Full foiling Nacra

Have you guys seen this yet?

I just poached it from SA [video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjVEOoNPXWc#t=6[/video]

30knots?

come on .....

I dunno man...these guys are flying on this 18 footer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taJYT4eAiWE

Same boat but under spinnaker, notice that instead of the Nacra C shaped boards, he's using more of a lazy L shape dagger, and T rudders, which I'm guessing have to be inserted from below, which would be a huge PITA when launching off the beach.

BUT...if they could come up with a simple way to insert the boards/rudders and if they build the entire boat of Carbon, it could be a game changer r.e. beach cat speeds. Nobody could afford one, but it would be a hellofa fast boat!

With the boat stored at a sailing club the T-foil rudders could be left in place.
Rudderheads could be built to kick up above the stern for easier insertion of the blades.

With all the development going on towards full foiling on cats (and Lasers and their grandmother) I think we might be seeing the future of beachcats.

Or make the rudder brackets two piece that bolt together on the beach. Then you could after market to fit existing boats, using existing bolt holes.

Any idea of an approximate price?

Oh ideas are free......material is something else.

Phantom 44K,from SA.

The phantom is €26,000 which is about $33,000.

The "foiling" fantom?

I think you guys might have missed the type of boat in the very first few seconds of the vid, sssshhhh its the F16 Nacra.

Its being reported elsewhere on the web that an aftermarket upgrade kit of new boards and modified case will allow the F16 to also foil. Mmmm shake those money trees boys and all those wishes may come true.

it very clearly says Carbon 20 on the side of the boat

Yes I did a double take first on the fact that it was a solo sailor and thought aha F16, then saw the F20 logo and thought nah F20 but then looked again and the size of the sailor in relation to the boat is really big. Then the vid flashes to the F20 and the sailors look more in perspective. Probably a trick of viewing angle but then on the F16 forum there are two photos of an F16 with curved boards.

Mmmm very iteresting as the F16 certainly has enough horsepower ( power to weight ) to probably be a pretty good candidate for foils.I must get my 2001 Stealth T foils out of the cupboard.

Yes apparently that is and old number. That was the price they announced in October/November. I see they now say €28,260 or about $38,000

http://www.sail-innovation.com/products/boats/flying-phantom/

This is kind of interesting. When was the last time we saw a boat technology like this develop into a high dollar one-off novelty item? I came on the scene about the time the spin boats were coming out - were they that way or were there just a bunch of early adopters and "poof" there were spin classes?

You could probably look at the Hobie 18SX as this kind of boat. It was an outlier...an adaptation of an existing platform for the new cutting edge technology. I bet people then were thinking what I'm thinking now..."well, that will put more of our sport out of the reach of the common or new sailor" and "I don't see myself getting into THAT". To some extent, the development and evolution to the spinnaker boats we have today did some of that. Our entry level classes (H16 aside) are now all but non-existent.

The big drawback I see for the foiling sailing is the lake sailing I mostly do. We watched Bora come to "train" on his moth on Lake Keowee (his mother lives in the area) and even he had a really difficult time keeping up with the shifty breeze and spent a lot of time in and out of the water. Short of a whole lot of righting practice, I'm not sure he gained much from the experience. I can't imagine trying to race a foiling cat in our normal conditions (or is that what they said about spinnakers too?) ;-)

Look what they've done to an old Laser!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxb6BRe7Weo

If they can figure it out, surely we can too, and for a heck of a lot less than $38,000.

The boat specs from the Flying Phantom website above:

The boat is not just a modified F18 but it is entirely designed to foil, the only common part is the shape of the hulls. The Flying Phantom is wider (3m) and lighter (165kg).

After an extensive of different foils and rudders configurations, we came up with a combination of "L" shaped foils and "T" shaped rudders, providing pitch and heave stability in full flight but also being competitive in light winds.

The carbon / honeycomb / epoxy hulls in combination with a carbon tapered mast built in an autoclave result in significant weight reduction, the increased total beam improves the stability while foiling.



Foiling cats are the future of our sport and offer new sensations and previously unknown performance levels, foiling from 7 knots of wind and able to reach more than 30 knots above the water.

The revolution is on, realize your dream, fly above the water !

Specifications;

Design team: Martin Fischer

Development team: Alex Udin, Franck Cammas and Groupama sailing team

Class: One Design

Lenght: 5,52m / 18"

Width: 3,00m

Weight: 165kg

Mast: Tapered / Carbon autoclaved / 9,5m

Appendices: T-foil rudders +L-shape foiling dagger boards carbon autoclaved

Hulls construction: Carbon fiber / honeycomb sandwich / epoxy

Main: SI VXM Carbon Technora membrane / 18sqm with mast

Jib: SI VXM Carbon Technora membrane/ 5,5sqm

Gennaker: SI Polyester / 24sqm

Max speed: + 30 knots



Price: 28 260 Euros ex tax

Seems they did build it out of carbon, and the mast is carbon, and they widened it too, no wonder the price went wayyyy up, but $38K?? Ouch!

If you really wanted to "Fly above the water", you could be flying aerobatics in a nice airplane or going 200 knots for that kind of money!

http://www.barnstormers.com/listing_images.php?id=838346&ZOOM=e28aebc9ec06265ee5b4f895d12131f1

Jake
I think it is easy to look at the boats and think they led the parade.

In hindsight, I believe that there were notable distance races that people wanted to compete, win and set records. Events drive the technology we use.
The pursuit of these trophies drove the interest in more and faster. The Worrel 1000 was the big driver of course...eg... we used Worrel chutes and then mere mortals like ourselves got into the spin game with events like the New England 100, the Statue of liberty, Down the Bay, and of course the Florida distance races. Eventually, you got the N20 class racing buoys along with Hobie Tigers and F18's.

The world changed.. the super boats, like the M20 and the current Nacra Carbon 20 and the current foiling boats all need a couple of big events that people want to do. Most of the races still exist.... still the super boats have not taken off in the market place, in part because of the price tag... but still... the question... What are you going to do with it... does not have a great answer... The interest in the distance races has dropped year after year.

So.... Do you think anyone will try and foil their way through the steeple chase and set a new record?

That will be real interesting when they get to the mud flats!

or sea grass

I would try...in a heartbeat!

I was talking more about the production boats but you bring up an interesting aspect of this. What we saw in the development and creation of spinnaker equipped cats was largely created by the distance racers in the Worrell. This was because it was an open boat event where the boats had to meet only a few parameters and we saw home builds and all sorts of stuff designed to go fast. The first thing I thought of when I saw the Phantom was how fast you could get up the Florida coast if you could keep it in one piece.

People have been tinkering with foiling cats long before I started sailing in '99 ... so this isn't incredibly new. I suppose in the absence of open distance races, the America's Cup has served as the motivating force in a more in-direct way.

I'm interested though, will this foiling thing stick or will it be a fad? It's expensive and requires a new skill set. The Hobie Trifoiler and Windrider Rave didn't do all that well...why is this different?

Members of the Tornado class pushed for spis in the games. First olympic games with spi on the T was 2004, but development started before 2000.

Hobie Tiger had a spi option. F18 class was started with a spi as standard equipment.


I would not say that events pushed the technology as Mark seems to argue. It is sailors who push the egdes and work on stuff they think is fun/interesting. Equipment is built and then we get the events. The sparkplug is the idea and the doers who build and market.

With the AC and the C-class now going foiling, I am pretty certain that foiling on cats will catch on big time.

Please do remember that cat sailing is enjoyed in Europe as well when finding the "source of all spis" on cats in the Worrel and other US events.

Isn't that about the same price as a foiling moth?

Both good questions. To the latter (price) question I'm sure it's only a matter of time/interest before technologies for design/production reduce the overall cost to something akin to "reasonable" for a high-performance boat.

The "Fad" thing is more nebulous. As you indicate, it is expensive and requires a whole new skill set. Right now we're seeing the 'early-adopters' developing the platforms through trial and error. I suspect it will eventually disseminate to high-performance racing oriented people and therefore show a bit of success albeit at the expense of further dividing up the small racing community into another fleet.

But, to be a game-changer in terms of its long term success, I suspect it will have to be a technology that can appeal to a wider set of sailors: namely those part-time racers (cost) and recreational sailors (cost vs. ease of use vs. durability)

The H16 is a perennial favorite because you can race (OD or PHRF) if you want, or strap a cooler on there and go gunkhole for a weekend with family or strippers. The price is reasonable for both racer and non-racer, the boat is reasonably durable, etc.

Will the same be true for a foiling cat? I don't see many moths out for a cruise with kids (they probably should), and I can't imagine the challenge for foiling on the Steeplechase (sandbars) or Miami Key Largo route (seagrass). Would you be willing to take non-sailors out on your $40,000 boat "just to tool around"?

Rolf, the issue is not what cool stuff can inventive people come up with... and perhaps catch on... Gordon Isco was foiling his hobie 18 a long long time ago... The issue is what drives groups of people to go racing... and the answer is... Its the race.
The T is a particularly bad example of the gear driving anything. The class had a trials in Miami to test out course configs and new gear by way of sailplans (spin, non spin and modificiations). Everybody brought their cool stuff. The trend back then was to push for trapazoid courses to max fan appeal.... eg. the blast reach legs (now part of the AC racing). Booth and Forbes showed that the square top T was faster around the Trapazoid course then the spin boats. Smyth was doing the spin tornado at the trials having done lots of worrels by then ... My comment at the bar to forbes was... wow... every rec sailor on the planet wants a cat with a spin... Why would the Olympics Class not go that way. ... His answer... well.. it's about the Olympics.
Indeed, it was some members of the class.... because the actual class rank and file voted the spin down... and then magic happened and ISAF got their way with the T class spinoff and the olympic sailors were going to the spin for the Olympics. The rank and file adjusted their opinion and voted to go along.

The event most definitely drove the equipment.
(The Worrel was conceived and run as non stop on Hobie 16s... and then bigger better faster took over)

Jake makes a good point about the Trifoiler and the Rave. They remained cool toys and not racers... My suggestion is that there were no races that people wanted to (or could do) do on these boats to make them viable.

For a current example... take a look at the single handed with spin class. Builders have generated the Nacra 17 and then the Nacra F17. the Marstrom 18 (A class with spin) and the F16 single hander.. There is no event that motivates sailors to race and these boats don't really have a class. Instead the Hobie 17 and the A class chug along. The A class incorporates new technology daily but its the racing that keeps the interest up... not the technology.

Here you go Jay, you can get a used Moth for only $16,000.

http://www.int-moth.us/used-mothgear-list/

The SA article says "The rudders are mounted in lifting cassettes; not for adjustment underway, but for beaching and launching. The rake adjustments come via the cassette mounts; instead of normal pintles and gudgeous, the cassettes attach to the boat with uniballs to allow the boat to be properly balanced with angle-of-attack adjustments to the entire rudder and elevator"

What are uniball attachments?

I'm good... got something a little slower, a little easier, and holds more rum

unsure of a boat uniball but I'm well aware of what they are in motor vehicles





usually used as suspension ends.....

Those are what we should see, I imagine there is a stud in the ball that can screw in or out of the transom to adjust rake. My jeep was full of those.

I've seen the bladerider moths down into $8k.

That's because the Mach 2 control system fixed the issues with the Bladerider system, making it easier for the average joe to foil and faster for the racer. You can still have a blast on the bladeriders etc. if you live in the right local; personally I'd rather own an A.

I have a personal goal to break the outright record from Annapolis to Oxford. This would be the perfect weapon for said race, but my money tree is short ~$40K+shipping+spares. I'd rather focus my efforts on shaking loose the existing U.S super cats to come race the Seacart 30.

30 knots Ain't SQUAT, by today's standards ; i can
an Have done Close to that on less than $2,000 worth
of kite-boarding equipment and a home-made kite-board.
Until Sail-rocket came along, the speed record for kites
in water was 55.65 knots.
But Sail-rocket spent an excess of $300,000 to break a
record that a kite-Dude had done on less than $5K worth
of equipment!!
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/24/s...ourse-for-speed-sailing-record.html?_r=0

So --- spending $30K to $40K on a cat that only does
30knots on water ; yea --- that's a bit of a Joke to me (.)
sorry -----------------------------------------------NOT !!

I sail on a Hobie-21se, because i can't bring dates on
my kite-board with me ; and YES, i "Like" sailing Cats
as much as most Anyone on this forum !!

Seriously though:"for $40K, you should be pushing 40knots")
or ya Ain't getting much value for your dollar.

Now Let the crap responses roll ; i'm Ready for Ya !!


Bille

If you just want to go fast than it would be much cheaper to pickup a kiteboard or windsurfer ($$/kts ratio).

The cool thing about sailing for me is the competitive element where all out speed is less important for the overall experience.

Very true..... and I would add... the ability to sail with a team mate adds to the complexity and fun factor as well.

Finally.... I have never gotten a request from a kite board or a sailboard to compete in one of our point to point races... Boats make this doable. (now Billie... boats with cub holders..... THAT is what you should take some grief on!)

These boats are another option, a new category of the sport of sailing fast. Apparent wind sailing as it is called.
Also there is the facet of being able to do your 30knts boat speed with 2 people on board in like 12 knts of wind. maybe less.
Many locations have 10-12 knts of wind fairly regularly.
Once the wind is in the 30s then a yacht or a board make much more sense. Although a small cat makes for a real challenge, almost an extreme sport in the 30+ knots wind.

i can buy a motorcycle that will go 100mph for $1000

u can push the sport
or find another one that is "faster"

If you want to go fast on the cheap, get a modern litre sport bike. Less than $15k will push you over 180mph.

Or, get a plane ticket. $400 and you're pushing 500mph.

if you can get yourself into a low orbit... 15000 MPH +

have we circled back to the "why do you sail?" question?

Cup holders are nice, even nicer than having to pack all your food/water on you back.

I tied off the helm (cheap temporary autopilot) and wandered forward to the cooler in the forepeak (it is a bit tight up there with spare sails, but I like keeping weight forward). Made a PB&J sammmich and grabbed a soda. Wandered back to my seat on the net and grabbed the traveler for a minor course correction.

"Bobbed" around (avg 6 knots uni-rig) in 10 TWS for about 3 hours watching the land disappear. Considered continuing on (course 180) to Key West, but that might worry the Mrs. since I didn't file a float plan. merry christmas, indeed.

Going 30 kts sounds fun, but seems like a lot of work when I could do 12-15 pretty cheaply and easily.

And I watched a pontoon boat ram its trailer while loading - enough to push the truck forward a little. I knew I was in for a treat when I saw it had a dozen fenders on each side and came in to the ramp at about 10 knots

I like passing the pontoon boats, going downwind under spinnaker on my Blade, right here on my lake when it's blowing good. It's been blowing pretty good here the last couple days , and warm too! Great time to be on the lake instead of at the mall!

+1, although my "lake" is about 90 miles wide and saltwater

Yes, i Can do that ; still wouldn't pay $40K for a cat
that's only 8-10kt faster than my Hobie-21se though !!

Going 30knots , simply does NOT justify spending that kind of
money for a catamaran ; when i paid $1,500 for my H-21
that's only 20% slower than your foiling boat.
Now if that boat did 40+ knots on the water ;
NOW your Talking !!!

Bille