Gilligan's Run Mark Rounding Video

Below is the video I threw together of the first mark rounding near Ocean Deck. The Music is from Mike Mineo (www.MikeMineo.com) who is Chip Collard's (Delray Commodore) stepson.

http://youtu.be/KWOKxaKi0sA

I have a couple of videos from Florida 300 done I will be posting soon too.

Pretty cool. The waves certainly have to play into your strategy.

Did that H16 foul those guys (around 40 seconds in)? They came out of the rounding in pretty good position.

In my opinion, yes.

Well, photographic evidence is always suspect, because it can be difficult to judge distances due to perspective. That said, however, this video angle is pretty good.

It looks to me like the Hobie 16 gybes about 4-5 boatlengths from the mark (outside the zone), but I'll do the rule analysis both ways. If she gybed outside the zone, then:

• At times 0:25-0:41 the H16 is overlapped with 5 boats (purple spin, 2 non-spins, red spin, and blue spin). H16 is on starboard tack, the others are all on port tack. All 5 must keep clear of H16 (rule 10) and they do.
• At time 0:42, H16 gybes. Now rule 11 applies. H16 must keep clear of the boats to leeward, and she does. Purple is either overlapped to windward of H16 or very quickly becomes so. She must keep clear, and she does. All 6 boats sail together until time 0:44.
• At time 0:44, purple (the boat closest to the mark) reaches the zone. Per rule 18.2(b), all the other boats must thereafter give her mark-room. Per rule 18.2(b), all the boats outside H16 must thereafter give her mark-room.
• At times 0:44-0:59, the boats sail to the mark. Purple (due to a slow takedown and/or a wave) sails wide of the mark. H16 pulls between Purple and the mark. The other boats give them mark-room (although they don't all keep clear of each other).
• At times 0:59-1:02, H16 and Purple round the mark. During that time, H16 has given Purple mark-room and has kept clear of her. Purple never shut the door on H16.

H16 did not break any rule. Now let's consider the rules if H16 were within 48 feet of the mark when she gybed:

• At times 0:25-0:41, H16 is overlapped with the other boats and has right-of-way under rule 10. Per rule 18.2(b), all other boats must thereafter give H16 mark-room. When in the zone, rule 18.4 requires H16 sail no further than necessary to sail her proper course before gybing.
• At time 0:42, H16 gybes, satisfying rule 18.4.
• After time 0:42, H16 takes the mark-room to which she is entitled.

Again, H16 breaks no rule.

It appears to me that the Nacra and the Prindle (the non-spins) might both break rule 11 at time 0:59. The Prindle would be exonerated under rule 64.1(a).

The boat that really does well, is the one with the smoke-color round-top mainsail. She comes from behind and shoots through the hole right behind the H16. Poor Red has a bad douse followed by a bad tack and falls behind.

Those who might object to H16 and Round-top taking room to which they are not entitled, I refer to ISAF Case 63, which states "at a mark, when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may, at her own risk, take advantage of the space".

Regards,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge
Chair, SAYRA Appeals Committee

I was the F16 with purple spin.

The H16 came into the mark hailing "Mark Room" and as I had nowhere to go but up I sailed windward of her. Upon completing the gybe, the H16 headed up and struck my rudder housing; promptly hailing PROTEST for not keeping clear.

I then caught a wave and scooted to the mark. I didn't "close out" the Hobie 16 as I had no dagger boards so you can see my "slipping" as I was rounding. I was also trying to give the H16 some room as I wasn't sure of the 3 boat circle.

The H16 touched my port hull as the wave brought her around the mark. She called for PROTEST again.

I sailed clear and did a circle.

Boards, F16's don't need no stinkin boards!

Lol, this is why I usually refrain from commenting on actual incidents. Invariably, people who were present chime in with differing (usually contradictory) accounts of what actually happened. Without an actual protest hearing, with its "finding of fact", nobody can give a true appraisal of the rules.

This does serve, however, to illustrate the problem with photographic evidence. When looking at the video, I did not see the contact you mention - the perspective makes it hard to see.

Hypothetically speaking, if a boat on starboard tack gybes to leeward of a port tack boat, and immediately rounds up and makes contact, then the gybing boat would probably be found to have broken rule 16.1 (by changing course without giving the other boat room to keep clear). Also, if an inside windward boat contacts an outside leeward boat during a mark rounding, then the windward boat breaks rule 11 (by not keeping clear), and probably rule 14 as well.

Who would be penalized depends entirely on whether the starboard tack boat was inside or outside the zone when she gybed. If she was in the zone, then the gybing boat would be exonerated for breaking rules 16 and 11 under rule 21(a), and for breaking rule 14 (provided there was no damage nor injury) under rule 14(b).

If the starboard tack boat was outside the zone when she gybed, then she receives no exoneration. Instead, the other boat would be exonerated for breaking rule 11 (first contact) under rule 64.1(a). The other boat would likely either not break rule 14, or would be exonerated under rule 14(b).

Either way (still speaking hypothetically) one penalty turn would not be sufficient. There were two separate incidents of contact, and each would require its own penalty. See US Sailing Appeal 65, which states "the test of whether two occurrences were one or two incidents is whether the second occurrence was the inevitable result of the first". As (hypothetically) described, the second contact was not "the inevitable result" of the first.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Thanks. Those big rollers make closing distances and times vary (one sent sent tback past the H16, but then another wave pushes the H16 back up to tback at the mark). Is there any dispensation for wave action or is it assumed you can navigate independent of wave action?

Agreed that the smoke colored sail made out like a bandit. Comes in wide and leaves close to the mark.

Eric,

quite to the contrary, I find your analysis to be very succinct and helpful in evaluating what I'd do in similar situations.

I keep telling myself that I am going to stop being that guy that doesn't apply the rules, instead bringing the discussion here (that's the easy way out).

Thanks Eric


Terry

next time, Terry, just use the "Karl #2 method":

Grab cutlass
Board offending yacht
Chop down mast/shrouds
Pillage
Carry off young maidens
Set alight offending yacht

Seems to work out from a historical perspective... And reduces time spent in protest room

Frankly, I think you should have kept going to be beach and handed in your tiller for letting the H16 beat you to the leeward mark in the first place!

What was the camera platform, a quad copter drone? Very cool!

Great video and great rules discussion, to me it looked like there was a chance of contact once the Hobie 16 gybed in front of the other boats, this was avoided when the F16 went around it but it looks like if that wave had caught the F16 a few seconds earlier it would probably have surfed the F16 over the back of the Hobie 16. To me it looks like the Hobie 16's bow swung past the proper course at 45 seconds, if he sailed that line he would have been above the mark, then went even further above the line to the mark a couple of seconds later causing the collision. Isn't the main rule to avoid collision, the other rule not above proper course, if so wasn't that the cause of contact the Hobie losing control. It also looks to me that the Hobie 16 also had no rights against the F16 rounding the mark as it was in the zone after the F16 so was barging

+1000.....

I agree with Eric, the video is inconclusive, especially regarding the distance to the mark, which will be the fact upon which this entire case hangs.

Having said that, if outside of the zone, I think the H16 is on thin ice for gybing right in front of the other boats, regardless of whether contact was made.

Mike

Isn't there something in the rules referencing that if in question on being within the 3 Boat circle one should assume you're not (similar to whether an overlap got broken)?

I think it used to say something like that. It was/is "If in doubt, assume you are in the zone".

edit; I found it. It's in 18.2 d)



but...errr...wait a minute. which one? obtained or broke overlap? If "reasonable doubt" could go either way, then what is the point of this rule? That should fall into a duh-huh.

Well said if your not racing for cattle stations and you gybe in front of other boats that avoid a collision then round up past the correct course and hit one of them probably sorry is the hail rather than protest

Either one. Imagine:

1. Two boats are approaching a mark and one is overtaking from clear astern. They become overlapped very close to the zone. Boat A claims that she was still ahead at the zone. Boat B claims that she gained overlap just before A reached the zone.
2. Two boats are overlapped approaching a mark, but one is pulling away from the other. They become clear ahead/clear astern very close to the zone. Boat A claims that she broke overlap just before she reached the zone. Boat B claims that overlap was broken just afterwards.

In the first case, there is reasonable doubt that an overlap was established in time. In the second case, there is reasonable doubt that overlap was broken in time. Therefore, Protest Committee must presume that the overlap was not gained in time in scenario 1, and that it was not broken in time in scenario 2.

This is the one place that the rules place a burden of proof on one boat or the other. It is up to the boat claiming to have gained or to have broken overlap to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that she did so in time.

Given that it is quite difficult to determine exactly where the zone begins on the water, RRS 18.2(d) makes it easier for boats to apply RRS 18.2(b) while racing.

Regards,
Eric

Eric,

Thanks as always...I think I've got it now. When there is debate it is about whether one or the other happened (either obtained or broke overlap).

So, in the case where they are debating if they obtained overlap, with any reasonable doubt, it should be assumed that the overlap was not obtained.

In the case where they are debating if they broke overlap before entering the zone, the assumption should be that they did not break overlap.

The takeaway you have while racing is, if you are not absolutely positive that you have established or broken overlap before the zone, assume that you have not and proceed with this in mind.

That rule works well for boats on the same tack, or at least not maneuvering. This case presents an interesting challenge for a jury. The closest boat gybed, probably just outside of the zone, and was passed while gybing, overlap was created basically as they were entering the zone, or just before, and all because of where the H16 gybed.

Mike

Nice takeaway Jake



Mike... "nice problem for the jury!!!" hmm.... maybe true but the rules are trying to NOT make for interesting cases...

The principle underlying Jake's take home is "You can take advantage of mistakes by others.. but the rules themselves are not a weapon to use to win in the corners.

I would add... the underlying notion that you can use the rules to gain an advantage at the corners is not valid and we can forget that...If you race into the corner with that mindset....chances are you foul...

old farts remember our younger impressionable days and remember lots of stories from the top of the fleet about how you did this kind of thing.... it was part of the game... the more balls you had.... the better the result.
The current rules requires an attitude adjustment.... to the bigger your balls... the more success you have mindset.

playing with big heavy monohulls drives home the principal... the rules are not weapons at the corners. If you haven't passed the guy... before the corner... don't push your luck.. chances are you can't prove you did not foul.

the powers that be are always trying to make the game a bit more "elegant" by trying to get the language they use just right and universally understood. Its tough!

Yo so I was the guy in the H16 at the mark. Firstly I want to say sorry to Terry, I totally didn't mean to clip your rudder coming out of that gybe. I sail catamarans like twice a year at most, so the gybing thing where you have to throw the tiller off the back of the boat and pass it around the mainsheet... Im not used to that. And the wave hitting us at the same time didnt help either.

I knew I was performing an agressive maneuver there. Because how close the mark was to the beach and because H16's don't point well, we wanted to get inside at the mark so we could tack out at our first opportunity. Thats why we did an early gybe and came in on starboard in the first place.

After the contact I didnt know if I was in the right or the wrong. Thats why I yelled protest like 3 times. What I learned from college sailing is that whoever yells "protest" the quickest, loudest, and most confidently, normally coerces the other boat into doing turns first. So yeah. Sorry about that.

Nice to meet you all by the way. Ive never been on here before.

Props to you Joel for coming out to sail with those guys.... AND for being right up with them at C gate:)

You'll learn a lot from the expert discussion on this thread.

Mark, you read too much into that. Imagine if this case came to the room without the video. Establishing the distance and overlap situation based only on verbal testimony would be challenging.

I personally agree about the rules as a weapon, but match racers and team racers (thus college sailors at the top schools) are absolutely taught tactics based upon the explicit verbiage (what is said and not said) of the rules. There are those who feel strongly that it is a key part of our sport at the highest level. To your point, this really only works on dinghys, supplied boats or by guys with more cash than they know what to do with...

Mike

Here's how I saw it, on the video that is.

What tack did the H16 come in on again?

The outer 2 boats were trying to give room.
The inner (Purple)boat did keep clear,
the H16 (and by his admission on here about gybing the tiller 'behind' the maisheet- isn't that how you 'tack' too? but I digress) he went to high and actually 'fouled' the inside boat. You can't just steer up and tag someone and yell 'protest'.

That was some light air, at first I thought it was in slow motion.

The way I see it, until H16 gybed onto port, He HAD rights- as in to sail a bit farther, etc.

The way it played out- the only foul I saw on video, was the h16 tagging the other boat when he lost control during the gybe. The three boats coming in on Port looked as though they were trying to 'avoid' the starboard boat, which did indeed gybe onto 'port' right in front of them.

Would this also be true of reaching the zone?

If he was a collegiate sailor, he's probably closer to being an expert than many of us on a weekend race course!

Be very careful about bringing lessons from collegiate sailing into regular fleet racing. ISSA "class rules" change several racing rules (particularly RRS 42). Also, some college coaches teach the sailors to play it a little "fast and loose" with the rules. I've seen multiple sailors get into trouble after coming out of college sailing programs.

Particularly, if a sailor believes he has broken a rule, or doesn't know whether his or the other boat has broken a rule, but tries to intimidate the other boat into giving way or taking a penalty, then he breaks Rule 2 "Fair Sailing".

Welcome to the forum, and please take the above as advice, not criticism.

Regards,
Eric
US Sailing Judge
Chair, SAYRA Appeals Committee

Yes and no.

The rules are written such that one boat cannot really force another to commit a foul (although nothing prevents a boat from willfully sailing into an untenable position). One can, however, use the rules to one's own advantage. That's why I originally began to study the rules (not because I enjoy protest hearings).

If you work out rule scenarios ahead of time, and learn to recognize them about to happen on the water, then you can often maneuver into a controlling position. I've won many races by doing exactly that.

I occasionally toy with the idea of writing a book called "how to use the rules to your advantage". I don't know what I would say, but I think the title alone would make it sell

Regards,
Eric

Well said Eric, we have a culture of not protesting where I sail which is fair enough as long as everyone is happy, after rereading the rules it appears you don't have to take your penalty on the water if you don't want to, unless someone protests you there is no penalty, then you take your chances in the room. We had a race last year where 180 of the 210 trailerable boats missed a mark by 2km, just followed like sheep above it, it took a lot of work to make the protest work for the few beachcats that did round the mark but none of the other fleets had their protests upheld due to not filing a viable protest they just grizzled but did nothing

Take a look at the "Basic Principle of Sportsmanship and the Rules", which states: "Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire".

If a boat breaks a rule, she is expected to take a penalty whether another boat protests or not. Protest Committee is the arbiter of the rules, not the enforcer.

Regards,
Eric

Without a protest hearing, there is no finding of fact, so without getting into that, allow me to propose another "take-away".

If a boat entitled to room or mark-room by rule 18, 19, or 20 breaks rule 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, or 31 (the basic right-of-way rules, acquiring r-o-w, changing course, and touching a mark) while sailing within that room (or mark-room), then she is exonerated under rule 21. If that boat is not entitled to room or mark-room, or if she is sailing beyond the room (or mark-room) to which she is entitled, then she does not receive exoneration.

Therefore, a boat may maneuver within the mark-room she deserves, but may not take more room than that.

I hope that helps,
Eric
US Sailing Judge,
Chair, SAYRA Appeals Committee

THIS.

Too many sailors [in my opinion] know they've fouled someone but don't do turns unless PRTOESTED.

So to encourage better sportmanship, I propose the ALS Challenge here within the forum and on the water:

Always Live (by) Sportmanship.

Govern yourself and don't be afraid to take someone to "the room".

tback

Spot on, we probably just need to take a couple to the room here to get it sorted

The picture distorts the distance. I was the boat with the smoke colored sails coming in with a pretty good view of what was happening. All the port boats had understood the mark and were coming in dead down wind. The 16 was coming in hot on starboard. We slowed down seeing that this was going to be ugly and figured they would all be past the mark by the time we got there. It looked like the H16 was within the 3 boat length circle when he jibed. With the wall of boat coming at him it appeared that he jibed early to avoid mayhem. Being that everyone was going dead down wind the only safe out for the F16 was to go inside the mark douse the come back to round. I don't think he could have gone deeper without jibing. With the surf and everyone doing dead down wind none of the boats had any real maneuvering room.
Think about how ugly it would have gotten if the H16 had decided to not jibe early and pressed starboard tack another 20 feet(where he should have jibbed for a proper rounding). All the port tack boats would have had to jib to avoid.

certainly that (H16 holding starboard gybe longer) would have caused mass chaos amongst the downwind boats. But would have made for dang good TV to armchair sailors...

From the little bit of umpiring I've done, I fully agree that the viewing angle is the absolute worst place to be to determine the zone.

Assuming the H16 was in the zone, he did nothing wrong (other than maybe gybed too soon; or went too far with his gybe, but one could argue that the passing boat did not keep clear).

Assuming that the H16 was outside of the zone, he gybed in a bad place, right in front of the other boats.

Coming into a mark on port is a risky move, especially in a tight group. If the H16 stayed on starboard, as he had every right to do, the port boats have to avoid. That is 100% on them, not the starboard boat. Of course, without mark room involved, you can't just gybe in front of anyone. With mark room involved, you're expected to sail around the mark as Eric mentioned, so a gybe in that area would be expected.

Mike

I thought we concluded that rule 16 was violated if he was outside the zone.

http://youtu.be/KWOKxaKi0sA

Bump the link in case you all, like me, are tired of having to go back to page one to re-look at the video.

Philip, I agree, is that not what I said (without the rule reference)?

Mike