'm going to disagree. Sailing on the AC course was not Liz's idea. Further, it would have happened with or without US Sailing's involvement. You'll recall there were several events in the AC Open, none of which were coordinated by US Sailing.

So, again, what was the "big time" support that created momentum? And what momentum do you see that will carry into any event next year? My view from within the fleet is that if the Alter Cup is sailed on A Cats (or as part of an existing A Cat event), I don't think we'll see many repeat customers from the 2013 fleet. Do you?

...because you were in the planning meetings?

This is getting old, and not getting us anywhere.

Mike

Mike, if you want me to stop disagreeing with you or asking questions, you have but to cease making unsupportable statements. A more introspective approach outside the echo chamber would go far.

John, I was in the meetings. Liz was the champion for the AC course idea. Beyond that, I don't know what else to say.

I ask for ideas, I get blathering about how US Sailing does nothing for us. We are the only ones that can change that. If you prefer to live in the past, and/or insist that nothing can improve, I cannot help you.

Mike

Ugh. Mike, I simply asked what the "big time" support was, as it wasn't at all evident on the ground. I also asked what momentum you saw going forward. You've avoided both questions and evolved from "It was Liz's idea" to "Liz thought it was a good idea." None of this has to do with the past. I fully agree that you don't know what else to say, that things can improve, and that you cannot help me. If you insist on making it personal, we can do that.

You've already taken the lead down that path, I'm not following.

The first person I heard this from is Liz. I know you have a history and can't fathom that she could have a good idea, but that's what I know.

US Sailing worked behind the scenes with the host club, and got a lot done with ACEA. No one ever said the volunteers did nothing (actually, you were the first to "compare" the staff to the volunteers, which I think is appalling). But, I'm tired of hearing that US Sailing does nothing from people who were not involved. This is not a criminal case, if you choose to not believe me, I'm OK with that and have better things to do than constantly play defense.

Would you like to join us in FL and help us come up with some new ideas?

Mike

laughable



More equivocation and parsing. (Bert? Ready to weigh in?) The "you" in that second sentence should be considered plural. You're one short step away from the disgruntled former chairmen club. I may lose on the vote to admit you. In the meantime, hold fast to the fiction that everyone who came before you must somehow be wrong.



Deflections aside, you still haven't said what the "big time" was - I know who took the lead working with Sausalito. US Sailing played a role, but not the bigger role by any measure.



Your ideas are working so well! I read it on the internets. Biggest Alter Cup evar! You've only got a few more years to go before you can say that you've put more into it than me.

Honestly, here're ideas - Ask people who have attended Alter Cup before and after the format change what they think. There may already be letters sitting in Rhode Island. Don't waste time with surveys of sailors who haven't and won't ever show up. Ask the fleet about eligibility and life jackets. Don't blame sailors for not coming to meetings. Ever. When you're feeling or express resentment of the fleet (particularly if you put it in an email), you've lost the plot.

John, I'm sorry to inform you that there is no vote required for that membership. It's a right of passage. We would have to change the by-laws.

Regardless, we all had a great time at the Alter Cup. A lot of effort went into the Event. Now we need to continue to support the Championship Comm. to make the next Alter Cup even better. And, support your local sailing activities. BTW, Sail Sand Point in Seattle, A US SAILING Center does that for the NW.
www.sailsandpoint.org

Talk about dodging! I asked for ideas to move forward, you still want to compare to the past.

I don't know what sort of denial you've lived in for the past two years, but no one was more hopeful that we could retain the old format than I was coming into this. It quickly became obvious that the boats are just too expensive now, regardless of the manufacturer. You mentioned Bert, he was the one who dug up the numbers ($1500-$2000 per F16).

Instead of whining and complaining and saying let's take the money and fold, we tried to come up with something that could work.

Someone else wants this job? I'm fine with that. If someone else is ready to step up and move us forward, that's great. But, forward is leading toward better relations with US Sailing, and not making demands that will never see the light of day.

The whole key to this is knowing where we can make gains, and where we're just going to further push ourselves away from the table.

Mike

THIS is what we need more of.

Has this been a perfect (or easy) transition over the past few years? Of course not.

But, with people willing to try new things, and to work with (rather than making demands of and threats against) the US Sailing staff and board, we can make real improvements that can benefit all cat sailors.

Mike

Mike, I'm not dodging at all. Never have. My suggestion to you is to reach out to the sailors in the fleet. Not on Catsailor. Pick up a phone. There are ideas, though they might sound familiar. There are certainly opinions about what went well this year and what didn't. And that concerns administration, NOT the efforts of the volunteers in running the event. Caleb is right - fun time had by all, and a lot of effort went into it. As much as it might play against your preconception, I had nothing but gratitude and a helping hand to offer while in Sausalito. To circle back to the original point, you need to be honest, at least with yourself, about who did what. Broad statements like "big time" and "momentum" need to be realistic. The boats are not too expensive to charter if the manufacturer is recognized as the title sponsor. With Rolex out of the picture, that should be on the table.

While you're at it, please make sure you get the balances and expenditures on the various multihull restricted funds and have them reflected in the minutes.

Good. Nobody deserves to be left out in the cold.

John

Steve Clark responded to a question about the fairness of corporate funding for C class programs. His point of view as both an ex boat builder/ businessman and now leading his own C program.. Was straight forward... Sponsors want a lot for the money they hand over to you and so you wind up running a sailing business for the sponsor dollars. He had no interest in running a business and choose to just design and build his boats on his own dime and time.

Seems to me... the same philosophy holds for the US Multihull championships. Pay your own dime for your personal satisfaction. I don't expect a promoter to be out raising money to subsidize my sailing and to do this for nothing. Its a business.

The volunteers (me for a year) representing sailors in my region and others from around the country have NO interest in running a sailing business for an elite regatta.

(I am still on board with the Corinthian ideals and so I am more interested in giving my time to more charitable causes or events that grow the sport beyond what we have.)

I don't get the expectation that sponsors/promoters/ are part of the US Sailing call to service for growing the sport.

So just for grins, Assuming you have this promoter who will do all of this work gratis... You make this blanket claim....


Do you have a spreadsheet for your proof of concept?

How about a spreadsheet from any other builder in a monohull fleet or any sailing promoter?

Even if you could find sponsors for one year the event must repeat the following year and promoters tend to bail when their spreadsheets turn red.
Volunteers suck at finding and getting yearly donations and running this kind of business (most burn out running their clubs annual regatta much less a business of this magnitude).
Moreover, boat sponsors have strings attached to make the deal work for them which force choices on venues, time of the year, etc etc.
The major issue is one of financial and legal control with promoters... eg Could you have imagined US Sailing supervising Mike Worrel?... The lawsuits aimed at US Sailing would have been epic!

Even More business issues.... If you are US Sailing.... why would you want a group asking the same sponsors for a US championship in catamarans and then having to ask again for your Olympic catamaran program? (That is why they control the sponsor deals)

Final point is simply one of philosophy.... interest by the rank and file in the old format of area winners and 10 petitions in many areas of the country had gone to zero as evidenced by the turnout at qualifiers.

What is the argument for taking any more then the required draw of the endowment money and running anything other then an open event? The open and rotating discipline format serves more sailors in the country. At best, I could see merit in limiting an event to 20 teams by resume (which would still be a huge one design turnout in the USA in 2013).

Perhaps great answers to these issues could persuade the MHC to submit a proposal to the independent and separate championship committee to make changes...again.

I would vote to finish the cycle... spin, sloop, single hander (2014) before changing the game.

Good points Mark, agree.

Mark, it isn't a proof of concept - it was practice. We gave significant recognition to the manufacturers for years, and they provided boats at a sharply discounted charter fee. The fee was going up, but was still 50% of market value or less. Boats were put into a region where manufacturers or dealers or fleets felt they would sell, and they did before the end of the event with only one or two years as exceptions. It was a good relationship, and the goal wasn't elitism - it was putting new boats in an area where fleet growth was happening. We didn't dictate what the boat would be - we asked what the builders wanted to sell. Because the event wasn't about the boat. It was about equal platforms and a rotation system that put each team on each boat at some point in the event. Ten area representatives, several class champions and three petitions - again, not solely for the elite, but still prestigious. And not for the sole purpose of selling boats, but to grow fleets and attract multihullers to the organization irrespective of class affiliation. I didn't come up with any of this, so there's no ego involved.

No need to cover the history again, is there? Things changed, but only because (IMO) the volunteers lost control. Certainly there had been diminished interest in Area events, but over half of them were still happening, particularly where there were spark plugs. Contrast this with zero at present. Area events generated members. Now that US Sailing membership isn't required to sail the championship, there is a net loss of members. Just join your sailing federation (PUR or FRA, for example), bring your CE vest, and sail on. This year, international sailors at least joined US Sailing in the spirit of the event, but we're still undeniably net loss.

I understand the situation - the process has resulted in what we have now, and it has never been my intention to malign the people who show up, wave flags, blow horns and carry beach wheels. I simply do not accept the "you can't do that" that we hear now from the organization that should be asking us how it should be done. We did do that, you and me and many who frequent this forum. In service to sailors. And it was working. But I accept my views are out of step with the current volunteers' outlook, who, as you've pointed out, will spin, sloop and single-hander. And we'll see where we land. Make me wrong and I'll be happy. In the meantime, I doubt I can resist asking for clarification, for example, when someone posts a declarative that doesn't seem to fit the facts.

TL:DR?

John

what do you define as "not solely"...
That is EXACTLY the system Area Winners, Class champions and invitations (to the top sailors who compete at nationals).

The trend of multihull sailors supporting this championship was down for years... With about 50 teams and just over half the Areas participating... I judge it as a failure. YMMV of course.

The core issue is Why do we want an elite regatta like this anyway?

We like the rest of the US Sailing OD classes have our NA's and Nationals. They are open!

US Sailing already runs a champion of champions invitation only regatta where multihull class NA winners can compete.

And.... We HAVE an elite multihull championship already... it is called the Olympics.... runs every 4 years. Better then that... The US slot is an OPEN competition... show up and win the selection events and you represent the US. No requirements to win anything or be selected by a committee to compete.

So Why do we need an elite by invitation only event that has all of these competition strings attached to pretend that we are sorting the best US multihull sailors? Moreover, why should we take the efforts of a large number of volunteers and the endowment and focus it on this small "not solely elite" group of the multihull racing community sailing boats that the builders want to market? (of course if as you suggest and you ask the people who have raced the event in the past... they will say they loved it.. (but they would not be sloop or singlehanded sailors) (who would not enjoy the sponsorship and endowment money for their use!)

I judged that the US Sailing championship should be OPEN and not Elite... just like the other championships in the country.

Bottom line... the premise that the old format attracted sailors to the organization was failing. The elite regatta format appeals to a select few and did not serve the entire sailing community (see the trends). ... Sailors felt like it was extortion to go to a local regatta run by the same volunteers that ran last weeks regatta. They voted with their feet.

There are fundamental problems with your basic and historical premise. Moreover, I don't believe that you can come up with a spreadsheet for the environment we now live in, much less convince a builder to put marketing money in the game based on your spreadsheet. (Yes times change... you do need a proof of concept. The notion that volunteers were loosing control is complete crap! There were votes by lots of people. No money was left on the table in the year that I served on the C committee.


So, where we are now is that the MHC supported the Championship Committee implementing the following principles.
Move the event around the country.
Serve the needs of all the mulithull sailors (sloop classes. spinnaker Classes and Singlehanders)
Use the endowment money to sponsor race clinics for all interested sailors in an effort to grow interest and skills in cat racing.

The old system had failed because of the business model and lack of rank and file support for qualifiers. The current system could fail if one design classes don't support their turn at the championship within their championship program.

You've successfully convinced yourself. Must have missed you at the last dozen or so. This all holds up if you accept the application of the terminology of "failure" and "elite," which I don't. And if you're merely a survey-taking non-participant, you simply cannot have an informed opinion. If the event was viewed by the participants as successful, then the task is to administer to that success and build on it. We got great mileage from that approach.

Again, simply ask sailors who have participated in events before and after the changes made what they liked and didn't like... there are plenty of non-elites to choose from. This will provide you with data from the actual people who pay money and show up. Then give them what they want.

The race clinic was awesome this year. :-/

Take a minute to plot participants on a map - we always found that to be a good measure of reach.

You guys asked for suggestions - would it be better if these all came from someone not named John Williams?

Mark, take the last five Alter Cups run before the changes (none of which I was chair, BTW) and peruse the bottom 15 finishers at each event. Your insistence that the event was only for elites is ridiculous.

As mentioned, I was always a big fan of what the event "was."

But, toward the end of that run, how many qualifiers were valid, as in, run per the US Sailing requirements?

Mike

What does that have to do with it? US Sailing "requirements" don't fit the layout of our sailing community as catamaran sailors. I can go into more detail upon inspection of that last statment. That said, I did strive to push our area into meeting the US Sailing requirements but we slid in the area of allowing non-US sailing members participate toward the end. We allowed them to participate to not excluding the company of our friends that aren't concerned with qualifying (although they knew their scores wouldn't count toward the qualification). We regularly had one of the top three attended qualifiers without that in mind. One could argue that we introduced people to US Sailing.

Nice try Jake!

The principle is the same as allowing non class members to race in your OD NA's.... You could say you are introducing the new guys to your class.

Every qualifier that I ran... which could be 20 or so had no integrity because I did exactly what you did...

You are between a rock and a hard place on this... You have a Yacht Club that is hosting your event and you must have enough sailors to make the event viable financially. You also don't have any rank and file support for the championship as designed. The happy talk about the good ol days were actually a racket.

US Sailing would just strike all of the non members and cope with the lack of integrity by the catamaran world. It took a nasty protest in another championship for US sailing to change their practice and follow the rules we all agreed on. We were O for 10 in the last round of Area championships that followed the rules.

There was no glory in the good ol days.

I bet that NO area rep has gotten a phone call about ... gee where is the area qualifier... I really miss that regatta..... I certainly don't miss having to flim flam them.

JDub, your PM says you're over the limit. Stop downloading so much porn

First point to make, Mark, is that the Area J event continues - we have it every year and the names on the perpetual are meaningful. You say the qualifiers had no integrity, but you miss (intentionally?) Jake's point that they worked for our community. We had events that were well attended and sent good teams to the finals. Your assertion that the championship didn't have support is simply false, as evidenced by the financial success, the administrative continuity, and full berths at every championship. I get that you have to cling to the premise that there wasn't support in the sailing community, because without it you're kinda nowhere. US Sailing had to force out nearly all the volunteers in order to revise the history and start from scratch. This wasn't limited to the Alter Cup, of course. It was part of the larger reorganization. Water under the bridge.

Since you were willfully not a participant, I again submit that you don't know what you're talking about when you say there were no good ol' days. Must be present to win. Or conversely, ask those who were. And if someone like Jake "Runs with Screw Gun" Kohl pipes up, your first inclination should not be to shout, "Liar!"

This is a point that cannot be understated Mark!

John... it was a nice harmless racket while it lasted... Perhaps you forget about some very popular rackets... My favorite In Baltimore, was the Peabody Book store, which was very popular back in the day... not for the book store in the front... but for the bar in back room. A profitable racket at the time!

I and Jake made it work for our regions... We pretended that all of these sailors were signing up to compete, The sailors pretended to be members, following all of the rules of the championship ladder competitions when really we were just racing another local weekend regatta. It was a nice little harmless racket that worked for our community. I am glad some of my friends participated in the second step of the championships. I believe that you had a great time sailing in them and you believe they were successful....just like the owners and patrons of my Peabody Bookstore.

I personally don't think it was wise to routinely petition and succeed in pulling large amounts of money out of the endowment to keep the racket going... but water under the bridge.. Time has moved on. This racket, just like the Peabody Bookstore racket, is over and those that benefited will just have to adjust.

Dave.... It is ONE championship with two parts... Qualifiers and a Championship. I participated for 20 friggin years by sailing in and running many qualifiers.

Or did you forget this detail?

It would appear that you are suggesting that the previous iterations of the Alter cup were less than on-the-level as a bar in the backroom of a bookstore would be. This is an uninformed suggestion with no supporting fact and, frankly, quite disrespectful to anyone that has helped organize or compete in the event during the period it was being run in the image that the founders created.

Yep!.... I deliberately skirted the rules on qualifiers to cover my clubs costs.

Apparently you did the same..

In fact...the last round of qualifiers were ALL not valid. (that is the only one I saw data for all Areas.)

It was a nice harmless racket... but it was a racket!

We're not on the same page. We didn't skirt any rules to cover costs. We continued to run our qualifiers in a manner consistent (actually, quite improved) from iterations in the past. New rules were placed upon us by a select few within US Sailing that made it more difficult (rather impossible in some cases) to comply. I tried to strike a balance between servicing the needs and desires of our local sailors and complying with new rules that we didn't get a say on, that didn't benefit us, and in many ways degraded the quality of the event. That said, we did have several years of 100% compliance in my area.

Our qualifiers were not a "racket". We ran clean fair contests and had legitimate winners and/or runner-ups that went on to participate in the championship.

How many times were you asked to be an area rep and how many years did you serve? You and I both know your motivation to run and sail in your qualifier was to give credablity to your passion, handicap racing. You never had any passion for the Alter Cup and its format.

Guys, attacking each other isn't really helpful. Seems like no one can mention US Sailing here without people freaking out. It does not serve us well.

My point was simply that there is a long history of us not being very good at making people want to join, well before my tenure. My goal is to find ways to improve that.

Mike

After Larry's comments about kids sailing hobie cats at the presser yesterday - the 1st agenda item should be about getting a call into Larry and giving the US Multihull council's plan to make that happen.

Or at least get him to throw some money at US Sailing Multihull kids training programs.

Believe me, Larry will not just throw money at you unless he sees that you have a plan and the capability of pulling it off.

Mike, if you want to get more people to join, first you have to answer this simple question (a question I've heard too many times at regattas):

What's in it for me?

You have to come up with $60 worth of 'Value' to sell it to non-members, and guess what, a regatta or two, ie. the Alter Cup and a qualifier, ain't it for most of us.

Oh, by the way, I did just last week, renew my membership through the Golden Anchor program, but only because I got a nice letter from whom ever is in charge of that program now (Liz?), and I got a $10 Discount! Oh, and I needed a new rule book anyway!

I'll still probably never attend an Alter Cup qualifier or the Alter Cup itself. It's not my thing. It brings out the worst in people, just look back at this thread.

I sail for fun, to relax, not for drama, I get enough of that at home with the 4 kids.

And right now, for the first time in 4 days, I see sun outside, and there's some wind, so I'm going sailing! Man is my lake full now! It's come up about 5 feet this summer!

See Ya!

Tim, the struggle to administer the event has nothing to do with the teams' experience during the event. You should give it a go in whatever incarnation is available. The fleet, almost to a man (or woman), hasn't a clue that constant, year-round planning is going on. Further, most don't spend time on the forum. If you like racing, you'd like the Alter Cup.

I'm sure Larry would consider contributing MATCHING funds to whatever we (USS) can muster.

I almost gave you a call yesterday Timbo, as I gazed across your lake and saw some ripples (was in a meeting). Next time I'll bring my harness..

The value I see in the USS membership fee is (hopefully) youth development. Adding new blood to regatta entry lists can only serve to benefit everyone by bringing potential new/used boat buyers, crew, money (tourist development, etc) and turnout.

I've got two extra harnesses, and two extra boats! You were in Sebring yesterday? It rained most of the day, today started out sunny but we just had two big lines of showers come overhead, now it looks like the front is coming so it may (fianally) start drying out, I hope.

Of course it will be beautiful tomorrow through next Monday, because I've go to go to WORK all weekend, again! I expect as soon as I get home, it'll be raining again! If the rain holds off I'll be out back in a few minutes, I'm just watching the Tampa radar to see what's coming next.

Here's the link to the radar, just click and drag it around to where you are, works all over the USA;

http://tbo.com/weather/local/interactive-radar/?

This is exactly my goal. Can't do it alone, and I'm not willing to dictate, so I'm trying to build consensus, which is proving to be a challenge. I think we have enough common points to be able to see this through.

Mike

what would I want for $60 of my membership?

The sticker is nice, and I think it used to allow me to register for events that a non-member wouldn't have access to...

I never used the discounts or the insurance...

but if that $60 goes toward training PRO/RC, developing youth sailing, and stuff like that (which I may never see directly) I'd say that's good..

Here's some things I'd like to see US Sailing provide:

1. access to cheap butt boat insurance
2. access to every US Sailing Center's boats, in the country, where I could walk in, show my card and rent one of their sailboats on the spot, with no BS about liability insurance or taking a class, etc. (I was able to do this on layovers in England, where I joined the RYA)

The problem is, it becomes a Chicken or the Egg type thing. To get more members, you need to offer more stuff, but more stuff costs more money, which you need more members to provide. So how do you get more members to join and spend money, if you don't have much to offer?

You'll need a deep pocket donor to get it started, call Larry. Give him a lifetime membership, tell him you want to start and promote more kids multihull programs, and buy some Hobie Waves and H16's, etc.

I hate most traditional Yacht Clubs, because most of them hate Catamarans. Maybe this AC will change some of their opinions, but I'm not holding my breath. I doubt most of them would allow you to park 10 Hobie 16's or Waves on their beach, if they even have a beach. US Sailing needs to have it's own sites, away from the stuffy traditional, Opti Only type Yacht Clubs.

Timbo - Surely your #2 is based on a higher membership level than $60/year, right?

It cost me about $30 to join the Royal Yachting Assn. back in about 1996, then when I rented a boat, I also paid about $30 for that, they threw in a wetsuit for free! After a day of racing with them, they bought me beer at their -on site- pub!

They know how to do it RIGHT!

The RYA probably gets some Government support $$, you'd have to ask one of the Brits about that.

I'd gladly pay $100/yr. or more, if I could then walk up to the US Sailing Center in Seattle, or San Diego, or Miami, or Sarasota, show them my card, throw them $30, rig up a Hobie 16 or a Laser, and go sailing. I tried doing that some years ago at the Martin County Sailing Center (Stuart, FL area). They had a couple Hobie 16 sitting there, unused. I asked if I could take one out for an hour or so...

They said not NO, but HELL NO! "First, you have to join the Club, then you have to take a learn to sail course, to be certified, then you can only sail on the days when we have a chase boat available..."

Yeah, right, see ya.

#1 is easy too... it's all based on underwriting. how much cheaper can you get. If $250 a year for your F16 is expensive, you're in the wrong boat.

Regatta liability would be cheaper for PRO/RC as well if each and every entrant carried appropriate insurance. And if we'd stop trying to sue everyone else for our own mistakes/bad decisions, insurance would be much cheaper than it is.

(yeah, I've got an axe to grind. Just saw a claimant shake down a club for $80,000 because she tripped in the sand NEARBY an event and claimed she needed knee surgery. Her position was that "were it not for the presence of the event, I would not have been walking there... Her BAL of 0.15 apparently wasn't relevant, nor was her surgeon's knee surgery recommendation TWO MONTHS BEFORE THE EVENT)

Still, $1,000 per year for an organizer to obtain $1 MILLION (USD) protection isn't that horrible in the grand scheme of things. If competitors weren't so cheap as to complain about a $100 entry fee for a 4-5 day regatta...

and with #2, it's just like any other boating club. You could certainly start one yourself and then offer USS members a discount rental fee? Heck, I'd pay $30 per hour to take a boat out somewhere... I'd even do the coursework to get the certification card you mentioned. Most charter operations have similar requirements...

The RYA guys were great, they told me that to get their certification card, I was supposed to take the full course and a written test, which they did give me. I sat at the bar taking the test, talking with the two guys who were running the shop, about my sailing background, handed them the written test when I was done, they quickly scanned it and said, "OK so let's go get you on a boat!" Great guys, I had lots of fun racing with one of their student classes, on a Laser Pico.

After the first race, (which I won by a wide margin) the guy in the motorboat says, "You've done this before!"

Yeah, once or twice.

So they gave me my RYA card that day, which allows you to go to any RYA site and rent a boat, no BS.

What Brits do we have here that can explain the work behind the scene to support this?

The certification would be the easy part. US Sailing already has certification programs, including for power boats; so it shouldn't be that hard to model that for cats. Of course, it will need to be administered and organized locally, so again, we'd need volunteers.

I'll ask Jack about putting something other than N17s at the US Sailing sites, but that would require a bunch of money, and may be a long-term goal.

Mike

Could there be a network or association of clubs that do this that's somehow tied into US Sailing, with some liability mitigation and/or certification process?

My club, CSYC on Lk St. Clair, now has a club Wave and Tiger and looking to get something in between (H16 or T2 or Nacra500 or...). As someone who travels frequently for business, it would be nice to have some reciprocity arrangement set up for boat use/rental at other locations.

FWIW, have not even mentioned such an idea to CSYC officers, but having a 3rd party help facilitate and reduce both risk and cost would certainly help it get off the ground.

Is USS a non-profit? Why not donate your boat and get a tax write-off while helping build a fleet for use by members?

And what contribution should paper-clubs make toward the effort?

Hey Tim, we have a US SAILING Center in Seattle, Sail Sand Point www.sailsandpoint.org There are six H-16's and seven Waves, ready, mast up and just 50ft from Lake Washington. Any time you or any of our Catsailors are in the area, we can get you on the water. No test required, just mention my name, and I can vouch for you.

Caleb

Caleb, how many such centers exist, and how many have cats?

Mike

Thanks for the offer Caleb, if/when I get to Seattle agian I will look you up. Do you mind if I tell my Delta Pilot friends about your club? Delta has a pilot base in SEA now, with the North West merger, and they are going to increase the size of the base, adding more flights, more pilots, etc. Hopefuly I can get you some more club members.

SEA was always one of my favorite layovers, lots of great stuff to see and do there. That's also where I got addicted to Starbucks and Red Hook beer of course, back in about 1989!

Tim, everyone is welcome to sail at Sail Sand Point in Seattle. See www.sailsandpoint.org for details on boat check out and costs. I did get some static from our Administrative Director about the mention my name comment. But, if you are coming to Seattle, just let me know prior, and tell me about your experience in sailing cats. I know many of you. I can then let the Level 1 instructor know you are qualified. This way you can avoid the required righting drill. Besides, I have seen many of you do this before while we were racing.

Caleb

Mike, not sure. Perhaps you can find out at the AGM.
Caleb

On my list of questions...

Mike

Thanks Caleb, I'm in Dubai at the moment and don't often get to SEA any more, but if/when I do, I'll let you know and try to get out to your club. I'll also give the link to Sandpoint to my budds who are based in SEA, or who layover there.

I have taken advantage of Caleb's generocity and took my nieces and nephew Wave sailing on Lake Wash last time we visited Seattle. Super place.

OK, had a good meeting with Jack this morning, lots of good potential, we need ideas and volunteers willing to make them happen.

Focus will be on new website, communications and class support. We want one new initiative that can apply across classes (youth, community outreach, etc.).

Who plans on coming to the meeting in FL?

Mike

I'll buy a pitcher since you're in my backyard.

I'll be there, but not until Friday AM.

We recently started a sailboat rental program at our club on Lake Carlyle near St. Louis. We give a short written test to people to verify their ability. We rent for 4 or 8 hours. We rent a Hobie Wave, Some Hunter 18, Flying Scot, or San Juan 21. The harbor master handles the rentals. Unless you have an onsite person to administer the program it would be impossible. We mostly rent the Hunter and the San Juan 21 unfortunately the Wave doesn't get rented too much. Before this program there was no way to rent a boat affordably anywhere. Our insurance is through a US Sailing Program. Rentals aren't cheap but you do have to cover the overhead.

Mike, do you have a call in number and conference code for the meeting?

Quick reminder about tomorrow's meeting:

Saturday, Oct 19, 11:00-12:30 EDT.

Phone details were sent to the committee members (and class leaders, etc.).

The final agenda will be posted later today, and will include the call-in details. I'll post a link here later today or early tomorrow.

Please plan to join us, as we have some interesting things to discuss.

Mike

Will try to call in, should be driving from Tampa to Sarasota around that time.