Hobie Worlds

First day results http://www.sailingresults.net/site/event/41/overall_1.html

Black flag for a 40 boat fleet? Feisty group of Masters...

Mike

Results today http://www.sailingresults.net/site/event/41/race_1_1_2.html

Upwards of 30 knots for the Masters! Hope they don't use up all the good wind before the Open event! Seems to happen way too often around here...

Mike

Four USA Teams in the Finals, Go Yanks!
http://hobieworlds.com/hobie16-worlds/results-2

Final results http://hobieworlds.com/hobie16-worlds/results-2
Congrats to Gavin Colby and Josie Mark, new World Champions.

Wrap up... http://www.hobieworlds.com

This was the largest ever Hobie 16 Worlds event. 15 days of sailing, 901 sailors, 451 team entries from 24 countries on 6 continents. We had 60 new 16s (56 per race and 4 for spare).





Youth sailing is strong and the woman sailors were many! Awesome parties and after-sailing pub crawls.

What a great location! Awesome beaches, perfect windy conditions (sometimes too windy!) Friendly locals. Great factory support. This one is in the record books of my favorite ever.

Any insight as to why the other countries seem to spank us at these events? What can we do to improve our results?

Mike

Yeah, nobody in the US sails.

Well not quite,but close.The Top guys Sail a lot more in those conditions,against very top competition,much more often.
In fact there was a Week long training session in New Caledonia just prior to the Worlds.A lot of the top guys were at it and they had big winds all Week.
For most of the North American guys,this was there first time back on the boat since October.
How to get better,training sessions like the one they had in Caledonia.Bring in the top guys from North America and hire Colby as the Coach.Also have it in a place where there is big winds.Then send the top guys to Sail the Europeans, Australian and Brazilian
Not taking anything away from Jeff Alter,but when he is still the top guy from North America,time to start working on some young guys.

None of the semis or finals were in "big winds". The most we ever saw consistently at the pin was high teens, and most of the finals were less than 15 kts. (Compared to the Masters, when we had 35+ one day - and the plug was pulled at ~25 kts when boats and people started to break.)

The US teams were getting crappy starts - even Jeff Alter. We don't get practice with 56 boat starts, and you don't get that at a training camp, either.

What I did witness was appalling lack of sportsmanship, ignorance of the rules and downright bullying, especially on the part of some of the New Calendonian teams.

There is only one maybe Two Hobie 16 Regattas with 56 boat starts,the Europeans and the maybe ( not lately) the Australian Nationals.
You don,t need to have 56 boats to practice or get good at starting.When was the last time Colby raced against that many boats.
How many North American teams actually practice?There is a Novel idea,set up a mark and actually ,practice ,starting stopping,backing up sitting in one spot lots of things you can do on your own.
Pretty hard to go down to a Worlds in the middle of Winter ,with zero time on the boat and expect great results.I am actually impressed with the number of NA teams that made the final.How about Pat Porter finishing top 20 in one race.That is pretty darn good at any age.
I can not speak of what went on there in terms of Bullying,but the start line in any big Event is not for the Meek.Try starting in a 100 boat Laser Fleet.You have to be aggressive and know the Rules and expect some bumper car mentality.In a big fleet there is always marshmallows out there.Know who they are and start next to them.If you see the Top guys starting beside you,then you are probably the marshmallow.

When I mentioned bullying, unsportsmanlike conduct and rules ignorance, I wasn't referring to the starts. I saw that at the finishes - especially towards the people coming in from the left (on port tack) who were entitled to room at the pin, but who were shut out by people screaming "starboard!" This was the result:

After hitting the pin, spinning us sideways and causing a conflagration (boat 21 was forced wide and lost 10 boats getting back), boat 13 just sailed to the beach without doing anything (protesting the boat that forced her into the mark, a circle, refinishing). I had had enough and protested her - she gave a lame excuse for not protesting the other boat and was DSQ'ed in that race. The "bumper boat" mentality needs to stop.

On Water judging,don,t need judge boats all over the course.Most incidents happen at the marks.
Bumper Boat mentality needs to stop?Why would it if no one protests.Minor and unavoidable should be removed from the Rule Book (in fact I think it is removed).The general perception is that if you protest someone that you are the bad guy..Problem with our sport is so much is left to the discression of the individual.Some people want to protest every thing and some people just don,t want to be bothered protesting anything.I have raced in both situations and neither good.
The discussion was about how to make North Americans,more competitive.So if training camps don,t work and we don,t know how to start in big fleets,then the answer is?
Still not buying the fact you need to race in big fleets to be good .Fleet 204 probably puts more boats on the start line for a Fleet race and there Madcatter then any other Hobie Fleet I know of.They are actually the only guys I hear about that actually practice,work out and have Sailing related seminaries.

On water judging does very little good. If anything, it causes different issues.

Having said that, judges at a finish mark are never a bad thing.

Mike

O.K. Mike,I am hearing problems but no Solutions.Maybe that there is the reason some racers are better then others.Find solutions,try something different,look what other sailors or Classes are doing.What do you suggest?Still waiting to hear from Matt on how to produce better Racers.
Here is another suggestion,get into a Laser or other One Design Class that is popular in your area and Race with them.Invaluable to switch Classes once in a while.

Circa 1988, We staged the Hobie 18 Nationals at Key Sailing on Pensacola Beach as a warm - up event for the Alter Cup in Fort Walton.

Picture Carlton with a big boa wrapped around his neck and shoulders. Kirk, eventually had to lose the snake because of the rat population which quickly grew since they were the favorite food for the snake.

The course outlay for the regatta was close to the beach and Quietwater Pier in an early attempt at "stadium viewing." Due to the prevailing weather system port tack into the leeward mark was the favored lane.

By 3 AM one morning we had thrown out a starboard tacker for running into three boats coming in on port tack. He asked me what I would have done in his case.

I replied, "since I was already overstanding, I would have gybed on to port and become the inside boat at the mark."

Starboard tack does not always prevail in a jury deliberation. Do not push it... the poor fellow on starboard knocked two boats out of the regatta, and there was much work to do on one of the boats for the upcoming Alter Cup. Of course; that gentleman lost his deposit and had to become entangled with his insurance company.

Do not push it... knowledge of the rules and common sense go a long way to protect one from self inflicted horror and costly lack of good judgment.

Most recent case: Aberdeen and Groupama - Extreme Sailing Series, Singapore

Key West: A gate mark boat was struck by four J 80s in one rounding - I wonder what role the overlaps, tacks, and boat location might have been... The mark boat operator was slow to react.. I would like to see the outcome of that redress, if there was one.

"The further ahead you look, the further ahead you get."

Bert

I'm sorry, but WHAT??? I'm the one who opened the question. I wasn't there, so I don't know what we're missing; I'm asking those that were.

Matt brought up an excellent point about sportsmanship, but obviously, that's not the reason for the US results. I wouldn't discount his comment about sailing in big fleets. It changes not only your starting strategy, but just about every single decision you make on the course.

You suggested having more judging on the water as a way to curb cheating, but I can tell you from personal experience that it's at best a Band-Aid, and can be more of a hindrance to sportsmanship and self-policing. Many people tend to expect the judges to do the protesting, others use on-water judges (and umpires) as a way to push the rules even further: If they're not flagged, they push it harder next time.

But, like you, I am more interested in ways to improve the results.

Mike

Matt, I agree with that last sentence 100%, but why wasn't the boat that fouled 13 brought into the room and also DSQ?

Mike

Mike L. - the skipper of 13 couldn't identify the boat that fouled her (it wasn't 53 - the photo was taken about 10 seconds after the incident started. 53 was well back at the time of the incident). We (the RC) probably could have sussed it out, but we felt that boat-on-boat incidents should be handled between the boats without the RC injecting themselves into the incident (we were happy to be witnesses to anything we saw).

BTW, the finish tape from that incident is pretty funny. Lots of "Look out!", "$hit!!!" and muffled sounds of us heading to the back of the boat, then back up to free 13 from the anchor line (she hooked it with her bow, even though it was weighted straight down).

Mike M. - you will be waiting a long time for suggestions from me on improving North America's performance at worlds - like forever. The performance of the NA team at world events affects ~ 20 people. There are a lot more important things - like keeping the sport alive in NA - that we need to focus on.

When there's no one left sailing Hobie 16s in NA, the worlds won't matter to anyone here.

A young North American guy winning a World Hobie 16 Championship would go a long way in promoting the sport over here.
Think of how many young People Tiger Woods attracted to the game of Golf (maybe Tiger is not the best example of a role model)
Matt ,you must still be adjusting to the time zone change.Your interested in "keeping the sport alive ,but no interest in getting the top guys better".Most of those top guys you are talking about are the ones keeping this sport healthy.How cool would it be to have a Kid like,Trey James or Ben Brown or Kat Porter,featured in a Sailing World Article or front page of there local news paper.Winning attracts attention.
Mike I like your thinking,"how do we get better".Yes it would be great to sail In big fleets all the time,but that is not realistic.
One thing Sail Canada is doing in prep for the Pan Ams is putting on Sailing Camps for the prospective Pan Am teams.I have had the privilege of going to them and have found them very effective.One of our Canadian guys has had his best result ever at a North American,s.I have and am still willing to share the training program they have set forth.

That may be a way to attract existing sailors to the Hobie 16 or other multi, but I do not think its going to do much to attract new sailors.

It's all related, I agree with that. I have zero issues with people who choose to focus on one goal over the other (growth vs. performance), because we need to improve both.

This question(s?) also racks the brain trust at US Sailing, literally because they are required to improve both.

Mike

No it wouldn't. In fact, it would probably drive the ordinary folks away since they would rationalize that they could never win. The only person in NA who realistically has a chance of doing well at the worlds wasn't there (Enrique). While I like Enrique and admire him as a sailor (and I've known him for almost 30 years) - he really hasn't done much to support the class and the ordinary sailor - except when he's paid to do it.


No and no. The people that keep the sport healthy are the ones like Bruce Krupke and Ron Holm - the guys in the middle of the pack whose enthusiasm is infectious and who keep introducing new people into the sport.

They don't have to win to attract attention. The fact that Ben and Kat - and other youths like the Larson twins - went to AUS to compete at a high level event like the worlds attracts attention.

You need to read Stuart Walker's book "The Code of Competition" and learn that it's not the top guys that are the caretakers of the sport - it's the middle of the pack, and especially the guy that comes in last that you need to take care of. For when the last place person gets discouraged and quits - there's someone new that comes in last - and the cycle starts all over again.

The HCANA already has a mechanism for racing improvement - the Guest Expert Program. Unfortunately, it's been underutilized of late. Maybe that's because most people who attend regattas aren't there to become the pointy end of the spear, but are there to socialize and have a good time, without the pressure of "performing".

Hobie Alter once said, "[D]o not let the good sailors take control of your class. They'll ruin it. So I had a couple of problems with guys that were really tight on the rules, and really weren't well-liked. I told them, "You know what, when you go up to get your trophy, you're going to have 5 people clap for you rather than a hundred. Is that really how you want it?"

I haven't read that book but I completely agree with this statement.

Removing my post. Apologies if it came across wrong.

Never implied that top talent doesn't sail in the Hobie 16 fleet.

One other thought, the point about sailing in other fleets is really important. If you look at someone like Ravi who won F16 nationals and was fourth at F18 Americas he regularly races big events in laser radials and 420s to get big fleet experience. Lots of us in the F18 fleet also came from other dinghies and collegiate sailing where there is a huge emphasis on starts, roundings, etc.

Thanks Jeff.

I do agree with your second post. One of our top US H16 sailors (who did well at a fairly recent Worlds) was Bob Merrick, who (as you know) came not only from the traditional route, but took home an Olympic medal from Sydney. So, there's a lot to be said for that. It did, however, take him a few years (and at least one season of frostbiting in H14s) to get to the top of the H16 class.

Matt makes some great points about how to keep classes healthy. No one wants to be the first place boat in a five boat fleet if they could be racing 100.

Mike

So I need to look back ,the original question was why do the North Americans not do better and what needs to be done to improve that.I think I have tried to address that,not sure how this has been taken off the tracks?Thanks Jeff for adding something that is related,and at least agreeing with one thing I suggested.
Matt I don,t need to read Stuart Walkers books,he is way to technical for me.You don,t need to read any books to adhere to good sportsmanship and understand that concept..I agree with you whole heartedly on that issue.In fact Paul Elvestrom was preaching that message probably even before Stuart Walker.if I can paraphrase he said " if you win,but in doing so have made more enemies then friends,then you really have not won anything".

Madge,

I don't think you can discount the experience of starting in a big fleet. I'm a decent sailor but when I get in a big fleet I do NOT start well and it is really costly. It's something that's really hard to practice without doing it frequently.

Jake

In the place standings, yes, but not nearly as costly as tearing up all those cool graphics on the side of your boat!

But you're right: the solid start gets you out of all that crap air and gives you options for choosing good lanes to the top mark.

A second row start pretty much limits you to whatever you can get (hardly a winning strategy)

Perhaps the biggest reason for trouble in a big fleet start is you often don't know who your neighbors are (right up at the line) so it's a bit harder to play any sort of tactic to advantage.

Sure, if they're all top players, everyone is pretty certain how others will respond. But toss in a bunch of mid-fleeters and (my personal favorite) marshmallows who parked on the line 30 seconds early and it's anyone's guess...

I can't remember what regatta it was but (as the perennial marshmallow that I am) it was almost a joy to watch Robbie and JC chase each other "full-tilt" in and around our glob of slow/stalled boats about 4 seconds before the gun.

[quote=Jake]Madge,

I don't think you can discount the experience of starting in a big fleet. I'm a decent sailor but when I get in a big fleet I do NOT start well and it is really costly. It's something that's really hard to practice without doing it frequently.

Then Charter a Laser and head down to Florida next year and enter The Laser Mid-Winters Regatta and get practice starting with a 60+ boat Fleet.You won,t Win the Event but you will get practice starting in a Big Fleet.
I am going to beat my own Drum here.I sail and practice in a Fleet of one up here in Thunder Bay.I have competed in a couple of Hobie 16 North Americans and one Worlds way back in the 80's.Now I have never won any big Event,but one of my strong points is my starting.In fact I had a Compliment from Sue Korz that she said she did not want to start next to me because I was getting such good starts.So take it for what it is worth,I really believe you don,t need to have 50 boats on the line to practice getting good starts.Wether there is 5,50 or 150 boats on the line it still comes down to beating the two boats on either side of you.
Best advice I ever got was from Miles Woods at the 1987 Hobie 18 North Americans,he said " getting a good start in a big fleet,is like going to a good show in a big City,get there early if you want a seat".In other words you better be pretty good at parking your boat for a long time on the line and knowing how to defend that spot.
Which leads me to the earlier point on how to get better.How many racers will actually have the Time or motivation to just go sail up to a mark ,park and sit there,or back up and go back to it.There is a whole lot of drills you can do on your own that will make you a better starter.Get three boats together and have a really short line.How about this one,have your wife or Girl friend sitting on a dock ,blow a whistle when you have crossed an imaginary starting line(My Wife just loves this (: ).Great for finding out how close you are to the line,also makes it really important to have a transit on long starting lines.
I mean what else is there,if you just rely on starting in big fleets in Catamarans to try to get better then it probably is not going to happen.
I am not trying to pretend to know anything,heck I will listen to anyone.If anyone else has ideas on how to get better I am all ears.
One other point Enrique,s name came up.I have nothing but good things to say about him.Any time I have approached him with questions he has been very receptive.Did,t cost me any money.
Jake read this,might help.
http://centerofeffort01.blogspot.ca/2012/08/size-matters-tips-for-starting-

Right. I'm sure Matt's only 90% serious about that, or he wouldn't have been at the event instead of doing something with newbies...

Mike

Darn ,I wish I would have brought that up.

There's a whole lot more to being able to start in a big fleet than parking your boat. I can do this pretty well and I practice it often. Mix in a little current, be on the line and unable to see either end of it, get hit a couple of times and try to keep your focus and your position. Practicing against a buoy is good - but there's more to a big fleet start than being able to park your boat and hold your position.

Yes your are so right,and thanks for that great advice.

Being on the pin boat at the worlds gave me a front row seat (literally) to watch various starting techniques, especially under black flag conditions. (We gave the fleet one P flag (Blue Peter in British/Aussie parlance) start before going to black - most of the Blue Peter starts were a mob scene. Out of the 60+ start sequences we ran, we only got off a few Blue Peter starts. After a while, we just started off with the black flag. All the finals races started under black.)

Blaine Dodds and Jason Waterhouse had particularly interesting starting techniques that didn't involve sitting in one place - but that's the subject of a Hotline article and won't be revealed here.

Lest we forget, a North American team did place 5th - Jason Hess and Irene Abascal from Guatemala. There were no Puerto Ricans or Mexicans there, who are traditionally strong in Hobie 16s. There was only one Canadian team.

Another area where we're weak is kinetics. We just haven't been taught to ooch and pump - but the top guys are doing it a lot.

I didn't mean to offend you if that's what I did...

Nope,you did not offend me.In fact lesson learnt,don,t give advice if the person does not ask for any.
Enough fun for one day.

I'll assume that's more sarcasm, because I didn't see anything personally aimed at you in his posts. I am not picking sides at all, you're both making valid points; I just don't see any personal attacks coming from Matt.

Mike

How about Tom Whitehurst's kinetics at the port end of the line in a Midwinter Sunfish fleet... talk radical pin end starts! Yea Brah!

Conventional wisdom has always been that kinetics don't work on cats. I've always found this hard to believe in all conditions, but because it's been so restricted by the RRS (and frankly, I've had bigger issues to worry about in my racing development), I wrote it off years ago.

Maybe this is an area where our non-cat sailors can help us. Jeff, have you dialed this in enough on cats to give a seminar?

Mike

The "conventional wisdom" is borne out of monohulls - the techniques used in multihulls are limited and used almost exclusively off the wind.

For example, monohulls have multiple ways to violate Rule 42 upwind - rolling, pumping, bouncing - as OTW judges, we're taught to focus on the upper leech of the main and look for the "flick" caused by pumping/bouncing. You won't see that in a multihull with a fully-battened main and lots of leech tension. Without the flick, you're not propelling the boat.

On the other hand, downwind on a non-spinnaker multihull (Hobie 16) is ripe for pumping and ooching. Especially since the class rules modify RRS 42:

Planing... on a Hobie 16...???

sm

Matt, I'm referring to the conventional wisdom of the top cat sailors I had access to while learning to race. I was never involved with racing monos until I got more serious about RC and judging/umpiring.

To be more specific: the cat sailors around here always told me it was illegal and doesn't work on cats anyway.

So, what works (and is legal)? I'm sure this would be easier to answer with video. If kinetics are a differentiator at these events, we'd best start teaching our sailors the following ASAP:

(1) How and when to do the legal, effective stuff well.

(2) How to recognize how and when the illegal stuff is being done so it can be protested successfully by the competitors.

Mike

One last thought on why North Americans did poorly (that was not my observation,realistically I thought they did well).Jeff Alter was the top North American,Jeff is 50 + years old and has not seriously raced the Hobie 16 since 2004.In fact my sources tell me he has not been on a 16 since that time.Look at the average age of the Top North Americans.The sad fact,and believe me it hurts me to say this is the Hobie 16 Class is aging.
Now look the New Caledonia team ,and as the guy that was on the Race committee stated (well you can read his post on what he thought of them),the fact of the matter is they are all pretty young.Not sure how many people have Raced in a Major Laser Class Regatta lately but most of the really good guys are Young ,**** and push the Rules very hard. they are also very good at inventing ways to make the boat go faster using Kenitics.In fact ,at the 2009 North Americans I had a guy from Puerto Rico crew for me (had also previously crewed for Enrique and Legal),this guy did more sail pumping and Oohing then I was comfortable with. Not saying this is right,just saying that is how it is with some younger sailors.Hence why the Laser Masters Class is so much more popular with the aging Laser Sailors. The Lasers Master Class is more like your normal Hobie 16 Class,where for the most part the Sailors are pretty well behaved ,and obviously Older.
When Brett Dryland won his first Worlds he was 18 years Old.I don,t see any Young Hobie Sailors here in North America that are close to World Class Level.Apperantly as one guy posted that is a good thing.
Hey My days of visioning of winning the Worlds have long since come and gone.Is there going to be new young blood come up and do it from North America?as much as I would like to see that happen,I and not optimistic.When I started sailing the 16 back in 1976 it was a fast,sexy looking craft that was fun to sail and go fast,especially coming from sailing on Windmills,Lasers ,Albacores and Lightenings.Time has moved on and the Young Sailors of today have so many other choices for fast attractive looking Classes.I now own a 49er myself and have a list an arms length long of kids that want to crew on it or buy it.
Unfortunatly this is not only the situation here in North America ,but Colby (World Champion) himself has stated even in Australia the Class is dying a Slow death.
I would be interested to know what they are doing in New Caledonia and if in fact the Class is thriving?

As I mentioned before, Jason Hess / Irene Abascal (Guatemala) were the top placing North Americans (5th place). As for age, Jason and Irene are in their 20s.


Jeff raced on a 16 at the 2005 North Americans (Ventura, CA)and at 40th Anniversary Regatta (Dana Point, CA 2008). He was campaigning a Tiger during that time period, too. However, since Hobie Sr.'s illness started in 2009, the family has "circled the wagons" to support him and make sure the grandkids spend time with him.

But your point is well taken - Jeff Alter has not been on the boat in a long while - and yet he was the second-highest placing North American at the worlds. It just goes to show what a formidable competitor he was/is. He's also feeling his age - in speaking with him at the awards banquet, he was surprised at how sore he was.


That's been going on for a long time. It's not just Hobie 16s, either. It applies to almost all catamaran classes in North America, with the exception of perhaps the F16.

Younger than most of the North Americans for sure, but they certainly aren't kids. Most are in their 30's.


And that's why they have on-the-water Rule 42 judging.


The Laser is a very physical boat - especially at the top end of the fleet. Just look at what kind of physical shape Anna Tunnicliffe is in. The division between Masters/Open in to give the older, less physically fit sailors a chance to compete on an even playing field.

The Laser Masters fleet is no better behaved than the Open Laser fleet - I've judged both and if anything, the Masters are harder to police. There is truth to the saying that age and treachery will overcome youth and exuberance. The Masters have learned where the edge of the rules are and push to the limit, but rarely over. The younger sailors haven't learned where that edge is and it's obvious when they step over it.


I don't think it's a good thing. I think there are bigger fish to fry - like keeping the class alive.

There's an age gap in sailing - we're good at getting kids involved. We had a Hobie 16 Youth North Americans in 2013 with 32 competitors. But we lose them between the ages of 21 and 30something - if they come back at all.



I think one of the reasons New Caledonia has been so dominant is the same reason the Latin Americans are: they've picked one boat (Hobie 16) and they concentrate on it. In the US and Canada, we're dying the death of 1000 cuts by splintering into dozens of classes.

For any future references I am referring to The United States and Canada when I say North American.Yes I know Matt that I am wrong again in leaving out those other Countries,but I am too lazy and too bad a typewriter to keep typing Canada and the United States.
Yes no denying Jeff Alter was a formidable competitor,but still not convinced that bodes well that the torch has not been passed on to some younger ,fitter stronger guy.This Class really should favour younger guys. Keep in mind my def,n of young is anyone under 40 (I am old )
Having sailed in both Laser Open and Laser Masters Class,there is no doubt in my mind that the Laser Masters are much more respective on the course.That is not to say they are any less competitive.There is just a whole lot less Bullying and yelling and upwind kinetics (really our bodies can,t do what Scheidt and Slingsby do)Actually I hate to use that term Bullying because I don,t really believe that even relates to sailing.
BTW as a plug,we are hosting the Laser Great Lakes Masters here in Thunder Bay this Summer ( if we ever lose all the ice).Right here on beautifully Lake Superior,.Charter Boats are available at a very low cost.
IMO one of the best ISAF Presidents we had was Paul Henderson ( not the guy that scored the famous goal in 1972) another Canadian.He was very supportive of Catamarans in the Olympics because he believed it to be the purest form of sailing.In other words he argued there was very little Kenitics ( by the same reasoning he disliked Board Sailing with all the pumping)Well quess what,kinetics has become very important aspect of sailing even a Hobie 16..Pat Porter and I have had some great discussions about this.Tim shuwalow described in an interview I had with him about how active he was with the main and body movements.Unfortunatly most of us Older Hobie guys are lazy cleat the main type sailors.
A very Old Sailing World Article once stated that all the new Classes are actually hurting Sailing and eventually only a few really truly One Design classes would survive and the rest would fall off by the way side. It is true a whole lot have fallen by the wayside,but it seems like new ones just replace them.If that is the case that the 16 is the only catamaran class in New Caledonia,then that clearly would be an advantage to attract and keep the top sailors.

In a perfect world, all we need are Waves, H16s and F18s. Of course, without development, we would only have H16s (of that list)...

Anyway, the problem of retaining 20-something sailors is a problem across the sport, in both cats and monos. There have been lots of ideas of how to fix this, but nothing that's really taken off yet.

Probably the one class that seems to have thrived in this age range (around my neck of the woods) is the F18s.

If you think H16 or Laser sailors are bad about kinetics, try judging an Opti regatta. They learn it way, way too early...

Mike

BTW: Before any of you get nutty about the first line, it's meant to be dripping with sarcasm. Mostly...

Best time to learn about Kinetics.Hey watch youg Laser Sailors bring there boat back to shore when there is no wind.Sailing dinghs and cats should be a physical, Athletic Sport.

I agree with that, but at some point, it becomes air rowing and laughable.

Personally, I think all kinetics should be illegal, because it is very difficult, even for trained judges, to be in the right place and to always call it right, which makes it ripe for abuse. The last thing the sport needs is more excuses for sailors to hate what is happening around them, lose protests, etc. We don't have the critical mass to be losing anyone else, or scaring away any newbies with this nonsense.

Mike

Go to the Finn Class Rule,unlimited pumping and ooching in winds over a certain speed 10 knts I believe ( I am sure if I am wrong someone will correct me)

My 2 cents and that is all I have...the only way to build the top of our class(es) is to build membership...look at the pure numbers....say we have 1000 members (I think that is high) and we have 20 top teams that is 40 members so that means one potential top team for every 50 members...also, it is the casual/social racer that keeps the class alive so, in order to increase the pool of top teams to train in big fleets we have to build the membership pool from which to draw them...one other thing, we Americans work too much, most other countries have ALOT more time to train or just be on the water....it is not until later in our American dream lives do we have more time to play...

Correct, and that is when we need to take part and give back. Youth teams will only grow with our support and volunteer time.
www.sailsandpoint.org

Just a quick observation/question: How many competitive guys/teams out there have young families?

I sorta do (4 kids, ages ranging from 9-18), and I find it to be a real PITA to coordinate sailing time with all the other 100's of commitments. Few if any of the people I sail with on a regular basis are in the same situation. Most either have no kids to begin with or are empty nesters. When a younger sailor gets married or has kids, they seem to drop off the face of the earth.

I'm doing my best - my oldest sailed with me at Americas, and #2 is showing some real enthusiasm now that he's old enough not to get scared. #1 has even mentioned looking at the college sailing team next year when he goes to school.

Quick edit: My avatar pic is with #2 at his 1st regatta up on very cold Lk Charlevoix in early June last year.