footstraps can hurt!

this is from the Asia pacific champs in new zeasland, a very painful experience I'm sure!

Je.., That is really a horrorscenario came true.

But do you have onely one footstrap or two (per hull)??

For that reason I decided to implement on my cat only 1 footstrap for the back-foot. Which also has a spacious fit; as for helping a possible emergency exit.
I picked a footstrap from a windsurfboard for that.

Anyway lots of success with your broken foot. I hope you will be sailing again in half a year.

P.S. Do you consider to use a higher trapezehook position in future?

ouch!

My foot straps already scare me, that doesn't help.

make sure they're loose enough that you can get your foot out of sideways but tight enough that you can't get your upper ankle shoved into it. You shouldn't look at a footstrap as a way to make your foot captive (easy to keep your foot in but hard to get it out)...look at it as something that you still have to use your foot muscles to hang into. If you ever feel the need to either reach down to open it up for your foot or if you have to wiggle your foot into it, you're doing it wrong.

One of our I20s had two footstraps on the rear of the boat - I've never felt so vulnerable than the 15 seconds I tried to sail with both feet in those straps...that was a train wreck in wait.

Also of note, the Magic Marine "light" footstraps are good in that they are more rigid than some of the others and can be set with a very large opening. We replaced the ones on our Infusion for this reason as they were an older style that wouldn't open up and stay open. I used to just barely put the ball of my toes into the old ones for safety because they wouldn't open up enough to allow escape at extreme angles. The "light" Magic Marine versions are very similar (same with different graphics I believe) that are coming on the newer Infusions/Nacras.

Anyone have a link for a US provider for the Magic Marine footstraps I can only find sites in AU and Europe.

When I tried to get mine, I called Jack Young looking for the new Nacra foot straps. He sent me to the Cat House (Fair Warning: specify "sailing and catamaran" keywords when doing a Google search for The Cat House) and they filled my order. What I received had Magic Marine logos on it but was the same thing. You also might want to check with Brett Moss - he's involved with Magic Marine US now.

LandFall Navigation has them as well HERE

The new ahpc boats seem to have them now so Jill could probably sell you some.

She has Dakine.

I spent a lot of time trying to source those and looked at the Dakine extensively. They're really tailored to things like a windsurfing board where the board weighs significantly less than you do and they fit tighter. They also are padded more and I would assume that's for barefooted use (which also makes them a tighter fit with shoes on). I'm really happy with the light Magic Marine versions (they fit the existing Dakine bolt holes too).

Note, on those Magic Marine ones - I installed mine so the logos would face the "right/same" direction on both hulls (yeah, I know...but it's just how I am). This put one of the top velcro straps facing back and the other facing forward. The forward facing one will get blasted open by water flowing down the leeward side of the boat. You can wrap a little electrical tape around it to keep it from unvelcroing (is that a word?) but if you install them with the upper strap opening from stern to bow (and one logo upside down), you won't have that problem.

Riccardi had a few awhile back, so I would assume Jill WAS getting them. If you find a source let me know ,I need a pair or two also.

Very nice tip! Thank you.

Most of the I/N 20 guys I knew ,including me , used 2 footstraps behind the beam for weight adjustment,i.e. your back foot was in one or the other depending on how bow down you were, not for both feet. I would expect that felt pretty off balance.

I sent Bret an email asking if he had any if he doesn't I'll see what CatHouse has.

Why Magic Marine?
I've since many years Da Kine straps on my windsurfboards and since three years on my cat.

They are perfect. Be sure to buy the adjustable ones.

In Holland they are the best sold trademark for footstraps.

Simply put, they're too tight even with the adjustment. I can adjust them to fit but I still have to wiggle my shoe in. They are certainly comfortable and work great but I don't feel confident that I can get my foot out if something were to go horribly wrong (like what happened in the video). I'll post a picture of the ones I have now on my F18 tonight.

Flipped the 20 years ago training for a Worrell and if my foot hadn't come out of my shoe it woulda been ugly. Righted the boat and the shoe was still in the footstrap. The kind of shoes or boots plays a role in this also, but I agree with Jake the DaKines are made for bare feet and are pretty snug. Although it's what I've always used out of availability.

I have the Magic Marines, got them from Todd. They work nice, but can be a bit harsh on the foot, even with a boot. I guess it's a tradeoff between ease of getting the foot in, and padding on the strap. I also like having less padding to rip/degrade etc.

I just ordered a pair from sturgis boat works. $31.xx shipped.

Bri@sturgisboatworks.com

That might explain it, Ricky Riccardi used to work for them.

I've used Dakines on a Hobie 16 in the past (early to mid-90s). I put them on the side rail (didn't want to add holes in the hull). Never had an issue with getting a bootied-foot into or out of them, they were adjustable as I recall. I never capsized or pitchpoled while using them, so I can't say whether it would have been a problem.

Having said that, almost none of the top H16 guys use (any brand of) straps. Most call them "ankle breakers."

I never put them on any of my new boats (owned three starting in 1997). I can think of lots of capsizes that would have been avoided with them, however...

Mike

if the strap goes past the ball of your foot, it's too far.

As Jake said, it should take a bit of muscle to hold your foot there, so it would be relatively easy to get out of should there be a problem. Wedging your foot in the strap spells eventual disaster.

This has been said a million times before but the footstraps keep your feet from getting swept off by a wave , a chickenline keeps the rest of you in the back of the bus. Wouldn't have done much to help the crew in the vid though, unless she had lines for and aft like we used in the Worrells and Tybees. Too much spaghetti for buoy racing though.

I asked Dazz, who started this thread and broke his foot, after the rather low trapeze-hook position.

I asked that because when sailing at sea and using the hookposition from the vid that is impossible. You are hit from the cat in the first wave you meet.

So, for me using a low hookposition, looks more something for flatwater sailing. Nevertheless I keep wondering why you want to chose for such a low position as is seen on the vid.
I mean he was hanging in an angle of more than 90 degrees to the hull.

Is that still usefull?? 90 degrees gives the most leverage, doesn't it. And even so, a footstrap is supposed to keep you from being pulled forward and not from pushed backward. So if there is a serious risk for that last, do not ever use the footstrap,

IMHO the AHPC footstraps are too soft and harder to kick out of than the Magicmarine/Nacra one's.

You'd think somebody would invent a breakaway footstrap, kind of like the binding release on downhill skis.

As far as I can tell, that video is not of Dazz.

Untitled by Green Room Graphics, on Flickr

This is what I'm talking about...a much more open loop than the DaKine style straps.

The video is of Julia and James sailing the Viper, Julia is the one with the busted foot and the moon boot to prove it!

It has been said that that the nosedive was cause by the skipper not concentrating on where he is going. I tend to agree that Julia could have been trapping a little higher so she didn't hit the waves.

standard equipment on C2 and Vipers now, my C2 came with those.

Now I'm not saying this boat has a history of nosediving, but... in this picture you can see the boat was fitted with the new style magic marine foot straps.

James & Julia

Um, OK... Just watched the video; agree, he was looking backwards right before he lost it, probably could have happened to anyone.

How do you get the boat back under control without capsizing, single handed downwind, with the chute up? Can you just sheet everything out and round up?

Mike

You foot deep, but not jibe, then either hope your helm is very neutral or hold it with your foot and douse. I've had to do it a few times.One of them (Hogsbreath 2002) I didn't get the "not jibe part" right and gave myself a concussion with the boom. Temporarily blacked out as the boat flipped over and came to with a death grip on a chickenline seconds (I guess) after hitting the water.

But Jake, the openess of the loop that you want, is fully determined by how you screw the strap on the hull.

Mounted on a horizontal level you can bend the strapends before the fixation a little so that they make a little horizontal angle to each other, resulting in any openess that you want. (Besides the fact that you can adjust the bow itself by the screw distance and the adjustable velcro-mechanism.)

Your fixation with one strapend horizontal and one vertical on the transom itself, I would never use. What do you gain :one or two inches more backward? But your method makes it clear why you have troubles with forming a nice fit for the Dakines.

I like to comment more on the almost standard common used strap position on cat-hulls :

Afb002 by northseajunkie, on Flickr[/img]

You see that I created a much more vertical angled platform for my both feet and I made a specific full platform for my strap. The risk of being trapped in a fall, or when loosing the wire, is much less now. Besides it stands much more comfortable for your feet.

It seems to me that footstraps and their position are still a "stepchild" for cathull designers. You can see on the new Nacra-17's that they made a small step in adapting the hull form a little bit, but not enough TMnHO.

Downwind, got it. Probably not as easy as it sounds, especially if the crew is separated (said Captain Obvious)...

Mike

A word of warning. I've read reports that boats with straps positioned as this picture were said to not be class legal at the A Class World this year: it "increases the hull length". You may agree or not with the decision, but the chief measurer was adamant. Depending on which class of boat you sail you may want to position them differently.

However, considering the number of F18 with straps like this, it's probably a non-issue for that particular class.

Huh...so the footstraps should also be made out of hard stuff since it is, by his definition, part of the hull? That's silly.



Added to which, optional fittings are specifically listed and include footstraps. So, lets take this to the next step; fittings for rudders are also listed as optional items in the same section...by his definition of the footstraps being an extension of the hull, the rudder pintles/gudgeons should also clearly be included in the hull measurement. They are not and have never been even though the rules don't explicitly exclude them from the hull measurement in the same identical way the footstraps are defined. If we subscribed to his interpretation of what constitutes "the hull", every F18 in the world is now illegal. The intent in the rule with regards of the hull measurement is clear and it doesn't include footstraps or rudder pintles....that guy is misopinionated. One man's opinion does not a law make.

What's next? If a crew retention line or trapeze ring swings outside the hull dimension, I'm suddenly illegal?

.

I can confirm what Pepin said. At the A-class worlds last Feb. It was determined that mounting the footstrap with the tab on the rear off the hull constituted part of the hull length and violated the class rule regarding hull length. Everyone had to move their strap forward to comply with the class rules. Rudders and their hardware are excluded, provided the leading edge of the rudder is no more than 3" of the transom. If the leading edge of the rudder is more than 3" of the transom, then the rudder is considered part of the hull measure meant, and the trailing edge is used to determine the 18' max hull length.

I don't have time to dig it up, but there are procedures for measurement, which apply to all boats. Then there are class rules and procedures.

While my "common sense" reaction is exactly the same as Jake's (and I believe I just made the same face as Chandler when I read Pepin's post), there may be more to the story. The class should work with that measurer to find out what he was thinking, and if still in dispute, should work with ISAF for clarification and/or retraining for the measurer, as appropriate.

Mike

Not sure I'm seeing things, but looks like her foot is really jammed in the strap - to the point you can see the front half on the other side. Wouldn't a larger opening encourage putting the foot in too far?

I like the idea of a break-away "fuse" that fails before your foot does.

NSJ- Are those 'Prindle' (Nacra) rudder blades? Look just like the old P16,P18,P18-2, P19 blade shape and style.

Mike's Spot on.

Yep, downwind. The flogging alone ( in normal or better breeze) of the kite up wind will flip you with no sheet tension.You definitely need more than 2 hands. That's one of the main reasons I don't like racing in the same start as singlehanded spin boats.

Yes, they are inspired by the good oldfashioned Prindle style.
I made the blades and the castings all by myself. I can pull the blades down after starting in the break with a rope from the luff-side at the tramp.
That's the main reason why I have chosen for this old design.

Are you agreeing with the interpretation/ decision, or just the narrative of what happened?

Mike

I've been thinking about this a little bit and trying to come up with a fuse geometry that would work. I think you would want a strap where a load applied vertically or forward (as you would get from a hard stuff) is not going to release, but a torsional load would blow the fuse.

It's also tough because the direction of the torsion makes a difference. I've been pivoted forward into the hull before when in the straps, but I wouldn't want that to release me necessarily because the stopping of my forward motion prevented a pitch and we kept truckin'.

I also think it would be important to be able to set the "breakaway" load on the strap as a function of crew size/weight.

I'm going to keep thinking about it, maybe try to build something.

Then again, would you risk an accidental opening during a race situation in an effort to prevent a fairly rare injury?

Not sure I would.

Doesn't matte to me, as long as it is applied the same to everyone, everywhere.

The 18' rule only has an exclusion for the rudder assembly, so therefore the strap is interpreted to be part of the hull.

What if I made a strap that continued down the back of the transom and then flared out at the water line to effectively extend the water line? I could argue that it was part of the footstrap design, if footstraps were excluded from the 18' length rule...

We always made out strap opening so large, that you had to twist/rotate your foot forward or backward to make it grip. Then if you relaxed your foot or pointed it straight, it would come out immediately.

My statement was to the narrative, but I agree with the interpretation also. See Mike Krantz's(#27199) above post. Sailing H-16s you might think what he says above sounds ludicrous, but A catters will do ANYTHING to get an edge,no matter how small, hence the cassettes to make L foils work. That sounded ludicrous until a couple of guys did it.

There was a windsurfing footstrap manufacturer a while ago that made break away foot straps (Footsavers I think they were called). Basically all it was they had an extra piece of Velcro that went between the overlapping Velcro pieces that hold the two halves of the strap together. This extra piece of Velcro "neutralized" a portion of the other Velcro so there was less force holding the two halves of the strap together. You custom tailored the holding power to your liking by increasing or decreasing the amount of overlap of this "extra" piece of Velcro. There's no reason you couldn't do the same thing on most foot straps made today.

Another possible solution would be to use a break-away screw to mount the strap to the boat. A nylon screw would have much less holding power than the stainless machine screws normally used.

I don't really understand the rationale of using only one foot strap. I've windsurfed for almost two decades and the only time I've ever had any concern using the straps is when one foot pops out and the other stays in. The potential for foot and knee injury goes way up when one foot is planted and the other is unrestrained. Seems to me that having two foot straps mounted on the hull would go a long way towards improving safety and giving a more secure ride for the crew.

sm

The F18 rules exclude anything that isn't specifically listed. Footstraps are specifically listed as optional items. At the point a footstrap stopped being a footstrap or started performing another function, by definition, it has become something else. If that "something else" isn't explicitly listed in the rules, then it is clearly excluded and therefore illegal.

The a-cat rules are a lot more basic and generic (used to fit on one sheet of paper and be easily legible) leaving a lot of loop holes open (arguably for the sake of development). The situation is a good bit different for the F18 class.

having your back foot in the strap serves to help limit your forward motion when the boat drives through waves, etc.

A free front foot allows a wider range of foot placement for various sail trim, pointing angle, water conditions.. Such as a wider stance for chop/swell than flat water...

The straps on a cat and on a windsurfboard serve two completely different purposes:

On a windsurfboard and kiting board the straps are used to control your board (by you!!!) when the conditions make that necessary.
On a cat the strap is used to maintain your balance when the wire and/or the cat is pulling you or trying to sweep you off. No way you can control the hulls by your feet in straps.

If you read my prior post, you'd see that I am very open-minded about this matter (the process, not the rule). If this is how the class wants to operate, that's perfectly acceptable. Other folks here (not H16 sailors, BTW) seemed to disagree with the call. I simply provided info on how this should be handled if there was a lingering dispute.

It would probably help you to stop dismissing everything I say as a liberal H16 sailor who couldn't possibly understand anything. The Hobie class rules have a "no-loophole" clause, which I personally take more seriously than others I have observed. For example, running trap shock lines through a grommet in the tramp wasn't specifically allowed, but was being done locally before the factory started building them that way. To me, it wasn't spelled out and shouldn't have been done without a rule change; others thought it was no big deal because it didn't make the boat faster. They said it was done to keep the traps separated, therefore making maneuvers easier. My point was, if there wasn't an advantage, why were all the top guys doing it? Again, I have no problem with a rule change, but it needs to be done properly, and until it is, loopholes should be treated as the enemy.

Mike

Wait, did you just say Hobie 16s are the enemy? or you're the enemy?.... sorry, long day at the office, must not be seeing well

Bret's wife is running the Magic Marine business and she has the footstraps and is sending me a pair. Thanks for the info everyone.

We're a bit sensitive aren't we. Don't know where you got liberal from and are you not an H-16 sailor( that's the only class you refer to from personal experience) which is a strict Single manufacturer one design and NOT a development class, therefore you do not have to deal with such issues as rather the rudders count as hull length if they are outside of a 3" arc, or rather the curve of your foils extend beyond a .75 meter measurement from the centerline. You do not have to try to read attacks into all of my posts, if I attack you it will be abundantly clear. Jeeeze, take a Midol.
p.s. I sail/own a Hobie 16 and an F-18 also, so I'm fully aware of how different class rules operate.

Just observing patterns. Don't worry, I usually triple up on the Midol before reading your stuff.

Mike

Mike,

I'm not sure if you were talking about F18 rules, but your post gave me pause. I went back and reviewed them and nowhere does it say the hull measurement should exclude the rudder fittings (or anything else). The reference drawing has a hull, rudder stock, some sort of casting and a tiller arm and indicates the measurement is from a vertical plane tangent to the bow to the furthest aft point on the hull. There are no rudder pintles/gugeons (or obviously, footstraps) referenced on the drawing either - page 31.

The only text that references the hull measurement is as follows:



http://usf18.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/f18classrules20130101.pdf

If they are indeed making disqualifications (or requiring modifications) on it, the issue should be reviewed and a rules clarification issued.

Jake, i was talking about the A-class rules...

Rule 3
http://www.a-cat.org/sites/default/files/ISAF%20A%20CAT%20rules%202010_0_0.pdf

I hope you don't jump to conclusions like that when you are on a protest committee. If you take someone mentioning what class boat you sail as an insult, you may want to re-examine your thought process or switch classes if you feel that way about it.

Watch it, I'm running low on Midol...

There has to be more to the measurer's interpretation? The overall length... is measured at the extremities of the hulls.

Is there something that trumps D.3.1 of the ERS, which specifically states to exclude fittings when measuring hull length?

http://www.sailing.org/documents/equipmentrules/index.php

Mike

they have an 18' jig that they slide down the bow and transom. If it doesn't fit, you are oversize. I saw more than one person, sanding a couple of mm of gelcoat off the bow to make the jig fit.

Same with the 1.5m rule on the appendages. Several people had to sand the inside of the "L" foils to get the necessary clearance. Also guys with big "T" foil rudders had to sand the outer edges to keep it within the width limit.

See my edits above. Is there something in the class procedures that says fittings must fit in the jig?

Seems counter to ERS, which would be fine if documented and approved (although class procedures don't typically carry the weight of class rules).

Mike

The fittings are excluded from the hull measurement.

OK, so why did the foot straps need to be moved?

Mike

I think if you take this case to the point where someone is mounting a 5' bar to the hull pointing straight aft and trapezing off that, then it becomes part of the hull. A foot strap isn't giving you any more righting leverage than you had before and it's not changing the aerodynamics or hydrodynamics of the hull in a positive way. Obviously, when defining the outer dimensions of the hull the intent is to limit the waterline and available righting leverage (particularly when they start getting into the athwart ship dimensions of the rudder appendage). The footstrap doesn't increase any of these performance characteristics and is, largely, a safety device.

Now, you could argue that having a little extra ability to prevent peter-panning down the side of the hull can improve performance but foot straps are not prohibitively expensive and are easily available to all. People will be trapezing off the corner of their boat whether or not a foot strap is there - should they not increase their safety just a little? It just doesn't make sense to consider that as part of the hull in either case.

You DO increase your righting and anti-pitching moment by moving your footstrap to one tab on the transom. If not why did you ( anyone) do it? You could have just as easily mounted it with both tabs on the shear and lost that extra 2 or 3". Just like Mike's Bungee /tramp example. Rules are rules rather you break them a little or alot.

I was thinking along those lines (moving leverage more to the rear), but there's nothing technically outlawing that (other than loopholes, I guess).

Mike

They also will give you a problem if the footstrap sticks out past max beam . That's why most of them you see at a weigh in are smashed flat.

I still don't see the problem. Don't get me wrong, I believe your story, I just still don't see this as something that is illegal. It's not like having the foot strap would get you further away from the hull (off the sides).

EDIT: On a (somewhat) related note, I don't understand why RRS 49 (lifelines) doesn't include a clause that turns it off for boats with trapezes. It already allows hiking straps and stiffeners (battens in your pants). There are more than enough boats that use them (not just cats), that it makes no sense to force class rules to change this. (I guess this is a question for the Rules Committee...)

Mike

You'd have to ask the IACA technical committee. Can't help you with why they do what they do,but it's the rules we (The A class) have to play by and that's good enough for me, in this instance.

I agree, so long as it's transparent. I can definitely see it being a potential slippery slope, along the lines of what Jake said above.

Mike

I think that sums it up entirely. I have mine set so I can't get my foot in there much past my toe and have the start of the ball of my foot in there at most which means it's actually quite easy to fall out but I have to make sure my foot stays in. All in all it looks like every sailors nightmare (I regularly race against the poor girl in question) and the only thing worse would have been for the boat to fall over whilst she was still trapped



I think she was trying to get her weight all the way back and it was more a combination of boat stopping (nosedive) and then rapid acceleration combined with a wave as it recovered. Whilst that was shot overseas, the waves look similar to what she sails week in week out at home. Unfortunately our home waters are renown for a short sharp relatively big chop which can make getting boats down wind a challenge at times.

Okay Mike, I'm clear now with the vid from Dazz; it's about James and Julia and she broke her foot (I hope I'm excused for my absentmindedness; age you know).

And I don't want to blame Julia.

But it all has to do with the different mindset from competition sailors and recreational sailors like me.

I personally would never search in catsailing the extremes and take risks, just for winning. So, going for the last inch of leverage with a footstrap on a discutable place (don't fall over me please) and hanging on a wire adjustment which is in fact a bit too long for the circumstances, is a no-go for me.

I do take risks but most of the times calculated and always have to do with trying to sail in rough(er) conditions.

So when we talk about footstraps on cats ,my point is that they are only an expediënt, an aid, for keeping your balance.
And that's why, in my opinion, the cathull by its form should give you a-priori a comfortable, safe and solid stance hanging on the wire. And footstraps can and should extend this solid stance for rougher conditions/or more competitive conditions.

But only that and in safe enough way.

OK...so, hypothetical time. What if the footstraps were mounted to the rudder heads? The rudder is excluded from the hull measurement.

I know, not terribly practical but it COULD be done. I think this illustrates the silliness of including a footstrap as part of "the hull".

I would argue that you can still put your foot in the same spot and trapeze in the same position without the foot strap. I know I can on the F18 and have, on occasion, stood on top of the footstrap (squishing it) when I was caught unprepared and it was adjusted too small for my booted foot to get into it (the old DaKine style - usually the first regatta in the fall when I switch from barefoot to wearing shoes).

Is hell freezing over? ;-), I read most of this thread, and I'm agreeing with Jakes comments- again.

And I have seen a foot strap on a rudder casting- sorry, don't have a pic handy.

And as has been discussed, the strap should be adjusted so you can get your foot out while under tension.

MY Left knee pain still reminds me of a similar situation where I nearly ripped my left leg off at the knee during a capsize- when it was caught under the hiking stap on the tramp. But that was another thread- a long time ago.

Bottom line- Foot straps- good things- provided you adjusted it so you CAN get your foot out when it gets wild.

Ian Billings had a similar broken foot sailing with John Tomko years ago I believe.

Again, no one has yet pointed to the document that says the A-Cat ruling in question is official or correct in any way.

As to this hypothetical question, this would need to be limited by the class rule. In the Hobie Class rules, there is a general statement that foot straps may be added. Then, within each of the individual design sections (14, 16, 17, etc.) there is specific language stating where they can be added (hull vs. crossbar vs. wing). Nowhere does it say that you can't add them to the rudder head, but since the rules give specific instruction on where they can be added, putting them anywhere else would most likely be considered getting into the loophole area (not allowed).

The challenge with the A-Class rules is that they need to be flexible enough to allow for innovation, yet restrictive enough so that the boats resemble each other enough to be considered a class. Interestingly, the A-Class rules don't have the loophole disclaimer that Lasers and Hobies use (if it's not listed, it's not legal), making me even more concerned about the validity of this ruling interpretation.

Mike

Todd Sails: I did the knee vs. hiking strap trick while capsizing a Wave at Madcatter a few years ago. NOT fun... Pedro Colon (the Doctor, PUR) said he had to turn away because it turned his stomach to see me hanging there with my leg at that angle...

Mike

I think it should be called an interpretation rather than a ruling. It doesn't sound like it's been challenged in either case.

In the case of the F18, I would simply point out the inconsistency in that the rudder pintles/gudgeons are defined in exactly the same way as the foot strap but the rudder hardware (pintles/gudgons) that is bolted to the back of "the hull" has always been excluded from the overall hull length measurement. Why is the foot strap any different if it is defined in the exact same manner?

Then I would get into the weeds with the semantics if that didn't do it.

OK, but you'd obviously want those to be consistent between events and juries, so it behooves the class to publish the official interpretations (A-class topic).

In the F18 class rules, there is a loophole clause. Foot straps are listed as optional hull fittings, with no discussion on where they could be placed.

So, for the F18s, I would say they must be attached to the hull (including the transom which is part of the hull), would not be included in a length measurement (as they are fittings and the ERS says not to measure fittings as part of hull length), but cannot be added to the rudder (since they are listed as hull fittings and loopholes are not allowed).

I'd even venture to say that the F18 rules are prescriptive and clear enough to not need an official, documented, interpretation.

Mike

Oh, your right. I hadn't thought of "interpretation" in that context. Is the opinion of one measurer either a ruling or interpretation? What's the correct term?

Good point on the F18 foot strap rudder head connection. I had meant that in the case of the A-cat where the foot strap isn't refered to at all but the rudder is excluded from the hull measurement (as long as it's width is within a specific width).

I think the problem in the video is that the crew lost control of the spinsheet while getting got by a wave.
Getting your back foot out of the strap will be impossible if your front foot loses contact with the hull, no matter how tight or loose the straps are.
Just bad luck really.

Some kitesurfboards use so called "skyhooks", it's like a hook where you can put your toes under to lift the board out of the water, could work on cats as well.

That is interesting...it would do mostly the same thing and be safer. It would also not require part of the foot strap to be bolted to the back of the hull.

Tony, thanks for posting that, those look like a great option!

Ruling vs. interpretation is an interesting question.

The RRS provides a process which could be circular, depending upon who the measurer is.

RRS 43.1(c) and 78.3 require the measurer to decide if an equipment rule is broken, and if so, to report that to the RC.

RRS 60.2 requires the RC to file a protest if it receives such a report.

RRS 64.3(b) says that if the PC is in doubt about the meaning of a class rule, it shall ask the relevant authority for an interpretation, which the PC is then bound to follow when deciding the protest.

RRS 65.3 requires that if any PC penalizes a boat over a measurement rule [with or without 64.3(b) coming into play], it must report that back to the measurement authority.

Of course, RRS 62.1(a) allows a sailor to file for redress based on the actions of RC, PC and/or measurer; and unless otherwise prohibited, can also appeal any ruling.

So, for all practical purposes, unless the measurer is the class authority, his word ("ruling" interpretation or decision) is most definitely not final.

If he is the class authority, there might be some relief if the PC decides that the measurer is clearly mistaken, but I don't know if there's precedence for this.

EDIT: ERS is not a rule unless invoked by one of the docs listed under the definition of "rule" (NOR, SIs, class rules, Rx, ISAF Regs). The F18 class rules refer to ERS, but neither the A-Class nor the Hobie class rules do so. I'm not sure why not, as this would seem to be a great help for standardization for sailors, measurers and PCs...

Mike

Nice picture and alternative Tony,

But from a biomechanics standpoint- I totally disagree with you.
If your fore foot looses contact with the hull, in MANY situations, including a brisk leg flexion at the knee, unless really wedged in there- the strapped foot WILL come out.
You shouldn't need the torque/force from your other foot to pull the strapped foot out.

Besides that, the skyhooks mentioned by Tony are just to be used by kitesurfers on a directional strapless board.
The newest hype in kitesurfing is kiting strapless!

But doing so at sea you need to pass the breaking waves and that's where you want to lift the board with your feet. So you squeeze both knees together and take the board with you by the skyhooks as you steer the kite up.

This all has nothing or less to do with catsailing.

Don't kill the Messenger please

Yes, but nobody says the hook needs to be as short as that. The upper hook could be 12" long and function like a standard footstrap - just open on the end.

Ofcourse, but the hooks are made of a very densed foam (which will not damage your foot). I wonder if an open bridge of 12" from this foam is stiff enough.

Also I ask myself if open ended will work for your balance.

I think you have to try it. Hope for you that it works.

It would have to have a rigid spine of something other than foam (I'm a mechanical engineer).

Use the sky hooks but turn them around. A wide stance would brace you in. The reversed rear sky hook would keep your rear foot from being washed out from under you. The front skyhook would allow you push back against the rear. relax and you come right out of them.

wouldn't the Sky Hooks interfere with the rudder operation?

It may need development, for all of the reasons given above, but I think the concept is brilliant.

Obviously, the details are absolutely critical, or this goes the way of the dodo or Bethwaite ball and socket trapeze system (loved by few, ignored by most)...

Mike

How will this keep your foot from getting washed off the hull side. That's all a footstrap is supposed to do anyway.

Like Orphan said, turn them around so the openings face each other. If the material were stiff enough, you could flex your foot to grip/brace for a wave.

Mike

Interesting concept.

What about that combined with a shallow well that your foot went into? Like an inch or less deep?

Thanks, but I'll stick with the footstraps, tensioned as suggested, that have already worked for me for close to 10,000 miles of ocean racing. If you guys want to re-invent the wheel feel free. The chance of hurting yourself pitchpoling while trying to use a unproven device are way greater than getting hurt with what everyone has been using for a decade and a half.Just adjust the things right and it's not an issue.

Thoughts on this, anyone?

Mike

The problem I see with the skyhooks is how do you attach them to the hull without ripping them out of the deck during a crash? (Bigger attachment footprint would help).
Funny thing is, is that I would never buy this for my directional kitesurfboard, much better to go strapless

You sound like the guy that said the wheel was crap and would never pan out. And, "fire"? you'll just burn yourself....heeeeh.

What was that guys name again?
Please put all of that "ground breaking stuff" on your boat, especially the next time we're racing against each other.I expect to see skyhooks on your boat the next time I see it. What a great place this forum is where real life experience counts for nothing and an engineer or keyboard sailor's guess is inscribed in stone, especially if they have a high post count, 'cause ,Hey, we all know that's what really matters.

Has anyone looked up the price of the skyhooks?

At $20-30 per pair, straps are cheap and effective. They also last many years. I'm guessing those hooks are going to be costly when designed for our application. That cost is going to be a hurdle for developing them.

My straps received the most use as handles for moving the boat around on the beach. The bigger catamaran skyhook I have in my head doesn't seem that it would work as well for that use.

They do however seem to offer some advantages.

I don't know if it would ever work but it looks like an interesting thing to try. I probably won't have the time to ever put it together but I have a design in my head that will very likely work well and addresses all the concerns raised here. This is how new things come about - you try them and try to make them better. Sometimes it works, sometimes it takes a lot of refinement, sometimes it fails. Ever see Randy Smyth's scissors? America's cup on foils? It's not like this affects you in any way at all - good god man, why are you so angry and hateful?

(ps, and I'm actually a pretty good designer and have affected the delivery and handling of products you touch and drink every day)

What about keeping you at the rear/footstrap when the bow stuffs and the boat decelerates, sending you up to 'check out the jib'?
IMHO, the footstrap is WAY more important to actually keep you back there for that.

I love how you sling an insult "you sound like.." and when someone responds in kind they are angry and hateful. Like I told Tad you raised your hand, don't get all butthurt when you get called on. You wanted to play...and that's all it is.


And humble too. Well, this certainly makes you more than qualified to design footstraps for a sailboat, get on it or you'll be the new Doug lord in no time.

I would second the comment about the footstrap holding my back foot when the boat decelerates rapidly. The chicken lines work better, but sometimes it's not practical to rig them (for buoy racing, as an example)

I have been washed out of the back strap once or twice, but managed to stay with the boat using the mainsheet/spinsheet (sometimes it wasn't pretty, but worked).

Maybe a combination approach? Traditional strap at transom to keep you getting lurched forward, and some version of the skyhook thingy near the beam to help you from getting washed off the back?

Or maybe just velcro shoes?

"You sound like someone that said the wheel was a bad idea" while you are actually being negative and scorning new ideas, isn't exactly the same thing as calling you an ****. It was intended as a fun way to illustrate the fact that you were being negative on something that might prove out to be a worthwhile endeavor. Your negativity served no purpose. You don't have to buy it, believe in it, or hear anything about it. I'm sorry if I offended you.

What if the design was 2 of those hooks of a dense foam that basically formed a strap but had a seam or gap in between them that could release your foot when it saw a load other than shear?

Your fixing the problem at the wrong end....

the issue is the waves we encounter,
it can cause the boat to suddenly stop and thus sending us forward until we slam into the side shrouds
or
we actually are struck by the wave sending us off the back of the boat

so.....

we either get rid of the waves (not so easy)

or we fit a rudder-blade to our trap jackets (just below the shoulder blades) and that rudder must have winglets



as the wave strikes us the blade will keep us straight and the winglets will lift us clear of the water




its all about winglets I tell ya

MOst all of us have used Chicken lines also, but

In the GT300, I think the tybe also;

Chris Green had a rig for his crew;

The was a line from the front and rear crossbar that the crew would pull tight and put into a jam cleat- one on each side- so it held him from going forward or backwards.
Seemed to work

Chicken lines are allowed by SIs, and are not necessarily in class rules, correct? If so, there is a specific procedure for this, and it involves getting permission from the class association.

Mike

Are those strong enough? I imagine those were designed to lift a board weighting 3 kgs out of the water, not to stop a 95kgs man from flying forward…

skyhooks

experience with padded skyhooks