Catsailor.com

I don't get it.

Posted By: Anonymous

I don't get it. - 03/26/14 05:18 PM

Regatta attendance is down, events are being cancelled due to financial constraints, people are getting upset about it, I read of people complaining of having to do MAJOR travel to race and yet we still only have 2 F-18 signed up for the Ocean Springs event for April IN THE SOUTH. What can we do to make this regatta work for you guys??
Posted By: Andy Humphries

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 03:12 PM

I'm going to stir the pot. Open it up for all cats, not just F18s. We can't afford to exclude anyone.
Posted By: bacho

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 03:23 PM

On that particular weekend there are two regattas on the calendar local to me. If I were to drive the 8 to 10 hours that it would take me to get to Ocean Springs, that opens up two maybe three other choices.

I think it's an issue of scheduling in this case.
Posted By: F-18 5150

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 03:28 PM

My schedule got changed and we are unable to make it.
We had 2 boats coming.
Posted By: Robbie

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 03:53 PM

Ditto Andy, Looking at this attendance (HMW) and other regattas being canceled, it's time to organize when events are to happen, work together, don't exclude boats, if someone travels to ours we need to make a point of traveling to theirs, if not every year, then every other year.......This just seems maddening that events do not have a common place to schedule our multihull regattas and if necessary, make them every other year events so that everybody has the same goal, get as many boats as possible to an event, work together to plan for all the events.......open it up, this is about multihull growth and getting all the boats we can involved and on the water.....
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 04:20 PM

Quote
This just seems maddening that events do not have a common place to schedule our multihull regattas


So... that is a failure of leadership.... Not just a mechanism to schedule BUT the willingness to make hard choices.
" Thanks... our numbers are down... we can't support your event this year as a class. We are recommending that our fleet's sailors pass on your regatta." That is hard!

Just because a YC or cat group is OK with running a regatta with 4 boats on the starting line... does not mean the class should support it and publish it on the schedule.

There is also a failure of followership... If you want racing with 10 boats min on the starting line... you are going to have to follow... and show up for your class schedule.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 04:27 PM

Until HC gets into the f16 world, we're (HCA-NA) only able to accomodate F-18s. Best we can do, but I still would have thought we'd have gotten a peck (gaggle? Pride?) of F-18s to come at least for tuning up and putting a beat down on the Hobie 20s they will most likely start with.
Posted By: Robbie

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 04:29 PM

I'm like you Chris, I don't get it.......
Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Robbie
Ditto Andy, Looking at this attendance (HMW) and other regattas being canceled, it's time to organize when events are to happen, work together, don't exclude boats, if someone travels to ours we need to make a point of traveling to theirs, if not every year, then every other year.......This just seems maddening that events do not have a common place to schedule our multihull regattas and if necessary, make them every other year events so that everybody has the same goal, get as many boats as possible to an event, work together to plan for all the events.......open it up, this is about multihull growth and getting all the boats we can involved and on the water.....


Mark has been making this point repeatedly and there is certainly some truth to it. The problem is going to boil down to who is giving up our dates. If you look at the schedule on our website (Emsa-sailing.org) you'll see the EMSA regattas and "other events" listed there. It used to be that all of those "other events" were in our EMSA regattas list and it was too much...we were losing people. We decided to whittle the list of official regattas down and it's helped a little. It still drives a lot of discussion about who's regatta is official when we have a conflict.

With the time and energy we spend on nailing down our own regional schedule, I start to wonder who would really move their dates around to accommodate a neighboring regatta on a larger scale? The a-cat class clearly didn't make any effort to avoid Spring Fever (and event that was drawing a significant number of A-cats) and it probably cost them both their events. Spring Fever is always Easter weekend and I have my doubts as to whether or not we could have talked the a-cat organizers out of that weekend if we had the chance.

That said, I definitely think it's worthwhile to setup some scheduling discussions around major events but it's a BIG nut to crack and events aren't all scheduled at the same time.

A sailor exchange program is a good idea but it is difficult to get any significant buy-in in our region for something like that when they're happy with our regional schedules.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 04:51 PM

It's schedule saturation plain and simple. Opening HME to all is not the solution, it's one regatta in a sea of regatta's.

Let the poorly attended regatta's drop off the schedule and allow the well run well attended regatta's to prosper. It's cold hearted but it's a solution and is probably going to happen anyway because inaction is very popular.
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 05:03 PM

At the Multihull Racing Committee meeting in the fall, the need for a centralized scheduling tool was mentioned. Jeff Dusek volunteered to help set this up, but as mentioned above (by several of you in different ways), populating and then doing something meaningful with the tool falls on the local organizations.

Rick has tried to provide such tools here in the past, and sometimes they are used for a while, then dropped; other times they aren't used at all. And, I'm just talking about populating the data, not using it to drive decisions.

Getting regatta organizers within a single class to work together not to step on one another is hard enough; getting organizers of different classes to work together has proven to be a tough nut to crack.

I think Ding is right in the sense that unless we change something about how we approach this, it's going to be survival of the fittest. My thought is, how could SF not be one of the fittest, and what can we do to ensure that we don't lose that regatta forever?

I'm in favor of anything that will improve the situation.

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 05:11 PM

that would be a good use of my US Sailing membership dollar: a scheduling calendar that could be filtered by class and/or region as well as format (buoy, distance, adventure, fun, etc)

So if I wanted to see where my OD events were, I could.

If I just said "hey, I've got a weekend free. What regattas are going on around me?", I could.

Organizers can register to create/edit the events and link the NORs.

Maybe even have the site handle the pre-registration and/or payment processing? US Sail would probably take a cut, but whatever...

Heck, that might even give US Sailing the opportunity to show sponsors where their money is going, how many eyeballs are seeing it, etc.
Posted By: tback

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
that would be a good use of my US Sailing membership dollar: a scheduling calendar that could be filtered by class and/or region as well as format (buoy, distance, adventure, fun, etc)

So if I wanted to see where my OD events were, I could.

If I just said "hey, I've got a weekend free. What regattas are going on around me?", I could.

Organizers can register to create/edit the events and link the NORs.

Maybe even have the site handle the pre-registration and/or payment processing? US Sail would probably take a cut, but whatever...

Heck, that might even give US Sailing the opportunity to show sponsors where their money is going, how many eyeballs are seeing it, etc.


Why reinvent the wheel.

A Southeast Calendar has been used for 2 years now. It's hosted on Google cloud and can be accessed by anyone.

We try to keep a good list of events up to date for easy viewing. Also you can add your name under your class and indicate which regattas that you plan on attending.

It can be found <HERE> ; with links to the NOR if/when available.

I don't recommend utilizing a single calendar for all regions, but others can copy this format for their regions and where regions abut a sharing of key regattas can be included on one anothers calendar to increase attendance and minimize events being planned for the same weekend.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
that would be a good use of my US Sailing membership dollar: a scheduling calendar that could be filtered by class and/or region as well as format (buoy, distance, adventure, fun, etc)

So if I wanted to see where my OD events were, I could.

If I just said "hey, I've got a weekend free. What regattas are going on around me?", I could.

Organizers can register to create/edit the events and link the NORs.

Maybe even have the site handle the pre-registration and/or payment processing? US Sail would probably take a cut, but whatever...

Heck, that might even give US Sailing the opportunity to show sponsors where their money is going, how many eyeballs are seeing it, etc.


When I read posts like this I have throw my hands in the air and say w - t - f? There are schedules everywhere, if you really want to find a regatta it is easily found. Terry for the 100th time has provided a link to a schedule page he created years ago which has EVERYTHING in the southeast. Rick puts every regatta in the nation on the schedule page on this very site. The USF18 class has another comprehensive schedule on the class site and it's probably safe to assume the other classes do it as well.

Another schedule page IS NOT the solution and likely will be just as ignored as all of the other schedule pages currently available. If we can't get folks to take two minutes to do a google search can we really expect them to drag their boat to a regatta regardless what we offer?

On another topic I have never been to a regatta where the open class is treated any differntly than any other class there. If they aren't attending it's for the same reason(s) as any of the other classes.
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 07:13 PM

Dave, I tend to agree, but it was brought up and had support at the meeting. As I mentioned above, I am skeptical for exactly the same reasons as you. We might just need to do a better job of using and advertising what's already out there.

Having said that, if enough people want this, and we have someone willing to manage it, I will fully support the effort and get US Sailing to help support and promote it. We had staff support for the idea in the room as well.

Mike
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 07:55 PM

Hmmm. Interesting. If the schedule is saturated, that is a problem for everyone, since the SE is a pretty large area and its not 1977 and we don't have tens of thousands of drunken sailors looking for a party, I mean regatta, every weekend. We (HCA) really only have ONE regatta we call our own and that is the MWE and its pretty much always around the same time. Talk is that it might just kind of stay in Mississippi as its a good deal for everyone. We (HCA) can certainly work with whoever we need to so that we schedule this properly so we don't cross swords with another regatta. Other than that, we have a couple good div chairs in north and south Florida doing their best to get our OD 16 class into existing regattas with some success. If there is a central location for scheduling stuff, and a forum to discuss it in, we'll be the first to work to get the schedule right so we don't suck the life out of another race or vice versa.
Posted By: barbshort

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 08:03 PM

http://regattanetwork.org/

Boom! Done! Been around a long time.....
Posted By: samc99us

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 08:09 PM

F-18's, F-16's, and A-Cats all rate within 2% on SCHRS! I would rather drive 8 hours to a regatta with a total mixed fleet of 20 F-18's, F-16's and A's than 4 hours to a regatta with <5 F-18's!!!
Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 08:09 PM

Hypothetical scenario. Suppose we assemble this country-wide schedule. What regional scheduling process will change as a result?

Our EMSA process (SC, NC, GA, TN, and somewhat VA) is that I start a Yahoo Group conversation by listing the official regattas we had the previous year and asking the local folks to check their schedules and plan their dates. I'm always surprised at how very responsive everyone is once this initial call goes out (seriously). I start filling in the blanks as the dates come in. If we have a date or event conflict, we work it out there but this hasn't been much of an issue in the last two years. When there is a conflict, we sometimes discuss which is an "official" event under some thinly documented guidelines that catamaran-only regattas, or regattas that give catamarans their own course, get official preference vs. regattas that are mixed monohull and multihull on the same course. Sometimes someone will agree to shift their date. Once we have our schedule sketched out, if they haven't already been brought up and included in our "other events" category, I find the national championships that pertain to the different boat classes that make up our group and make sure I notify event organizers that they have a conflict and may lose X number of boats. They either rearrange or decide to leave their event where it is. Once finalized, I post it to the EMSA website and send the information to Rick White and Damon's schedule at the Beachcats. Our schedule is also sent on to SAYRA (EMSA is a member there) to be included on their southeast schedule.

That said, very few of our sailors go to events outside our territory other than Steeplechase, Tradewinds, or a national championship. Some do attend Slip to Ship but it's usually one or two boats and losing them won't drive a need to adjust our schedule. I can't think of another event in the neighboring areas that would make us need to shift our schedule...our folks just aren't traveling that far away.

I'm not sure how having another national calendar will change the way we schedule our events in our region because we are only concerned with avoiding the major events that we are already concerned with. I'm also not sure that our method needs any repair.

Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by barbshort
http://regattanetwork.org/

Boom! Done! Been around a long time.....


Leave it to Barb to bring the dynamite! But, don't you have to pay fees to have your event on Regatta Network?
Posted By: barbshort

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 08:20 PM

Yes, but it's modest enough to be enough bang for the buck that even our small Upper Keys Sailing Club uses it for "big" regattas. I'm sure US Sailing would require some subsidy to use such a thing as well.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 08:22 PM

Annapolis to Oxford is September 13th, return trip September 14th. Low hassle, we had 10 beachcats on the line last year, party at the finish, sail back the next day. No ground crew needed, 70 miles of sailing, centrally located for the Northeast and Southeast fleets!!

Leave your boat rigged and race two days the following weekend!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 08:43 PM

Thanks Barb. Although, I am not new to Regatta Network and am a HUGE fan of it, my point was the discussion portion of making up a schedule that everyone can not only live with but can more easily participate in. Just making plans independent of a larger process has led us to: SF being cancelled, MWE showing modest at best numbers etc..etc....etc...see what I mean?
Posted By: tback

Re: I don't get it. - 03/27/14 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Jake


That said, very few of our sailors go to events outside our territory other than Steeplechase, Tradewinds, or a national championship. Some do attend Slip to Ship but it's usually one or two boats and losing them won't drive a need to adjust our schedule. I can't think of another event in the neighboring areas that would make us need to shift our schedule...our folks just aren't traveling that far away.

I'm not sure how having another national calendar will change the way we schedule our events in our region because we are only concerned with avoiding the major events that we are already concerned with. I'm also not sure that our method needs any repair.




I think having regional calendars that are visible to all are worthwhile based around the "usually suspects" of attendees. These can overlap a bit.

For example:

FL, GA Calendar
N. FL, AL, MS, GA Calendar
SC, NC, GA, TN , VA Calendar
VA, MD, PA, DL Calendar
New England Calendar

Each adjacent region should coordinate with the other adjacent regions to [try] minimize the schedule conflicts (I think this sorta takes place today).

Beyond that, I think each adjacent area should have 1 race per year (outside of the big ones that Jake mentions - Tradewinds, SpringFever, SteepleChase) that we all make a concerted effort to try and attend to make it a "super regional regatta".

For example, Pensacola is has a good sailing venue so us in Central Florida should make a time to get up there to race and bring boats....then maybe the guys on the fringe in GA and SC might find that more boats there are attractive and bring 4-5 more.

Another idea, might be to rearrange schedules of FL races to be more heavily geared towards DEC-MAR. Targeted towards cold weather climate sailors who could bring their boats down for the first race and leave them in FL while flying in to make other races.

Current Races In Florida during that timeframe:
DEC: SteepleChase
Jan: Tradewinds
Feb: Charlotte Harbor, Hagar (low key fun weekend)
Mar: SpaceCoast 45

Maybe consider switching out KPRR on Labor Day weekend with Hagar for full weekend of buoy racing.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 12:27 PM

For our fleet, MWE just doesn't really fit into the schedule. We have spring training in Newport during April, then our season starts mid-May at Madcatter. I think for many of us, training as a group in Newport during April makes more sense financially and in terms of vacation time then traveling to MWE or Spring Fever. Personally, I would rather save my limited money for something like Nationals later in the season.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 01:40 PM

I like the concept of a centralized "one-stop" to look at a wide variety of stuff.

I almost missed this because it's not on a multihull or beachcat calendar: http://m.naplesnews.com/news/2014/mar/27/sail-away-regatta-to-hit-the-waters-off-naples/

Most likely due to the organizers lack of knowledge of where to post stuff. In this particular event beachcats aren't participating (something in the NOR about self-righting and cabins), BUT that doesn't mean a beachcat or two can't "shadow" (Timbo's word) the fleet and make them look silly sorry, that was for the monohulls (guess they don't like sailing canoes or Sunfish)...
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 02:15 PM

Some Hard facts of life.. with no magic solutions.

We are Over scheduled.... See Jeff's feedback... Not enough racers on the midwinter travel circuit to give these events critical mass.

Stupidity... having apathy kill off Spring Fever
VS
Triage ... Class and regatta leaders having a meeting and making hard decisions.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 03:02 PM

Word. Our guys in the North/South smile are Mark Van Doren and Michael McNeir, and if they aren't seeing this, I'll get them up to speed, but if there ends up being a Tony Soprano type meeting of the classes to get a non saturated schedule together, they will be our go to guys from HCA's perspective.
We would be able to better support the Georgia regatta if we could persuade the organizers into a Hobie 16 separate start. We asked, but were denied a couple years in a row and can certainly bring people/equipment/whatever to the event to help.
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 03:08 PM

Jake, I respectfully disagree that your process can't use improvements. You just lost Spring Fever. That would be like losing Madcatter and saying, "Nothing is wrong here, go about your business..."

Barb, if we put something on the US Sailing site, it will be free. It will simply be a hosted schedule, so it won't cost them anything. It will be up to us to maintain the schedule.

While I have some reservations as to whether people will actually use it, this is precisely the type of stuff US Sailing and the Multihull Racing Committee absolutely should be doing as a service to our members.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 03:17 PM

Chris reminds me or what is truly irreplaceable are GREAT VENUES. Places that sailors enjoy going to with good waters to sail. 1) Property owners, (state or private) have to take a very hard look at giving you permission to use their property. 2) You MUST HAVE local volunteers to make events happen... you can't run them from 500 miles away.

The assumption that the free market... let the individual sailor vote by picking and choosing ASSUMES that the marketplace exists and if one event gets killed off... it is readily replace by another equally fine event... maybe yes.. maybe no...

Burning your clubs and the irreplaceable venues that they make available is beyond stupid....
Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Jake, I respectfully disagree that your process can't use improvements. You just lost Spring Fever. That would be like losing Madcatter and saying, "Nothing is wrong here, go about your business..."

If we put something on the US Sailing site, it will be free. It will simply be a hosted schedule, so it won't cost them anything. It will be up to us to maintain the schedule. While I have some reservations as to whether people will actually use it, this is precisely the type of stuff US Sailing and the Multihull Racing Committee absolutely should be doing as a service to our members.

Mike


Fair enough - but where did we go wrong scheduling Spring Fever and what would you change?

I haven't finished my run through all of the data (I'm crushed with both 1st work and 2nd work at the moment) and it will probably be several weeks before I get back to it...but I think the scheduling conflict only had a minimal impact on Spring Fever. The decline has been going on for a while. The decline of the Hobie 16 attendance (was once 28 boats and down to 5) was one reason, late notification this year probably didn't help. F18's having a big late 2013 with a large America's Champs in Florida certainly impacted people's travel decisions (I offered free board and competitive boat to some key folks and couldn't entice them to attend). The only scheduling issues I know of is that we probably lost 6 or 8 A-cats to the NC event that also couldn't make it work and was cancelled. The Nacra 17 European event also took away two or three teams. So maybe we could have enticed another 6 or 8 a-caters to sign up IF we had been able to talk the other event organizers into moving their date away from Easter...we know we're not getting the European people to move their dates...so even if we got the A-cat guy's talked into moving their schedule, that still wouldn't have put the event over the threshold.

Besides, we wouldn't likely been able to move Spring Fever away from Easter weekend...so what could we have done differently as it relates to the schedule?
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 03:31 PM

It's not just about the weekend you pick, but the overall big picture (and I'm absolutely not picking a fight with you).

As a reminder, the MRC is more than a few volunteers from various areas of the country. I have been trying to emphasize that this committee is made up of leaders from each of the major classes, and it is in situations like this that it becomes glaringly apparent that we need to improve here.

I have organized more than enough events and seasons to know that, even when there are tons of boats, these decisions can be brutally difficult, and some people and clubs cannot be persuaded. When the core number of boats drops, it becomes absolutely essential to not schedule on top of (or even in close proximity to) one another.

We need to start thinking like a big group, or we may wind up with nothing but a bunch of small groups begging for a start at other events.

Maybe we move MWE to SF next year, and get the A cats to make it a major event. Move it to a biannual schedule.

Let's start thinking way outside the box...

Mike
Posted By: Timbo

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 03:41 PM

What kept me from coming back to Spring Fever in the past was, it was on Easter Weekend. With 4 little kids in the house, I had baskets to fill. Momma wasn't happy with me when I got home from the one time I did go...and it rained, and we were wet and cold in our little tent...and then there was no wind.

In later years as I watched the weather more, being a Florida to Atlanta commuter, it seems the weather is a real crap shoot that time of year in that area. One year it's freezing cold and raining, another it's hot with no wind....so maybe if they moved it to May or June?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 03:44 PM

Jake, I think you are correct... your EMSA scheduling process is probably just right for the region. It sounds like each year you sailors take into account the number of events and the number of sailors. You make the call on the fun factor for each event and the local sailors do their thing.... you guys get the critical mass that works for you...

The local sailors can't get critical mass for Spring Fever
The issue is that the non EMSA fleet failed to show up in numbers.

The problem is.... There is no structure to manage this...

Contrast the Hobie MWE crew with Spring Fever crew...

Who Does Mr Ernie call from each class? Does he need to contact the regional class leaders? Does Mr Ernie even call anyone.... or does he just happily assume that if you build it... they will come. Does Mr Ernie even care what the fleets and classes are up to.. He could think that all that he needs is the email list from the last few years to rally the troops. He just needs to put the web site up a bit earlier... (really???)

Meanwhile... it sounds like the MWE guys have been trying to contact everyone they could... SINCE LAST YEAR and not getting support or clear answers.

The problem is larger then EMSA... and it is larger then the Spring Fever crew or the MWE crew can manage as well.

Chris W.... I wouldn't use the Soprano analogy... I prefer something more sinister... how about the Tri Lateral commission!
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo


In later years as I watched the weather more, being a Florida to Atlanta commuter, it seems the weather is a real crap shoot that time of year in that area.


Partly because Easter moves, too. Some years it's brutally early in the year (for GA)... dang solar/lunar cycles. I've got enough of them in the house.... frown
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by brucat

Let's start thinking way outside the box...

Mike


First Hiram's, then SF? What's next? Please don't say T-winds... I'm downloading charts of Florida Bay to get there..
Posted By: bacho

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 04:33 PM

The more I look at Jake's data from past events, I have come to the conclusion that Spring Fever could have happened. The numbers cannot take into account the late notice on getting the website up, and even later registration opened up.

How can you compare 10 days of time compared to nearly 2 months last year? People are generally slow to sign up, and plenty of people assume that others will take care of the problems. I also feel that the "warning" about the lack of critical mass could have been done a little differently and a change in timing may have affected the outcome.

I think I see a few places that the system could be improved, but I don't think the past formula is that kept SF from happening this year. I am thinking that it wasn't exactly given a proper chance.

Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
It's not just about the weekend you pick, but the overall big picture (and I'm absolutely not picking a fight with you).

As a reminder, the MRC is more than a few volunteers from various areas of the country. I have been trying to emphasize that this committee is made up of leaders from each of the major classes, and it is in situations like this that it becomes glaringly apparent that we need to improve here.

I have organized more than enough events and seasons to know that, even when there are tons of boats, these decisions can be brutally difficult, and some people and clubs cannot be persuaded. When the core number of boats drops, it becomes absolutely essential to not schedule on top of (or even in close proximity to) one another.

We need to start thinking like a big group, or we may wind up with nothing but a bunch of small groups begging for a start at other events.

Maybe we move MWE to SF next year, and get the A cats to make it a major event. Move it to a biannual schedule.

Let's start thinking way outside the box...

Mike


No fight being picked here either...I still don't think that having a(nother) master nation wide schedule would have changed Spring Fever's fate this year. However, your point about working with the classes and keeping an active dialog would probably make a difference. Maybe the master schedule provides a conduit for it - it's the one time of year our group's organization is most active by far when we are hashing out the schedule. The trick would be getting it done in a manner that can both span some time (allowing people to go back and check / discuss their schedules with their folks) and be open while being directed on point.
Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jake, I think you are correct... your EMSA scheduling process is probably just right for the region. It sounds like each year you sailors take into account the number of events and the number of sailors. You make the call on the fun factor for each event and the local sailors do their thing.... you guys get the critical mass that works for you...

The local sailors can't get critical mass for Spring Fever
The issue is that the non EMSA fleet failed to show up in numbers.

The problem is.... There is no structure to manage this...

Contrast the Hobie MWE crew with Spring Fever crew...

Who Does Mr Ernie call from each class? Does he need to contact the regional class leaders? Does Mr Ernie even call anyone.... or does he just happily assume that if you build it... they will come. Does Mr Ernie even care what the fleets and classes are up to.. He could think that all that he needs is the email list from the last few years to rally the troops. He just needs to put the web site up a bit earlier... (really???)

Meanwhile... it sounds like the MWE guys have been trying to contact everyone they could... SINCE LAST YEAR and not getting support or clear answers.

The problem is larger then EMSA... and it is larger then the Spring Fever crew or the MWE crew can manage as well.

Chris W.... I wouldn't use the Soprano analogy... I prefer something more sinister... how about the Tri Lateral commission!


EMSA doesn't have enough active sailors to keep Spring Fever alive alone. I would say that all of our active sailors (except one pair who had a conflict) signed up in force. Our regattas have been in decline over the last 12 years as well and a good regatta for us is 15-20 boats.

You are hitting on some of the same points as brucat and I think this is probably the single most valuable thing that we can do is get the classes to come together to talk strategy. There could be some positive impact if we did manage to combine efforts and combine events. I'm not sure if that's doable or not.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 04:57 PM

2
Originally Posted by brucat
Dave, I tend to agree, but it was brought up and had support at the meeting. As I mentioned above, I am skeptical for exactly the same reasons as you. We might just need to do a better job of using and advertising what's already out there.

Having said that, if enough people want this, and we have someone willing to manage it, I will fully support the effort and get US Sailing to help support and promote it. We had staff support for the idea in the room as well.

Mike


Mike I'm not saying don't do it, it won't hurt anything to have another schedule. My point is the issue isn't a lack of published schedules. I also caution against running down rabbit holes created by people that don't go to regatta's and won't go no matter what we do. How many times have we made changes to accomodate these people only to have them not show up anyway. If you're going to burn cycles burn those cycles on solving the schedule saturation problem. This is NOT a simple task and requires a huge amount of cooperation. If USSailing can pull this one task off I might have my faith restored.

We also have to acknowledge the elepant in the room which is the sport has been on the decline for a very long time and we are feeling the pinch and will continue to feel the pinch for some time, the beach isn't getting less gray. So, reduce the scheule and make the survioring regattas as hassle free and enjoyable as possible and listen to those that attend regattas they are the ones that are heavily invested.
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 05:25 PM

All you really have to do when scheduling a regatta is go to our Events Page, where almost every event in the nation and other nations is posted by area, and by three other listings: Major Regattas, Long Distance Races and For Bigger Boats.

Admittedly, it is like pulling teeth to get local folks to tell me about their events, but usually by about this time of the year folks get the hint and start sending me info.

Right now take a look at Mountain Area (NOthing Scheduled), North West, (finally one event showed up, otherwise Nothing Scheduled)

Other areas, i.e., Southeast, South, Midwest, Southwest and East all have folks that send me everthing they have.

Worst are Northeast, Northwest and Mountain. And those are the areas that have the least amount of activity anyway.

In other words, why invent another wheel, when you already have a very extensive scheduling device. Just use it.
Rick
Posted By: catandahalf

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 06:44 PM

Fairlie Brinkley told me that in the southern part of the state (Clearwater down to Miami) the yacht clubs build schedules two years in advance. Many of the PHRF events have evaporated for various reasons, including yc leadership changes in philosophy, available sponsorship, and the general reduction of sailors at events. The loss of sponsors has played the greater role.

Community sailing programs for high school students could be a way to freshen the spirit and build a future. Fairlie has been pushing this strongly in the Dunedin and Clearwater area. Fairlie and Means Davis are strong supporters of the Opti family and the multihull community. Without them, we would have found it difficult for us to improve our race management practices.

Mike, just a suggestion - head south and meet some of us face to face. Work a regatta down here in cat central, and give us a chance to know you. I have been traveling since 2009, and I can say that the acquisition of modern practices is currently playing a role on our bay and within the GYA.
Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 07:29 PM

Here's a couple of things that we are actively trying this year that we haven't done in the past to increase interest in our area (and some of it is showing promise).

1) Get the word OUT. Channels of communication aren't what they used to be and just knowing that there is a regatta coming doesn't cut it anymore. Embrace the Facebook generation. It sounds stupid to those of us were in high school while The Cars were making hits...I certainly used to think it was stupid...but it's not. We had two new boats show up at our regatta last week because of some of our publicity both on Facebook and putting some extra energy into our website. At that small regatta? That was a 15% increase in participation.

2) Schedule early - prompt early, push early. This one sounds kinda silly too but there's some truth to it. Not only is getting the word out important, but I'm really starting to believe that getting it out EARLY is critical to the fringe sailors. I've started pumping up events and making a roll call (yahoo conversation forum) three weeks or more in advance. Not only does this put you on the calendar but it shows interest and excitement and energy. It really does rub off.

3) There are x-boat sailors out there that either don't know about our organized activities or don't care. I plan to find out more this year. A couple of our sailors actively sell pieces parts and they touch base with a lot of cat sailors that we've never heard of. Bach was telling me that we would be surprised with how many of them are out there. We're going to find them and try to understand where their interests lie. From the outside, I'm pretty sure we look pretty damn intimidating now that we've been reduced to mostly serious sailors with the expensive shiny rigs.

4) Publicity. I just ordered 250 EMSA "hello" introductory business cards with our 2014 schedule on the back (actually, 500 because Vista Print tricked me). I'll be passing these out to all of our sailors at the next events and asking them to give to people that ask about our boats at the gas station and leave them with the people that have boats in their yards. Heck, just last week I just noticed that a guy down the street from me has THREE decent looking Hobie 16s in his driveway. If I can't get THAT guy out to a regatta, something is wrong.

5) Hobie Division 9. Mark Van Doren is striking up the old Hobie Division 9 that is what EMSA was before "the edict". Acting mostly alone, he has breathed life into the Hobie 16 in our area and is bringing boats to regattas. They're defining a Hobie circuit that partners with a couple of our official regattas. They're setting an example and hopefully the trend continues and we all benefit through increased participation.

There are a lot of factors involved that are contributing to our declining sport but, as organizers, we need to check our attitudes and make sure we're not sitting around shrugging our shoulders like a bunch of old farts. Times have changed. People communicate in different ways. Their needs are different. This isn't easy and the answers are not certain but we can improve the situation with a little effort. At the very least, there's little harm in trying a few different things.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by RickWhite

In other words, why invent another wheel, when you already have a very extensive scheduling device. Just use it.
Rick


Valid point, but is this schedule reaching any audience besides the dedicated beachcat racing fleet? Do paper clubs (multihull and otherwise) know of this resource?

There are several casual beachcat sailors I talk to at my local paper club (Gulf Coast Sail Club) who might be enticed to participate (PHRF most likely - I've directed them to your calendar).

Since most of the sailing community is aware of US Sailing in general, it was my opinion that it might be the most recognizable source of information to be looked at by those outside your "circle of trust"

We are trying to maintain/build fleet sizes, right? And not by sniping other active racing fleets?

And I feel the pain somewhat trying to dig up F24 owners and get them on the water - if for no other reason than 2 boat testing. Some of the events which show reasonable attendance (enough for their own start) may be formats / dates/ locations I'm not particularly fond of (MKL and Onsgard's contingent, for instance - tough logistics), but I should show to support the fleet...
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 07:50 PM

More great comments.

Regarding me and travel: If your event needs a PRO, I'll get on a plane. I'm certified and have been at it up to the NA level longer than just about anyone on our side of the sport. I travel quite a bit already to support regattas, sometimes hiding on mark boats.

I've traveled to each of the past three US Sailing annual meetings, didn't see too many of you there (even when it was in FL last fall). Regatta organizers might want to look at those meetings when planning as well.

The Alter Cup will be in my backyard this year, no reason we can't set up a MRC social night. The NOR currently lists Friday night as free time...

Anything we can do as a collective group will make our side of the sport more attractive to potential cat sailors. All eyes have been on multihulls for a few years now, let's start building together.

Mike
Posted By: Andy Humphries

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 08:32 PM

There is also a comprehensive calendar of events on www.thebeachcats.com.
Posted By: catman

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by catandahalf
Fairlie Brinkley told me that in the southern part of the state (Clearwater down to Miami) the yacht clubs build schedules two years in advance. Many of the PHRF events have evaporated for various reasons, including yc leadership changes in philosophy, available sponsorship, and the general reduction of sailors at events. The loss of sponsors has played the greater role.

Community sailing programs for high school students could be a way to freshen the spirit and build a future. Fairlie has been pushing this strongly in the Dunedin and Clearwater area. Fairlie and Means Davis are strong supporters of the Opti family and the multihull community. Without them, we would have found it difficult for us to improve our race management practices.

Mike, just a suggestion - head south and meet some of us face to face. Work a regatta down here in cat central, and give us a chance to know you. I have been traveling since 2009, and I can say that the acquisition of modern practices is currently playing a role on our bay and within the GYA.


In fact our group takes the Dunedin kids sailing. They started a high school program last year with next to nothing and now have 30 kids.

We take them sailing again Sunday April 13th. We are working on taking them out two times this year. We have 36 kids to take sailing so if your in the area with your boat and want to help PM me. I also have an nice H-16 that someone could use for that event.

Posted By: rehmbo

Re: I don't get it. - 03/28/14 09:17 PM

Issues with the various "thebeachcats" and "catsailor" and "hobie" and other schedules is that they are often incomplete and lack any attempt at a central organizing catalyst.

From a collecting the information together standpoint, I'd prefer a table style with weekends going down the rows, regional organizers (EMSA, NENSA, CRAM, CRAW, etc.) in the columns, and events filling out the field. Can't speak for other regions, but CRAM does actively communicate with CRAW and ORCA to try to coordinate the larger event dates.

FWIW, our CRAM Caseville event (July 11-13) already has 18 boats registered including 10 F18s. I'm literally looking at piles of snow on the ground, the event is still 3.5 months away, and yet we already know we're going to have a successful event. Point is that it is possible to make this work if its done right. It all comes down to early and frequent communication in all it's various forms: email, social media, phone calls, over a beer, etc.

We're working very hard to make the dead-boat society feel welcome as well and are seeing some real success there. We got lot's of 'em here in MI, and those guys are always a ton of fun. As well, the Weta guys will be sailing with us at Muskegon at the end of July - they're expecting at least 5-6 of them to show up.
Posted By: H17cat

Re: I don't get it. - 03/29/14 03:41 AM

Schedule for the North West http://hobiefleet95.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/2014-Event-Schedule-R9.pdf
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 03/29/14 04:32 AM

I love it when a plan comes together.
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: I don't get it. - 03/29/14 11:48 AM

Nice points, Jake.
I have editorialized this subject a gazillion times. Lots of fleets/whatever try to promote their event and then after it is over.., total radio silence.
No word of any kind. In most cases I have to beg for a story, pix, results.., anything. I would think getting a story out to the media is as important as getting out pre-event promotion. people like to see themselves in print, pix, name even if last place in the results.

I know event organizers are usually burnt out afterwards, but it is so important to get those sailors back next year.

After the events here in Key Largo, on Monday I send out a story with a few selected pix to all the newspaper, Southwinds, or whoever. Takes a few minutes and community gets to see some action besides high school basketball.
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 03/29/14 02:47 PM

Can't agree enough with Rick and Jake.

Improved online presence ("live" mark roundings at major events, etc.), press and publicity, etc. are things that form a perception to sailors who have not yet attended your event. Most of these things are cheap (free) and take little effort, but pay huge dividends when trying to attract sailors, sponsors, etc. for future events.

As I've mentioned since coming into this job, this is one area where some of our individual classes shine (at least among themselves), and others can learn; but there's no reason we can't be working together to improve across the board. None of this is proprietary (or rocket science).

My vision for a better US multihull world is for the MRC to serve as a best-practices clearinghouse and guidance forum, for the classes to learn from one another.

Progress has been painfully slow (for a variety of valid reasons), but I think this year, you will see the wheels really starting to turn on this.

Of course, as mentioned many times above, we can lead the horse to water, but cannot make it drink. Hopefully, the loss of SF will not only be temporary, but can also serve as a catalyst to move us (as in, all of us including everyone here) into action.

Mike
Posted By: MVD

Re: I don't get it. - 03/30/14 04:10 PM

I'm late to this discussion, thanks to Chris Wessels for calling in a head's up. I recently moved to Knoxville from Louisiana after a 23-year career as a military officer. I understand the importance of organization and structure, more on that shortly. Upon arrival here, the Hobie Class Association asked me to be the Division 9 Chairman (GA, SC, NC, East TN, Va Beach, VA). Being a new guy in this region, it’s taken a while to see how EMSA works and to understand the issues we have here. I’ve been hesitant to start telling the veterans here what’s wrong with cat sailing, but I think this discussion is a good place for me to jump in. You guys have made some excellent points in these posts, and I'd like to weigh-in with my observations and suggestions.

First, there is no shortage of regattas in our region - quite the opposite. It’s great that so many people want to host regattas, but as some of you have noted, the calendar is saturated. The folks who continue to race cats have so many choices that the population of active cat racers is spread too thin. Jake does an excellent job of putting events on the schedule. Currently there are 30 of them. They are divided into 10 EMSA events and 20 others "of interest". However, when a bunch of people jump on the yahoo group and start trying to promote a bunch of the "of interest" regattas, the original EMSA events begin to lose their significance. It makes you wonder, “What’s the significance of an EMSA event?” “Why should there be a difference?” Without any structure, organization, or leadership, it’s just a free for all.

That brings up my second point: lack of leadership. I’m not slamming anyone, especially Jake, it appears that he’s the only one putting forth any significant effort at the macro level. Not only does he work hard compiling and publishing a schedule, but he also moderates the CatamaranCrazy yahoo group which is the primary means for communication among cat sailors in our region. But beyond that, we need a decision making body that can influence which regattas get emphasized and perhaps which classes show up where and how many classes show up at a given regatta. Much easier said than done. For starters, there would be no way to make this group of Spranos’ decisions binding on anyone. If ABC Yacht Club wanted to invite cats or a certain class to their event, there’s nothing that says the club can’t do so and nothing that says sailors can’t take them up on their invitation. My impression is that cat sailing in our region, not necessarily just EMSA, has fallen under the spell of a culture that shuns rules and organization. Most of these folks it seems just want to be a free spirits and do as they please, or do things the way they’ve been doing them. Well, we see where that has led. There has to be some structure and organization.

So, how best to organize? As best I can tell, EMSA has been working things based on events. Putting events on Jake’s calendar has driven everything. With an absence of leadership and organization, that was the best thing he could do for us. However, a better way to organize would be by classes. Well before the season starts, like in November, we need to have delegates from the Hobie Class, the Isotopes, A-Cats, the F18s and F16s (are there any other classes of significance around here?) physically meet somewhere in a central location and discuss the most efficient way to focus classes on existing regattas. We won’t be able to focus on all of them, and we can focus multiple classes on the same regattas. This may be an odd concept, but the classes need the mutual support of one another to keep our regattas afloat. We’ll also need to consider deconfliction on the calendar and even avoid back-to-back weekends if possible. We’ll need to impress upon the yacht clubs the necessity for early scheduling, lest they be left out in the cold. Perhaps Spring Fever should reconsider Easter weekend. There will be some tough decisions made. Not every club’s regatta will be emphasized and their attendance will suffer. But if we don’t do anything, we’ll continue to see the decline that led to the demise of Spring Fever.

During my short tenure in Division 9, I’ve focused on the Hobie classes because 1) it’s my responsibility, and 2) I didn’t think I’d earn anyone’s support if I were perceived as the new guy trying to tell the establishment how to organize their regattas. But I’ll tell you what seems to be working with rejuvenating the Hobie classes. I’ve taken the approach of trying to designate just a few regattas, three this year, as HCANA sanctioned points regattas. The “Points Regatta” designation is critical because if we are to get Hobie sailors to travel to our regattas from other regions, they need to know that it fits the one-design Hobie standard – basically, a quality control endorsement ensuring that one-design Hobie classes have their own starts. I didn’t want to pursue this at every EMSA event or every “of interest” event because I was concerned about the dangers of schedule saturation. My vision is for Hobie sailors to focus on a few events so they’ll be well attended and competitive, and hence more fun, which will keep people coming back. It’s great for the competitors and great for the clubs hosting us at their regattas. And we aren’t taking a Hobie-only approach to these regattas. A lot of people are still uptight over the “edict” years ago, but things have loosened up since then.

One of the obstacles that I’ve come across is reluctance to change – some organizers either want to handicap the Hobie classes so they can accommodate singlehanders or Hobies with non-legal sails, or they want us to start on the line with a bunch of other boats but score us separately. They’ve always done it that way. But both situations are in violation of Hobie class rules, and more importantly, they have the effect of degrading the quality of racing for the majority of Hobie sailors to accommodate a few who could be in compliance with some effort – and money, no one said this sport was cheap. But the reluctance to change has influenced which events will be included in our Hobie Division 9 schedule. The three events that are on our schedule have agreed to accommodate our class rules and will get a strong turnout of Hobies which will support their bottom lines. Spring Fever wouldn’t change their model to accommodate us, so it didn’t get put on the Hobie calendar and wasn’t emphasized in the Hobie world – not many Hobies signed up. The point is: if you are organizing a regatta, be open to change – embrace one-design classes and accommodate them, Hobie or otherwise, that want to come to your regattas. Try to improve the quality of racing, don’t just settle for the status quo or keep doing something just because you always have. There are a bunch of regattas out there and recruiting sailors is going to become a competitive proposition.

Let's make some changes and get our sport back on track! Let's start discussing whose going to represent the classes, consider an agenda, and start thinking about a late fall meeting.

Mark Van Doren
HCANA Division 9 Chairman
Posted By: bacho

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by MVD


First, there is no shortage of regattas in our region - quite the opposite. It’s great that so many people want to host regattas, but as some of you have noted, the calendar is saturated. The folks who continue to race cats have so many choices that the population of active cat racers is spread too thin. Jake does an excellent job of putting events on the schedule. Currently there are 30 of them. They are divided into 10 EMSA events and 20 others "of interest". However, when a bunch of people jump on the yahoo group and start trying to promote a bunch of the "of interest" regattas, the original EMSA events begin to lose their significance. It makes you wonder, “What’s the significance of an EMSA event?” “Why should there be a difference?” Without any structure, organization, or leadership, it’s just a free for all.

That brings up my second point: lack of leadership. I’m not slamming anyone, especially Jake, it appears that he’s the only one putting forth any significant effort at the macro level. Not only does he work hard compiling and publishing a schedule, but he also moderates the CatamaranCrazy yahoo group which is the primary means for communication among cat sailors in our region. But beyond that, we need a decision making body that can influence which regattas get emphasized and perhaps which classes show up where and how many classes show up at a given regatta. Much easier said than done. For starters, there would be no way to make this group of Spranos’ decisions binding on anyone. If ABC Yacht Club wanted to invite cats or a certain class to their event, there’s nothing that says the club can’t do so and nothing that says sailors can’t take them up on their invitation. My impression is that cat sailing in our region, not necessarily just EMSA, has fallen under the spell of a culture that shuns rules and organization. Most of these folks it seems just want to be a free spirits and do as they please, or do things the way they’ve been doing them. Well, we see where that has led. There has to be some structure and organization.


Mark Van Doren
HCANA Division 9 Chairman




I am lucky to live in the Central of the EMSA region and events. All of the events on the schedule are within a 3 hour drive for me and many of our group. That means we can get home in time for dinner on Sunday most of the time. Many of the "interest" races are much farther away. These might be notable class championships or distance races, They are also races that people on the fringe of our area might attend as the drive for them may be prohibitive. I do not recall too much promotion of the interest events, other than telling our group about it. Our group will show up in force to all of the scheduled events. I don't think there is much indecision for a member to choose with race to attend.

I think you may have the idea that our traveling group is larger than it is. I don't think sending boats to a regatta by class is gonna do much for us. I don't have any faith that the people who do not currently travel will start traveling. I also wouldn't trade 3 small open fleet regattas for one large regatta.

Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 01:47 PM

Mark,

I certainly do appreciate and admire the effort you are putting into getting the Hobie classes rejuvenated in Division 9. You are making an impact and inspiring me to keep pushing to find new sailors as well. You are at a bit of a disadvantage because you haven't been in the area long enough to see how EMSA has evolved but we have done many of the things you have pointed out. I think the biggest misconception about EMSA is that we're some huge outfit. In reality, we're made up of about 20 to 25 sailors that are all good friends and we see each other often. I'm probably one of the most publicly outspoken of the group, but several others do a ton of work to make everything work. I don't want to list names for fear of leaving someone out - but just about everyone in the group contributes in some way. We don't have memberships or membership fees but we get it done because we're passionate and we all work together very well with very little in the way of politics.

About 5 or 6 years ago, we had over 20 regattas on our schedule and many of them were on back to back weekends. We did reduce those down to try and focus our attendance to key ones and it helped a bit. We also tried to spread regattas out more evenly throughout the calendar year but the middle summer is not the greatest time to have regattas due to a lack of wind in the region. When we have a conflict, we discuss and agree on which event we will support and everyone follows suit. Since then, our scheduled events have migrated back a little closer into the spring and fall with a lull in the mid-summer but we're pretty happy with how things are scheduled because the weather is usually more favorable in the spring and fall. There is also an aspect of politics to the schedule that if we eliminate a particular regatta we alienate the sailors that closely associated to it and it could have a negative impact on an exchange of effort on several other events. It may not be incredibly visible but we do put a good bit of thought into how our schedule is structured. Much of it leans on the previous year and we only need to discuss the details if dates and weekends change (we didn't have any of that this year). We have 10 official regattas over the course of the year. I think that's a pretty reasonable number.

The reduction in regattas several years ago resulted in the list of "official" EMSA regattas. However, we recognize that some of the classes, like the Isotopes for instance, are concentrated at one particular club. They are going to attend their regatta even though it no longer falls into the "official" list. Similarly, the Div. 9 Hobie 16 class is going to go to James Island later this year which is a one design regatta which doesn't meet EMSA needs for an "official" regatta (since the majority of our sailors would not be permitted to attend). These events still show on the schedule as "other events" because it is an important event in the area to consider and it's important to some of the sailors in the area. It's going to take place whether or not EMSA supports it. We also want all of the multihull sailors in the area to be able to find pertinent information on our site so we list those events as "other events of interest". This allows us to work around them and also keep EMSA relevant to the sailors in our area.

With regards to our lack of formal organization, we could go back to elected officers and put a structure in place but we're just not that big. We do generally have a short planned meeting every year to discuss any important matters but we are small and see each other often. We act like 20 guys sitting in a lounge because that's literally what we are. Personally, I feel like it's effective for the time being. When it gets to be like herding cats again or we have a need for funds, I'll be in favor of re-establishing some structure. The A-cat leadership, F18 leadership, F16 leadership, and our existing Hobie 16 and Hobie 18 leadership are all part of the group and the conversation. Keep in mind, though, there are only 3 or 4 active F18 sailors, 8 to 12 A-cat sailors, 4 or 5 F16 sailors, etc. in the area. Organizing our groups isn't complicated and having a conversation with any of these classes takes place at the events. If we need to buy or repair a mark, someone usually takes care of it or we make the need known and we pitch in a few bucks. Our website is hosted for free by someone that used to sail actively with us but doesn't anymore. At the end of the day, our organization works for us but I can see how looking at it from the outside-in is confusing (you are probably the only person in that unenviable position). To help, I'll be glad to point you in the right direction to discuss any issues with the right folks if you have a need.

That said, I do realize that there have been some cases where things got complicated with a few event organizers with the upstart Hobie Division 9 and I think it's mostly just a bit of a growing pain while you guys gain some footing. With regards to our regatta management, probably 2/3rds of our events have a PRO and/or organizer that is a tightly knit member of EMSA and we have some collective input on how some of those events are managed. In other cases, maybe an organizer has their own idea about how they want things or are not tightly knit within the EMSA ranks. We are often not in a position of strength (nor are we inclined in several cases) to make any kinds of demands or requirements on everyone that hosts an EMSA regatta. Frankly, we're glad that some of them are still happy to see us! (the Outback Cup, for example...we had to do some politicking just to get invited back again after we dropped it off our main event schedule one year due to a conflict with a long standing EMSA regatta). At the end of the day, we're all about getting some growth going in our sport and our groups only serve to benefit each other. Once you get to know us a little better I'm sure it will start to make more sense. In the meantime, it may help to know that I can probably point you to several people that would make a good ambassador (including myself) to work between our groups. Once we've established a working method that pleases everyone it will serve as the example and things will get smoother. Bare What you Dare will be a good opportunity to do exactly that.




Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 02:23 PM

FYI: We lost the bulk of our F-18 registrations at MWE to other classes (both boats.....) so if you know someone that was coming on an F18 and didn't pre register, can you tell them we don't have a fleet signed up any more.
Good conversation going. MVD is an exceptional networker and is doing great things in Div 9 for the HCA, especially with the uphill battles HCA has to fight in the South. If a group of some sort is formed to put together a schedule, it would be well served to include Mark, as he is out to have make it work and have fun doing it.
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 02:51 PM

Chris: Thoughts about HCA partnering with SF to host MWE as part of a huge comeback next year?

Mike
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 04:06 PM

Give me a call at 641-423-7638x16 to give me an idea what you're thinking. I have a plan coming into focus for next year but its barely started.
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by RickWhite


Other areas, i.e., Southeast, South, Midwest, Southwest and East all have folks that send me everthing they have.

Worst are Northeast, Northwest and Mountain. And those are the areas that have the least amount of activity anyway.


Rick, I'm curious what you mean by this. The Northeast is probably the most active cat sailing region in the country between F18s in New England and Hobies in upstate New York.

That is too bad that no one has been sending you the schedule. I will see what I can do about that.

The Northeast F18 fleet uses USF18.com to display our calendar. http://usf18.com/events/
We have 11 events scheduled between May and October all which will have 12-20 boats and we may reach above 20 for a few.

As members of our fleet manage that website, it's tough for them to update it elsewhere and doesn't make sense as if it changes we like to have one go to as the official calendar.

We also post an event summary after every event with a story and pictures on USF18.com and publcize it on facebook and twitter.
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 05:15 PM

That's great Todd, but it can't hurt to think bigger.

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 05:50 PM

How can we think bigger? USF18.com is our national website- it is supposed to be a one stop shop for all the F18 information you need. I also send our national and area championship dates to the international class so they go on the international class website.

Like Todd said, my goal is for anyone who needs information about an F18 event to go to USF18.com and it will be there and current. The schedule on the website is run through google calendars which are usually owned by me and an area rep from each district.

Another factor that might be changing the regatta landscape is the type of regattas various classes are racing in. I know for our fleet, we have a balance of multi-class events like Wickford, Newport, Hyannis, and HPDO that only invite the F18 class as a one design, and smaller events like Madison, NE100, and Roton where a handicap fleet is welcome.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
That's great Todd, but it can't hurt to think bigger.

Mike


www.google.com with search words "multihull regatta schedule". Very comprehensive result and took 5 seconds.

You might want to take a look at this site http://www.regattadates.com/ if you still think we still need another source for regatta schedules.


The NE guys are doing it right IMO they embrased using social media as a tool to get the word out years ago. I also have a feeling they have tried or are curretly doing all the suggestions contained in this thread and could tell you what worked and what didn't.

There is no such thing as a one size fits all when it comes to putting on regatta's. Know your audiance, know who the spark plugs are and above all else listen to them and leverage their knowledge. These folks are dialed in to their fleet and often know which regattas their fleet members will attend and why. Find them and use them, ignore them or think you know better will only do a diservice to your regatta.
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 07:26 PM

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with the F18 class, or the HCA for that matter (our two strongest classes with typically the best ideas and promotion), but there is always room for improvement. In this case, I'm thinking of the interaction of the classes for the benefit of those classes and all beach cats in general.

SF cratered, MWE can't get F18s to come out. I would not say we're doing everything we can to make things better. I don't expect this to be popular, but stop being defensive and be willing to take some new approaches.

Mike
Posted By: bacho

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 08:26 PM

I don't think we need to jump to too many drastic changes over SF. I'm convinced that had a lot to do with late notice and short registration time.

Has anyone bothered to ask f18 groups about the lack of interest in MWE?

Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
I don't think we need to jump to too many drastic changes over SF. I'm convinced that had a lot to do with late notice and short registration time.

Has anyone bothered to ask f18 groups about the lack of interest in MWE?



It would be interesting to see the proximity of class sailors and these events...I know we started something like that for F18s and the F16 guys had a very complete map. What site was that? Was it google?

I suspect that the MWE event does not have a ton of active F18 sailors in close proximity and it's kind of an "also ran" event where the F18s activity is sort of a byline. Don't get me wrong...I think it's an incredible gesture to open it up like they have.

For our F18 team specifically, it's a bit far and would land on our extended event schedule (more than a weekend) where we only have room for two, maybe three, of those types of events. We had Spring Fever, F18 America's Champs, and likely Steeplechase on the list for this year already. MWE fell too close to the SF cancellation for us to really consider it.

Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
I don't think we need to jump to too many drastic changes over SF. I'm convinced that had a lot to do with late notice and short registration time.

Has anyone bothered to ask f18 groups about the lack of interest in MWE?



You are probably right about SF for this year, but Jake's graph tells a sadder story.

This whole thread started by Chris asking what went wrong with F18s and MWE.

I know we have a sordid history of playing well together; I'm just hopeful that we can start turning things around as a big group rather than as one small group at a time. Yes, small events are important, and classes grow locally one boat at a time, but I see lots of potential for everyone to grow together.

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by bacho


Has anyone bothered to ask f18 groups about the lack of interest in MWE?



Sarasota Sailing Squadron is having the Sarasota Sailfest the same weekend. Right now SSS is the center of the univerise for F18 sailing in FL especially for the young and energetic.

Dick MacDonald is gearing up for the FL300 and is focused on doing distance races, MKL, Tampa Run...

Fred from the Panhandle won't do bouy's

Matt DeRego's boat hasn't been delivered.

Taylor is consumed by his olympic activities.

For me, it's really difficult to justify the 10 hour drive one way to race against Hobie 20's, sounds like a great venue and even better people, maybe slip to ship.

I'm also in a small group that is even willing to consider driving 10 hours one way to a regatta.

I can't speak for the Texas F18 sailors.

Our schedule:

SSS - April 5&6
SF - April 18-20 (Cancelled)
Gulfport (FL) april 26 & 27
MKL April 26 & 27

Mug Race May 5&6
Tampa Run May 10 & 11
FL300 May 19 - 22
KPRR May 24 & 25
Summer Sizzler June 14&15

After June FL turns into furnice.






Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 09:19 PM

No one is being defensive. Everything we do is thought out based on past experience and what is doable for those willing to do it. We are listening to your input and willing to try new things but trying new things takes more work.
We are doing what works for us here in our region.
Jeff and others spend a lot of time and energy organizing the schedule and other aspects. It's tiring and there is only so much time for it. If we had more people stepping up to help say spread the calendar around to Catsailor, Regattadates.com and etc then it would be much more doable. We even elected a Media guy last year but he didn't sail all season because of family reasons so we didn't get much out of him.
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 09:24 PM

For northern sailors participation in southern events. I don't speak for everyone, but traditionally I am one of the more active particants in southern events and always encourage participation of others in our fleet.
We only have so many resources. Getting to MS isn't easy. There are also very few F18s around there. I wanted to go but my schedule is slammed and we are going to start sailing up here a week later, so why bother spending a lot of money and time to go. As far as Spring Fever goes, the party is amazing and I love going, but the sailing has never been worth the 32+ hours of driving when we can train up here against 5-10 other boats and get ready for the season here.
If we could pull together Charleston Race Week at a reasonable entry fee I think it would be much more appealing to NE boats as we would be sailing a regatta with a lot of our other sailing friends (most important about that is getting exposure), it's a conveinent stop on the way back from Florida, and likely to be very good sailing conditions.
I'm much more likely to do a midwinter event when I really have the sailing bug rather than right before our season starts.
I also chose to spend my money to go to Florida than MS or GA, can you blame me? We even have a rough time getting a good fleet at Tradewinds. There's only so many events we can support.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 09:43 PM

Okay, that is what I asking in the first place. There is lots of stuff going on and as long as there are reasons other than 'we hate HCA' then I am good. smile
We want to end up being one of the go to regattas for the F18 class going forward, we'll do everything that needs to be done, you just got to show up. We are at OSYC this year, might move east a bit for next and who knows where beyond that (due to hit Ft Lauderdale again in the next few years) I just want to know what we need to do to get on your long term schedule (F-18 class) and since we started this thread, we as a group, have come to the realization that there is a need to open up communication lines regarding scheduling, and maybe being more open to OD racing at 'all boat' regattas. We would really like to have an OD start at SF for the Hobie 16 and feel that we'd be able to bring some boats in the manner that we used
to.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: I don't get it. - 03/31/14 10:26 PM

I think Todd made a good point when he mentioned that the Northern boats are more likely to attend a southern event when it is in the middle of the winter and not so close to our season. In my mind, a midwinters means January or February. For the F18 class in particular, we also have Tradewinds labeled as our Midwinters, and SF was the Southern Area Champs, so those took a slightly higher priority on the schedule.

Also, nothing at all against HCA, but calling the event "Hobie MWE" might hurt F18 turnout because when folks scan a calendar they may not realize the regatta is open to non-Hobies. The class did try:
http://usf18.com/hobie-midwinters-is-open-to-f18s-save-the-date/
Posted By: coralreefer

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 02:39 AM

I’d like to contribute to this discussion, I agree that there appears to be a short fall of sailors for the number of events scheduled.

From my standpoint I am happy with one regatta a month, any more than that and I am asking too much of my crew (wife), as I am sure you can all understand. Also, I’d prefer them to be in my general area, that allows me to reach the site by car in 4 hours or less.

Since I am in Fort Myers FL, my schedule filled up with Tradewinds (Jan); Charlotte Harbor (Feb); Gulfport Yachtclub/St. Pete (Apr); Kelly Park/Cape Canavaral (May); summer sizzler/Daytona (June).

To fill the gap between CHR and GYC there are a few local options that make more sense than driving the 10+ hours to MWE, like Miami to Key Largo, bi-weekly club races at GYC, Hospice Regatta in Fort Lauderdale, etc.

I think we all need to start asking what can be done to get more sailors hooked on our sport. Being new to sailing I must admit there are quite a few barriers to entry that I encountered when I first got into the sport a couple of years ago. Had I not been so determined to do get into it, I might have given up very early on.

Without a single yacht club in my area (Fort Myers) I was left to myself to figure it all out. So I purchased a used 1995 Hobie 16 and decided to give it a go. It was not very easy, and I am very lucky that not only does my wife still love me, but she still sails with me, because we certainly had our issues. Especially when I would drag her to regattas and throw ourselves into the fire, “its the only way we can learn” I would tell her.

Well, thank god for the Hobie way of life, as if it were not for all the helpful hands that came to our aid, we would easily have gotten discouraged and gave up. It was the super nice people that kept us going and keeps us coming back.

We need to do everything we can to make it easier for new people to join. It was very difficult to get started.

Not to be a cliche, but we all need to ask ourselves “not what sailing can do for me, but what can I do for sailing”. To commit myself to that, I chose to get involved and pitch in where there was a void. So, as a newbie without a Hobie Fleet in my area, and the Division 8 chair vacant, I decided that I would volunteer for the Division 8 chair, and get involved with supporting Hobie sailing as best I could. Perhaps being a newbie, somewhat ignorant to the history, would be a good thing.

So this year we are working to get Division 8 in Florida going again, much the same way that Mark is with Division 9. We have gotten approval from the HCA board to have four area regattas count towards Hobie Points for the HCA and the Division 8 area. This can only help to encourage sailors to participate in more regattas, to increase membership in the HCA and work towards increasing the number of Hobie Fleets again.

The four regattas are Charlotte Harbor, Gulfport Yacht Club Mulit-hull Regatta, Kelly Park River Regatta, and the Daytona Summer Sizzler. All will have will have their own starts for classes with 5 or more, and comply with Hobie class one design rules.

I also think we do need to work together, and start thinking out of the box, and let go of the past. A while ago the idea was discussed of changing regatta formats and doing an event that incorporated both fleet racing and match racing (like the AC World Series). There were a lot who liked the idea, but without any leadership to run with it, it never got anywhere.

I don’t think that our sport can survive without us working together, the regattas depend on it more now than ever before.

Fred
HCA Division 8 Chair
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 04:50 AM

We appreciate the listing on the F18 site.
Posted By: MVD

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 06:07 AM

Hey Jake,

I appreciate your thoughts and your patience with a new guy. Yes, the whole EMSA thing is a tough nut to get my head around. I look forward to discussing the way forward for all of us at Bare What You Dare.

Fred, you hit it the nail on the head, this sport won't survive unless we work together. If we don't make some changes, we'll see more of the same.

Mark Van Doren
HCANA Division 9 Chairman
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 10:58 AM

Wildsail etal,
Not saying those areas don't have anything going on, it is just that I have no way of knowing what is going on in those areas and one would think, since we are the ONLY media dedicated to beach cat sailing, we would be first on the agenda to get your agenda.
Instead, we get nothing. Sometimes I nose around and find some events in your area, but I would think you would WANT others to know what is going on in your neck of the woods.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 12:19 PM

If you want an Isotope representative, feel free to contact me.

The Isotope class is perhaps unique, in that it is pretty much a single local fleet. Few people race Isotopes outside the North Carolina Piedmont area. Therefore, when we travel to away regattas, we don’t meet other Isotope sailors. We just bring a subset of our regular boats. I find it difficult to justify driving hundreds of miles to race one-design against just 3 of the 12 Isotope skippers that sail every month locally. When I travel, I want to test my skills against different people. I've really enjoyed sailing mixed-fleet on handicap at Catfest, Outback Cup, Spring Fever (et. al.). I hope to do more (and will encourage the other Isotopes to do more) this summer.

Isotopes are more than happy to start and race with with Hobie Cats (and Prindles, Nacras, SuperCats, A Cats, F-boats etc.). Heck, I’ll even race Hobie 17s and 18s boat-for-boat. Come to any CSC or LTYC race at Kerr Lake or Lake Townsend this summer and I’ll do my best to make you feel welcome.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 02:32 PM

Just wanted to add some thoughts about a regatta that is doing a lot of things right. Our fleet is attending the Wickford Regatta this year for the third time, although last year it conflicted with Madcatter and was not part of our summer series. The regatta organizers moved the date of the event in part to make sure our fleet would be there in big numbers. With two months until the regatta, we have 17 boats registered.

Things Wickford does well:
1. The regatta website is clear, concise, and the web address has stayed the same every year. http://wickford.sailspace.net/

2. The regatta is organized by Skip Whyte, who is an absolute legend and has a tremendous amount of enthusiasm for high performance sailing.

3. Skip emailed me June 3, 2013 asking about date conflicts for the 2014 event

4. Skip has been in regular communication with me all winter, and has emailed our fleet list multiple times reminding folks to register

5. The event had a very cheap early entry of $80 that ended March 31. Anyone who registered during that period can cancel with a full refund before May 25- this eliminates any hesitation to register early

6. Great regatta venue, amazing dinner, and host housing if you need it

As the early registration deadline approached, I emailed the fleet twice, posted information to facebook and twitter, and Todd and I called and texted fleet members.
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Andy Humphries
I'm going to stir the pot. Open it up for all cats, not just F18s. We can't afford to exclude anyone.


There is intelligent life on this planet after all...

IMPO all regattas should be open to all that come and put boat n the water.... Maybe scale back on the prizes but all the same...

We had one local event that was "Hobie Only" up until a year or so back... Now that regatta is listed as being *tentative* for 2014, and they didn't have it in 2013... Time to stick a fork in this one as it is done.



Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 03:07 PM

Thanks Red, but the Hobie only regatta is what our charter states except for the exceptions of joining in other peoples regattas. We have worked pretty hard to work around the obstacle that was put upon us and that statement you just made makes it all the tougher. No offense taken on the intelligent life comment either....... frown
Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Andy Humphries
I'm going to stir the pot. Open it up for all cats, not just F18s. We can't afford to exclude anyone.


There is intelligent life on this planet after all...

IMPO all regattas should be open to all that come and put boat n the water.... Maybe scale back on the prizes but all the same...

We had one local event that was "Hobie Only" up until a year or so back... Now that regatta is listed as being *tentative* for 2014, and they didn't have it in 2013... Time to stick a fork in this one as it is done.





There is a reasonable line somewhere and I think the Hobie midwinter event is a reasonable classified class event...consider what you're asking; should the F18 America's Championship be open to every boat? (no). At some point, it makes sense to have a class focused event.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by RickWhite
Wildsail etal,
Not saying those areas don't have anything going on, it is just that I have no way of knowing what is going on in those areas and one would think, since we are the ONLY media dedicated to beach cat sailing, we would be first on the agenda to get your agenda.
Instead, we get nothing. Sometimes I nose around and find some events in your area, but I would think you would WANT others to know what is going on in your neck of the woods.


Yours was always the first place I looked, Rick smile

But yes, it's like looking for easter-eggs sometimes to dig up all the different schedules you can find using Ding's google search. which was why I suggested a multiple-fleet calendar on a universally recognized platform (US Sail) for "one-stop shopping", NOR, registration, payment, results, pictures, etc.

But the general consensus seems to be it's the human touch that generates the attendance. Contacting people directly through personal relationships generates the most interest.. You gain those relationships through your attendance at events. Kind of a "virtuous cycle".

Outreach to dead-boat and idle sailors seems to be the crux of building attendance in general, and how to get that personal outreach to those potentially unknown contacts is a challenge

maybe I don't have my screens optimized, but this posting format (general groups, subject list, then the post thread) is easiest for me to navigate, compared to yahoo! groups or some other forums
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Andy Humphries
I'm going to stir the pot. Open it up for all cats, not just F18s. We can't afford to exclude anyone.


There is intelligent life on this planet after all...

IMPO all regattas should be open to all that come and put boat n the water.... Maybe scale back on the prizes but all the same...

We had one local event that was "Hobie Only" up until a year or so back... Now that regatta is listed as being *tentative* for 2014, and they didn't have it in 2013... Time to stick a fork in this one as it is done.


The ability to invite everyone is event and OA dependent. For our fleet, we attend events such as the Madison Regatta, Roton Point Regatta, and NE 100 where the OAs are smaller catamaran-focused groups and are happy to have an open event. For events like Newport Regatta, Hyannis, and HPDO, the F18 One-Design class is invited, and that is the OAs choice. We feel it is very important for our fleet to attend larger multi-fleet events because that is how we get exposure and grow.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by RickWhite
Wildsail etal,
Not saying those areas don't have anything going on, it is just that I have no way of knowing what is going on in those areas and one would think, since we are the ONLY media dedicated to beach cat sailing, we would be first on the agenda to get your agenda.
Instead, we get nothing. Sometimes I nose around and find some events in your area, but I would think you would WANT others to know what is going on in your neck of the woods.


Like Jay, I come here first to see what/where/when the regattas are, look at the third thread down from the top of this page.

Thanks Rick and Mary for all the work you have done over the years, both with the magazine and this web board, without these two excellent sources of cat sailing/racing info, I'd still be racing monohulls!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
Just wanted to add some thoughts about a regatta that is doing a lot of things right. Our fleet is attending the Wickford Regatta this year for the third time, although last year it conflicted with Madcatter and was not part of our summer series. The regatta organizers moved the date of the event in part to make sure our fleet would be there in big numbers. With two months until the regatta, we have 17 boats registered.

Things Wickford does well:
1. The regatta website is clear, concise, and the web address has stayed the same every year. http://wickford.sailspace.net/

2. The regatta is organized by Skip Whyte, who is an absolute legend and has a tremendous amount of enthusiasm for high performance sailing.

3. Skip emailed me June 3, 2013 asking about date conflicts for the 2014 event

4. Skip has been in regular communication with me all winter, and has emailed our fleet list multiple times reminding folks to register

5. The event had a very cheap early entry of $80 that ended March 31. Anyone who registered during that period can cancel with a full refund before May 25- this eliminates any hesitation to register early

6. Great regatta venue, amazing dinner, and host housing if you need it

As the early registration deadline approached, I emailed the fleet twice, posted information to facebook and twitter, and Todd and I called and texted fleet members.


Brilliant.. These guys know what they are doing..

Registration is one of those activities in life that people go nuts over... both sides of the equation... the club and the sailors. (See Registration chaos at last minute for ACA or any other time in rlife to register for something)

Organizers are reluctant to require the commitment, deadlines, penalties, late fees, no dinner for you etc.. .... Sailors hold back ....because.. (something better will come along… or... ITS a MISTAKE!!! However...

REGISTRATION makes that future happen... the organizers are pumped up when a big fleet is REALLY committed and REGISTERED in coming racing... They want to do a great job.. When a sailor has thrown their hat in the ring... they have signed up.. and Paid with their check or credit card... Life then happens to make their attendance happen in reality. That is just the way it works! Wickfords pre registration policy has integrity.

It is half assed to have a sign up sheet on the web without requiring the financial commitment. (Yes.. its better then nothing… but you need both sides of the equation.) Spring Fever does not require pre payment... and that delivers a certain message.... Sorry, It is just the way humans work.... The promise of swag so long as you sign up... is NOT the same as REGISTRATION with integrity

The constant communication between the OA/YC and the fleet captains... and the fleet captains with the sailors is key...
Again... in a perfect world... you may not need this constant communication... but.. people are people. Spring Fever does things their way and it can bite you in the butt.
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Andy Humphries
I'm going to stir the pot. Open it up for all cats, not just F18s. We can't afford to exclude anyone.


There is intelligent life on this planet after all...

IMPO all regattas should be open to all that come and put boat n the water.... Maybe scale back on the prizes but all the same...

We had one local event that was "Hobie Only" up until a year or so back... Now that regatta is listed as being *tentative* for 2014, and they didn't have it in 2013... Time to stick a fork in this one as it is done.





There is a reasonable line somewhere and I think the Hobie midwinter event is a reasonable classified class event...consider what you're asking; should the F18 America's Championship be open to every boat? (no). At some point, it makes sense to have a class focused event.


Two different things, local regatta vs. National Event... Many local regattas are losing money and add in all the other BS involved with the whinners etc... I don't blame some people for throwing their hands in the air and walking away just to let the event die. We need stop being a class snobs and let others come have some fun, learn something, and maybe be the future F-18 sailor that buys your used boat...

If they are willing to host a "race what you bring class" that keeps the cost down and gets exposure why would this be a problem?





Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 05:25 PM

And that totally makes sense. I don't know anyone that would disagree with a 'race what you bring class' as far as keeping costs down and getting exposure. The problem The HCA has, is that we're not allowed to do it at our Association sponsored events. The point I would try to hammer home is this: While we can't do everything we would like or what you would like us to do, we DO have some talented people in our group that will work tirelessly to make events happen and work out and all we would ask is that we get an OD start.
Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


Brilliant.. These guys know what they are doing..

Registration is one of those activities in life that people go nuts over... both sides of the equation... the club and the sailors. (See Registration chaos at last minute for ACA or any other time in rlife to register for something)

Organizers are reluctant to require the commitment, deadlines, penalties, late fees, no dinner for you etc.. .... Sailors hold back ....because.. (something better will come along… or... ITS a MISTAKE!!! However...

REGISTRATION makes that future happen... the organizers are pumped up when a big fleet is REALLY committed and REGISTERED in coming racing... They want to do a great job.. When a sailor has thrown their hat in the ring... they have signed up.. and Paid with their check or credit card... Life then happens to make their attendance happen in reality. That is just the way it works! Wickfords pre registration policy has integrity.

It is half assed to have a sign up sheet on the web without requiring the financial commitment. (Yes.. its better then nothing… but you need both sides of the equation.) Spring Fever does not require pre payment... and that delivers a certain message.... Sorry, It is just the way humans work.... The promise of swag so long as you sign up... is NOT the same as REGISTRATION with integrity

The constant communication between the OA/YC and the fleet captains... and the fleet captains with the sailors is key...
Again... in a perfect world... you may not need this constant communication... but.. people are people. Spring Fever does things their way and it can bite you in the butt.


We've been talking about that some among a few folks and I'm considering setting up an event registration service through the EMSA website for our official regattas. The debate is to request payment with registration or not. I poked around with Mr. Ernie about it for Spring Fever and he was not very receptive (I didn't have a chance to dig much deeper but he has a lot of family health issues in front of him at the time being).

I remember that we used to require pre-registration at our events (even if it was a soft requirement) and I had to mail a stupid check and put a stamp on it. I eventually quit doing that and was willing to pay the extra $5 or whatever to avoid the hassle (I realize this is selfish, but I have both a day job and a rather active home business). The web can make it easy and, shoot, if we centralize it in our region, I could just go pre-register for all the events I know I'm going to attend in one sitting.

I suppose the question I have is does anyone think that the requirement for money up front will act as a deterrent to anyone? I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a newbie sailor. Personally, I don't think it would have an effect (we're also weighing options to not charge registration fees to relatively new sailors).
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Ventucky Red

If they are willing to host a "race what you bring class" that keeps the cost down and gets exposure why would this be a problem?



Because it's not something everyone is into. I sail an F18 because of the numbers and the level of racing it offers not because of the platform, I've never been married to a platform I go where I think the best competition is and I paid a bunch money just to be part of the game. If the only regatta to attend is a DPN only, I'll be looking for fleet that can get the numbers and give me the competition and kind of racing I'm looking for. Monohull or multihull I couldn't care less. So again, one size does not fit all and the current schedule has something for everyone and I don't want to see that change, it is just over saturated.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 05:50 PM

The voice of reason. Thanks Dave.
If there is a focus group, task force, heads of the 5 families, lynch mob....whatever.....we'd like to be part of it. MVD is our guy if you do, he's pretty insightful and actually spends more time doing than talking about it.
Posted By: bacho

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by xanderwess
And that totally makes sense. I don't know anyone that would disagree with a 'race what you bring class' as far as keeping costs down and getting exposure. The problem The HCA has, is that we're not allowed to do it at our Association sponsored events. The point I would try to hammer home is this: While we can't do everything we would like or what you would like us to do, we DO have some talented people in our group that will work tirelessly to make events happen and work out and all we would ask is that we get an OD start.



Is that something the HCA has considered revising? Right now it seems to not make sense for events to invite HCA group, if the HCA group can't or won't return the favor.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 06:10 PM

Quote
If the only regatta to attend is a DPN only, I'll be looking for fleet that can get the numbers and give me the competition and kind of racing I'm looking for. Monohull or multihull I couldn't care less. So again, one size does not fit all and the current schedule has something for everyone and I don't want to see that change, it is just over saturated.


Dave and I agree. You need a mix of events and we are over scheduled.

So just because Dave and I play so well in the same sandbox. (grin) I suggest this paradigm... for the moment focus on the mid winter events that want to be national regattas... and their goal is to attract sailors outside of their region.

You have the usual events that are one design.... essentially warm ups for the NA's What will get determined is the pecking order in the class which probably doesn't change much and MEANS NOTHING come Monday morning.

I suggest that what is missing from the schedule is an event that puts all of the spinnaker classes into one race.... So 15 to 20 F18's, PLUS 10 to 15 (F16s two up) Plus 5 to 10 near dead Nacra 20's..(it would be their one and only national event. PLUS the one-off's... Marstrom 20s, the CFR 20, the Nacra Carbon 20s.... PLUS the dead boat society of Tornados, Nacra 6.0s with NE chutes ARC's (Supercats) For these guys... it will be their ONLY chance to race against their old friends and in a big fleet.

What gets determined is a NEW pecking order which MEANS NOTHING..... on Monday morning.

This event is not on the schedule... and the core group of F18's and F16 Racers...is KEY because these guys and the format draws the other boats out to the event because they are racing the current hard core sailors... I suggest that the participation is GREATER with this model.

Yup... you have heard it from me before... I am sticking with the model.... It works in the EU and Australia. My philosophy... Variety is the spice of life! And... I have been a band of one with this tune... So... YMMV..... I can guess Dave's reply!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 06:17 PM

We get funding from Hobie Cat Company, and in return for their monetary support, we have a few rules to follow. The thought being that if HCC has money in the event, do they really want more C2 or Acats there then their own boats? So no, revision is really not an option for us at HCA sponsored events, but the benefit for the OD start for the H16 is that we are likely to come in force to a quality event. Also, as I mentioned, we have a lot of talented people that never shy away from offering up help, equipment, people, boats etc........
And we HAVE revised our strict policy to some degree, by offering F-18 starts at some of our events, since Hobie makes an F-18 it only makes sense. But alas.....we're back to the original question: Why don't the F-18 guys want to come to OSYC to sail in our Mid Winters?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 07:38 PM

So I understand there should be two different thought trains:
- build multihull events in general (regardless of platform)
- build your particular fleet's attendence

You're right Ding, OD /Box is more fun in some ways. There are others that don't have the time/money commitment to jump platforms to do that.

It makes a world of sense to seek OD events as a racer.
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 08:05 PM

Chris,
It was my understanding that the F18s were being hosted by Ocean Springs and MWE were hosting the Hobies and at that venue, and that was they way they got around the Hobie Rule.

Thus, OSYC was able to cancel and not affect the HCA regatta.

Hmmm. Maybe we could get OSYC to host a Wave Regatta during MWE. In other words, that may be the gimmick to get around the Hobie edict
Rick
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red

If they are willing to host a "race what you bring class" that keeps the cost down and gets exposure why would this be a problem?



Because it's not something everyone is into. I sail an F18 because of the numbers and the level of racing it offers not because of the platform, I've never been married to a platform I go where I think the best competition is and I paid a bunch money just to be part of the game. If the only regatta to attend is a DPN only, I'll be looking for fleet that can get the numbers and give me the competition and kind of racing I'm looking for. Monohull or multihull I couldn't care less. So again, one size does not fit all and the current schedule has something for everyone and I don't want to see that change, it is just over saturated.


Dave, don't take this wrong, but all I read in your post is Me, Me, Me, and Me...... You being pretty myopic and I can understand this being what you have probably spent to have some serious skin in the game... Me...my goal is a little more altruistic, I am looking at this as a way to get more people introduced to cat sailing and out on the water...

So your saying the there could not be two classes, two starts at a regatta and segregate the F-18 class and the "other class" or run them at the same time and do separate scoring...










Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by xanderwess
We get funding from Hobie Cat Company, and in return for their monetary support, we have a few rules to follow. The thought being that if HCC has money in the event, do they really want more C2 or Acats there then their own boats? So no, revision is really not an option for us at HCA sponsored events, but the benefit for the OD start for the H16 is that we are likely to come in force to a quality event. Also, as I mentioned, we have a lot of talented people that never shy away from offering up help, equipment, people, boats etc........
And we HAVE revised our strict policy to some degree, by offering F-18 starts at some of our events, since Hobie makes an F-18 it only makes sense. But alas.....we're back to the original question: Why don't the F-18 guys want to come to OSYC to sail in our Mid Winters?


How many more entrants would you have to get to offset what your getting from Hobie.....? Has anyone run the numbers...?

What are you going to do when the day comes when Hobie stops the Regatta Welfare Program? By then... to late, the "other sailors" have committed to other things..

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
but all I read in your post is Me, Me, Me, and Me......


Holy cow i laughed so hard at that...
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
but all I read in your post is Me, Me, Me, and Me......


Holy cow i laughed so hard at that...


Every once in a while I get some "wood on the ball." grin

Posted By: bacho

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
So I understand there should be two different thought trains:
- build multihull events in general (regardless of platform)
- build your particular fleet's attendence

You're right Ding, OD /Box is more fun in some ways. There are others that don't have the time/money commitment to jump platforms to do that.

It makes a world of sense to seek OD events as a racer.


I don't think anyone here would disagree that OD the events are better. But ISO don't think anyone is saying that all the boats have to race handicap. If you've got a fleet then's run it that way. I don't exactly see why having a separate open fleet is such a bother to some.
Posted By: mini

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
So I understand there should be two different thought trains:
- build multihull events in general (regardless of platform)
- build your particular fleet's attendence

You're right Ding, OD /Box is more fun in some ways. There are others that don't have the time/money commitment to jump platforms to do that.

It makes a world of sense to seek OD events as a racer.


You look at the history of attendance at some of the bigger races like Spring Fever or Tradewinds published in some of the other threads and you see an increase in some of the specific fleets. There used to be big numbers though in the open fleets and these have almost entirely gone away, so the overall attendance is way down.

I will not argue the advantages of sailing 1 design. However with current attendance and the sheer number of designs available, having more than 1-2 events a year with a large fleet of 1 design is not really feasible. Traveling more than the distance to my local lake to race just a couple of boats is not very appealing so no wonder there is not much attendance at races. Nobody really wants to race a wave against a carbon 20, but the bigger attended fleets, F18, A class and F16 all rate extremely close. A start with 20+ boats, now is something that would be more worthy of some travel.
Segregation of the classes is not the cause of poor attendance, but I do not see it helping either.

From a training point it is a huge problem with US sailors trying to compete internationally also as we almost never get a big fleet start. If you can’t practice this, getting off a line in a 70 boat fleet at World Cup event is going to be problematic and pulling a miracle from the back of the fleet just can’t be relied upon if you expect to compete for a podium place.
Posted By: pgp

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 10:11 PM

What is the average age of sailors now versus ten years ago?

Time passes.
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
What is the average age of sailors now versus ten years ago?

Time passes.


Roger that!

And the price to play isn't cheap either...... Seemed when I was in my 20s shelling out $1800 for a boat a trailer that was competitive was doable... a stretch, but doable! Using an inflation calculator, that cost is now $4.1K about a 125% increase...

Now.. shelling $20K to be within a stones through of the finish line...???



Posted By: pgp

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 11:15 PM

I think you may be on to something. A lot of people who can afford modern, competitive boats, won't pay the price.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: I don't get it. - 04/01/14 11:30 PM

How many more entrants would you have to get to offset what your getting from Hobie.....? Has anyone run the numbers...?

What are you going to do when the day comes when Hobie stops the Regatta Welfare Program? By then... to late, the "other sailors" have committed to other things..

Hobie Welfare program? I think its part of the marketing expense and keeps us where we are. I feel like I am being sucked into an internet argument about stuff I can't change.
The numbers are such that our Association has enough money to sponsor youth sailors to travel globally, so we can co-fund 6ish major event annually and pretty much help out where we need to help out.
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: I don't get it. - 04/02/14 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by xanderwess
How many more entrants would you have to get to offset what your getting from Hobie.....? Has anyone run the numbers...?

What are you going to do when the day comes when Hobie stops the Regatta Welfare Program? By then... to late, the "other sailors" have committed to other things..

Hobie Welfare program? I think its part of the marketing expense and keeps us where we are. I feel like I am being sucked into an internet argument about stuff I can't change.
The numbers are such that our Association has enough money to sponsor youth sailors to travel globally, so we can co-fund 6ish major event annually and pretty much help out where we need to help out.


I am not trying to suck you into an argument.. just curious to know.. And to note.. I know a thing or two about branding and marketing..it is what I do.

I know you can't change what you can't change, you make a deal with the devil, he is going to always want to get paid...
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: I don't get it. - 04/02/14 12:39 AM

The hobie policy is a DEAD ISSUE... When everyone agrees that you have too many regattas on the schedule... You can't complain that the few sailors you have in your fleet who want to go to another regatta that has a flying H but can't.

Everybody needs to just give it up... there is no juice in fighting this ancient history again.

If you want to discuss a SPECIFIC CLUB that has to make a sophies choice between inviting a fleet of A cat sailors or F16 sailors who are absolutely committed to racing and the Hobie policy... I would listen.. Otherwise... there is no issue.... F18's are able to race now and the issue is the same as it ever was ... OVER SCHEDULED...

God knows that when the hobie policy was an issue and caused problems a long time ago.. ... I was a loud critic. (no surprise)...

The fact of life was that the current Hobie policy has had minimal to NO impact on events around the country...I've looked into it and said so at the time. We were overscheduled even then... and so... the same number of racers just competed in events run by two OA's... You could not find sailors who could not go racing some where else.

If you want to bitch about it... well consider it is the grumpy old man disease that is bubbling up.... Let it go.

The issue as it every was... Over scheduled and Finding or developing new racers. Hell in my area, Clubs running Hobie events have asked if A class would be interested in racing and the answer was... I will check but we are already scheduled to the max.... It's a DEAD ISSUE!
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: I don't get it. - 04/02/14 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

The issue as it every was... Over scheduled and Finding or developing new racers. Hell in my area, Clubs running Hobie events have asked if A class would be interested in racing and the answer was... I will check but we are already scheduled to the max.... It's a DEAD ISSUE!


Yeuppp that too.




Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I don't get it. - 04/02/14 02:27 PM

I am actually kind of excited about that earlier post that alluded to people wanting to put together a new regatta.

Given the time/effort involved in organizing pretty much anything, I wonder what their thought process is in wanting another regatta.

Do they feel they are underserved in their particular geography?

Is their fleet/club not invited to some other regattas nearby?

Do they think it's a money-maker for a particular group?

Is there a new location that would make an excellent venue they wish to exploit?

Do they feel there is something "wrong" with the other regatta offerings that a new event would "fix"?

Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 04/02/14 02:43 PM

More outside-the-box thinking here, brace yourself and try to digest before shooting it down...

Would it be helpful to have a national umbrella organization (cough, cough... USSA MRC) serve as the "5 families"?

What I see is a national situation extremely similar to what we had/have in the northeast. There was a time when all the classes worked well together (in terms of scheduling and hosting regattas), under the umbrella of HCA Division 12 and the Hobie fleet structure.

Yes, that caused issues (non-Hobie sailors using the Hobie name, etc.), and yes, I was a staunch supporter of the edict about 5 years before it happened. However, by the time of the edict, it was too late to help us, and had the opposite effect: it effectively killed all organized racing for Hobie sailors in New England.

I am NOT trying to stir this up. People acted with nothing but the best intentions, and there are large parts of the country where this is perfectly fine. And, I totally agree that HCC and HCA (and any other class and manufacturer) have every right to spend their money and energy as they deem appropriate.

But, I think we can (and should) have an umbrella organization that can allow us to work together more formally, and complementing the efforts of the classes without crossing boundaries of how the classes do their jobs.

This would also give a new purpose for Area reps, now that the qualifiers are gone. They would serve as the regional leaders to set up meetings, coordinate communications, etc. Maybe we could even come up with US Sailing area multihull championships/festivals (a title and concept to enhance existing regattas, not necessarily new events).

EDIT: Yes, this could be done as NAMSA. But, there are a lot of good reasons to do this under US Sailing. We have a recognized body, with an approved regulation, with the purpose of providing a "forum" for sailors and manufacturers to work together. It's already there, waiting for us to transform how we organize ourselves...

It's April 2 (this is not a prank)...

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: I don't get it. - 04/02/14 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I am actually kind of excited about that earlier post that alluded to people wanting to put together a new regatta.

Given the time/effort involved in organizing pretty much anything, I wonder what their thought process is in wanting another regatta.

Do they feel they are underserved in their particular geography?

Is their fleet/club not invited to some other regattas nearby?

Do they think it's a money-maker for a particular group?

Is there a new location that would make an excellent venue they wish to exploit?

Do they feel there is something "wrong" with the other regatta offerings that a new event would "fix"?



Skirting your question a little, this is the most successful sailing club I'm aware of, http://www.cmcs-sail.org/

They are a year round social organization. They never miss acknowledging a birth, death, graduation, marriage, new boat purchase, old boat sale, what have you.

Because they are in one local their organization is centered on a monthly meeting, lots of food and easy fun. They involve everyone in something (I was historian for a short time).

You could do the same thing involving this site or other social media and keep people involved year round, and I'm afraid that's what it will take.

I'd make everyone welcome, kayakers, bird watchers, anyone who likes being around boats and water.

Just quarantine politics to one forum (I like the name Cauldron).
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: I don't get it. - 04/02/14 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
What is the average age of sailors now versus ten years ago?

Time passes.


Average age of the NE F18 fleet is around 30... I'd venture to guess it's around 40 for the US F18 class?

I think that's an exception compared to the A Cat, Hobie 16, etc.?
Posted By: Tom Korz

Why does the Madcatter thrive..with crew posts like this - 04/02/14 05:56 PM

Two cute sailor girls looking for a ride in Madcatter

Hi,

I am so excited that the upcoming best party of the year - Madcatter - is just around the corner!!!

Unfortunately my skipper John Bauldry is sailing with another crew this year.

My girlfriend xxxx xxxx - also a good sailor from Toronto - and I would very much like to participate in the event.

If there are any F18 sailors needing crews, we would be happy to jump in! We are about 5'6 tall, and weigh 140 (Beata) and 120 (Andria).

Your kind response would be greatly appreciated and I look forward to seeing all of you wonderful people in Syracuse this year!

Regards,


PS: If you need crew, full details on our Fleet Forum @ www.Fleet204.com
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: I don't get it. - 04/02/14 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
I don't think anyone here would disagree that OD the events are better.

I would!

If I drive 5 hours to attend a 40 boat regatta, I would much rather it is split into two 20-boat handicap fleets than into eight 5-boat one-design classes. Racing against 19 similar boats is much more fun (and a better test of skill) than racing against just 4 that are the same. That is especially true if 15 of the 19 handicap boats are sailed by people I only meet once or twice a year, and the 4 one-design boats are from my local fleet that puts 8-12 boats on the line twice a month.

I liked Spring Fever best when it was scored by the portsmouth yardstick and had huge starts. I've enjoyed Catfest, Tommy Whitesides, and the Outback Cup (et. al.) specifically because I was able to race with a different group of sailors. I can't get that at an HCA sanctioned regatta because they won't let me compete with the H-16s, H-17s, or H-18s.

The only regattas I attend that I feel need to be one-design are the class championships (such as the Isotope Nationals).

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: I don't get it. - 04/02/14 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Ventucky Red


Dave, don't take this wrong, but all I read in your post is Me, Me, Me, and Me...... You being pretty myopic and I can understand this being what you have probably spent to have some serious skin in the game... Me...my goal is a little more altruistic, I am looking at this as a way to get more people introduced to cat sailing and out on the water...

So your saying the there could not be two classes, two starts at a regatta and segregate the F-18 class and the "other class" or run them at the same time and do separate scoring...



Dude, you don't know me you don't know what I've done and the time I've donated so save me the lecture. When you donate the same amount of personal time to grow the sport and spend the scratch to go to regattas outside your zip code then you can look down on me and preach all you like, until then save it.

Oh and let me know when you park your boat for a year to pull strings for a new skipper knowing you're going to be replaced when she has outgrown you.

And your last point about seperate starts WE DO THAT ALREADY!!! We just don't do it all the time... why you ask, because it's it's freaking better to have your own start!

I tell you what you travel to 4 regatta's 2 hours or more out of your zip code and I'll attend 4 Mark S. like regattas... I'm already way ahead on this so chop chop.
Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 04/02/14 06:57 PM

somebody awoke up Grumpy McGrumpypants! Now you've done it!
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: I don't get it. - 04/02/14 07:26 PM

A lot of folks don't seem to take advantage of the discounted Display Ads in the magazine for non-commercial events -- $75 for a full page in the hard cover magazine.

As mentioned the schedule is publish online Free (Google Analytics info for March:
Visits: 24,216
Unique Visitors: 10,178
Pages Viewed: 100,071)

And then goes into the magazine (2000 mailing list)

Not many seem to take advantage of that.

Rick

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: I don't get it. - 04/02/14 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram

I tell you what you travel to 4 regatta's 2 hours or more out of your zip code ...


Man, 2 whole hours, you are quite the traveler. Does that include old man Pee breaks or do you just save up the Depends and throw them away after your long journey. smirk
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: I don't get it. - 04/02/14 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red


Dave, don't take this wrong, but all I read in your post is Me, Me, Me, and Me...... You being pretty myopic and I can understand this being what you have probably spent to have some serious skin in the game... Me...my goal is a little more altruistic, I am looking at this as a way to get more people introduced to cat sailing and out on the water...

So your saying the there could not be two classes, two starts at a regatta and segregate the F-18 class and the "other class" or run them at the same time and do separate scoring...



Dude, you don't know me you don't know what I've done and the time I've donated so save me the lecture. When you donate the same amount of personal time to grow the sport and spend the scratch to go to regattas outside your zip code then you can look down on me and preach all you like, until then save it.

Oh and let me know when you park your boat for a year to pull strings for a new skipper knowing you're going to be replaced when she has outgrown you.

And your last point about seperate starts WE DO THAT ALREADY!!! We just don't do it all the time... why you ask, because it's it's freaking better to have your own start!

I tell you what you travel to 4 regatta's 2 hours or more out of your zip code and I'll attend 4 Mark S. like regattas... I'm already way ahead on this so chop chop.


Likewise you don't know me...

I have been in this game since 1978 when I crewed for some guy on his Hobie 16 at Sandy Point Park in Maryland... while I was there sailing my Force 5. From that point on, I parked my Force 5 and never looked back. I still remember this August day like yesterday.

I too have countless hours volunteering at many an event just to deal with the complaints that the race course was not to my liking, running a shoddy mismanaged race, trophies weren’t big enough, the t-shirts were too skimpy (never got paid for those..), or because we served chicken in place of steak, and broke up a few fights between some drunken sailors just to catch a left hook for my efforts. I have even fielded the 4:00 AM phone call from an entrant asking for help because they are broken down on the freeway...

Also, I have managed to put over 200K miles on two different Volkswagen vans with in twelve years with a good chunk of these miles traveling to many a regatta up and down the west coast… Even attended a few on the east coast held by the Sandy Hook Catamaran Club, the St. Mary’s Regatta, and helping out at the Cape May Hobie regatta. Oh! Forgot…. did one in the Great Lakes just west of Grand Rapids… but I prefer to forget that one…

I could go on Dave proving that mine is bigger than yours….. But that is not the intent.

The point I was making is our sport is getting smaller and smaller every year… We, yes WE need to start fostering in new sailors. In reading your post what I saw was one of the mindsets that is killing it…”we don’t want them on our course.” If this was not your intent I apologize.

Oh! I don't need my own start... I'll go toe to toe with you anyday!!! cool

John Schwartz
Ventura, CA




Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 04/03/14 12:04 AM

OK...good. Now that you guys know each other and are ready for a delightful chat over tea and crumpets, can we get back to the topic?
Posted By: bacho

Re: I don't get it. - 04/03/14 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by bacho
I don't think anyone here would disagree that OD the events are better.

I would!

If I drive 5 hours to attend a 40 boat regatta, I would much rather it is split into two 20-boat handicap fleets than into eight 5-boat one-design classes. Racing against 19 similar boats is much more fun (and a better test of skill) than racing against just 4 that are the same. That is especially true if 15 of the 19 handicap boats are sailed by people I only meet once or twice a year, and the 4 one-design boats are from my local fleet that puts 8-12 boats on the line twice a month.

I liked Spring Fever best when it was scored by the portsmouth yardstick and had huge starts. I've enjoyed Catfest, Tommy Whitesides, and the Outback Cup (et. al.) specifically because I was able to race with a different group of sailors. I can't get that at an HCA sanctioned regatta because they won't let me compete with the H-16s, H-17s, or H-18s.

The only regattas I attend that I feel need to be one-design are the class championships (such as the Isotope Nationals).

Regards,
Eric


Of course you would, those damn isotopes make everyone look silly on a light air lake day.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: I don't get it. - 04/03/14 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by bacho
Of course you would, those damn isotopes make everyone look silly on a light air lake day.

How much wind do you need?
Posted By: coralreefer

Re: I don't get it. - 04/03/14 11:59 AM

As a new person, I find comments like “me, me, me” to be unproductive for the future of the sport. In Dave’s defense, when I reached out to him about getting HCA points status for Kelley Park River Regatta he was more than happy to help out.

His assistance we very much needed, I’m trying to get a Hobie Division back off the ground, and he is trying to get visibility, attendance, and recognition for a Regatta he works hard to support.

We are working together for mutual survival. This is critical for both of us.

I did not take his comments as “me, me, me”. We all have our reasons for being in the sport, and we need to work together to understand what those reasons are and how the all come together the best.

I commented on this post in the beginning because it was surprisingly a free of attacks on one another. And I found it to be productive to all our issues. Its not often that there is a good discussion amongst Hobie HCA representatives and other non Hobie sailors. This post also appears to be the first post where there is constructive attempt to discuss the future, and not dwell on the Hobie edict past.

I’ve been reading Catsailor forums ever since I got into sailing a couple of years ago, but have been hesitant to contribute due to all the negativity and attacks. Please understand, that has been hurting the sport also, and keeps others on the side. I have sometimes thought that Catsailor is going to die a slow death, as all the grumpy old men die off.

It does not have to be that way.

I still believe our to largest issues are:

--Not enough sailors, so what can we do to grow the sport
--Too many different boats, which dilutes the fleets especially with limited sailors to sail them.

Fred
HCA Division 8 Chair
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 04/03/14 12:11 PM

Well said Fred. I share your observations.

OK, now that we've all had our fill of crumpets, and about 24 hours to reflect, what are your thoughts on this?

Originally Posted by brucat
More outside-the-box thinking here, brace yourself and try to digest before shooting it down...

Would it be helpful to have a national umbrella organization (cough, cough... USSA MRC) serve as the "5 families"?

What I see is a national situation extremely similar to what we had/have in the northeast. There was a time when all the classes worked well together (in terms of scheduling and hosting regattas), under the umbrella of HCA Division 12 and the Hobie fleet structure.

Yes, that caused issues (non-Hobie sailors using the Hobie name, etc.), and yes, I was a staunch supporter of the edict about 5 years before it happened. However, by the time of the edict, it was too late to help us, and had the opposite effect: it effectively killed all organized racing for Hobie sailors in New England.

I am NOT trying to stir this up. People acted with nothing but the best intentions, and there are large parts of the country where this is perfectly fine. And, I totally agree that HCC and HCA (and any other class and manufacturer) have every right to spend their money and energy as they deem appropriate.

But, I think we can (and should) have an umbrella organization that can allow us to work together more formally, and complementing the efforts of the classes without crossing boundaries of how the classes do their jobs.

This would also give a new purpose for Area reps, now that the qualifiers are gone. They would serve as the regional leaders to set up meetings, coordinate communications, etc. Maybe we could even come up with US Sailing area multihull championships/festivals (a title and concept to enhance existing regattas, not necessarily new events).

EDIT: Yes, this could be done as NAMSA. But, there are a lot of good reasons to do this under US Sailing. We have a recognized body, with an approved regulation, with the purpose of providing a "forum" for sailors and manufacturers to work together. It's already there, waiting for us to transform how we organize ourselves...

It's April 2 (this is not a prank)...

Mike


We will be having our spring MRC teleconference later this month, always looking for volunteers...

Mike
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 12:25 PM

Hearing no opposition, I'll add this to the agenda for the spring meeting.

Mike
Posted By: bacho

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 12:31 PM

I don't think it's required.
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 01:18 PM

Could you be less specific???

I think we all agreed that more cooperation and communication between classes, clubs and events can only help us. I am simply proposing a way to facilitate this.

No one would be "required" to participate, but if it works, everyone will want to. This model was extremely effective in New England (formerly DBA HCA Division 12).

Mike
Posted By: bacho

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 01:41 PM

I think we regionally organized pretty well. It doesn't seem to me that a great number of sailors in our region will leave our region to go to regattas in areas that might not communicate fully with our region. We already have several calendars with most of the nations regattas on it. So it seems to me were adding a step to communicate at a national level, I see it as another step in the process with limited benefits. But that's just my opinion.
Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
...

But, I think we can (and should) have an umbrella organization that can allow us to work together more formally, and complementing the efforts of the classes without crossing boundaries of how the classes do their jobs.

This would also give a new purpose for Area reps, now that the qualifiers are gone. They would serve as the regional leaders to set up meetings, coordinate communications, etc. Maybe we could even come up with US Sailing area multihull championships/festivals (a title and concept to enhance existing regattas, not necessarily new events).

EDIT: Yes, this could be done as NAMSA. But, there are a lot of good reasons to do this under US Sailing. We have a recognized body, with an approved regulation, with the purpose of providing a "forum" for sailors and manufacturers to work together. It's already there, waiting for us to transform how we organize ourselves...

It's April 2 (this is not a prank)...

Mike


If, and this is a big one, if you can get the right people from the classes together with a unified objective of "what can we do to grow the sport" I think something like this could have some benefit. The schedule is one thing but it's not everything. I'm slow to comment on this post because I'm not 100% sure whether my own cynicism is derived from past experience or something more grounded in reality. However, I feel like the classes aren't at the point yet where they are genuinely interested in the betterment of our sport over their own unique interests. It's going to take a bit more panic to get to that point.

For example, a growing group of A-cat sailors in our area are separating further from our events and supporting them less and less...if it weren't for one sailor in that group tugging (shoving) them in that direction we (EMSA) would probably never see them again. They like to race on their own, are going to lengths to attend exclusive regattas at the expense of our area events, and are scheduling their own exclusive regattas. I'm not going to sit here and say they're doing anything "wrong" but they're not helping our local sport and I think they're doing themselves a disservice by being less visible (for example, we had a newbie come to our last event interested in learning more about a-cats but there was only one of them in attendance). In other words, if you forget where you came from, there will be nobody new to replace you. We repeat this again and again.

In this regard, we're up against human nature and I'm torn between finding fault with that group's exclusivity or admiring their ability to do what they want to do. Dave McGrumpypants showed it a little earlier in this thread and I know exactly where he's coming from. I don't have as much time to sail as I wish I did and when do, I want to do it as often as possible in the manner that I enjoy the most (which is on an F18 with my best friend in big breeze, flat water, and equal competition all around me). Meanwhile, also like the Dave I know, I feel a need to help on the community side of things and I find a personal balance between helping our sport and satisfying my own wishes.

I guess my point is, the USMHC is the place for all of the classes to join and start working together. Nobody else has anything close on a national level to that forum. I think the point should be a joint task force to find ways to help grow our sport... maybe the schedule is a place to get started on this and it might lead to other more beneficial ideas. Cynical me isn't sure that the classes are ready to REALLY make any kind of sacrifice of their own desires toward this goal (or what those sacrifices might be) but I don't necessarily know that it's the case.
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 02:31 PM

Thanks Jake. I fully agree with your view, and you did a great job of articulating what I meant in an earlier post about working together not necessarily being "popular."

The biggest hurdle is probably going to be getting the balance right between this 5-families approach being a help or hindrance.

I can only go off of personal experience here, with the NE example that I gave. Did this solve all schedule conflicts? Absolutely not, but at least people made more informed, risk-based decisions when scheduling events on top of one another. Healthy organizations will respect the difficult choices that their constituents make, but it helps when they're all part of the process, or at least have the info (and rationale) well in advance.

EDIT: While this would be under the national umbrella organization, the intent is for the bulk of the effort to happen regionally. Where regions meet, there can (and should) be further discussion, but there is no intent here to add more national bureaucracy. Honestly, there is no intent to add bureaucracy at all, this is truly intended to help.

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 03:09 PM

so why do you think the regional A-cat fleet is distancing themselves from EMSA events? Do they have different needs than the rest of the multihulls attending?

From what little I know of the A-cat fleet, they use similar W/L courses, and while they don't have a spin, they are certainly similar in performance to some (but not all) other fleets. Their boat logistics (setup, trailer, etc) are similar, so the beach/launch areas would be similar as well

Having their own start seems logical, but I suspect that's still not enough to keep their interest in non-exclusive events?

Conversely, is the A-cat fleet using better venues than some of the established EMSA sites? Would they welcome non-A-catters to some of their regattas if there were RC/PRO assistance from those non-a-cat fleets?
Posted By: bacho

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
so why do you think the regional A-cat fleet is distancing themselves from EMSA events? Do they have different needs than the rest of the multihulls attending?

From what little I know of the A-cat fleet, they use similar W/L courses, and while they don't have a spin, they are certainly similar in performance to some (but not all) other fleets. Their boat logistics (setup, trailer, etc) are similar, so the beach/launch areas would be similar as well

Having their own start seems logical, but I suspect that's still not enough to keep their interest in non-exclusive events?

Conversely, is the A-cat fleet using better venues than some of the established EMSA sites? Would they welcome non-A-catters to some of their regattas if there were RC/PRO assistance from those non-a-cat fleets?



It should be pointed out that they have 6-7 boats on one trailer so they establish a fleet anywhere they go. That allows them to travel more easily on pooled resources. Because of that I'm sure they don't have much interest in racing anyone on handicap. So they will travel more to seek better A class racing
Posted By: Jake

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
so why do you think the regional A-cat fleet is distancing themselves from EMSA events? Do they have different needs than the rest of the multihulls attending?

From what little I know of the A-cat fleet, they use similar W/L courses, and while they don't have a spin, they are certainly similar in performance to some (but not all) other fleets. Their boat logistics (setup, trailer, etc) are similar, so the beach/launch areas would be similar as well

Having their own start seems logical, but I suspect that's still not enough to keep their interest in non-exclusive events?

Conversely, is the A-cat fleet using better venues than some of the established EMSA sites? Would they welcome non-A-catters to some of their regattas if there were RC/PRO assistance from those non-a-cat fleets?


I think it's pretty simple. They all live in close proximity to each other and are at the same club. Given a choice, they would rather focus on racing OD and not have other boats on the course. It's not about starts or facilities or anything like that.

The last couple of combined events we had, I heard some comments (although innocent) about our F18 approaching A-mark within their fleet and watching us put up our kite, create a wind shadow (even though it wasn't for long!), and be gone...so I guess it's me. smirk
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 03:35 PM

The issue is the amount of oxygen in the room for national regattas COUPLED with the needs of historic OA's that host events.

If you leave this schedule decision up to the OD classes... who can bring 30 boats to an event (A class and F18s and Hobie 16s) Each class is able to find a good OA to run their event(s). The second feature is the OD class May see value in moving the big events around the region or country. Final point, from the ONE design class's point of view NOTHING is gained by sharing the race course with another class. The A class probably looks at this as a negative to share the race course (Collisions always work out badly for an A class... it sucks to see the non A class boat survive .... Its human nature to believe that the other SOB just doesn't care enough then) From the One Design Class point of view... We Have no Problem here with the status quo.

From the one design Sailor point of view... They also don't have a problem... their class has right sized the national schedule for them. For example, the F18s seem to want to do ONE mid winter event (Jan or Feb)... They LIKE events that are strictly their class... Most of the sailors don't have strong opinions about sharing the race course tho... So... something like Tradewinds works out for them. Alternatively, they could decide that the class is better served racing at Key West to show off to the world press (yes its not practical)... Tradewinds would then be a second tier event for them. If they are traveling a distance.. they will pick their class one design regatta, The national sailors don't have a problem with the status quo.... the Regional sailors are disapointed that their 2nd tier event does not get big support.

The national sailors look at the second tier of events that are trying to pull them in (those in the pre season of March and April) as maybe... but probably not in their plans because of ... time and money limits.

So, the PROBLEM exists for the OAs like Spring Fever, Davis Island and Hobie MWE, they need turnout to run the event at their historic levels. ... Spring Fever thought they would have 75 boats... and were on track for less then 50 AND they don't exactly know why. A class got a turnout at Davis Island last week... Hobie MWE is running a Classic Hobie 16, 17 and 18 event. Spring Fever is gone.

I would look at the problem and say.. Winter events are Jan and Feb... In the keys... The One design class leaders can hash it out with the OA for what their class wants... The A class left Tradewinds and set up their own event because it worked better for them. If you want changes in tradewinds... speak with Rick.

March and April are usually primo sailing times in Florida and the South, GA and MISS but are pre season for most of the country. Events like Spring Fever, and the A class Davis Island and Hobie MWE are going to be on sailors second tier. They need 90% turnout from their regional racers to have a hope of being successful ... and then a few sailors who travel nationally. They have to get the expectations in line and right size the event.

The conversation that needs to be had is between Spring Fever, HWME (Hobie) and Davis Island (A class) OAs ... AND the Class OD leaders of Hobie 16s, F18s, A class... AND the class leaders of the local classes (F16s in GA). The dates matter here... Since Spring Fever is constrained to EASTER which moves... can the other OA's be flexible with dates and does that make a difference to how many sailors are available for the three OAs.. This is one conversation that needs to happen sooner rather then later and it is one phone meeting with the principles... (who have to want to solve the meta level problem.)

Of course... it seems to me that the US cat scene actually needs ONE big euro style regatta. Spin double handed.
Single handed. Classic sloop.... Classic big sloop. As Eric noted... he has no reason to travel in his small one design Isotope class... UNLESS he gets to race new people in other classes. The ONLY WAY this event is successful is for the major One design classes to support it.

Would it be interesting to have ONE US Regatta where 10 F18s, 10 Olympic 17s, 10 F16s, 10 Nacra 20s, 5 (CFR 20s, Marstrom 20s, Nacra carbon 20s, Flying phantoms,and the odd C class) who pre registered and showed up for a three day regatta of buoys and medium distance racing? 40 to 45 boats on the starting line?

Would the Hobie 16 leaders promote an event of 15 Hobie 16s, 10 Hobie 18s, 10 (Prindle 16s, 18s, Nacra 5.2s 5.0s Mystere 5.Os and 4.3s ) and 10 Isotopes. 45 boats on the line..

If I were king... I would set it up as the Olympic Support regatta so every boat kicked in a few bucks to support the Junior Olympic development team. All beach cat racers have a stake in supporting this effort.

It takes a meeting of the class presidents, regional fleet leaders and the OAs who could pull this off.
Has it ever been done... Yes... Multihull magazine ran the Newport Multihull cat fest years ago... Spring Fever did a little bit of it for two years.

Again... the one design class leaders have to decide that such an event is valuable to the sport and their sailors.

So... two steps..... Divide up the oxygen in the room between the OA's and the One Design Classes in the pre season.. (March and April)

Step two... Is their any value to a Single euro style regatta during this pre season period. I recognize... that while it may be pre season for the northern sailors... the southern sailors are in the begining of their seasons... so... they absolutely have to take the lead and give up something on their schedule to make it happen.

Final point... the distance races are attempting to restart... so.... you have to keep those OA's and sailors in mind as well. (hint.. invite them to the phone meet up)
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 04:06 PM

"it seems to me that the US cat scene actually needs ONE big euro style regatta. Spin double handed.
Single handed. Classic sloop.... Classic big sloop."

My opinion: - T-winds in the Keys seemed similar in that respect. I'd never seen a Shark sailing at other events I sailed.

Could the Islander handle that kind of attendance?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 04:14 PM

that was the Shark midwinters.. a one design shark event. They are just like the isotopes.....why travel... no Sharks in Miami (speaking lfiguratively of course)? They wanted a nice winter venue... so they went to Tradewinds.... they could probably go to a lot of other locations.

I would probably let Tradewinds be actual mid winters for classes that choose to label it as such....EG... Hobie has branding issues with sponsors... so while it may SERVE as an actual midwinter one design event... it can't be called such.

In my model of this event... the Sharks would be the fast boat in the Classic small boat fleet along with Prindle 18s and N 5.2s supercat 17s etc.... If a hobie 16 is in front of you... you loose.
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 04:24 PM

...you mean WHEN a Hobie 16 is in front, right? wink

Mike
Posted By: hobiephil

Re: I don't get it. - 04/04/14 11:01 PM

A Shark sailed (and took 2nd place corrected) in last year's Statue of Liberty Race (Sandy Hook Bay Catamaran Club, NJ).
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: I don't get it. - 04/05/14 03:04 AM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
that was the Shark midwinters.. a one design shark event. They are just like the isotopes.....why travel... no Sharks in Miami (speaking lfiguratively of course)? They wanted a nice winter venue... so they went to Tradewinds.... they could probably go to a lot of other locations.

I would probably let Tradewinds be actual mid winters for classes that choose to label it as such....EG... Hobie has branding issues with sponsors... so while it may SERVE as an actual midwinter one design event... it can't be called such.

In my model of this event... the Sharks would be the fast boat in the Classic small boat fleet along with Prindle 18s and N 5.2s supercat 17s etc.... If a hobie 16 is in front of you... you loose.


Sharks race at Tradewinds also, he wasn't seeing things.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: I don't get it. - 04/07/14 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
If, and this is a big one, if you can get the right people from the classes together with a unified objective of "what can we do to grow the sport" I think something like this could have some benefit. The schedule is one thing but it's not everything. I'm slow to comment on this post because I'm not 100% sure whether my own cynicism is derived from past experience or something more grounded in reality. However, I feel like the classes aren't at the point yet where they are genuinely interested in the betterment of our sport over their own unique interests.


Jake,

Very well said. If the players truly have the goal of growing the sport, then this effort might succeed. If they pursue their individual interests, however, it will not. I would like to hope for the first, but have seen too much of the second to believe it.

Here's a case in point. I regularly race with two clubs. At one, there has been a small fleet of Isotopes, along with one or two H-16's, one H-14, and occasionally one other cat. The Isotopes requested that the club race all the catamarans together in one "multihull handicap" class, just to give the other boats someone to race against. We've been doing that for 3 or 4 years now.

At the other club, the Isotope fleet is much bigger. We race one-design, but still ask the club to start the lone Prindle 18-2 with us so he has someone to sail with. He gets scored separately (and wins all his races). Now, the commodore of this club just sent out an email saying that the local Hobie fleet (formerly defunct) is trying to reorganize. They have perhaps 10 mixed H-16s and H-18s that want to race. The club is planning to create a "Hobie" fleet for them. They will race against each other on portsmouth handicap separate from the multihull handicap fleet. In other words, the Hobie 16s and 18s are willing to race each other on handicap, but not the Prindle. I think that's precisely the attitude that will kill any effort to grow catamaran racing on the whole. It's the "Hobie Edict" all over again.

There are good reasons to race one-design, and good reasons to race handicap. Each has it's place. They are different ways to play the game and I enjoy both. Proponents of each, however, need to recognize and support the other's wants. We can't afford to leave anybody out. Unless we are all prepared to attend an occasional event to help other classes, we have no right to expect support for our own.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: I don't get it. - 04/07/14 02:22 AM

Ah... Reciprocity... those were the good ol days!

Back Back Back in the day... Yacht Clubs were exclusive monolithic organizations... they did not extend racing privileges to other clubs... They were excellent capitalists (not going to give away racing privleges) .. All of the WASPs... in the club to the right... All of the working men in the club to the left... ETC. Yachting was a gentleman's sport and it reflected the times... Eventually, YRA's were born to foster the Reciprocity between Yacht Clubs. OMG... it was commutarian but it carried the day. Racing was open to members of the YRA member clubs. Still for "elite" Yacht Clubs... the most they would do was to open up the racing circuit... BUT only grant reciprocity privileges to their exclusive peer YCs. (We can meet on the battlefield but not in our clubhouse). Evolution changed the looks of the American Yacht Club and racing scene.

It would seem that we have a bit more RE evolution needed in the catamaran world. But as with all evolutionary process... the risk is EXTINCTION.

What gets overlooked in the theory of evolution... is the need to BREED to pass on the good genes... Take a look around.... Most of the fleets breeding days are OVER... So... you can continue trying to EAT the other classes in a survival of the fit competition... however... you are a day late and a dollar short in the evolution game.... the certain end result is extinction.
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: I don't get it. - 04/07/14 11:26 AM

Rick-

I've sent several emails to you over the last couple months with our schedule - perhaps they're going to your junk folder. Our 2014 CRAM schedule is below. When you get a chance, it would be great if these could be updated on your event page.

May 17-18 CSYC1 http://cramsailing.com/regattas/schedule/56-csyc-1
Jun 7-8 Caseville1 http://cramsailing.com/regattas/schedule/55-caseville-1
Jun 21-22 North Cape http://cramsailing.com/regattas/schedule/35-ncyc-race
Jul 11-13 Caseville2 http://cramsailing.com/regattas/schedule/36-caseville-2
Jul 26-27 Muskegon http://cramsailing.com/regattas/schedule/37-muskegon
Aug 16-17 Charlevoix http://cramsailing.com/regattas/schedule/34-charlevoix
Sep 6-7 Tawas http://cramsailing.com/regattas/schedule/38-tawas
Sep 20-21 Higgins http://cramsailing.com/regattas/schedule/39-higgins
Oct 4-5 CSYC2 http://cramsailing.com/regattas/schedule/33-csyc-2

BTW, as much as we'd love to host North American's at the end of July, it ain't happening this year. I think you'll need to remove that one.

For those that are interested, the USF18 Northern Area Championship will be held at Caseville, MI July 11-13. 10 F18s are currently registered for the event - we're targeting around 20 this year. It's a great venue - consider adding it to your schedule smile
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: I don't get it. - 04/07/14 01:51 PM

I guess the other possible benefit of a centralized regatta information source would be the results could be compiled (say, for DPN adjustments) more easily?
Posted By: brucat

Re: I don't get it. - 04/07/14 02:58 PM

That is certainly a possibility, as are sharing best practices for regatta promotion, having training sessions for sailors, RC and jury, etc. There is no shortage of ways to improve.

Realistically, this will all be done by us (as in, the volunteers already in place regionally), the only real difference would be a new view outward to other groups in the region/country.

We want to help, not hinder, what is already being done. This will be a complete waste of effort if the classes and clubs don't see any value.

Mike
Posted By: RickWhite

Re: I don't get it. - 04/08/14 10:54 AM

Had not seen anything from CRAM. Will be on the site this afternoon. Thanks,
Rick
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