Catsailor.com

Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan

Posted By: catandahalf

Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 11/18/13 07:43 PM

NACRA 17 class just chosen for OLYMPIC class in TOKIO 2020 as well!!!! YOEHOEEE!!!!!

from Catamaran Racing News website
Posted By: Kennethsf

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 11/19/13 09:20 AM

Great news- keep the cats olympic!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 11/19/13 04:59 PM

Does anyone rave about how great a sailing boat the N17 is?

Does it have a life outside of the Olympics?
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 11/19/13 05:28 PM

Yes, but the design could benefit from rudder stabilizers and moving the daggers a bit forward.

Yes, the F 18 is a global success, but the N 17 is creeping into the hands of new cat owners and Olympic sailors from the past in our area.

Kirk will let you have one for about 30k with trailer, cover, and cat trax.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 11/20/13 12:34 AM

I think you'll see the class (and Nacra) move to add winglets after the 2016 Olympics. Sailors will vote to add them as it will improve the boat, Nacra will agree to do it so they can sell new rudders and/or conversion kits to all the exiting owners.
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 11/20/13 01:42 AM

Expensive rudders, expensive daggers, expensive masts.

Maybe I'm getting old, but seems we're getting a lot closer to the asymptote on the law of diminishing returns curve.

Of course, if I win the lottery, I'm all in for some of that cool sh!t. smile
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 11/20/13 05:34 PM

[Linked Image]
Got a link to that "story"?
Winglets should help control this.
(the photo shows a 17 with the bows lifted up high)
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 11/20/13 06:43 PM

Check here.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

!) - 11/21/13 01:50 AM

Yup... that's the picture that I think of when I check in on the N17... It is not a well behaved boat in the present configuration and the presumptive plan is to fix it after Rio.

Where is ISAF in this mess.... the 49ner was new equipment and they had several mods to get the boat right.... It simply takes a few years.. Why have ISAF not forced Nacra to get the boat right for Rio ... (the cynic in me wants to know... who gets paid off in this fubar).

IMO, The ISAF selection process failed... They should have never selected a boat based on the hype. Hell they trialed a boat with out the proper mast even designed!... and the assurances of pete melvin about just how great the new stuff would be... nothing more then crap! There is nothing revolutionary about this design (that works well)... In fact, they just added to the premium price... EG. curved boards.... carbon sticks and after Rio winged rudders.

As far as I can see... the only group that made out on this fubar is NACRA. The Olympic sailors deserve a boat at least as good as the Tornado or an F18. ISAF should give them that boat NOW.

Meanwhile... the BS that we need NEW... Ground breaking Cutting EDGE Olympic equipment... was a load of crap..
Notice all of the new equipment that ISAF wants to use for 2020 ... eg ... the 470... Laser... 49ner and 49ner XX and RSX Board. These are tried and true gear and have not changed in a generation.

Sadly, we did this to ourselves...

OH... and the grand plan... to move from Mixed to Men's and Woman's Multihulls... Up in smoke... Turns out... (and as I argued with JW at the time) was just nothing more then the propaganda used by OUR representatives to sell the god for saken Mixed disipline.. So... today... we just learned that If they get more events... they will be in KITES... not another multihull.... (Hard to see how you could get MIXED kites)
Nope... once the multihull was in... as Mixed... the Finn class could breathe a sigh of relief... And they just got rubber stamped for 2020.

Remember.... at the time of this decision.. LE had already won the cup on Dogzilla and there was NO WAY IN HELL that the olympics would not fix the Tornado disaster and put a Multihull back in....

We played the hand poorly.

We were screwed by our own volition and short sighted leadership. Sigh....

Posted By: Arbo

Re: !) - 11/21/13 03:11 AM

H-16
Posted By: Jake

Re: !) - 11/21/13 01:11 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Jake

Re: !) - 11/21/13 01:12 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Jake

Re: !) - 11/21/13 01:14 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: bacho

Re: !) - 11/21/13 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Yup... that's the picture that I think of when I check in on the N17... It is not a well behaved boat in the present configuration and the presumptive plan is to fix it after Rio.

Where is ISAF in this mess.... the 49ner was new equipment and they had several mods to get the boat right.... It simply takes a few years.. Why have ISAF not forced Nacra to get the boat right for Rio ... (the cynic in me wants to know... who gets paid off in this fubar).

IMO, The ISAF selection process failed... They should have never selected a boat based on the hype. Hell they trialed a boat with out the proper mast even designed!... and the assurances of pete melvin about just how great the new stuff would be... nothing more then crap! There is nothing revolutionary about this design (that works well)... In fact, they just added to the premium price... EG. curved boards.... carbon sticks and after Rio winged rudders.

As far as I can see... the only group that made out on this fubar is NACRA. The Olympic sailors deserve a boat at least as good as the Tornado or an F18. ISAF should give them that boat NOW.

Meanwhile... the BS that we need NEW... Ground breaking Cutting EDGE Olympic equipment... was a load of crap..
Notice all of the new equipment that ISAF wants to use for 2020 ... eg ... the 470... Laser... 49ner and 49ner XX and RSX Board. These are tried and true gear and have not changed in a generation.

Sadly, we did this to ourselves...

OH... and the grand plan... to move from Mixed to Men's and Woman's Multihulls... Up in smoke... Turns out... (and as I argued with JW at the time) was just nothing more then the propaganda used by OUR representatives to sell the god for saken Mixed disipline.. So... today... we just learned that If they get more events... they will be in KITES... not another multihull.... (Hard to see how you could get MIXED kites)
Nope... once the multihull was in... as Mixed... the Finn class could breathe a sigh of relief... And they just got rubber stamped for 2020.

Remember.... at the time of this decision.. LE had already won the cup on Dogzilla and there was NO WAY IN HELL that the olympics would not fix the Tornado disaster and put a Multihull back in....

We played the hand poorly.

We were screwed by our own volition and short sighted leadership. Sigh....




I agree that the Nacra seems to be a very expensive, under developed boat. I don't think I would want it if I were in the Olympic running. However, if I remember correctly, most of the testers were Olympic athletes or hopefuls. They picked that boat as a group over the other choices that were brought to the selection process.

Posted By: tshan

Re: !) - 11/21/13 03:13 PM

For some reason, I don't think the boat sails like that picture when under control by an experienced N17 crew. Could that be the case? If that assumption is true, then it puts the onus on the sailors to manage the boat appropriately in order to win the race. Is that not what we want? How is that a FUBAR? The best sailors with the most experience on the boat are going to win, either way - right?
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: !) - 11/21/13 03:52 PM

I've talked at length with many people who have sailed the 17, and they all really enjoy the boat. Sure the boat is powered up and sometimes crashes in big breeze- but these are Olympic level athletes and the boat should be a challenge. I really enjoyed Luke Ramsay's blog post today where he talked about the learning curve of the boat and just how much fun he is having:

http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Nikola-Girke-and-Luke-Ramsay-train-in-Miami/116898

Why so negative all the time?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: !) - 11/21/13 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by tshan
For some reason, I don't think the boat sails like that picture when under control by an experienced N17 crew. Could that be the case? If that assumption is true, then it puts the onus on the sailors to manage the boat appropriately in order to win the race. Is that not what we want? How is that a FUBAR? The best sailors with the most experience on the boat are going to win, either way - right?


I think Jake put it best.

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: !) - 11/21/13 04:00 PM

Ah.... the best description of what you want in an Olympic Boat that I know is from Bill Roberts. He used a Formula 1 race car analogy.... noting... the pro drivers can manage this car while amateurs go into the wall. Goran Marstrom (Tornado and M20)builder wanted a boat that was sensitive to the actions of the crew (Bill Roberts criteria) and allowed the team to race the boat tactically. Together these attributes allow an Olympic level race to sort out very very fine degrees of skill and eliminate luck as much as possible.

So..the combination allows the BEST sailor to medal. Just having a boat that is hard to sail or badly behaved is a low bar. Hell... if this is our standard... the Hobie 16, is hard to sail by newbies... yet the top sailors have no problems.

So... what you don't hear are glowing testimonials about what a great sailing boat the N17 is.... Compare that to the A cat sailors talking about how wonderful the Flyer and like ilk A cats are.... and now they are over the moon about the DNA generation boats with winglets and the right foils. (IME, both are true and on par with the Tornado as machines) The new boats are faster, easier to sail and make the game fast and tactical. THAT should be the Olympic Boat as well.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: !) - 11/21/13 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

So... what you don't hear are glowing testimonials about what a great sailing boat the N17 is....


Maybe the reason you "don't hear" anything is because the owners of N-17s are exclusively Olympic hopefuls (that's why they bought them) who are actually SAILING and training in the gym and elsewhere and it's highly likely they feel their time can be better spent improving their sailing than getting on a forum and trying to convince someone who rarely sails a cat anymore, that any shift from perfection is not the end of the world and a Doomsday for catsailing. Maybe you should try getting up with some of the owners and actually ASK them what they think. Personally the only thing that interests me about Olympic sailing is the people involved, as long as it's on a challenging boat. I think too much is made of it's importance to the sport.
Posted By: tshan

Re: !) - 11/21/13 06:05 PM

Two posts above yours is a link to an actual Olympic hopeful talking about getting up to speed on the boat. I'll take their words over yours.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: !) - 11/21/13 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by tshan
Two posts above yours is a link to an actual Olympic hopeful talking about getting up to speed on the boat. I'll take their words over yours.


That article makes my point perfectly,it states nothing about boat problems except maybe the mast, which has been remedied and says they are learning the boats by TRAINING.Seems the same as what I said vs. Mark's trying to find fatal, Olympic ending, catamaran doomed issues with everything. According to your (Tshan) post #267176 we are on the same page. Maybe I wasn't clear.
You also need to remember for these sailors the N-17 is a tool, it's what they HAVE to be on to compete in the Olympics. As opposed to a F-18, A cat or H-16 sailor where their boat is their baby and they want to brag on their baby.
Quote
"This summer we had some hard lessons which manifested themselves through big crashes which reminded us to start more controlled and work our way into pushing the boat hard. By the end of the week we were doing over 20 knots downwind on the ocean side of Miami Beach in big ocean swell. Talk about adrenaline and needing to have that teamwork and communication factor dialed. The best part of this campaign is how much fun we are having together training and racing. Not only is the sailing challenging, but every day it's fun and exciting as we work through problems on the boat, always trying to figure out how to make things faster and smoother. Part of our training also had us learning how to fly…"
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: !) - 11/21/13 08:45 PM

Those 17s look like pretty high performance cats to me.
It will be interesting to see how many male drivers will medal.

From my own experience i would speculate that the N17 would be more fun to go off the wind in a breeze with some winglets or a T rudder. Controlled skimming. The skill it takes to balance that boat w/o winglets may just add to the competon, however.
Forecast for wind in Rio for the olympics?
Posted By: Jake

Re: !) - 11/21/13 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Those 17s look like pretty high performance cats to me.
It will be interesting to see how many male drivers will medal.

From my own experience i would speculate that the N17 would be more fun to go off the wind in a breeze with some winglets or a T rudder. Controlled skimming. The skill it takes to balance that boat w/o winglets may just add to the competon, however.
Forecast for wind in Rio for the olympics?


12
Posted By: tshan

Re: !) - 11/21/13 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
we are on the same page. Maybe I wasn't clear.


We are. I was replying to Mark, but didn't do so until after your post.
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: !) - 11/22/13 01:13 AM

Mark,
From all the owners that I have talked to the boat is great.

The only issue I see is the sometimes lack of stability.. getting too much lift off the boards.. The problem is that the boat was designed just before a MAJOR shift in foil technology before that last AC. Keep in mind that curved foils have been used for years on other boats like the M20 and nobody seemed to complain then. The olympic folks are just pushing it harder trying to get max lift.

I have spent 3 years on a Nacra F20c and this year I put some winglets on the rudders. Wow what a difference. I can push it harder, get more lift from the boards and have more control. I can tell you.. once you sail a boat with lifting boards you won't go back..

Posted By: John Williams

Re: !) - 11/22/13 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
OH... and the grand plan... to move from Mixed to Men's and Woman's Multihulls... Up in smoke... Turns out... (and as I argued with JW at the time) was just nothing more then the propaganda used by OUR representatives to sell the god for saken Mixed disipline..

We were screwed by our own volition and short sighted leadership. Sigh....


Confirming for me why I don't waste time on this website anymore. Mark - kiss you. You still don't know what the hell you're talking about. But I love how you revise history to make it look like you're prophetic. I mean, pathetic.

Meanwhile, happy sailors sail on.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: !) - 11/22/13 01:47 AM

Dave, I agree about the boards... I sailed Chris Brown's DNA and wow... what a ride.... It was on par with my Tornado.

YMMV but the " the sometimes lack of stability.. getting too much lift off the boards.." is not what you want for the Olympics. You have 10 hour long races... I want the random chance factor to go to zero as best as possible. One "sometime lack of stability" is not the standard for an Olympic boat. One unlucky wave should not determine a medal.
Sure, everyone deals with the same boat... but the boat should at least match the Tornado with respect to the luck factor.

I agree, there was a major shift in technology and the bottom line is that boat is not right. (eg... "sometime lack of stability" ) the question is... why has the boat not been modified to get it right....ISAF did this with the Bethwaite 49ner. Why not the Nacra 17.

Posted By: h17racer

Re: !) - 11/22/13 04:08 AM

Surprised to see the 17 even made out of the factory behaving like this .. nice to look at though..TG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhRbUTPi-dU
Posted By: brucat

Re: !) - 11/22/13 01:38 PM

I think that this is outstanding news. Gives a level of stability for the sailors, MNAs and NACRA (who, by the sounds of it in multiple threads on this forum, as well as word on the street regarding parts availability in general, really need to get their act together in terms of support).

The boat was selected by the sailors at the test event. I don't think there was a serious MNA on the planet willing to vote against the direct result of the sailors. If nothing else, they could blame the sailors and wash their hands of it politically (this of course, is all speculation).

If there are design flaws that can be addressed with rule changes, the sailors will drive that. Even if nothing changes, it should be the most exciting boat at the Olympics.

And, the kite thing is a no-brainer, assuming the fad hasn't expired by the time of the next quad. Finns have an awful lot of political support, so it will take a major change to ever see them go away. Of course, I'm on record for saying the same about the Stars (actually, I still can't believe that actually happened, or that Brazil didn't pull it back in with the extra host medal)...

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: !) - 11/22/13 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
OH... and the grand plan... to move from Mixed to Men's and Woman's Multihulls... Up in smoke... Turns out... (and as I argued with JW at the time) was just nothing more then the propaganda used by OUR representatives to sell the god for saken Mixed disipline..

We were screwed by our own volition and short sighted leadership. Sigh....


Confirming for me why I don't waste time on this website anymore. Mark - kiss you. You still don't know what the hell you're talking about. But I love how you revise history to make it look like you're prophetic. I mean, pathetic.

Meanwhile, happy sailors sail on.


+1

I like the unfiltered JW.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: !) - 11/22/13 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by h17racer
Surprised to see the 17 even made out of the factory behaving like this .. nice to look at though..TG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhRbUTPi-dU


Did you not read Luke's blog? Did you see how far down the boards are!? And that vid was posted almost a year ago! I think most of the top N117 teams would see that and politely say... hey dumb dumb... There is no doubt in my mind that the so called "instability" is not an issue for the Olympic hopeful's.

B!tching about the platform...really? Damn!t I let myself get sucked into the Schneider vortex!

Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: !) - 11/22/13 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by h17racer
Surprised to see the 17 even made out of the factory behaving like this .. nice to look at though..TG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhRbUTPi-dU


Did you not read Luke's blog? Did you see how far down the boards are!? And that vid was posted almost a year ago! I think most of the top N117 teams would see that and politely say... hey dumb dumb... There is no doubt in my mind that the so called "instability" is not an issue for the Olympic hopeful's.

B!tching about the platform...really? Damn!t I let myself get sucked into the Schneider vortex!



The description of the video says that was their first training session in the boat....
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: !) - 11/22/13 04:19 PM

He He...

I did not say the center boards need to go forward... Bert Did
I did not say the boat needs winglets... Bert Did.
I did not say the boat has occasional stability issues Dave did.
The Canadians were using the carbon stick for the first time and it is different dynamically then the alu stick. I infer the boat has stability issues with all their crashes and they are working through them... basically Dave is right.

All I want to know is why the boat is not being modified ASAP given its olympic status by ISAF. Hell... you can get winglet kits now and mod your own rudders in the A class in a weekend.
Posted By: Jake

Re: !) - 11/22/13 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
.
All I want to know is why the boat is not being modified ASAP given its olympic status by ISAF. Hell... you can get winglet kits now and mod your own rudders in the A class in a weekend.


It's not being modified BECAUSE of it's olympic status by the ISAF.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: !) - 11/22/13 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
.
All I want to know is why the boat is not being modified ASAP given its olympic status by ISAF. Hell... you can get winglet kits now and mod your own rudders in the A class in a weekend.


It's not being modified BECAUSE of it's olympic status by the ISAF.


JEEEEZZZ! Isn't that the point (Lock in the design) of the Olympic status to begin with?
Mark, What are you really after here? Start shite, get the T back in, bitch just to bitch,Just come out with it.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: !) - 11/22/13 04:44 PM

Quote

It's not being modified BECAUSE of it's olympic status by the ISAF.


That can't be the answer... they fixed the 49ner with multiple fixes in the first and second Olympic cycle. ISAF and Nacra control this class and not the sailors... so the responsibility is really up to them.

Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: !) - 11/22/13 04:53 PM

Mark I nominate you to talk to ISAF and find out why the DONT DO IT NOW!!!
Posted By: Timbo

Re: !) - 11/22/13 04:55 PM

Here's a video of some guys who seem to have figured it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D52xllb112c

And, of course there's a song for that, featuring Supercat. Too bad they didn't use it for their F17 video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tw0O8DBgb0

Posted By: brucat

Re: !) - 11/22/13 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
.
All I want to know is why the boat is not being modified ASAP given its olympic status by ISAF. Hell... you can get winglet kits now and mod your own rudders in the A class in a weekend.


It's not being modified BECAUSE of it's olympic status by the ISAF.


JEEEEZZZ! Isn't that the point (Lock in the design) of the Olympic status to begin with?
Mark, What are you really after here? Start shite, get the T back in, bitch just to bitch,Just come out with it.


My money is on none of those. He hinted at it earlier in the thread.

Mike
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: !) - 11/22/13 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
.
All I want to know is why the boat is not being modified ASAP given its olympic status by ISAF. Hell... you can get winglet kits now and mod your own rudders in the A class in a weekend.


It's not being modified BECAUSE of it's olympic status by the ISAF.


JEEEEZZZ! Isn't that the point (Lock in the design) of the Olympic status to begin with?
Mark, What are you really after here? Start shite, get the T back in, bitch just to bitch,Just come out with it.


My money is on none of those. He hinted at it earlier in the thread.

Mike


Please quote it. If I have to read that babble again my head will explode.
Glazed over eyes come standard with a Schneider diatribe.
Posted By: Jake

Re: !) - 11/22/13 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote

It's not being modified BECAUSE of it's olympic status by the ISAF.


That can't be the answer... they fixed the 49ner with multiple fixes in the first and second Olympic cycle. ISAF and Nacra control this class and not the sailors... so the responsibility is really up to them.



You fix things mid-cycle that lead to mechanical failures in the boat because boats breaking under normal sailing condition is a crappy way to lose a race and a really good way to get a bad name for your event. For instance, when your masts are breaking, you build an interim aluminum mast until you can get the carbon one designed and built properly.

You DON'T do a quick fix on things dealing with handling and performance because A) all of the boats are the same and nobody is gaining an advantage over other teams because of it B) it doesn't affect the quality of the racing, and C) making this kind of change resets the training regimen and causes teams a lot of lost time to relearn to sail a boat with different handling characteristics.

Frankly, if the boats are difficult to sail well, it leads to more exciting racing to watch as evidenced by the recent America's Cup.
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: !) - 11/22/13 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Here's a video of some guys who seem to have figured it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D52xllb112c

And, of course there's a song for that, featuring Supercat. Too bad they didn't use it for their F17 video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tw0O8DBgb0


it looks like in the sailing video; the boat getting up to high speed then is looking like it will go to foiling like in the AC, but then the boat blows off the extra lift and slows down to like 6knts boat speed.

So it's counter intuitive to penalize a team that is trying to shift gears and having the boat go into a "restart" mode. Even though sailing skill will undoubtedly compensate for this eventually.... They will have to pick a mode that works for the boat. High mode with 2 in the trap had it's problems in that vid.
Posted By: h17racer

Re: !) - 11/22/13 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by h17racer
Surprised to see the 17 even made out of the factory behaving like this .. nice to look at though..TG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhRbUTPi-dU


Did you not read Luke's blog? Did you see how far down the boards are!? And that vid was posted almost a year ago! I think most of the top N117 teams would see that and politely say... hey dumb dumb... There is no doubt in my mind that the so called "instability" is not an issue for the Olympic hopeful's.

B!tching about the platform...really? Damn!t I let myself get sucked into the Schneider vortex!



Yes Dave, you got sucked in.....chill...TG
Posted By: brucat

Re: !) - 11/22/13 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Please quote it. If I have to read that babble again my head will explode.
Glazed over eyes come standard with a Schneider diatribe.


We all have our hot buttons...

Based solely on observations of other "diatribes" posted here over the past few years, I'd say everyone knows that two of Mark's are: the Portsmouth rating system and... Mixed Multihulls in the Olympics. My guess is that's what's fueling the rant.

Mike
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: !) - 11/22/13 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
Originally Posted by Timbo
Here's a video of some guys who seem to have figured it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D52xllb112c

And, of course there's a song for that, featuring Supercat. Too bad they didn't use it for their F17 video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tw0O8DBgb0


it looks like in the sailing video; the boat getting up to high speed then is looking like it will go to foiling like in the AC, but then the boat blows off the extra lift and slows down to like 6knts boat speed.

So it's counter intuitive to penalize a team that is trying to shift gears and having the boat go into a "restart" mode. Even though sailing skill will undoubtedly compensate for this eventually.... They will have to pick a mode that works for the boat. High mode with 2 in the trap had it's problems in that vid.

The crew did a big trim on the kite just as they cleared a wave, causing all the bow lift. Remedied by smoother control.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: !) - 11/22/13 09:27 PM

btw, I believe the boards are also shorter now. The originals were popping pretty frequently and they shortened them to lessen the load.

Might be a fuzzy memory issue, or heresy as well. I don't remember 100%
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: !) - 11/25/13 08:44 PM

don't know anything about changing board sizes.
However, after watching most of the video from typing nacra 17 into youtube….i am ready to race. ha ha.
Anyway it looks like my original comment about the video above has flaws; sorry for that.
The edit to "slow mo" of the boat lifting up made me perceive a huge loss in speed. Actually it looks like they didn't loose that much to the boat below them. That boat could well have been the reason the blue boat headed up in the gust instead of bearing way off like they needed to. Heading up causes any cat to lift the bows and that seems to be multiplied with the curved boards. Blue just flogged the sail for a sec, held onto the boat, and took off with out too much slow down.

In one video, a hot shot was saying that they stand further forward because of the curved boards. If they lift the boards up partially for heavy wind, they loose that extra lift and have to stand all the way back to fend off the pitchpole. There is one video of an orange team pitchpoling 2 or 3 different times while sailing with the boards in the partially up mode. If they just use them in down position, maybe by just bearing off at the perfect time in the perfect way----then easing it back up jus right, it would likely be fast to the downwind buoy; in everything except racing in max wind conditions where they seem to have to go partial up mode.
A situation that winglets help with. For me, that winglet is like a leg to stand on. You can really rely on it's stability. You are standing on that little wing that has constant lift even when power in the sails is varied. Maybe it's a training wheel, but it brings a higher level of control in the dicy situations.

There isn't much question that a decision would have been made to keep the rudders simple before they released the boat. It's still a fast cat that looks better than all the other ships on the olympic course, and will take real skill to win races on. The boat is very camera worthy in the videos. -not a fan of the single hulled, except when they are definitely faster, or for surfing/jumping.
Posted By: Pressure Drop

Re: !) - 11/27/13 06:25 AM

Put the Tornado back in and be done with it.

Faster, stiffer, and even 10-15 year old Marstrom components remain competitive.

Oh, by the way, Marstrom's carbon masts don't break from being sailed. They're designed to be sailed. Try sailing a Nacra 17 in 25 knots.
Posted By: Jake

Re: !) - 11/27/13 12:54 PM

I'm pretty happy that we simply have a multihull back in the Olympics. I'm never going to compete on that level so the only thing I care about is that it looks interesting to John Q Public. We've got curved boards that somewhat tie into the America's cup...a little buzz about foiling and popping out of the water if you lose stability on the boat. As far as the mixed team things goes, I don't see a shortage of participation so I'm not sure what the problem is there either.

You guys have some really short memories.

The mast thing should be corrected now...they rushed the boat to production and had an issue...big deal. I'm sure if we went back to the first time the Tornado hit the water as an Olympic boat we would find flaws there as well. As far as stiffness goes...really? An 11' wide boat (also with aluminum beams) was stiffer than a 8.5' wide boat?
Posted By: samc99us

Re: !) - 11/27/13 10:53 PM

Jake, it's a Nacra. I'm pretty burned by them right now but telling me any Nacra product is stiffer than a Marstrom product is a joke...despite the reduced beam. Nacra is owned by a great group of sailors with little engineering background, and you can see that in the final result of their products.

Yet I haven't heard a single Olympic hopeful complain about the boat or really any complaints about build issues, but these are still brand new boats (give them another year). Reality is you need a trust fund to be competitive and if you're going to be a serious contender you aren't on here complaining about the hand you've been dealt.
Posted By: Jake

Re: !) - 11/28/13 04:24 PM

Sam, c'mon. You had an I20 and you have an Infusion. You can't tell me you don't see the dramatic stiffness difference between the two. The I20 was old school hand laid and the Infusion built with vacuum bagging. Adding another 2.5 feet on a boat that still has (old school) aluminum beams takes away considerably from the stiffness.
Posted By: Pressure Drop

Re: !) - 11/28/13 08:35 PM

Oh my, vacuum bagging!

If you are honestly trying to compare the stiffness of an F18 infusion to a Marstrom Tornado, you should see somebody and get your head checked.

Sincerely, somebody who has sailed and won on both.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: !) - 11/28/13 10:18 PM

Unless they start using pre-preg, nomex, and autoclaving the N17, there's no way it'd be as stiff as a Tornado.
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: !) - 11/28/13 11:57 PM

The 17 is plenty stiff enough. That is not the be all and end all. The 17 design is way better than the T..sorry guys..
Posted By: Pressure Drop

Re: !) - 11/29/13 01:01 AM

The 17 design is "way better," says the Nacra dealer.

What makes it better? C foils that throw the bows out at high speeds with no trim tabs on the rudders for fore/aft balance?

Or maybe the high construction quality and decades of composite experience, leading to a highly reliable two-part carbon mast?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: !) - 11/29/13 02:41 AM

was watching them train several days last week in all wind conditions.

seemed completely controllable (up and downwind)
at no time was the bow sticking in the air

talked with Robbie about the boat for a while... he seemed to love it and was impressed with it...
Posted By: brucat

Re: !) - 11/29/13 02:12 PM

The criteria for being selected for the Olympics did not include being better than every other boat on the planet. In fact, there were some criteria designed to reign it in so the costs didn't exclude countries.

Mike
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: !) - 12/01/13 01:08 AM

I will tell you what makes it better.. 30 years of engineering and R&D. Yes I agree that prepreg autoclave construction will result in stiffer hulls but its a very minor thing. The Tornado is like a truck.. great in a straight line but it tacks like a truck. Obviously you have never sailed a modern boat.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: !) - 12/01/13 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
The Tornado is like a truck.. great in a straight line but it tacks like a truck. Obviously you have never sailed a modern boat.


Beam and minimal rocker have trade-offs.
Posted By: windswept

Re: !) - 12/01/13 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Pressure Drop
Put the Tornado back in and be done with it.

Faster, stiffer, and even 10-15 year old Marstrom components remain competitive.

Oh, by the way, Marstrom's carbon masts don't break from being sailed. They're designed to be sailed. Try sailing a Nacra 17 in 25 knots.

As much as I am a supporter of the Tornado and still sail mine every chance that I get, I think that there is a multihull in the Olympics is a win for everyone. That hard work was done by people such as John Williams who dedicated much time and effort out of his life to fight this battle. My hats go off to all of those who made this happen. It seems clear that if an eleventh event is added it will be kite-boarding so we have a mixed multihull and that is fine with me.
Posted By: Jake

Re: !) - 12/02/13 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Pressure Drop
Oh my, vacuum bagging!

If you are honestly trying to compare the stiffness of an F18 infusion to a Marstrom Tornado, you should see somebody and get your head checked.

Sincerely, somebody who has sailed and won on both.


Man, you Tornado guys have some wadded panties.



Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: !) - 12/02/13 02:02 PM

Pressure Drop:
Have you done any sailing on a Nacra 17 or F18 Infusion?

Posted By: catman

Re: !) - 12/02/13 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
I will tell you what makes it better.. 30 years of engineering and R&D. Yes I agree that prepreg autoclave construction will result in stiffer hulls but its a very minor thing. The Tornado is like a truck.. great in a straight line but it tacks like a truck. Obviously you have never sailed a modern boat.


LOL, In other words superior construction is a minor thing and has no value. Sounds like a used car salesman but you sell Nacras right?
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/02/13 09:55 PM

I'm in the camp that the Olympic boat should be made the best way possible like the Tornado was just because that did control costs. There were Tornado's that did multiple campaigns, I don't think the N17, (or even the Viper), would be up to that task. Both boats are built well, but they aren't a Marstrom Tornado as far as build quality goes. If you're replacing a $25k platform an average of once a year, thats more than double the cost of the T just on one campaign.

Just my $.02
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/02/13 10:02 PM

there has been crazy inflation in the cost for materials and shipping since the days of the Olympic T campaigns

so are you pro a $50-60 N17 (or other brand) for Olympic class?
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/02/13 10:02 PM

“There's no way to work in these waters, where you are literally neck deep in faeces in some places, and not be afraid of the health effects.
Show me the Olympic athlete who's going to have the courage to get into waters like these,” ecology professor Ricardo Freitas told the AP."
http://www.sportbusiness.com/sportb...olluted-waters-195-times-over-safe-level

Better stay on the boat then...

Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/02/13 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by MN3
there has been crazy inflation in the cost for materials and shipping since the days of the Olympic T campaigns

so are you pro a $50-60 N17 (or other brand) for Olympic class?



I agree - comparing the costs of a yester-year Tornado to a current modern boat is not apples to apples. A Marstrom Tornado built today would probably be closer to $40 or $50k before you start customizing and testing sail after sail (since sails were also open).
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/02/13 10:35 PM

Still cheaper.
Posted By: mmadge

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/02/13 10:52 PM

News Flash,Olympic Campaigns cost a lot of Money.The boat itself is the least expensive aspect of it.
It is like the book on how to be a multimillionaire,Chapter one starts with "After you make your first million". Let,s paraphrase,"how to become an Olympic Sailor",Chapter one after you become a millionaire....
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/03/13 02:31 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Still cheaper.


For the (maybe) three teams that chose to reuse their boats. I don't have stats but I find it hard to believe that most teams didn't chose to refresh their boat platforms and that only a select few were using their platforms for multiple event cycles.
Posted By: Pressure Drop

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/03/13 05:37 AM

Tony, I have been on a 17 once. I have been on several infusions more times than I care to, or even could count.

Jake, "(maybe) three" seems like a pretty confident estimate.

The fact of the matter is that you get what you pay for. Serious teams are on the water hundreds of days per year. A Marstrom platform has a considerable competitive life advantage over anything built to a lesser standard.

Someone else brought up the open sailplan of the T costing more. Earlier this year, the class voted in one design sails and locked the price for 4 years on said sails.

Even taking construction quality out of the picture, the tornado is larger, faster, carries more weight, and has a large preexisting global ownership base. Are you really excited about foils that can't actually foil?
Posted By: Kennethsf

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/03/13 12:06 PM

Maybe we should stop kicking ourselves in the nuts and be happy there is a multihull in 2020, do you really think the TV viewer [ and therefore the IOC] gives a **** about which brand boat these guys/girl sail on? It should be spectacular [which this boat is more than the T]and attract young people -read girls- better for TV [which it does better than the T]

all you whiners should realize that this behavior [bitching- this is better then that and/or vice versa] made the multihull disappear from the OG in the first place

lighten up and be happy our youth sailors can have an olympic dream on a multihull [oh it does suit youngsters better than the T as well]
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/03/13 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Pressure Drop
..
Jake, "(maybe) three" seems like a pretty confident estimate.
...


Ok...so what is it? You guys are claiming that it was more cost effective because the boats are so awesome that you could reuse them indefinitely (I loosely paraphrase ;-). How many teams actually used their platforms for more than one Olympic cycle?

Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/03/13 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kennethsf
Maybe we should stop kicking ourselves in the nuts and be happy there is a multihull in 2020, do you really think the TV viewer [ and therefore the IOC] gives a **** about which brand boat these guys/girl sail on? It should be spectacular [which this boat is more than the T]and attract young people -read girls- better for TV [which it does better than the T]

all you whiners should realize that this behavior [bitching- this is better then that and/or vice versa] made the multihull disappear from the OG in the first place

lighten up and be happy our youth sailors can have an olympic dream on a multihull [oh it does suit youngsters better than the T as well]


+1
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/03/13 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Pressure Drop
Tony, I have been on a 17 once. I have been on several infusions more times than I care to, or even could count.

Jake, "(maybe) three" seems like a pretty confident estimate.

The fact of the matter is that you get what you pay for. Serious teams are on the water hundreds of days per year. A Marstrom platform has a considerable competitive life advantage over anything built to a lesser standard.

Someone else brought up the open sailplan of the T costing more. Earlier this year, the class voted in one design sails and locked the price for 4 years on said sails.

Even taking construction quality out of the picture, the tornado is larger, faster, carries more weight, and has a large preexisting global ownership base. Are you really excited about foils that can't actually foil?


I've only raced against a T in one regatta. It was the Thai Catamaran regatta just prior to the selection trials for the mixed multi. The T was being between around the course consistently by the Carbon 20s, and most of the time by F16s and F18s. Not sure the level of the team racing the boat, but I wasn't all that impressed. The boat looked very dated next to the new designs.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/03/13 01:49 PM

I just say have marstrom build the N17.

One design sails doesn't save much either. Just means they buy a bunch of sails until they find one they like. I've owned and sailed a ton of new sails, they're never the same, even out of the same loft.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/03/13 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Pressure Drop
the tornado is larger, faster, carries more weight, and has a large preexisting global ownership base.


I thought the IOC/ISAF discussions pointed to those aspects as being somewhat negative... The goal was to get more female and/or mixed teams in Olympic sailing. If that was truly the concern then the first three items you indicate would possibly eliminate some smaller (stature/weight/strength) teams.

So the IOC probably sat at a table and said "what's going to put butts in the seats (generating TV and attendance revenue)?" and came up with a smaller platform, offered mixed gender format, and probably made some other changes.

So, after that, I believe sailors chose boats from an assorted (not unlimited, mind you) bunch of candidates. Since they seemed to like a smaller, less durable, faux-foiling design, let them run with it...

In my mind it's similar to the Star, laser, Etchell, Soling and other designs - they float but it's a b*tch to sail fast. None of those designs are the pinnacle of sailing (or technology), none typically last more than one olympic cycle. That they are still reasonably popular OD classes is a testament to their fleet organizers.

As for the platform, is the N17 going to take the world by storm? Doubt it. The T didn't (although it was close..).

Would I (non-olympic hopeful) consider an N17? Nope. For the same reasons I wouldn't consider a Star, Laser, or Etchell: Not my cup of tea.
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/03/13 10:29 PM

If you think the cats got worked in the olympic selections; compare them to the boards. Those RSXboards are heavy, poorly shaped dogs compared to a real race board that we would make on Maui. So at least cat sailors didn't get roto-molded cats for the olympics. "not that there is anything wrong with it" The sailors had a voice….at least in that aspect of the overall issue of only 1 cat with a mandated mixed crew when all the while a committee is creating custom girl models of various monohull designs to insert in the allotment of medals. Ironically the mixed crew aspect being unique, with a large potential for human interest stories, will likely get cats into the news more than past olympics.

49er medal race 2008 They are getting worked. Could be their course was in a rougher part of water? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tHGeFYmbNI
Tornado medal race 2008 They are charging. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4iiD4tcKtY
Posted By: Dazz

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/04/13 12:22 AM

Apparently nacra have issues on deciding which way is up... reports of multiple masts being shipped in this configuration.

well done nacra cry

Attached picture nacra_fail.jpg
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/04/13 02:02 AM

At least it makes it easy to drop the sail at the end of the day.
Posted By: catman

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/04/13 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by Dazz
Apparently nacra have issues on deciding which way is up... reports of multiple masts being shipped in this configuration.

well done nacra cry


No quality control.
Posted By: bacho

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/04/13 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Still cheaper.


For the (maybe) three teams that chose to reuse their boats. I don't have stats ldbut I find it hard to believe that most teams didn't chose to refresh their boat platforms and that only a select few were using their platforms for multiple event cycles.


Would we suppose that the tornado teams would use the same boat for the 4 year campaign? I would guess the N17 teams might go through more than one. Just a thought, in either case the boat is the cheap part.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/04/13 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Dazz
Apparently nacra have issues on deciding which way is up... reports of multiple masts being shipped in this configuration.

well done nacra cry


[Linked Image]

This is what I've come to expect out of Nacra quality control; to be fair they do appear to making an honest effort to fix it, but won't be doing so on my dime.

Jake,

This isn't the time or the place to burst your bubble. Suffice to say the only real in-house design work 2013/14 Nacra does is on the sails and rig, and even that isn't really Nacra, rather it's Performance Sails.

Again, none of it matters, it's the boat that the teams are stuck with for the next 7 years. I just hope the QC issues get sorted and teams don't have problems with their equipment that prevent them from training.

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/04/13 03:47 PM

Build quality of the Olympic Equipment has been evaluated by ISAF for every class in light of ISAF's number one goal... growing the number of nations that compete for Olympic slots. Boats like the laser and 470 have known issues but they are affordable. A pricey but bullet proof boat (Tornado) is not the objective for gear selection. ISAF dumped the europe dinghy for the laser radial for this reason. The cost of campaigning is large relative to the cost of the equipment but the entry costs dominate the thinking. ISAF nations have decided the build quality versus cost issue... The Nacra 17 is good enough.... (same as H16, AHPC F16, Hobie Tiger)

Once upon a time... the catamaran world looked to the Olympic Tornado for much of the innovation that trickled down to the other classes and the boat was refined over and over again. This philosophy caused lots of competitive problems for ISAF as sailors innovated within the class rule and the Olympic playing field tilted in ways viewed as unfair. The philosophy changed... So now they want a boat that is completely cooked and one design, controlled by ISAF and their contract. The ISAF solution... you can't drill another hole in the Nacra 17. You also can't fix things.

Given the uber one design mindset.... the mistake made by the catamaran selection sailors and Catamaran committees was picking a boat that was not tested (two prototypes made)... but the N17 looked like it was high tech, cutting edge (curved boards,)designed by an AC cup designer. Two years of testing would have made the fixes needed (see Bert) clear. Unlike the rest of the olympic sailing world.... we bit on the bright shiny object.... Meanwhile, the rest of the world will use the same equipment in 2020 that they have for the last 20 years... So, fixing the boat mid stream is a political problem that ISAF and Nacra have decided to delay until after Rio. It is a failure and for the sailors... Well... it is what it is...and the game ends in three years to win their countries selection process.

The long term issue is the MIXED discipline for Multis.... Obviously the plan to migrate from mixed to mens and womans cats failed with barely a wimper and multihulls are almost unique in the entire Olymmpic games with a mixed sport. The powers that be should have stayed with Open or argued that all double handed sailing classes should be mixed or open. (470 and 48ner). We failed at the politics of this as well.

PS, Jake, Roman Hagarra (Aut) used his Tornado for three games and won medals.
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/04/13 06:17 PM

link to 2013 texel vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSFGm7XY9m4
looks like at least 20knts. Only 1 F18 beat the first N17. Nacra has a very strong presence at that regatta, being a Dutch company at the worlds largest cat race held in Holland.
[Linked Image]


Attached picture 2013-texelresults.gif
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/04/13 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
Originally Posted by Dazz
Apparently nacra have issues on deciding which way is up... reports of multiple masts being shipped in this configuration.

well done nacra cry


[Linked Image]

This is what I've come to expect out of Nacra quality control; to be fair they do appear to making an honest effort to fix it, but won't be doing so on my dime.

Jake,

This isn't the time or the place to burst your bubble. Suffice to say the only real in-house design work 2013/14 Nacra does is on the sails and rig, and even that isn't really Nacra, rather it's Performance Sails.

Again, none of it matters, it's the boat that the teams are stuck with for the next 7 years. I just hope the QC issues get sorted and teams don't have problems with their equipment that prevent them from training.



"bust my bubble"? WTF? All we're talking about is if the infusion is a stiffer platform than the I20 and it is hands down. To quote my southern kin folk "You guys are eat up wit it".
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/04/13 07:57 PM

added to which...you're not going to catch me defending Nacra's quality control.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/04/13 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by samc99us
Originally Posted by Dazz
Apparently nacra have issues on deciding which way is up... reports of multiple masts being shipped in this configuration.

well done nacra cry


[Linked Image]

This is what I've come to expect out of Nacra quality control; to be fair they do appear to making an honest effort to fix it, but won't be doing so on my dime.

Jake,

This isn't the time or the place to burst your bubble. Suffice to say the only real in-house design work 2013/14 Nacra does is on the sails and rig, and even that isn't really Nacra, rather it's Performance Sails.

Again, none of it matters, it's the boat that the teams are stuck with for the next 7 years. I just hope the QC issues get sorted and teams don't have problems with their equipment that prevent them from training.



"bust my bubble"? WTF? All we're talking about is if the infusion is a stiffer platform than the I20 and it is hands down. To quote my southern kin folk "You guys are eat up wit it".


Sam,
After what Jake had to do to fix the "quality control issues" on his Infusion, I seriously doubt you're bursting any bubbles about his view of it. The infusion process alone should make the 18 stiffer than the vinylester hand layup of the I/N-20.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/04/13 10:35 PM

That's a great result for a boat that's only been on the water for a short time, were the boats out of the box or did they have to do some alteration to the boats before the race?

Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
link to 2013 texel vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSFGm7XY9m4
looks like at least 20knts. Only 1 F18 beat the first N17. Nacra has a very strong presence at that regatta, being a Dutch company at the worlds largest cat race held in Holland.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/05/13 03:21 PM

Jake,

Certainly the Infusion is stiffer than the N20, but who engineered that layup? I bet it wasn't an in-house Nacra engineer (maybe a good thing?). Regardless, the lack of quality control on the process has me asking a lot of questions. I don't want to see N17's failing on teams because the factory isn't taping the seams on the outside after joining the hulls. That is all.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/05/13 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by JeffS
That's a great result for a boat that's only been on the water for a short time, were the boats out of the box or did they have to do some alteration to the boats before the race?

Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
link to 2013 texel vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSFGm7XY9m4
looks like at least 20knts. Only 1 F18 beat the first N17. Nacra has a very strong presence at that regatta, being a Dutch company at the worlds largest cat race held in Holland.
[Linked Image]


I think these were stock, at least foils, hulls, mast, rig.

http://www.nacra17class.com/roundtexel-2013-three-nacra-17s-within-first-5-boats-overall/

Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/05/13 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
Jake,

Certainly the Infusion is stiffer than the N20, but who engineered that layup? I bet it wasn't an in-house Nacra engineer (maybe a good thing?). Regardless, the lack of quality control on the process has me asking a lot of questions. I don't want to see N17's failing on teams because the factory isn't taping the seams on the outside after joining the hulls. That is all.


There are no in-house engineers (there weren't at the time the Infusion came about, anyway). However, I was at the factory while they were laying up hull number 5 or so and Gino Morrelli was there helping them sort out the bagging material placement and the infusion process....so the engineering on that end was pretty solid. The Infusion MKI is a Melvin and Morrelli design as are a lot of Nacra's products.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/05/13 05:07 PM

One of the problems with the Infusion is the lack of consistency.
Like with wine, some years are better than others (and give you less of a headache!).
Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/05/13 07:07 PM

Should have gone with the H16. Boats in place, mixed crews are normal.

Popcorn, anyone? wink

Mike
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/05/13 07:46 PM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/06/13 04:35 AM

On a more sailing based note. It is interesting to see how fast the cream is rising to the top at sail Melbourne. Bundock and Curtis, both Olympic medalists, in their second week of sailing the N17 are leading regatta despite a huge range of conditions and giving the young upstarts 12 months head start.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/08/13 08:06 PM

The best cat sailors tend to adopt quickly to new cat designs.

If we're talking about switching between two designs within the same discipline (e.g. spin boats), it's not too much of a shock to me for someone at Bundock's level to make an easy transition. Leading in their first regatta on the boat certainly is impressive, and undoubtedly frustrating to those with more time on the design.

Now, if a 420 team were able to pull this off, that would certainly get some attention. The brain trust at US Sailing was considering this as a pathway option...

Mike
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/09/13 02:24 PM

Bundock was second only to Franck Cammas at Catacup (with numerous Olympic hopefuls in the top 10). This result is of very little surprise to me.

Seriously Mike, 420's? US Sailing has heard of the F16 right? Regardless, the serious big fleet competition is still in F18's right now, if I was seriously gunning for an Olympic campaign slot I would move to France for the next 18 months, race the crap out of the F18 and Nacra 17 there, then return to the U.S for the qualifying races.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/09/13 02:43 PM

Yes, Sam, seriously. They are looking to grow Olympic sailors from youth, and don't see an active youth cat. 420s have two-person teams, spins and big fleets. At least, that was the logic.

They're learning that transitioning from sailing slow boats to cats doesn't work for the vast majority of sailors (although there are notable exceptions). Since there are very few cat sailors making these decisions, they don't understand why it doesn't work.

They have asked for our input. I did mention that the F16 is the most logical choice (yes, they are familiar with the boat), but the fleets are small and available boats are few (and expensive, although that seems to be less of a concern). The H16 is another good choice, but has other issues (non-spin in large fleets, few youth-only teams).

I agree with you that the F18 is a great training platform. It looks like the FL groups have it dialed in: get the kids crewing or steering on F18s with adults, and then team them up with other kids for F18/F16/N17 racing when they get their feet wet.

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/09/13 07:38 PM

Just saw this morning that Ravi (4th at F18 Americas, 1st at F16 Nats) was 5th at the Jensen Beach JOs over the weekend sailing in the 30 boat 420 fleet. The horror! Someone should probably talk to him about running away from big competitive fleets as fast as possible so he doesn't become less of a catsailor...

(ok, maybe a bit sarcastic)
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/09/13 08:35 PM

Quote
(ok, maybe a bit sarcastic)


Hmm.... this is the huge depressing problem right.... how to replenish the ranks..

We can either hope and pray that the events like the mixed olympic class on N17s or the AC will send us new blood.. (how's that working out?)

We can breed our own and pray that they are chips off the old blocks and want to race against dad and mom...
That hobie way of life SHOULD have generated a huge wave of 20 and 30 something sailors.... How is THAT working out?)


OR... we can try and recruit RACING SAILORS from the ranks of juniors who go racing...

Seems to me... this is the ONLY choice we have... and sadly... I don't see a pathway that current catamaran fleets support going forward.

Who out there has an idea... or program to replenish the fleet?

Posted By: H17cat

Re: Nacra 17 selected for 2020 Olympics in Japan - 12/09/13 09:45 PM

Well, the way to build fleets is to work with your local sailors. Last year, we took four Youth Teams to the Hobie Cat National Youth event in Lake Huntington, CA. Like all sailing, only a small percent of the sailors that take classes at Sail Sand Point, in Seattle, move on to racing. While we have six H-16's and next year, twelve Waves in our program, just a few sailors move on to racing. Still working on ways to improve the numbers. Hobie 101, Wed night racing, and increasing Hobie Cat Div 4 events to include Points Regattas and Fun events help.

No magic solution, just work with what you have, and increase the number of volunteers working on the problem.

May not results in Olympic sailors, which is a huge commitment, but will increase the number of racers. BTW, Seattle does have a long list of past Olympic Sailors, and one of our SSP Youth was on the Red Bull Youth America's Cup Team.
Caleb Tarleton
www.sailsandpoint.org
© 2024 Catsailor.com Forums