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Beach Wheels .......... question ??????

Posted By: Pirate

Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/18/14 12:02 AM

So I'm at the lake and the beach wheels are at home in a slight state of disrepair, not an issue as there are several people that can give me a lift to the waters edge
no problems...... until I decide to go sailing by myself, ok so I have to fix up the beach wheels....
blush

then the grey matter started ticking over......


Why is it when we are at the beach we watch powerboats being unloaded, back it down the ramp.... boat floats off and is held and vehicle and trailer drive out.

simple grin


the trailer 'sinks' during the loading / unloading process and the boat floats on or off as required



I've seen it hundreds of times as most of you probably have as well, where cat sailors seem to have a fight in extracting the beach trolley from out under the boat when launching or indeed when trying to get the wheels back under the boat so it can be brought back up on the beach.....




so can someone explain to me why our beach trolleys float confused



just asking
sick

Posted By: Jake

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/18/14 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by PIRATE
So I'm at the lake and the beach wheels are at home in a slight state of disrepair, not an issue as there are several people that can give me a lift to the waters edge
no problems...... until I decide to go sailing by myself, ok so I have to fix up the beach wheels....
blush

then the grey matter started ticking over......


Why is it when we are at the beach we watch powerboats being unloaded, back it down the ramp.... boat floats off and is held and vehicle and trailer drive out.

simple grin


the trailer 'sinks' during the loading / unloading process and the boat floats on or off as required



I've seen it hundreds of times as most of you probably have as well, where cat sailors seem to have a fight in extracting the beach trolley from out under the boat when launching or indeed when trying to get the wheels back under the boat so it can be brought back up on the beach.....




so can someone explain to me why our beach trolleys float confused



just asking
sick



Because we need to get enough surface area on the tires so they don't sink into soft sand. To get that surface area, they need big tires. They also need to be light so we can thrown them over our shoulders. These two factors drive what we have today.

The question you should probably be asking, is why don't we back our trailers in to the water to launch the boats?
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/18/14 01:29 AM

No, No, No, do not go there!!!

Ian Farrier has designed a trailer for the new F 22 that is designed with carbon and rubber - not sure about the axle and rims, but there should very little stainless, aluminum, or galvanized in the construction. The F 22 supposedly features zero metal in its design & construction.

Fresh water launching and retrieval makes a huge difference, of course.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/18/14 02:58 AM

There are no "easy" answers...

Beach dollies: lots of work, but affords the freedom of not being dependent on a ramp, which in many places, means long lines and/or extra fees.

Ramp launching... Well, it's not easier unless there is no wind and the water is dead flat. Otherwise, it's tough to center the boat on the trailer, as the rear crossbar is significantly lower in the water, and your hulls will typically float over the top of any side rollers you may have. Even if you don't have side rollers, the hulls will easily slide off center as you pull the trailer out of the water.

Corrosion to the trailer due to salt water is another issue, but easily mitigated by a fresh water rinse (although, you can't reach everywhere that the salt water does when the trailer is sunk). One major problem is the tendency of hot bearings to shed their grease and injest cold water (easily mitigated with Bearing Buddies, which are not standard equipment).

Mike
Posted By: Pirate

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/18/14 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Because we need to get enough surface area on the tires so they don't sink into soft sand. To get that surface area, they need big tires. They also need to be light so we can thrown them over our shoulders. These two factors drive what we have today.

The question you should probably be asking, is why don't we back our trailers in to the water to launch the boats?



[Linked Image]
I can understand the concept fully when we are talking pneumatic tyres and the need for ultra lightweight trolleys, obviously we have the problem where the 'floatation' is enhanced by the pneumatic tyres........

but what about the plastic barrel style ......
[Linked Image]

why are these sealed so that they too float ?
the only logical reason I can come up with is for assistance in structural strength of the lightweight plastic... otherwise I'm at a loss as to why.


So we 'need' a wheel that will move over sand, the pneumatic tyre and the plastic barrel both do this with the slight advantage going to the pneumatic tyre as it has some flex in the tyres sidewalls compared to the rigid plastic wheel.....
equals a slightly smoother ride for the boat
smile



then the grey matter started grinding over.......




[Linked Image]

not wide enough, weight is unknown, and price wouldn't be all that friendly......
eek


but great potential

wink
Posted By: bacho

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/18/14 01:12 PM

I think sinking beach wheels would be much harder to use than what we have now. It would also add to the weight that has to be yanked out of the water. Getting a boat onto the wheels in the water can be a chore, but at least the wheels float and keep themselves under the boat. I can just imagine the scene at the dock after someone lost their wheels to the bottom in 5-6 feet of water on a cold day.



I wouldn't really wanting to be dipping my sail boxes full of gear into the water either.
Posted By: srm

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/18/14 01:23 PM

Ideally, the wheels would be neutrally bouyant so the axle/cradles float right at the surface. I'm thinking a solid/non-pneumatic wheel like shown above and then flotation added to the axle. You definitley don't want the wheels to sink, you just want the axle to sit about six or ten inches lower in the water.

sm
Posted By: Andinista

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/18/14 01:43 PM

Good idea. Either sinking or neutrally buoyant. If weigth is not sacrificed it would be a great product. Otherwise, i prefer to live with the pain of getting them in and out the hulls, it's not such a big deal really. I guess that the central handle can facilitate that a bit. Also it is probably a bigger problem for skeg hulls?(deeper)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/18/14 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
Getting a boat onto the wheels in the water can be a chore


I just push my cat out into slightly deeper water and slide the wheels under without any problem
Posted By: bacho

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/18/14 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by MN3
Originally Posted by bacho
Getting a boat onto the wheels in the water can be a chore


I just push my cat out into slightly deeper water and slide the wheels under without any problem


I normally do mine in deeper water as well. In some situation we use 2-3 people per boat, so I can see the desire for a less buoyant wheel system. If going up and down a boat ramp is the norm, I would suggest the narrower wheelbarrow style wheels seen on A class dollies.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/18/14 04:40 PM

a heavier set of beach wheels would slow Jake down even more than the positively buoyant ones when he sails off with them still attached to the underside.
Posted By: bacho

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/18/14 06:20 PM

Maybe we should be developing retractable landing gear?
Posted By: DennisMe

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/21/14 11:43 AM

Richard Woods actually tried that once a while ago. He built wheels into one of his micro-multihull cabin cruisers.
I think it was too complicated to make and added too much weight / drag.
You could probably make an external bracket that attached to the front beam and allowed you to swing the wheels up above the water, but I'm not sure it would look too sexy...

Posted By: northsea junkie

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/21/14 01:17 PM

I would give a lot for a good and workable design of such a gear.

When I was starting to build my own cat, I gave it a lot of thought, but never came up with something which could work in a bumpy sea and a striking brake.

I sail always single-handed and because I'm getting older, it becomes harder and harder to pull my cat without beachwheels alone in and out the water. And the limp and soft sandcondition on my spot makes that even worse.

So, any ideas?????????
Posted By: bacho

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/21/14 01:55 PM

Ronald,

How much does your Boat weigh? What size wheels are you currently using?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/21/14 02:09 PM

when we camp with our cats, often we will put a set of wheels on top of the front bows (a real pain w/ a spin bridal) and take the wheels to the islands with us. This allows us to pull our cats up on a beach overnight. They are a huge pita and i would never sail with them except for this reason. the windage is extremely noticeable, the weight effects the coe, and they look terrible.

If i needed to take them more than a few miles, i would probably try Hobie Gary's method (a few pvc tubes with boat fenders on them)
Originally Posted by DennisMe

You could probably make an external bracket that attached to the front beam and allowed you to swing the wheels up above the water, but I'm not sure it would look too sexy...

Posted By: northsea junkie

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/21/14 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
Ronald,

How much does your Boat weigh? What size wheels are you currently using?


My cat, fully loaded, weighs between 140-150 kg. So its a big drag over the sand.

Ofcourse I have a bigwheel (21x12-8) trax with me. I even use that for the transport between my house and the beach (about 1 km).

The problem with singlehanded sailing that you miss a couple of hands keeping the cat at the floodline while you are storing or fetching the trax .

As I have explained some time ago, I cannot leave my cat unguarded too long on the beach.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/21/14 03:06 PM

hmmm.... design a Carbon Fiber, robotic "spider" that can walk under the trampoline, rise up and connect with the four inside corners of the beams (front and rear), lift the cat and walk it up the beach...

Or, motorized/waterproof beach wheels that you control with remote and can drive the boat up on the beach. All you'd have to do is balance...?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/21/14 04:28 PM

or teach some north sea seals how to crew / hold the cat for you / maybe even a few sea lions to "carry" the cat in and out of the water for you.

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
hmmm.... design a Carbon Fiber, robotic "spider" that can walk under the trampoline, rise up and connect with the four inside corners of the beams (front and rear), lift the cat and walk it up the beach...

Or, motorized/waterproof beach wheels that you control with remote and can drive the boat up on the beach. All you'd have to do is balance...?
Posted By: bacho

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/21/14 04:38 PM

It seems to me that building a retractable system to bolt to the beams would not be all that difficult. They could include a linkage to turn them sideways as they are pulled up. The design in my head suffers greatly though when such a wide tire is required. It seems it would have to weigh at least 50lbs.

It may be worthwhile in a setting like yours with a frequent need for wheels in a hurry, or in a point to point race that requires transport over land in the middle.
Posted By: Mlcreek

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/21/14 04:52 PM

How about a spring loaded cradle for the boat to sit on. You stand on the cradle to lower the boat and lock in location. When returning you step on the release and springs bring the cradle up under the boat. The whole cradle is mounted on beach wheels that can be towed by your trax. Just thinking.
Posted By: carlbohannon

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/21/14 06:41 PM

Now that you mention it, a beach dolly using the new Polaris Airless Tires is build able and might work. They are probably designed for a heavier vehicle so they will be too stiff. You might be able to cut some of the supports out. I have seen some smaller ones (~12 inch?) overall diameter advertised for go karts that would handle about the right weight but I have not seen them actually for sale. I have been looking for a set to build a 4 wheeled Marstrom style dolly.

As for filling the tires with fluid, I saw that once. In the days before Slime, a guy reasoned filling the tires with anti freeze with stop leak would extend the life of his old beach tires. They were too heavy, they didn't roll, his girl friend was sitting on the tailgate with that look on her face and we were drinking beer and laughing.
Posted By: northsea junkie

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/21/14 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
It seems to me that building a retractable system to bolt to the beams would not be all that difficult. They could include a linkage to turn them sideways as they are pulled up. The design in my head suffers greatly though when such a wide tire is required. It seems it would have to weigh at least 50lbs.



My greatest problem is: where do I leave the wheels during sailing. They ought to be onboard for my purpose, but sailing at sea and in a break with these big things sideways extended is impossible.

The only place seems to be flat, in front upon the tramp, but then I have to have a mechanism that not only retracts them but also turns them 90 degrees.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/22/14 03:08 PM

deflate the tires for transport. Can you adapt them to those dual-stage hand pumps I see the kite-boarders use?
Posted By: Clayton

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/22/14 06:47 PM

Nah, just fab landing gear that retracts into the hulls just behind the dagger board wells. Pop them out as you get to the beach, step off the boat and wheel it in.

You can send my royalty check whenever you are ready! ;-)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/22/14 07:05 PM

just add foils, no need to retract
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/22/14 10:21 PM

Or... sail it to the trailer.
Posted By: Pirate

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/24/14 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by northsea junkie
My greatest problem is.....


Been turning this over in my head and can see all the issues you face with traditional gear....

Then I remembered seeing a pics of a hobie that had the beach wheels set into the hulls as a fixture, this was several years ago that I saw it and I have spent a couple of hours searching for those images again but with no luck....


From what I can recall, he cast a basic box into the bottom of the hull and then made a 2nd box that held the wheel and this box slid inside of the cast in box.... add a bit of silicone and it was installed and sealed.

the only images I could find are largely from aircraft wheel pants or wheel spats

but you get the idea.... wink

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


I'm sure you could design a simple yet effective setup that would work well, I don't think that the exposed tyre would cause that much grief if it was set in to minimise water turbulence ......
it would also mean no more lost/stolen beach wheels or exotic Lamborghini style door hinge setup so you can fold the wheels up onto the deck and take up room etc etc etc etc .....

just thinking out-loud
wink
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/24/14 10:37 PM

Perhaps we are going about this wrong. Perhaps not a wheel but a set of tracks (like a bulldozer) of some kind that could either retrack into the hull or remove and store on the hull.
Posted By: Mike Hill

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/24/14 10:47 PM


Put a pair of these on your front beam. smile
Posted By: northsea junkie

Re: Beach Wheels .......... question ?????? - 01/25/14 07:56 AM

Thanks guys for presenting these visualised ideas.

Kingy, the problem with retractable wheels is the size which I momentary use. They are too large, especially for my Prindle like hull shape. ( I would choose for more reasons another hullshape now if I could do it again !)


Mike, I could make room for the retracted wheels behind my frontbeam by making a hole in my tramp (it's a net). But it's an interfering solution!


I will play further with all these ideas in my head, thanks again.

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