knives and helmets ?

I've seen several threads on other forums discussing this of recent, mainly the knife topic for cutting ropes when we get tangled up after a capsize.... however the topic seems to have shifted to helmets after recent deaths from drowning after being knocked out.

eg: http://brisbane18footers.com/

other issues have also be addressed on the other forums such as the Bethwaite designed trap harness system, no hooks to get tangled up with...
(google - images - Bethwaite trap harness )



seems very odd to me that sailing is one of very few sports that doesn't require any form of head protection or other personal safety gear other than a lifejacket .... and yet we are experiencing deaths from the small club day to the major AC races

other sporting groups seem to be well advanced on the helmet issue....

rock climbers
cyclists
baseball
NASCAR pit crews
skateboarders
jockeys & horse riders
snowboarders
BMX / mountain bikes
rollerblade & skaters
water & snow skiers

and yet all we have is the personal choice of a sun hat for those that are a tad thin in the hair dept.....


how safe is our sport ???

G'day Pirate have you done a search on how many drownings there have been on beachcats in the whole world in the last 10 years? You may be surprised at our sport being the safest thing you can do on a moving vehicle. Modern high aspect sails mean shorter, light section, round booms that do no harm and attaching more things to your body is just adding more things to get hooked up on.

Women's soccer has the highest injury rate of any sport in the US.

They have shin pads, right?

has anyone been seriously injured/killed on a foiling moth?

As safe as you imagine it to be. We ain't got gills.

perhaps the questions should be:

Do you consider the sport of beachcat racing "safe" (define the term)?

If not, what can be done to increase safety?

I will gladly wear a helmet on this thing, might go and see it next week actually:

The HCA-NA people have been talking ALOT about helmets, with us basically ending up with just making strong suggestions at youth teams wearing them (without a hard fast rule)and we (like the skiing peeps out there) are seeing more and more helmets in use. I would guess there were 10 sailors in Galveston with helmets on (and another 80 that wish they had them on their heads during friday's big blow)
Greg Thomas from Hobie Cat spoke on this subject at the AGM we had and are going to make an effort to have a stronger marketing effort on the helmets that they carry and hopefully that will move us forward into general acceptance of helmets on the multihulls.

The key word is "REQUIRED." This is the one word that makes everyone crazy, even if it's the best idea in the world.

I believe that ISAF attempted to mandate safer trapeze systems, that idea got squashed before it was implemented.

Realistically, recommendations are the way to go, along with cultural / marketing efforts to implement the safer ideas, as Chris mentioned above.

Mike

I wear a knife and am looking for a nice comfortable helmet.

I do not agree with that.

Your probably right bacho, I was talking about the little booms on high aspect sails, I don't have a problem with anyone that wants to wear a helmet, I encourage kids to wear them because they seem to be on older boats or dinghys with old fashioned heavy booms. Statistically I should wear a helmet in my car on the way to sailing then leave it in my car when I get there and it would do me more good

ironic really..... we wrap the kids up in the best protective gear we belive is suitable and yet we don't apply the same logic to ourselves



It always horrified me when I was car racing, the number of fellow racers that had a $500 seat and a $30 helmet staggered me

seems to me that most of us are very complacent when it comes down to our own safety.

With regards to knockin my noggin, I have hard far more close calls sailing monohulls than I have on the cat and the time I spend on those pales in comparison to the time I spend on cats. I can't really think of a time on the cat where I wished I had a helmet. The lighter booms on the cats today are a lot safer IMHO.

Even so, I promised myself that I would never jest about anyone wearing a helmet..ever.

I've bruised, banged, cut and scraped just about every other part of my body while racing my cat, but the only time I've bashed my skull was when I was pushing the beach wheels up under it on shore and ran my head into the dolphin striker! I bled for a week! I doubt if I'd had a helmet, it would have been on me, on the beach pushing my cat wheels under the boat.

Put me down for no on the helmets on beach cats, at least until I can afford something a lot faster, like a foiling Phantom or an AC 72.

If you want a light weight helmet that won't make your head too hot, look at hockey helmets.

http://www.totalhockey.com/product/IMS_7.0_CUSTOM_Helmet/itm/13637-2/?mtx_id=0

That helmet is the bomb!

Maybe we should all start wearing helmets to give the impression of "danger" and thus creating an EXTREME sport that the younger generation will want to pursue.

I was thinking more of a bicycle type helmet so it doesn't screw up your hearing.

I've come in contact with both round and square booms (thankfully at relatively low speeds) and they feel about the same. Kind of like getting hit with a baseball bat vs. a 2x4. You tell me if you can feel the difference

Given all the things you can hit with your noggin as you tinkerbell toward the foresaty, what type of helmet would offer the best compromise of protection vs. ease of use?

The one "guard" I did find most helpful was the shin and forearm protection integrated in some wetsuits. Seems I was always dragging my shin or forearm against something sharp (daggarboard, shroud, beam bolt, etc.)

Regarding the boom, the spin boats seem to keep the main reasonably taught on the downwinds, so wild boom swinging gybes are pretty rare. Nearly knocked my son out with the TheMightyHobie18 boom a few years ago though.

As for Peter Pans and forestays, your doing it all wrong. If you're going to stuff it, do it right. It has to be hard enough to send them 20ft in front of the boat like I did on the reach at Sarasota. Totally screwed up my trap and cunningham take-up bungies, but my son sure had fun . I still have a sore spot on my thigh where I slammed into the dagger.

I wear a helmet when I mountain bike, and like a seat belt in a car, I feel totally naked without it. I suppose if the right kind of helmet was developed (light, breathable, available brim (like a baseball cap), I suppose I could be talked into it.

I saw the effect of a Infusion pitchpoling and the skipper hit the mast and cracked his kayak helmet. That's when I started shopping for a helmet. Also when my wife started wearing one.

That reminds me: I have an uncle who hit a tree after running over some sand on his motorcycle. The helmet cracked, but he walked away.

People still fight like mad to not have mandatory helmet laws (taking away their "freedom"). Don't know if this has changed, but for the longest time in RI, helmets are required for motorcycle passengers (of any age), but not for the pilots.

Lots of similarities to some points made above.

Mike

I wear a helmet 99% of the time while riding a motorcycle. I don't believe in helmet laws. Its your life, do as you choose. Minors, that's a different story, but if you don't mind your kid being a vegetable, then by all means, let em' skip the helmet. It doesn't need to be legislated.

Same with seatbelt laws. Its my life, I can do with it as I please. I do have a friend that would've been almost certainly killed had he not been thrown out of the car. But to be fair, that is a freak thing

There are those who would make a good case that if your kid becomes a vegetable through your negligence, it's unfair for the rest of the population to have to care for your child the rest of its life (through insurance premiums and taxes), but that's for a different thread.

But, thanks for helping me make the point that mandatory safety rules are extremely unpopular...

Mike

Thinking about it - these days when we do go in (f18 and I presume f16 would be similar), usually both of us are thrown clear of the mast and wind up in the water. By far the biggest danger is the back of the daggers if you catch one on the way thru which is nearly a body impact and can hurt no end. You'd need body armour a-la motorcross to protect you from that one.

Foiling boats?? Hmmm - really depends how much faster they are going I suppose. If they are getting 30+ knots then yeah - may need to rethink this helmet thing.

Here's a hockey helmet with a removable cage, but your crew may want to keep the cage on!

Only $89!

http://www.sportsauthority.com/prod...igkw=Hockey+HElmet&parentPage=search

I remember when Florida went from mandatory motorcycle helmets to optional. The motorcycle accident death rate went from about 45/yr. average up to over 500/yr.

Many years ago I owned a BMW R100S road bike, one day a drunk in a Cadilac T-Boned us (wife on back, 2mo. pregnant) and we flew over his caddy and bounced down US1. As I was bouncing down the road, I watched my wife's head bouncing up and down like a basketball, I was thinking, "Glad I wore my helmet, or this would be very ugly!"

Motorcycles aren't that dangerous if you know how to ride, it's the idiots in the cars that will kill you! But I always wore my helmet.

We're going with this model for our junior sailing kids.



http://www.amazon.com/Shred-Ready-Sesh-Water-Helmet/dp/B006NJETFE

I wear a leg knive already for years and the only problem I have had is that it once got stuck in my open net tramp.
While I was hanging half overboard!

I don't wear a helmet, but I once broke my nose by the swinging boom in a break.
But its obvious that a helmet doesn't protect you for a broken nose (except if you use a iron mask protection too)

More than one person has lost or broken teeth in a bad capsize, and there was one close call at the H16s in October this year; so the masks may not be such a bad idea.

And for those of you calculating the risk/reward scenarios; remember, none of this equipment is necessary when things are going along as planned. By definition, this stuff is needed only when everything goes haywire.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Mike

The safest thing would be to not get on a sailboat.

Safest thing is to stay on the sailboat

Have there been instances of sailors struck and injured by a competitors centreboards after going overboard in a pitchpole? Some boards seem to be razor thin and hitting anyone at 20 knots would do real damage.

I coach high school sailing in Boston and the helmet issue has been a major point of discussion at the last couple league meetings. Many schools are making helmets mandatory for their sailors because they have been losing one or two players to concussions every season. I think with the current attention TBIs are getting in football, hockey, etc. we are going to see a strong movement towards helmets in Jr. Sailing.

At MIT, Fran (sailing master) is also very concerned about the head injuries and has bought helmets for his sailors. They are optional to wear, and Fran is also trying to solve the problem by switching to carbon booms on the FJs and raising the gooseneck. We've also gone to Gnav vangs to eliminate extra purchases flying across the ****.

In general, I have found kids are more likely to get hit in light air when they aren't paying attention, than in heavy breeze when they gybe with a hand on the vang, etc.

I am glad to see helmets at the High School level being pressed. That will make it easier for us as time goes on for the younger sailors to adapt helmets as a necessary item, like the harness of life jacket.

Most kids today grow up wearing helmets on bikes, most of us did not. I think the kids will be the easy sell.

Mike

I tested Karl's old N20 daggarboard with my face once. The board is pretty strong.

and we're talking about helmets and knives, right?

What about a Helmet WITH knives?

and frickin' laser beams.

Sounds ripe for "here, hold my beer" moments

We just ordered 30 Shred Ready SESH helmets for our junior team and sailing classes. Retail is about $47. We got them for $26.50.

mea culpa for my tightwad post..hope I can still post here,

My teen age daughter & I went out in 18 - 20 with a chase boat following us..stuffed the leeward bow hard on a port tack..stood straight up & popped back up but we were all off balance..then we got blown over..I landed in the sail but she hit the mast with the side of her head..got her on the chase boat and shes all right we're getting helmets for the windy rides..dont know if I'll get her back out in anything over 10 mph..ps I had trouble getting back on after righting..little tired..anyone use handgrabs or rope ladder tied to front beam to assist?

Forward sailing has impact vests and helmets.


Both highly recommended and used on the M32, and extreme 40 I was on.

don't worry, most people are tightwads here one time or another


yes big issue. discussed in detail here, try searching

but from my exp, rope ladders don't work as well as you would think (or need lots of practice) becuase they simply push under the beam and are not much help, plus need special storage

righting line with knots are a little help but not all that helpful

I have found location location location is key (where on the boat you try to get back on from)

front beam - almost impossible on my boat, saps all my remaining strenght

rear beam - impossible

solution for me on my boat ... aft of the shrouds, I "jump" up a little and grab my trap handle. use this to anchor and lift a foot/feet up near the rear beam (least freeboard area) and then lift my waist / torso up using my feet and hands (still on trap handle)

in a pinch, if you can get to it your jib sheet can assist too

This is what I do too and I'm 52 and sail an F18 and I can get on the boat easily and in short order. The key thing to remember is to move your a$$. If you have a self tacking jib and don't have a quick release system the jib will pull the boat off the wind relatively quickly and the boat will take off like a rocket.

Rich, Source for the helmet and vest? Thanks!

Dave

Dave.... you make a key point

If you have a self tacking jib and don't have a quick release system the jib will pull the boat off the wind relatively quickly and the boat will take off like a rocket.

How do you get there? swim under hull.... go forward and around the bow? go aft under the tramp... around the rudders and forward to the shroud... trap handle?

Do you have a quick release on your jib's clew? (and let it flog when you right the boat....) then reattach the sheets and off you go...

What does your quick release look like?

Final point.... Who needs to move their butt... you or your quicker and more nimble crew who can ride the boat up... climb over the beam and get to the rudders to park the boat ASAP?

I've been wearing a helmet this season due to a concussion I got skiing in March. It was a minor concussion that lingered for 2.5 months- very annoying.

On the F18 I've been wearing a kiteboarding helmet Tripp let me borrow. On the Moth I've worn a Bern helmet that MIT provides at the sailing pavilion. I haven't really noticed having either of them on.

Unfortunately I tore a ligament in my hand during the statue race, so the helmet hasn't been needed for a while!

I don't have a jib quick release on my boat and there isn't one on my skippers boat. I've seen quick release systems that use a snap shackle or simple S hook at the clew.

When I'm sailing on my skippers boat I can pretty much right the boat on my own and she just rolls up on deck as the boat comes up. I always have a plan B just in case something doesn't go as planned, which is for me to high tail it to the stern holding onto the righting line until I've got a firm grip on the foot strap. From there I pull myself forward until I can reach the skippers trap and I use it to help pull myself on the boat. Plan B is always in motion because the sooner I can get on the boat the sooner we are back to racing and I hate when she says... waiting on you grandpa. The quicker you're on the boat the less likely it's going to get away from you. It is something we practiced and I think it was time well spent.

http://www.forward-sailing.com/technical-sailing-clothing?zenid=b607c30cd6a3b5a9712020c4d8480f77
They have a lot of sailing gear and other things like snuffer covers ect.

I know a feller' that is starting to bring these into the US. My crew is having a little brain surgery on Friday so we're tossing around the idea of these for F18 nationals....although, they match very poorly with my green color scheme.

http://www.vaikobi.com/products/vaikobi-performance-water-helmet-ce-1385-approved

dont you know someone who does vinyl wraps?

Yeah, but that is a different guy.

Perhaps using the blow-torch technique to get the wrap to fit on the helmet while being worn is not considered a "best practice"?

Ding hit the nail right on the head: Practice!!!

Capsizing and swiiming near your boat are probably the last things anyone wants to do with their sailing time, but there is probably nothing more valuable.

Mike

How will a helmet help you if the other sailors start throwing knives at each other? Maybe a shield like captain America would be better.

A funny thing a hockey player said; "I wear a cup and not a helmet because I can always get someone to do my thinking for me."

Luckily I'm the mf-ing master of capsizing.

What's the difference between these and any of the Whitewater kayak helmets available?

Only because I've taken a partial hiatus from racing. I've capsized a Wave...

Mike

That's talent you can't teach right there.