New UK designed and built foiling catamaran

Here are few video clips of an all new foiling catamaran prototype......it weighs in at 75kgs ready to sail and is 17'6" long with 8'beam....more info and spec coming soon .......the final production version will be around 65kgs!

Whisper catamaran

Whisper catamaran

Whisper catamaran

That's some of the most stable small-boat foiling I've seen in a long while. T-Foils with trailing wands. Interesting.

looks like an A-cat with Moth foils

how far outboard do those T foils extend?

Wouldn't want to injure the crew when picking them up from the water... but as stable as that thing looked, maybe it's not an issue.

Wow, that's pretty fricking awesome looking, looks extremely stable. I still want to see how they work around the cans though.

Is the crew sheeting the main from the top block? What would be the reasoning on that? Looks too high to be mid-boom sheeting.

From the designer builder....

" the hull is carbon sandwich with kevlar carbon aramid in impact areas.
It has a 9.5m carbon wing mast with 16 square meters of sail and a roller furling gennaker the size of which is still to be determined. the rig loads are taken through the bowsprit. the production version is a single component monocoque with stress mapped fiber layup"

More info to follow.....

Latest video.....

Whisper catamaran

And here is a video of my business partner sailing the whisper (his very first attempt at foiling!)....in bugger all wind!

Whisper

Brandy Snap2 weeks ago
Whisper is a custom built 17' 9" cat being developed by Southampton Solent University as part of its foil development research. Whisper has been so successful in providing a stable easy to control platform, and there has been so much interest in the boat, that a production version is currently being designed, which will incorporate a number of modifications which will make the Whisper truly remarkable

I beginning to think something like this might be mainstream enough to actually be in my future.

I haven't watched all of the video, but do the foils retract? What's the price range?

did any of them indicate a price?

Do the rudder foils move, or just the main foils?

Looks super-cool

Pricing and final production version spec coming very soon....

given what I saw with the AC boats, do you even need a spinnaker with a foiling cat? Maybe just a screecher?

and does it matter that much if you trap out?

Just to clarify....
1.Boards: Fully retract flush to the the hull surface so the boat can be launched in the same depth of water as a standard displacement catamaran and have both angle of attack and ride height 'on the fly' adjustment....
2.Rudders: Fully retractable and also have 'on the fly' trim adjustment similar to a moth....
3.Sail area: Jib, main and furling gennaker (which hasn't been required so far as it has such a early take of speed) final sail area is being finalised based on the current daily sea trials....
4.Platform construction:The hulls and beams will be a monocoque style construction on the final production boat....
5.Delivery: The first production boats will be ready for delivery in January 2015........
6.Pricing: The final retail price will be decided in the next 3 to 4 weeks but do believe interested parties will be very very pleasantly surprised.....

What about crew weight?

combined crew weight around 150/160kg

singlehand? (I don't have any friends)

Sweet baby jeebus, somebody go check on whether the Nile has turned to blood or if any other Biblical plagues have popped up!

You will if you buy that.

I had heard that Karl ......but yes it has been designed to be sailed single handed if desired

It does look more difficult to launch from the beach compared to the 'L' foils.

The foils fully retract to the hull surface for launching and landing....

Like those foils could become "ankle biters" if you're not careful?

(this from a guy who still gets "bit" on the shin by the dang trailer hitch... you'd think I'd have learned by now)

How do you insert the boards when you are on the beach?
Won't the T foil break when you pull the boat on its side (assuming they enter from the bottom).

It's going to wieght less than 150 lbs. Less without the rig. Pick it up by the rear beam and stick em in.

It weighs 75kgs.......you get someone to lift the bows or stern on the beach and insert from below.......designer is going to do a video this weekend of the whole process.....

Well Karl, that eliminates sailing UNI.

It only eliminates sailing Uni if you have no friends at your sailing club.....

Ah,that makes sense. Missed the part about it weighing 75kg.
Hope you bring it to Texel next year.

It will be there....

I'm thinking stick em in before it even comes off the trailer. And certainly before you rig it. Boards would probably be the first thing to go in.

VERY COOL Design !!

Bille

That thing is exactly what we need.

It's already in your color, Karl. Brilliant choice, if that doesn't attract attention, nothing will...

Mike

Make sure the rigging at the top of the stick is squared away before you put the boards in. No flipping that bitch over on her side on the beach.

A set of chocks designed for the boat could solve that problem.

With the light weight, it's probably possible to tip it over on the bows.

Land based pitch-pole. I like it!

This is so excellent.
I'm predicting that many boats will be made and sailed with foiling design in the next few years.
Sorry Nacra- but your half so designs so far don't touch this- yet. Nacra?
Still not predicting earthquakes, or anything about the temperature though.

Launching......

Launching

Jesus. Finally something else about this boat. Edge of my seat here.

Nice boat!



Doable, provided the spinnaker pole is easy to swing out of the way.

The use of Moth like (or equal) foil technology is a natural -and smart- move. It saves R&D time and money, plus the parts are readily available (or easy to scale up).

Still, J foils are probably less draggy, besides the practical advantages already mentioned in this thread.

No spi for me, please, just an upwind headsail for light conditions.

a couple of little things.

1. Moth style foils were tried on C-cats and proved slow. L/J/Z/C foils have proven fast. Obviously there are a lot of things that effect the cross over on where different systems are beneficial but right now the evidence points towards the non-wand systems being faster.

2. "52 MANUAL POWER
A boat’s standing rigging, running rigging, spars and movable hull
appendages shall be adjusted and operated only by the power
provided by the crew. " <-- Moths modify this rule in their sailing instructions/class rules. As such sailing a boat like this in an event that doesn't change this rule would be impossible. It has taken how many years for cats to become "acceptable", how long will it take to get this rule dropped?

One could argue that the crew adjust the sails, sails capture wind propelling the boat forward, and the wands use the forward motion that resulted from the sailor's "power".

The intent of that rule was to disallow motorized, hydraulics, and/or other types of stored energy systems. I don't think there should be an issue with a wand tapping the surface of the water and adjusting a foil.

I agree with what you say, but as a sailplane pilot and avid
HG pilot ; i really wouldn't mind having control over
the height above the water, on a machine like a foiling Catamaran.
IF
the controls were made Simple !!

Had this same discussion with a world class Rigid wing pilot
who also happens to be an airline captain, and avid sailor .
He's the one who convinced me of such .
Only the
inept arm-chair sailors
Need a devise that does this automatically.

Think about it : Your on a broad-reach, in 3-ft chop; you
really want some mechanical devise telling Ya how High you should be above the water ?

Bille

I 100% agree and the issue expressed isn't mine but the accepted interpretation by the one class that has made foiling a true success and the reason they write the change of ISAF rules into their rules. Which is my point about the need for a rule change or an official interpretation. If I was one of the people behind this project I'd be contacting the ISAF and getting an official interpretation before investing production and marketing funds. This won't be a cheap boat and if is to be a success it will be racing sailors buying it and they wont buy it if they're worried about being protested out of big events.

What is the point of this boat?

1: To be faster than archimedan beachcats

2: To be a foiling beachcat

3: To be a line-honors beachcat

4: Have fun


When comparing the technology in this boat with "Off Yer Rocker", why is this boat a possible success compared to the first foiling C-class? Is the wand control system a "faster" solution compared to non-adjusting foils?


Do get meg right. I really like this boat and effort! Would definately like to have one myself

I feel that without details and numbers from the foils, we can't really say that this boat has foils just like those C foils. I'm not sure that we are comparing apples to apples.

I think it's rather exciting, a 75kg double handed sounds nice! I am prepared to be let down on the price though.

Foil testing......

Foil testing

Rolf,
That's exactly what I was thinking. What speed is the boat traveling in the vortex test video? I would be curious to compare numbers with non-foiling (F-18?) and other foiling boats in the same conditions. The Whisper does seem to get up on foils pretty early but that doesn't surprise me comparing the lifting surface area. I bet it has an advantage in low wind but would get mowed down by a c-foiling boat once the wind picked up. I'm not an engineer or a scientist so this is all layman speculation.

I think the Whisper would be a hoot to use in a light/moderate wind Round the Island. At least until you get to the "narrows".

Regardless of the price it will be out of my budget, but I would be surprised if it comes out any lower than 30K. I would think a great price would be in the low to mid 20s. Heck, at that price I may own a used one in a decade or two.

I think just about everything will get taken out by a modern C -Cat wouldn't it? But, hardly anyone can afford one, very few sail them, even less build them.

I just want to know how this, or any of the other readily available foiling boats, do around the cans. Does this, the Phantom, or the Nacra 20 foil going upwind? Do they go upwind well? How ugly are the tacks and gybes?

This thing looks, really cool and right up my alley. But if it can't go to weather for crap, there's no point for me. That's the downside of any of these videos. You can't really tell how they would do against another design. Line it up against a A-Cat, an F16, and an F18 on a windward leeward and see how they stack up.

It sure looks stable!

I'd bet by the time you get one shipped to the US, it'd be pushing close to $40k.

Why would this foiler be more successful than this one:

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=7984

I think there's some confusion on the terminology - I think somebody started talking about "c shaped foils" (which are old tech...I think they mean "J" boards like the America's Cup and C-cats used). Somebody mentioned C-cats and made it all confusing.

GREAT Point! that boat has all but been forgotten! But, to address your question, the Windrider Rave weighed in around 400lbs and setup time was measured in fractions of a day.

We should also ask the same question about this one that predates the Rave. The trifoiler came around in the early 90's (I think).
Hobie Trifoiler

Because the trifoiler, although fun, sucks in anything but the ideal conditions and point of sail.

Yeah, I was talking about C-shaped foils, not the C-cats.

The reason C-cats were brought up (by me) was because the Canadians went down the same design path as the "whisper" 7 years ago when they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars building "Off Yer Rocker"


And of course half way through the event, because it was slow, they did this:

Ah yes, the Ketterman tri foiler. I think he sold to Hobie?
My old boat, the 'Millenium Falcon' sailed right by once one day when someone brought one to the TX City Dike.
That boat that's in my Avatar
It was on it's foils, I was on a close reach, not going to weather, and not quite beam.

or there is this (a bit smaller):



http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/balnarring/sail-boats/catamaran-stealth-for-sale/1053315860

Moth style foils are called T-foils.
T-foils are slower than J-foils.
BUT
We use T-foils with our kite boards ; and they have
gone over 40kts with them. That's NOT too Bad ?

Seriously -- if i were to build a catamaran for the purpose
of selling it ; i wouldn't Want it to go much faster than
35-kts, because of liability issues !! ?
I WOULD want it to be Very stable, and easy to sail.

Up-wind on a T-foil with a kite board ; they will Blow-by
any conventional devise currently available ; and do it
in Less wind. SO a decently designed T-foil should do
quite well on a catamaran.

Wing loading on the hydrofoil, has proven to be a BIG
thing with our kite boards ; wonder if it affects a heavier
catamaran as well ?

Bille

You can have a "T" foil without it being a "moth style foil" The key to the moth technology is the wand used to control ride height via lift. This has been adopted by both the whisper and the Stunt S.9.

YEA -- i see what you're talking about now !!

Wait...I think I felt the earth move...Bille is worried about liability?

Wands aren't just for T foils, there are also wands controlling L-ish foils on Long Shot, TOP SPEED = 43.59 knots
"Longshot is a hydrofoil trimaran with a biplane rig. Two curved foils are mounted beneath the outer hulls, and a third foil forms an inverted T at the bottom of the rudder. The angle of attack of the outer foils is controlled by surface sensors attached forward of the outer hulls with flexible struts."

The wands on Whisper appear to be very slick. When they put the boards down there were no connections to make between the levers and the boards, and it looks like they fit into the trunks. On a moth and stunt there is a lever connection point mounted forward. Also a moth can't raise the foils, so there seems to be some interesting engineering on the Whisper.
Based on the video, the whisper seems to foil in the light stuff very easily. It seems like there would probably be too much foil area for the heavy winds if this works anything like sail area does. Time will tell on that speculation, but have seen moth videos where they said that it was too windy to get downwind. That could be just from too much sail area, but it could have something to do with foil size as well.

Not completely sure WHY you would say That ?

If i were actually Selling Fast Cat's ; then Yes i would be
worried about liability in this sue Crazy USA . Crap -- every
other advertisement on radio or local TV , is about some Lawyer
trying to talk people into hiring them !!

Bille

From Kite boarding, i know that Both foil aria and Sail aria
must be balanced , to match the riders weight and speed he
wants to go, for the wind that day.

And that brings up another question : "why are so many
cat sailors, so Reluctant to reef a main sail, to match
the power of the wind on any given day" ?

you mean these days are gone?
but seriously it does make some sense to make a boat that gets up and goes in the lighter stuff.

Oh-oh...Don't let the lawyers see that picture of a Hobie without a comp tip!

I like that the mainsail is reefed...

YES !!!!!!!!

I was kite boarding on lake Mohave a few years back ; there was
a Hobie regatta going on that day , with 50 + cats on
the beach. They were ALL looking at the 30+ mph wind
and nobody was actually out on the water but one guy and
his daughter, (and they were tearing it up) !!

As a kite boarder i had No problem with that wind, because
i simply matched the sail-aria to the power needed for the day.
I did the Same with my buddy on our Hobie 20 ; if it was
blowing 30+, we reefed the main to the size of a Hobie 16
for the day, (Or even sailed without the main, and just used
a jib).

I do NOT understand why most cat sailors won't
reef a main and match the sail aria to the wind conditions
for the day ; it seams beyond DUMB, to me ? !!!

Bille

No hardware for it on new boats.
Mainsail shape is ruined when reefed as the luff curve dont match the mast.
If racing and the windspeed changes, you loose if reefed.

As the boats today are mostly racing oriented. They are simply not ready.



Now back to the brit foiler?

This.



Upwind isn't the problem. Diamonds maxed, downhaul maxed, rotation back, sheeted hard and drop a couple of inches of traveler and you're there. You're spilling so much air, and the sail is so flat that unless you had a way to properly make use of your downhaul, you'd probably be making more unwanted power than if you made use of what you've already got. Floppy masts and squaretop mains have an amazing amount of control.

Downwind though, better bring the beef.

and yes, back to the Limey Flyer.

The modern rigs also de-power pretty well. I don't know about 30+ I've never encountered that much wind. If I lived in an area with conditions like that I might give it some more thought.

In a straight line - I'll buy that a little...but maneuvering (tacking / gybing) with a reefed rig is MUCH easier.

This.

What do the trailing wands do?

Sense the boat's height above water and use it to control the amount of lift generated by automatically adjusting either angle of incidence or flap angle.

Bring enough gun to the fight.

I was originally thinking of reefing for long-distance type races where conditions deteriorate during the race. Sure, going out around the buoys when it's 30+ may not make sense in the first place, but in a controlled area it may be worth finding your "limit".

Now, based on the conversations, if there were an easy way to reef/unreef I think you'd see more people take advantage of that in longer races.

The time you spend reefing/unreefing (if it's a straightforward process) would more than make up for the time spent sideways.

My roller-furling boom makes reefing a snap: Three cranks and two grommets (downhaul and outhaul) and it's reefed. Even easier if I don't need to shape the sail (just roll and go). Un-reefing is the reverse.

Perhaps this could be adapted to smaller boats, as I have teardrop rotating/canting mast just like you short-boaters.

Let's stop hijacking this thread and start a new thread specific to reefing, as it is an underdiscussed topic. I'll create the topic thread under "Reefer Madness". See you there.

Back to the original dream of owning a boat that will cost more than my house!

sure thing. Thanks

BUT, would this speed demon need to be reefed in heavy air to reduce the chance of the foils ventilating?

I'm sure at some point you'll have to depower, even if it's at 40 kts boatspeed rather than 30.

Between jib and main this boat has 15 to 16 m2 of sail ........final spec being decided as we speak

Would the hit of the extra weight of a wingsail work since its not pitching around? I think being able to depower was a huge plus for wings?

Southampton boat show report.....

Southampton boat show report

Hey, I'll be in Southampton next Saturday (my son is starting at the other university there), anybody knows if this boat will be visible somewhere around then?

[Mmm, the southampton boat show will still be going then, but £20 to see one boat is pretty steep!]

That looks nice but it seems to be built on an A-cat chassis. If you had your druthers about which boat you'd like to foil in ocean conditions, would you take this, the Phantom, or the FCS20?

The boat is based at Weston Sailing Club on Southampton Water post the show......please pm me for more details of how to see it and possibly test sail.....

The platform you see at the moment is a fresh built platform (not an A class although very similar in lines) that was constructed to test foils and foil control theories.....all up sailing weight is 78kgs......final platform will be radically different in its construction and will come in at around 65kgs all up sailing weight.....first customer boats available late january/early february 2015....this prototype boat has been tested on Southampton Water and the Solent (which can be quite lively!) in quite varied conditions as well as being put through the big wake off the back of the ferries that travel between Southampton
and the Isle of Wight and has performed magnificently.....can understand your pessimism but have to say it has outperformed everyones expectations involved in the project....how it compares against the FP and the FCS in full 'ocean' conditions.....time will tell.....

Sure, but what if you don't plan on sailing "ocean conditions" with your future boat?

Kind of like me considering snow tires in the tropics...

For future reference, snow tires work pretty f-ing awesome in the dirt.

Interesting, Karl. How about sugar sand? Seems that's about all we have here...

Nothing but big fat paddle tires work in sand in my experience.