what did we learn from AC2013?

..these are just my ideas....please comment..
1. A c will not go back to non foil design..
..in fact i predict bow foils to stabilize the platform
..ORACLE being a technology firm will introduce more systems.
....these boats may evolve to DRONE-LIKE CONTROLS...
...someone onshore watching data readouts will control the foils and sail
..much pressure to abandon design,..REMEMBER THE STP TURBINE INDY CAR?...THE POWERS TO BE MADE IT DISAPPEAR,..YES?WE ALL KNOW THE OLD-SCHOOL Y.C. TYPE..BLUE BLAZERS AND ALL!
..BUT IT WAS VERY EXCITING!NOEW IS THEY CAN KEEP THE CREW FROM FALLING OFF THE DARN BOAT!DID'NT HOBIE MAKE A trifoiler,.a few years back?what happened to that?

They need to get back to sailing by human hand only. To me electronic controls fall in the same area as any other non human power system system. It equates to putting traction control computers on race cars. It is no longer the sailor sailing the boat. It takes a lot more skill to trim sails when you a grinding them in and out vs charging a hydrolic system the pressing a servo switch to trim in and out. Technology is great but lets keep the cup a SAILING race for SAILORS.

I hope they keep it fast, on foils, but hey, you never know what Larry's got up his sleeve!

Here's the Hobie Trifoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXSgZCDVWOM

I was at the Wildcat Regatta, Lake Eustis, FL many years ago when there were several Trifoilers (last time I saw one) but the wind was very light and there were lots of weeds in the lake, needless to say, they were not foiling, they were incredibly slow.

I think one of the things that made this such a great AC was the LOCATION, Larry picked a great spot, with WIND!! Guaranteed Wind, on just about every day, but you saw in that one light air race, just how slow a foiler is when it's too light to foil!

Kenny and Gary mentioned going back to Newport, but as I recall watching the AC's in Newport, they were mostly light air affairs. Same with San Diego. If you want to go fast, you need WIND! EVERY DAY! The only place (in the USA) that has that kind of wind, almost every day, is San Francisco Bay.

As Ian Murray said when that race ran to the 40 minute limit, "All that stuff underneath that makes them so fast in heavy wind, just adds drag in light air."

I agree, if they would bring it back to the 45 footers, soft sails, nationality rules, and allow full foiling, they could do it all by hand, with no hydrolics or electrics allowed or needed.

I know that would be a step backwards, in development, but if they really want 10-15 teams to show up, they are going to have to reign in the costs.

That all sounds boring, this is the AC!

You're right, this IS the AC, the AC that only a couple teams can afford to compete in, which may be exactly what Larry really wants. He stands less of a chance of losing that way.

Soooo...you guys also don't want to see them have GPS units and PDA's either? Heck, let's just not even allow computers at any point of the process...3D and other digital design, gone. Digital flow or computer performed stress analysis, gone. Wait a minute! Calculators have IC chips too...gone! Design the boats with a slide rule, baby! Give the boys a sextant and a sail tied to two logs and let them go at each other! Hell yeah!

I don't have a problem with it as long as the motive power comes from the wind or the muscle on the boat. America's cup is about technology.

I think that if you try to restrict it too much, you lose the allure of the cup. However, if you leave the doors wide open then you'll just get HAL9000 driving the boats which isn't something that we want either.

I think that the way the next cup should works is that when teams sign up and put down their entry fee, they get a "template boat". Not a design... not a set of plans, but an actual BOAT. If you want a second one, then you can buy a second one but no more than two (unless you destroy one of them)

From that point forwards, the rules allow you to make modifications to that boat to a certain limit.

What this means is that the playing field is more level. The major design costs would be manageable and you'd basically all be starting on square 1 in terms of build/design/technology.

You guys sound like a bunch of mono-hull sailors did about a couple years back whining about the cup being on multi-hulls and how awful it would be.

So Jake, you'd allow a computer to control the ride hight on a foiling AC cat, as long as the hydrolics are human powered?

So how about letting the computer help steer the boat too, and trim the wing, just like it does with the foils? I see no difference.

Like I said earlier, where do you draw the line on what the computers get to control, vs. the humans?

Humans can turn a handle and pump up a hydrolic reservoir, and let the computers do the rest, but is that Sailing?

W T F?

How about we let them have all the electricly powered hydrolics they want, but NOTHING is computer controlled, ie HUMANS have to trim the wing, and the foils, and steer the boat. Humans would have to actually SAIL the boats, what a concept!

I say we let them make it as automated as they like. When R2D2 wins the cup one day we can re-evaluate. Until then we can all enjoy the trickle down tech and enjoy faster boats.

Jake - I'm not poopooing the event whatsoever. I'll be happier than a pig in **** if they just keep the current format honestly.

But we all realize that we need more competitors in the LV in order to keep this thing sustainable.

Both sides in the finals clearly stated that there needs to be a way of keeping costs under control. Unlimited development isn't the way to keep costs contained unfortunately.

I think you're vying for a spot on a team as an engineer

let the LV series be "standardized". The AC finals should not be.

Look at the potential trickle down technology (that's now proven somewhat) that might eventually enhance our own amateurish sailing

All they really need to do now, to ride the wave of this AC, is modify the AC 45's they've already got, to foilers, and run the same AC World Series regatta next summer, in all the same ports around the world, see if they can get 10-15 teams entered and let them all lean to foil.

I wonder how fast one of the AC 45's will go on foils?

Only problem with that is, there were some pretty light air races (and locations) around the world, so it wouldn't be nearly as exciting to watch if it were a light air location.

Perhaps each team would stock two sets of boards, one for big wind foiling, and one conventional set, for lighter air?

The whole foiling thing only came about because the Kiwi's realized SFO Bay has enough wind to make it worth while. That kind of wind is hard to find in many other locations.

There is a little more to it than just installing another set of boards.

I would like to see the AC45s return, largely unchanged. I don't think used 45s would bring many if any new teams because the cost of the boat is small in the grand scheme.

Fair point. I'll have to ponder that. Even F1 limits traction control and slip feedback to the driver and I wouldn't want to see a boat that has a bunch of football players just grinding...I'm not sure it would come to that though....

Don't forget this a design and tech competition also and hydraulics have been on sailboats since the 70's at least.

So how does that work? The grinders are compressing air or...

Hydraulic fluid. They have hydraulic accumulators onboard and they are pumping up the pressure so the push button stations (and apparently computerized valves) can do the rest.

This morning when they were talking about the AC on some news channel, they did mention that there IS a Football Player grinding on Oracle! I missed his name, and it may have been a European or Aussie Footballer for all I know.

The point is, if all you need the humans on board for is to grind up some hydrolics, well, what's the point? Hire a bunch of professional bicycle racers, put foot cranks on the pumps, sit them down in the wells and let them peddle up some PSI, then let the computers fine tune the foils, trim the wing and tweak the rudders too...

Is that "Sailing" or is that HAL running a sailboat?

Is these races, humans were still a huge factor. Getting a computer to be a team of humans around a course would be a MAJOR feat.

If it ever comes public out that Oracle did have some type of computerized foil trim system, and that's why all of a sudden they got fast going upwind, I'll bet we'll hear a lot more about it!

"Is that "Sailing" or is that HAL running a sailboat?"

I think we're along way from that. Remember you've often stated a preference for Boeing over Airbus.

Yup, and that's exactly why. Airbus wants the computers to fly the airplane, I'll show you how that worked out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEH7OpnA-I4

In the name of Safety, they have tried to change the Pilot's job from flying the airplane by hand, to loading a computer, and then let the computer fly it, because, computers NEVER make mistakes, right?

Ask that guy operating the Airbus in the video above, he was the lead test pilot on the (then) new Airbus A320 doing a low pass at the Paris Airshow! After the low pass, the pilot was supposed to climb, go around again, and come back to land, but he could NOT override the computer to make the airplane "Go Around".

The airplane said, "Nope, we are going to land now..." I guess it didn't know the runway was BEHIND it!

No, we are not. The technology exists right now, what we need to decide is, how much technology are we going to allow onto the boat? If it turns out that Oracle did indeed install some type of computer system that was trimming the foils for them, well, what's next?

I guarantee you a computer controlled wing and rudder trim system will be better than a human, right up until some programming error causes it to land in the trees, just like that Airbus!

Oh, bye the way, right now, Boeing and Airbus are working with Federal Express on developing a pilotless Cargo airplane, a huge drone if you will. Here, read this, from an aviation info web board:

"Shlomo Tsach, IAI’s director of flight sciences, told the Jerusalem Post the technology already exists to fly passengers without pilots but "the world is not yet ready to be flown without a pilot at the stick.” However, he said, a study by Boeing suggests there’s no such resistance to sending packages without direct human intervention, so the idea of a pilotless cargo plane is gaining some traction."

Will a pilotless Passenger airplane be next?

Would you buy a ticket on such a plane?

"All that stuff underneath that makes them so fast in heavy wind, just adds drag in light air."

Seems to me the only extra stuff is the horizontal wing on the rudders. The "foil" is just a bent dagger board. If they straightened out the foils would they be any longer than the optimized normal board? Isn't there an AC72 formula rule that constrains the foil length, straight or bent?

As Jake suggested, could they have swapped to straight boards in a light air race? Wouldn't the bent "foiling" dagger be pretty feeble going upwind compared to the old straight or banana boards they started with?

I want to see the old USA 17 trimaran getting a retrofit so it could foil! At 90 feet with a 223 foot rigid wing it would be a sight to see. Maybe the 17 tons would need special foils.

Melvin and Morelli stated somewhere that they had looked at making the tri foil but that the most lift they figured they could generate was realistic something like 30% - 50% if they went nutz with it (I'm not sure the exact numbers...but it was something like that).

the funny thing is that these boats are probably faster than that tri monster.

JFC....
Was this America's Cup a massive endorsement for us or not? I'm going to go with yes.
I was in the Post Office today chatting to the postmaster of a post office in the middle of dirt worshipper nowhere. He was watching some of it, and was really into it. That is so completely unbelievable to me. While it will be extremely short lived, at least we're being noticed, and NOBODY gave a crap about the AC up until now in the general population.

So the kiss what if there was some auto adjusting trim of the board AoA? What if there was a dumb butt wand doing it like a moth?

I'm with Jake on this, that this is not a case of purely automation making the boat go, but helping it along. Keeeriist, some people just want us to sit in caves terrified of the sun. None of the upper echelon motor sports, (which this is, just not of the internal combustion variety), would be where there are without some sort of automation taking some of the control. F1, MotoGP, WRC, etc... all have something going on to keep it on the bleeding edge. I don't want to see an Airbus either, but I don't see it going that way, and if it did it would be at the events own peril. Completely because it would take the part that makes the viewer and enthusiast interested, and that is humans doing human things. Their trials, tribulations, and triumphs are what make it interesting and engrossing. There's no hero's with two robots duking it out on the course. Nobody gives two shakes of a limp dick about watching two computers play a perfect game of chess in .000003 seconds. I can promise you, that if a fully automated race were even the slightest bit interesting to the general public, we'd be seeing it already in some form or another.

So calm the kiss down, and think rationally, and let's not go backwards.

I can't speak to costs, a half billion dollars isn't **** to more people, corporations, and countries than you can imagine. The AC isn't a game for you or I to play, its for that top 1% who know how to play.

Top 1%? Top 0.00001%!

The top 1% can't afford this. Neither can the top 0.0001%...

I don't want drones the size of Boeings flying over populated areas.

I agree that no one wants to see an AC with computer-controlled boats. The engines in the 33rd were bad enough, at least they learned that lesson.

I don't ever want to see the AC dumbed down to a one-design event. Coming from one of the biggest proponents of SMOD, that says a lot.

Mike

Karl, you seem to be the only one wrapped around the axle on this! YOU need to calm the Fk down! Is it snowing up there already? Is that what's got you drinking early?

All I'm saying is, it's now up to Larry to decide which way it goes, I think he's got 3 choices:

1. Keep it exactly the same, same boats, same rules, same two or three teams who can afford it, if that.

2. Allow it to develop further. Maybe bigger and/or faster, more intricate and more automated systems to control the foiling, with computers, gyros, all that stuff Boeing's got sitting on the shelf today for a 787, installed on a flying boat. Hell, with enough time and money, they could probably just put floats on a 787, leave it on autopilot, and smoke everyone around the course, while some kid with a joystick sitting on the dock does the driving.

3. Dial it down a notch or two; use smaller boats, spend less money, but bring in more entrants.

So, as I said, and for YOU Karl, ALL I SAID, was, Where do we draw the line, when it comes to automation and sailing for the America's Cup?

How much is enough, how much more is too much?

Nobody is talking about going back to wooden J boats, or living in caves, or even northern Minnesota.

My personal opinion, automated hydrolically powered, computer controlled foils is fine with me, but all the steering and sail (wing) trimming should be 100% Human controlled, by hand/winch, not computer controlled or assisted.

And if they want to continue to foil, they should come up with a much better elevator control system than canting the daggerboard/foils back and forth. That's way too much work! It's like tilting the wings of an airplane up and down! Even the Wright Brothers knew that was nuts and used a canard, which would be like bow foils, which might work too. If they used small elevators on the rudders with internal hydraulic actuators, just like all the flight controls on an airplane. It would work much better/safer/cheaper/easier/faster.

BTW, I hate the hydraulics on principle, and wondered more than once why they grind with their arms and not their legs, which have substantially more power and stamina.

Of course, without hydraulics, I doubt they would have been as fast, especially through maneuvers.

Mike

The AC certainly showed how to publicise to a world audience a breathtaking, high speed race series. The onus is on sailing in general to follow through by getting the public up close to the action, having onboard cameras, screen effects to explain the wind, tides, shifts, course boundaries etc. The question is how to do that efficently for A class, F16 & 18 and other classes, while realistically being limited to a shoestring budge using for example, radio control drones, go pros, realtime tracking and special courses where the races go past the audience.

1/
close to shore racing is far better than 20 miles out to sea
& yes I was at Fremantle in Western Australia when we defended the cup way back when..... watch them sail out, go the pub and watch the racing on TV, then go back down to the dock and watch them sail back in..... if you were still capable of walking
Being able to watch most of the racing from the shoreline is a MAJOR plus.

2/
Catamarans are far more exciting than monohulls to the non sailing people..... its a speed thing
As to whether they stay with cats or go for tri's is anyone's guess.

3/
the AC45 series is a MUST HAVE.
every premier class of sport has a support class that's "up there" with the big guns, Forumla 1, MotoGP, & even Nascar use other classes to support the main events, it also provides a stepping stone for those not quite prepared to go all the way
whilst the 72' aren't practicle to be packed up and moved from country to country for a true 'global' race series, the 45's are. We need to exploit this support class to the max in order to promote the big toys..... a similar global series like the F1's and MotoGP's have would be a huge boost to all forms of sailing.

4/
Use of WWW. is a huge plus
whilst I've only seen a few news highlights on the idiot-box, there has been very little if any actual coverage on TV here in Australia via free to air TV, thankfully YouTube and the live ability kept many of us well informed and up to date..... I must also say one member of this forum should be thanked for his endless supply of info throughout the entire series, a job well done !

5/
The classes need to be separated.
I still fail to understand how the US boat lost points from a so-called separate series infraction of the rules....
That's like a driver stuffing up in the nationwide series and being penalised in the sprint-cup series ..... doesn't happen !!!!
Separate them..... what happened during the 45's series should have stayed with the 45's series

6/
Keep up with technology but control the level of its use.
If I had told you 5 years ago we'd be racing for the America's Cup on carbon fibre catamarans with shrink-wraped wings for sails and we'd be above the water and not actually in it you'd have told me to step away from the crack-pipe... so its not a case of where will we be in a year or 2 but where do we want to be in 5 ~ 10years time ???

7/
the human element.....
As far as I'm concerned, the day we hand over a racing boat/car/plane or whatever to a tech-wiz with an xBox controller we have lost the true meaning of sport.
Human error and indeed human input is what any sport requires, be it on a mass produced hobie or a multi million dollar boat....
Take away the human and it may aswell be a app for the iPad, then and we can all play instead of dreaming of what could be, yeah that will give me inspiration to try harder..... NOT !!!





Having said that......
For me the 45's were an awesome series, close racing and a largish fleet of boats all out there to win, personally I'd like a similar format for the cup, ofcourse I can understand that these big boats need far more room and so 1-on-1 racing is a safe way to go..... but I wonder how much more exciting the main event could have been if ALL the 72's raced at the same time ......
How many of us would love to see Oracle, Artemis, Luna-Rossa, & Emirates all running down the same leg of the course at the same time ???

now that would be some serious racing to see



till next time we wait n see.... in the mean-time, haul to thar wind and hold ya water

How is that different from the last several iterations of the AC? Most of those dudes were grinders, too? Just mechanical grinding with one or two guys actually manipulating the sail trim. Don't they have two or three "trimmers" on the 34 AC boats which were actually adjusting sail/wing/foil trim?

And on the use of foot-grinders, didn't the French try that once? I think it was problematic to switch from forward to backward pedaling (back in the mechanical grinding days) when switching gears or sitting reverse in the 2-person coffee grinder station.

Now that things could be pneumatic or hydraulic, you may not need the "geared" stations (which would require reverse pedaling) and perhaps this concept should be looked at again.

Of course, after pedaling like Lance for a few minutes to then hop up and sprint across the trampoline might make for some comedic pictures. But it WOULD free up the operator's hands for other controls (sheet handling, etc)

I'm going to miss "sex-breath"...

HAL might be "running" the boat in terms of executing commands and making suggestions, but I suspect humans "sailed" that boat by adjusting the wing, foils and that skinny dude steering.

HAL provided all the intel (laylines, distance to tack, general wind/tide conditions, etc.) but someone had to make the actual call.

Could this be set up totally autonomous? Probably. I think that's where you'd draw a line somewhere...

besides San Fransisco, are there other areas where the weather is reasonably predictable?

I thought Plymouth, England was somewhat predictable for wind that time of year... Surely with all this computing power someone has developed a list of global locations with a good probability of certain conditions (like winds 15-25 kts, wave conditions not destructive, etc.)

I remember when the AC was in Fremantle, AUS, they had a fairly reliable wind they called "The Doctor" blowing about 15+, daily about 2pm I think.

DC built a heavy air boat just for The Doctor, but on the light air days, he got crushed.

Computers trimming foils is the same as computers trimming wings. Air VS water but has the same effect on the boat.

The 2 AC 45s that were on display in the cup park and the village had been modified to foils but the boards were still the class boards. But there were 2 fore/aft servo boxes right behind the front cross bar. I think these were the two O had modified for foil testing.

I don't have a problem with hydraulics but I want the controls to be manual.
As far as the tablets and GPS. No problem. They are not sailing the boat. It is just a way to supply information.

does the wind work close to shore?

But that's a start. I recall "the Doctor" mentioned a lot during that series.

But recall the AC45s can get powered up in light air, too (at least enough to make a show of it...)

And maybe keeping the AC45 design as is might be a good "step", since many sailors/teams would need to become intimately versed in using the wing foil before they step further and move to hydrofoils...?

Are hydraulics that different than mechanical gears (winches) and lines? Both move in or out based on human input (either through direct manual manipulation or programming)

Some human should make and execute the decision (to trim/ease or change direction). How that command is executed (electronic, manual, hydraulic) doesn't matter as much in my mind

And drone jets will follow just as soon as the public gets used to driverless cars (at which point Google will make trillions)

We don't seem to have a problem with roller coasters and other "driverless" entertainment, even when it's assembled and run by folks with IQ lower than my shoe size...

As to light air days, why not just let them have two sets of daggerboards and they can pick which ones to use on any given day? Bummer if you pick the straight boards and the breeze fills, but I dont see how that is any different than leaving the code O on shore and then needing it....THe boards are your underwater sails, let them have different sets just like with sails...

According to statements by Coutts, there was no software control of foils.

I'm good with that, but would rather watch races in moderate winds rather than drifters...

With two boats and the high speeds of being able to get to the next wind puff or tidal stream, there seems little chance of passing once one boat is behind.

What if there were three boats racing, there would always be one boat with the chance of not being covered, we may then get much tighter racing as the lead boat would always have to play conservatively to prevent any chance of one boat taking a flyer to one side or other.

I thought we saw quite a bit of passing in this AC. "More than any other AC in history" as I remember it.

I have to say that this has been the most enjoyable amcup in my living history save 1983 .

As far as I'm concerned, stick with the 72's. Tighten up the rules a bit if necessary and have a yearly 45 world cup season a-la F1 in the great ports of the world.

My only wish would be foiling 45's in a 15 boat fleet (death) race