Reefer Madness

(This is a continuation of of a hijacked thread that wandered into the topic of reefing.)

I'd like an extensive discussion on reefing. I don't think you read much about it on this web site, because this site is usually concerned about how to go fast, how to win regattas, and how to modify your boat to go fast and win regattas. Reefing doesn't usually fit that formula.

Let's answer some basic questions, then see where the discussuon goes.

How do you reef?
What knots do you tie off sails with?
How do you fold or tuck the excess sail, as not to damage it and to have it look tidy?
What do you do with the battens?
How do you downhaul a reefed sail?
Can you reef a sail without reef points and associated hardware?
Can you think of more basic questions about reefing?

This is a modern picture and there are reef points.
For this boat; question 1: After you set the reefing halyard lock, down haul thru the front reef point. bowline to the aft reef point with the outhaul line. Roll up the loose part of the sail with the batten in and run 1 continuous line thru all the reef points but only tied at the ends with half hitches. Don't point load the middle reef points. Shock cord also will work to keep the extra sail cloth rolled up. Down haul and out haul normally.
Also they reefed in the extreme sailing series at Cardif last week but the wind died after they reefed. The x 40s reef when mandated by the RC.

The Watertribe events require the ability to reduce sail. Some multihull teams have come up with a halyard extension that they would shackle to the head of the sail and connect that to the existing halyard ring. The sail would be rehoisted and the ring hooked like normal. The sail has a series of grommets matching that height difference so the sail can be lashed to the boom...and a large eye at the clew for the mainsheet attachement.

This does, however, require that the sail be completely lowered in order to attach the halyard extension.

I had a halyard extension fabricated out of alum flat bar, with a fork that slips over the head of the mainsail and is secured with a clevis pin, and a hole in the other end that the hlyd ring attaches to. This keeps the ring in the correct orientation to the main, to allow easy disengagement from the hook when lowering the mainsail.

The rolling and lashing of the excess sailcloth is tough to do cleanly, and it strikes me as mildly damaging to the sail, particularly laminate sailcloths. But unavoidable I guess, and the safety offered by the ability to reef is very valuable on large bodies of water. Downhaul system might need to be modified to attach to the new tack in a fashion that allows it to pull fairly directly.

The sail definitely needs to be modified to include new reinforced tack and clew grommets, as well as 2 or 3 grommets installed to allow a line(s) to be used to secure the excess material. The batten(s) will be parallel to the boom, so not a problem.

Having to drop the main to reef is problematic, considering the conditions you'll be in when it's needed. Keeping the main onboard while keeping the boat into the wind on a lumpy sea in a blow, is a challenge. As is getting it up again, and tidying up, still keeping the bows windward. Would be helpful if you could get to a lee shore to do all this, but that's not often an option.

So the system needs to be thought out, and tested before you need it. It's unlikely you're going to get a really good sail shape reefed, but the substantially reduced sail area is more of a safety feature than a performance item.

If you're looking high wind performance, consider having one built specifically for your boat/mast. I know Jay Glaser has experience with this, and I imagine most of the multihull sailmakers do too. But this option doesn't help you if you're caught out in increasing breeze with your full size main.

Dave

Hey Jeff! Where is Big Marine Lake? I get back to MN most summers, I spend a week or so on Lake Minnetonka, and try to get a sail in with the Fleet 444 guys who often sail on Lake Pepin.

I had a halyard extension fabricated out of alum flat bar, with a fork that slips over the head of the mainsail and is secured with a clevis pin, and a hole in the other end that the hlyd ring attaches to. This keeps the ring in the correct orientation to the main, to allow easy disengagement from the hook when lowering the mainsail.

The rolling and lashing of the excess sailcloth is tough to do cleanly, and it strikes me as mildly damaging to the sail, particularly laminate sailcloths. But unavoidable I guess, and the safety offered by the ability to reef is very valuable on large bodies of water. Downhaul system might need to be modified to attach to the new tack in a fashion that allows it to pull fairly directly.

The sail definitely needs to be modified to include new reinforced tack and clew grommets, as well as 2 or 3 grommets installed to allow a line(s) to be used to secure the excess material. The batten(s) will be parallel to the boom, so not a problem.

Having to drop the main to reef is problematic, considering the conditions you'll be in when it's needed. Keeping the main onboard while keeping the boat into the wind on a lumpy sea in a blow, is a challenge. As is getting it up again, and tidying up, still keeping the bows windward. Would be helpful if you could get to a lee shore to do all this, but that's not often an option.

So the system needs to be thought out, and tested before you need it. It's unlikely you're going to get a really good sail shape reefed, but the substantially reduced sail area is more of a safety feature than a performance item.

If you're looking high wind performance, consider having one built specifically for your boat/mast. I know Jay Glaser has experience with this, and I imagine most of the multihull sailmakers do too. But this option doesn't help you if you're caught out in increasing breeze with your full size main.

Dave

could you add a second halyard "hook" a bit down the mast and just hook the ring to that when reefing?

I'm thinking that if you're reducing sail due to conditions, you probably aren't as concerned about the perfect sail shape and therefore won't be using your 60:1 downhaul on maximum, but you do need some ability to keep the sail relatively flat.

I presume the hook won't rub the sail when not in use as the mast rotates enough to keep it off the laminate?

Can you roll the foot of the sail around the boom and reattach the mainsheet to keep the extra material out of the way? I would guess unless your roach is wider than the foot, you could get away with it...

All of this would take a little skill on the water, but you're supposed to reef early anyway. If you're expecting 30+, it'd probably be too late.

How about righting a boat that flips with a reefed main. Would it be more likely to go turtle without the sail at the top of the mast?

Gary Friesen had this all worked out for his Catalina crossings. A special and longer metal fitting for hooking the sail. Reefing points in the sail, new downhaul fitting and hey presto. All this is possibly available in the archives of the beachcats maillist?

Gary also prototyped and sold a special "walk the plank" righting device.

If we are going to sail upwind with a reefed mainail, the shape will be less than optimal due to the changed luff curve.

my friend used a "larger than beachcat sized" clutch that he could engage to hold his halyard in a reefed height and he had reef holes incorporated in his new mainsail.

PS his goal was to be able to handle florida summer pop up storms with his wife and young daughter onboard to get back to beach. I know he tested it but don't think he ever "needed it".

I think he is racing sunday at the Union Regatta on our causeway and will try to get pics if i remember/see him on the beach prior to the start of the race

Dave,

Big Marine Lake is located in northeast Washington County.

There used to be an annual official Hobie regatta on the lake, until Ray Richardson sold his property into the Regional Park. Ray and Ray's neighbor let the regatta operate from their properties. (That regatta then moved to Green Lake, near Spicer.) Those were the days when Hobie sails were all sorts of colors. The lake looked like it was invaded by giant colorful butterflies. -Those are long gone days, now. Oh well...

In theory, I like the idea of reefing my Hobie 16. My old boats have the reef points on the sails and the reef slugs on the halyard. -But I worry about the risk of damage to the sails.

To refresh my concerns, I dug out my old Hobie 16 Assembly Manual (Part No. 2345-000 Revised 7-80, copyright December 1980, Price $4.00) This is a seperate manual, not the assembly manual that comes with the boat. On pages 24, & 25, it shows some nice pictures on reefing. But the reefing instructions still leave me with concerns about risk to the mainsail. Since I live on a lake, its just easier for me to wait for a less windy day.

But still, I am curious about reefing. If I ever get an extra, old blown out sail, I would then try it. It then would be good to have an extra boom for that extra sail. But with all this extra stuff, it might be more practical to have a sailmaker modify the sail to the size of a reefed sail, and use it as a storm sail. The storm sail would have continous attachment to the boom, instead of being held at just four reef points.

It may be that, on a Hobie 16, the reef points are about as useable as the boom vang. -They are good conversation pieces, while drinking beer.

Sure, when I'm windsurfing at sea above 30 kts, I've met the last 10 years more and more sailing yachts. Reefed mainsails, stormjibs, etc.
Look at the round the world races.The skippers are looking and waiting for stormy winds!

On a windsurfboard it's easy: you just have to pick the right sailsize. Down to 3.2/3.5 in the second half of 40+ kts. So, why shouldn't you do that on a beachcat???


I can only speak for sailing on the North Sea and there the limiting factor for 30+ is normally not the wind but the waves and the break!

With a beachcat you cannot pass a break anymore with breaking waves above 3 m. and a relative distance of less then 10 m.
On my sailing spot you have very shallow waters and even a few miles outside, the waves can still break in high winds.

That's the disadvantage of a sand-shore break versus a reef-break.

Last: when the wind is reaching 30+,the cat is often becoming very awkward to control on the beach. It starts to bounch, sailing on the sand, sometimes capsizing on shore. The sails are shaking and jerking, etc.

I have at least two old mainsails, but I never felt the urge of downsizing them to stormsails.
But I certainly would have, if my sailing spots where inshore water.

Back in the day, did anyone ever win a major Hobie race with a reefed sail?

Mike

No.

Did anyone ever win a "minor" Hobie race with a reefed sail?

While a reefed sail may give you an advantage upwind, it is almost always a detriment downwind. In a race where there is a combination of both, the result is almost always a draw.

That's one of the reasons that Hobie Cat eliminated the reef points on North American boats when they introduced the Comptip 30 years ago.

J.P.,
Since you are still thinking about this, i have a couple more pieces of info since i have reefed many H16s.
I can't remember what the manual says so i am wondering why you need 2 booms. The gooseneck shackle should attach to the new tack (forward reef point), The outhaul attaches to the new clew, but you should also tie a short line thru the clew around the boom to handle the mainsheet pressure. It becomes a loose footed sail. The other grommets are there to keep the excess sail from flapping around only.
Reefing a H16 is meant to be done on the beach.
A H14 sail is almost the same size as a reefed 16 sail and we used to just do that at the rental.
There was a heat at the H16 worlds in Corpus Christi in the 70s where a team reefed and won a heat. Hobie Sr. told me it was the only major 16 heat ever won while reefed. i wasn't there but have heard it was one rough event.
Most small boat sailors just figure out ways of dealing with the extra power of high wind, or they have a wind limit. As stated above the luff curve of the reefed sail doesn't match the new mast curve so sail shape suffers.
One thing to do is roll up the jib if you have like a TheMightyHobie18, or bring 3 people.

Thanks guys. By "race" I did indeed mean a single race/heat, not a regatta. It's been so long since that was an option, I'm sort of surprised anyone remembers, although I suppose if you lost to a reefed sail, that's something you'd never forget!

I wonder why they invested the money to include the option in the first place?

Mike

Northsea.junkie:

when you select the sail of today for the windsurfer, you probably have several sails and mast combos. At least I did when I windsurfed to flatten the sail and make the top twist off in the gusts. Will get kind of expensive and cumbersome to have several mast/sail combos on a cat


I have learnt to live with the fact that some days are windsurfer days, others are for beachcat sailing. Some days are even best spent in front of the fireplace with chocklate and a book. Yesterday was the perfect day to go kayaking as the sun was blazing and no wind whatsoever.

You also don't quite have the ability to actively tune a sail while underway on a windsurfer like you do on a beach cat. This is another reason that the windsurfers carry different sail and mast combos.

Okay, what I ment to say was that for me, at sea with on-shore or cross-onshore winds above +30kts, catsailing is almost impossible.
But on inshore water (or off-shore wind at sea) there should be possibilities to go further then 30 kts.

Because, comparing to windsurf sailing, the windspan of a catsail is much larger. I mean, I can use my one catsail from 10 kts to 30 kts.
For that same range there are at least 4 or 5 surfsails.

So, you possibly could use in catsailing just one smaller sail (like in the old days of windsurfing with a 4.7). And that sail you hoist up on the beach when needed. And it has of course the right luffcurve for your mast. Simply a sailchange onshore.

On a windy day you have this extra smaller sail with you in the car or even on your tramp. And we catsailors can always go ashore very easy!

Writing this down, I realise that I could do this for myself also. A smaller sail which I will hoist at say +25 kts., or even less if the wind is going to increase.

Thanks guys

30kts is a fukton of wind. Maybe for someone who is paid to sail it's a worthwhile endeavor. For me it means breaking stuff, capsizing multiple times in a short amount of time, and questioning why I'm out there. If I'm not having fun, which to me survival mode isn't, there's no reason to be out there.

When it's blowing above about 20kts. here on my lake, I'll put my Hobie 14 sail on my Prindle 18. The mast has a halyard cleat at the base, so I tie off the halyard there, the top of the sail is about 3' short of the mast head/hook. I can still downhaul it pretty flat. I also have a rolling jib on the Prindle 18, so I can use it downwind, and roll it up for upwind, if it's too windy. I'm almost always sailing it solo, so that's nice to have. Works great up to about 30kts. but that's on a flat water inland lake.

I wouldn't want to be out in the big ocean on a small cat in 30kts, even with a reefed sail, due to the wave action. Going downwind in those will flip you without any sail up at all!

I agree with Karl's sentiments above.

What is the upper wind limit for the Olympic classes in an Olympic regatta? I think they have one, right? Is it about 25, or less?

And what about the A cats?

Even the huge AC72's had an upper wind limit, I guess that's why we don't really need reefing at most regattas?

But Karl,

That is the point. When Dave Dahl, the ever-wrong weatherman predicts 5 to 15, and we actually get 15 to 25 with peak gusts of 30, is there a way to sail and still have fun?

I just HATE IT when you put up the sails and within 30 minutes, the gusts keep building to the point you just want to get back to shore safely and call it a day.

So far nobody's experience seems to support reefing as the answer. I didn't think of trying a H14 sail, but wouldn't it be a wonderful coincidence if the H14 sail size matched perfectly with the reefing slug on the H16 halyard ? Does it? Any two-boat owner out there willing to give it a try?

Jolly Roger,

The manual said nothing about a second boom, that was my thinking. I figured that if a got a 2nd beat-up sail just for reefing, I could tie it to the extra boom once, then it would be ready for a quick change.

It helps to be young for the 30knt pus stuff, and the water sort of flat. Other wise a 4.2-4.0 on a wave board would be the ticket even in big surf.
or some sort of ocean going boat double reefed with a 90 percent jib or something like that.
A 14 main is just a hair shorter than a reefed 16 main. It worked for us since you can still downhaul it ok. I can't imagine that the sizes have changed since the 80's when we used to rig one of the 16s with the 14 sail.

We're all just getting soft. There are places in the world where the wind blows over 25 just about every day, and people sail cats. They tend to do well at Worlds.

I used to enjoy heavy air on my H16, then got to the point that I wouldn't rig the boat if it was blowing 20 in the morning. I still love big air on the Wave, though.

Mike

Many moons ago I think Randy Smyth won a race or two at Tradewinds using his 18HT with a reefed mainsail.

I believe that was shortly before he ripped the entire transom off one hull. He may have won that race, too (Starting to sound like Chuck Norris or Kenny Pierce sayings...)

If memory serves it was blowing steady high 20's with gusts into mid 30's (mph). Blackwater sound was relatively protected, but still had steep chop.

And it was about 40F that day... in Key Largo...

Could be that not everyone that bought one raced. Hobie also offered a roller furling jib for the 16. Racing is not the only reason to own a boat.

Gasp! Perish the thought

By the way, Jake, I may have found a new path around Cape Romano for your EC next year. Let me see if I can download the track from Saturday. It's skinny, but I never touched with the board 1/2 way down (maybe 3' draft?)

Would save you from going all the way out to the light before cutting east.

of course, a good storm will move all that sand anyway...

Good point. I forgot...

Mike

HA Ha Ha !!!
The last Hobie race i witnessed at Lake Mohave ; maybe 50+
cats and it was blowing 30+ on the water ...

Almost Everyone sat on shore with there cats rigged , less
there sails, and on there beach-wheels.

YEP -- they all watched me & a buddy of mine, while we were on our kite boards.
Only person out with a cat, was a rather
talented Dude, with his Daughter on a Hobie-18 ; they were
having an Absolute BLAST !!!

After witnessing that ; I Never had any desire to go
racing with the Hobie crowd (.)

SO to answer your question : " did anyone ever win a major Hobie race with a reefed sail"?

That would be probably NO, because the field would be Too
scared to go sailing in a 30+ ; so they would Call the race!
HAHA !!!

====================================================

On our Hobie 20 , we made an extension for the halyard, at
the top of the reefed Main ; that way we could still use the
down-hull.The problem with that system was that it took
too long to reef the sail in the middle of the lake.

I think a rolling boom is a better way to go ; much Faster
way to reduce sail aria when Ya see the wind-lines marching
towards you ? In higher winds ; i kinda Want the sail to
have less camber anyway.

Getting rid of the jib is Fast ; just as fast as deploying
it, with a furling mechanism !

One other thing :
In High winds, the prudent skipper,will NOT be Maxing out his
boat, (it's the entire reason to get rid of sail aria) in
the first place ; so flipping your cat is actually Harder
with the lowered moment of Power, on your mast.

Bille

I was there, too. That would have been Rex Mitchell - and he admitted afterward it was one of the stupidest things he had ever done. Nearly broke his boat - and his daughter.


We weren't scared - neither the Hobie 18s nor the Hobie 17s that were there have any provision for reefing. We had just finished a day of five races in 20+ kts and we were beat. There were multiple collisions in the 18s and one crew had to be evacuated to Las Vegas for a concussion.

Personally, I needed to win four races in order to get from 2nd to 1st in the 17s that last day, and I really couldn't see myself (or my boat) making it through 4 races in 30+ kt winds (with gusts into the 40s). The race committee didn't think they would survive either, so they called it off.

This isn't a game of "who's got the biggest d**k" - it's supposed to be fun - and it's not fun over 25 kts steady. You can do your little superiority dance all you want, but I got my boat back in one piece from that event, and I couldn't care less what you were doing that day. I was having more fun on shore than I would have on the water, and that's what matters to me.

my furler is not easy to use in heavy air and more often than not does not furl the sail well ( creates a terrible hourglass shape that is flogging like crazy)

One persons fun is another persons nightmare.

Sailing above 25 kts steady is definitly fun and that has nothing to do with your Dxxx size! Mine is normal by the way.

Being a windsurfer of the first hour, I feel very at-home if the wind is really blowing and there are only a few guys left.
Adapting your sail to a very small and handy size and still feeling this enormous power in your sail, gives a thrilling sensation during sailing.

You see that same feeling reviving again in the kite scene. They go with 5 meter kites. That look like child kites, tiny and fragile.
And they all return from the water with a very big smile on their face!!!!!

PU used to run NAs with winds into the high 20s / low 30s. We were all younger and crazier then, and would go out as long as the RC was willing to run races.

Even on H16s, on Rehoboth Bay (Dewey Beach, DE) with its flat water, 1/3 of the fleet was ashore by the end of the first race. By the time the later races were running, only about 1/3 of the fleet was still racing. At one start, 1/3 of the boats on the water flipped at the start. Those ashore were there because they were either smart, tired, capsized and/or had broken boats. We had less wind, but big waves last year in Galveston, and lots of carnage.

When cats collide at "survival" speed on the water, bad things happen, and many times, the hulls aren't repairable. To say nothing of the people.

Again, I think there is some aspect of it that we're getting older, but we also don't get these conditions often enough to train for it. Either way, the result is that it's unsafe and not fun for most of the fleet in those conditions.

Mike

Quite a few years back, one day of Juana's saw very few boats sail. I mostly remember H17s sailing (maybe Kevin Smith, Brian Lambert and some others), but not many. Pretty much a straight shot off the beach through the starting line, down to Pensacola and back through the finish line and straight to the beach. No one left the beach until the start gun went off.

I'll start with the LAST part :

** This is a Thread about Reefing a catamaran ; so did it EVER
even cross your mind , that maybe, just Maybe, Ya would
have had FUN, if you had reefed the sails on your cat, to
match the power of the wind that day ????

I've bin out at Mohave on the Hobie-20, in winds in excess of
35 mph ; and i am NOT anywhere NEAR as good a sailor as You.

Given the chance to do it over ; i'd make the main-sail reefable
to the size of a Hobie 14, (instead of the 16 we could reduce to).

Also , I would go with a smaller jib.



A reefable sail is WAY safer to to be out on a lake with ;
when the lake is ((KNOWN)) to fluctuate in wind-speed from
15-mph to as much as 35-mph in the same afternoon.

The concussion you mentioned ; that Probably wouldn't have
happened if the sails weren't over-powered at the time of the
incident.
WERE THEY WEARING HELMETS AT THE TIME ?



Then FIX it , and it Will be Fun !

What can i say ; go in Big-Wind, with crappy equipment, (what do Ya expect) ?
Our furler worked just Fine !!

We Never flipped that Hobie-20 in big wind ; only mistake
we made was using an Old sail to sew reefing points in.
We blew that sail up ; had to return from 9-mile with
our jib.

Bille

Mine are Also normal size. These guys just don't get it ; that
using the correct equipment to do a job, (is Paramount) !!!

Wish you didn't live so far away, Mr northsea junkie . (sigh)

Bille

define "normal"

Trident shape?

Ya got me ; i keep forgetting that i lost both legs in a hang gliding crash.

How about if i just say that it is Safer to have the ability
to reef your sails ; if a guy actually does need it from time
to time ?

Bille

I use new harken furlers (top and bottom) with the highload turlon bearings. - nothing to fix, not crap equipment

I sail solo 80% of the time so having the luxury of holding the tiller and trying to furl a jib on the fly in 30knots is not just a case of "fix it"

I have sailed in over 40. not my idea of fun. Even over 20 is more than i prefer (but get caught in 25's several times a year).

I think knowing how to depower and get back to the beach safe is much more "fun" than being out in heavy air, getting a face full of water and increasing my risk of breaking a boat or person.

I have jumped on many other boats in high wind, but i find that less and less appealing as i get older.

Have you seen this video before?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtWoxDXUmko
the title says they are sailing in 60 knts., but it looks about like a strong day at Dougs beach in the Gorge. I used a 3.5meter sail there once and it was about right.

Well, you can always heave-to!

A sailing manouevre which I didn't hear mentioning so far in this discussion. Very normal in heavy weather yachtsailing.

Try next time in 25+ kts after your first run outside, to jibe. Because at that time your are anyway full of adrenaline and all your muscles are tensioned and you are at the top of your nerves. So a jibe in heavy wind seems not too much to add to all your misery at that moment. Take your time when running the cat full ahead of the wind. Take care of the boom and try to slow down the travellercar. Turn into the wind.

And then...........do nothing. Leave the jib on the wrong side and let the main completely free open, let the tiller go. You will be amazed with the repose and the silentness of that situation. You are in heavy wind but everything is quiet; cat is moving slowly windwards. All is in control. Sails are not slapping. You can stand up, walk over your tramp, do a little dance, sew the jib if you want. And rest!

Then start thinking of how to spill a little more wind when sailing again. On your way back from the run; if you are really out of control, let the jib simply on the wrong side. By this little trick you can manage another 10 kts extra.

IF I wanted to sail in heavy air I would heave-to if/as needed, but since i prefer not to sail in heavy air.... and IF i sailed in heavy air, i wouldn't have a jib out

Try that in a Hobie 16 in anything over 20 kts and let me know how it works for you. Or a boat with a self-tacking jib (F18) that can't be weather sheeted.

Yeah, it works great for monohulls that don't have fully-battened sails. Catamarans, not so much.

I've sailed on H16's, but never done this particular heaving to. Nor with a self tacking jib (ofcourse).

Works fine for my cat and for that reason on any Prindle. Guess that same implies for Nacra's.

Curious though if it works for other members on their cats. I always thought this would work for anybody.

Northsea, Heaving to didn't quite work on my Nacra 5.2 out of the box. It would fall off, pick up speed, head up, tack and fall off, repeatedly.

I added a shock-cord with two plastic hooks along the back beam (tramp lacing actually). I use the hook to stabilize the rudders gently against the transoms. Gives me time to eat, drink and think (if applicable ;-)
My impression is that the boat sort of slowly [moves] sideways doing this "crabbing".

Dennis, heaving to is by nature a balanced situation for your cat. So yes, sometimes you have to play a little with the main and/or the rudders (and fix them) to arrive to that balance.

Perhaps I'm very lucky to have made a cat which is very balanced by itself.

By the way the fully battening of a catsail is in my opinion not an issue in heaving-to.

Glad to hear that. I always had trouble getting my 5.2 to heave to but I just thought it was me not getting things balanced. It worked well on my old Apollo 16 (monohull dingy).

OK -- then you need to get the pressure off your sails.

Bring her into Irons ; then toss the sea-anchor, and lift
your rudders so she doesn't turn while going backwards.

You will have a much easier time of it now.

For you being caught in a 25 , "several times a year" as you
say, ; i would Drop the Main completely, and sail your joy
back to safe harbor , with just the jib.

Have you ever sailed with just your jib ? You should learn
how easy it is in sub-20 some day ; it's quite pleasant !!
You'll need a bit of energy ; or Ya get bored rather Easy .

The boat will be unbalanced, and need Lots of rudder ; but
since there are Way fewer blocks on the jib sheet, she reacts
a LOT faster when Ya go to depower,
(faster than sheeting out the Main) !!

I'm betting that you will NOT be in a great hurry to return
to shore ; once Ya find out just How easy it is to sail with
just your jib ? !!

I wouldn't sail Mohave , without a Good plan to deal with the
15 to 30-mph winds that are normal on that lake. We get a nice 15
to start ; then it's ON. It will fluctuate like that,as many
as 3 to 5 times a day.


Bille

BTW
This is all stuff i taught on 21 ft columbia sailboats , at
the Harry Lundeberg school of seamanship, in Piney point Md ,in the early 70's.

Or just don't go out in heavy air


So your suggesting when a storm pops up i try and drop and secure my main on my catamaran while on the fly? I don't think that is the answer for me. I can sail my cat in 25 - 30 without doing that.


Yes



Here in the Central Fl / Gulf of Mexico we get all ranges of weather. It's typical for the summer days to start out light, build all day and then have late afternoon thunderstorms (although this year has been atypical) - we have plans/options.

You seem to be trying very hard to convince me that sailing in heavy air is the most fun and I should be doing it. I am spoiled and get to sail year round, 3 days a week .... I have learned what i find fun and what i don't.... and sailing in heavy air / rough seas is not fun to me....

YMMV

I agree that heavy air sailing isn't in my definition of "fun" (Karl's comments regarding damage, fatigue, etc), and I am quite spoiled that I can pretty much pick any weekend to sail here so if the forecast is anything less than ideal I can forego the day's sailing plan.

BUT, heavy air sailing is something to be familiar with, as I I'm certain most folks have been caught out on the water when things didn't turn out as planned (too long sailing before weather moves in, pop-up storms, etc).

Having options (like reefing, jib-only sailing, etc) and knowing how/when to use them greatly increases a sailor's overall safety.

Perhaps that could be considered "enjoying" since I'd be somewhat competent in those "less than ideal" conditions, and can set the boat up to be comfortable/seakindly?

Racing is not usually "survival sailing", but getting back to the beach can be.

Having a fast boat also allows you to sail around/outrun certain conditions (like pop-up storm) which can be seen as increasing safety, too.

Well, not having "fun", feeling too spoiled for heavy weather, exaggerating the risks, raising the old age. I don't buy it guys.

It all has to do with simply not feeling secure (enough) in the conditions where reefing should be practical.

This is exactly the reason why I presented in this thread a learning scenario with a heavy weather jibe ending in a heave to condition.
Do it and you will feel more secure because you learned to do the impossible followed by the rewarding no-fear situation of the heave-to.

I clicked on this thread, because I'm a 'reefer'- it's not what you think.

It's this kind of reef- in my family room



Now, back to 'sail reefing'

Nice tank!

I've been out in nuclear stuff (30+ with huge ocean waves), and couldn't get my H16 to tack without wanting to go over backwards. So, I prefer to gybe in those conditions. We lie on the tramp with our heads all the way down, and steer through it as slowly as possible. I'm sometimes amazed that the rig is still vertical after that...

Mike

It all has to do with simply not feeling secure (enough) in the conditions where reefing should be practical.

Certainly. And having the boat fitted with "options" (reefing, storm sail, etc) is part of that security.

Still not sure on the "fun" part... Maybe telling the story of how you got through the nuclear conditions is "fun".

It also could be that "heavy air" (over 30 kts) in this area is accompanied by things I don't consider particularly "fun":
- hail
- cold temperatures
- mega-lightning. I think Florida kills more people with lightning than anywhere else?

That last one is key for me personally. When it starts to feel like you're at a Rave party because of all the flashing, and you're sitting next to a 10 meter aluminum stick in the middle of a large body of water, it's hard to feel the "fun".

I think that if it were blowing a nice steady 35 knots in one direction we could all adapt and have a fun fast sail. It's the lulls and gusts along with changing direction that makes most heavy air sailing no fun around here.

That a good video: The sharper the blast, the quicker it'll pass.
I've seen boats destroyed tied down on the beach with bare poles in those conditions. There is no way I would have survived a micro-burst like that out on the water.

Sailing jib only on the i20 or f18 wasn't much fun for me.

I've done jib only on the Viper as well. Lost one of the diamond wires and dropped the main to save the mast. Doesn't go to weather very well.

You should try that with a set of beach wheels tied under the hulls.

wheels help it point better? (jk)

No, they do not.

No, they do not. [/quote]

Don't ask you how you know that, right

I've thought that if caught out in a big FL thunder/lightning storm, I'd drop the main and turtle the boat on purpose, then float on my back between the hulls.

Then after the storm passes, try to figure out how to right the boat...

Anyone got a good technique for righting a turtled cat? (I'm thinking walk out on the bows and wait?)

The thread title should be reefing madness since there was an anti weed psy-op movie all those years ago titled reefer madness.
i qualify as being anyone so here is a comment for Timbo;
It depends on the cat, but if it is small enough you just stand on the bottom of a hull and pull on the righting line with steady pressure until wind can get under the tramp. Pick the right hull to stand on so that the wind can get under the tramp and help you. Otherwise it could be the sterns that you would want to stand on to sink in to get the tramp exposed to the wind, lifting the bows, then rolling over on it's side. The front part of the boat is more buoyant on a lot of the cats so it may be easier to stand on a stern. Steady pressure on a righting line helps quite a bit no matter which way you are trying to pull the boat up.

+1,

I've learned in the years at least a dozen catsailor friends this procedure at sea. A little remark, pick always the off-wind hull to stand on. The sooner the wind will catch the windward hull and help you turning the whole thing on its side.
At sea this often places you also on the " down-wave" side. Then with a lot of luck the next big wave can even push the cat in one second completely up to horizontal!

With modern cats this whole procedure should be easier than in the old days. Standing on the upside sharp hull of a Prindle or a H14/16 is far from easy and you ended up trying to balance on the small flange-rims on the side of the hull. I've seen guys with totally grazed underlegs when they slipped off this rim.

P.S. When practising this, pick deep enough water!!!

Go as far astern as possible, if you are with two, clinch together.

On a H16, all you need to do is sit, not stand, on the leeward stern. This is the only way to do it in rough water. Any attempt to stand will result in getting wet and/ or hurt.

Mike

Fun or NO fun heavy weather sailing is Definitely something
worth learning ; it could save your life one day !!

@ northsea junkie :
Try not to laugh at someone because they don't want to increase
the odds for being a Victim. Problem with some is that by NOT
learning to deal with the stronger stuff ; there actually placing
themselves at Greater risk !!



NO i am NOT !!!

* What i AM saying, is that knowing what to do in stronger wind
is a good back-up plan.

** And second ) 30+ wind on a (4 X 10-mile) lake, is a FAR cry
from what you get in the Central Fl / Gulf of Mexico. You
must think i'm Stupid , by trying to make a comparison ?
Your playing in open water, and I'm playing in a Pond with
a Lot of exits at my disposal !


Bille

The guys in that Hobie race
on Mohave a while back ; they ALL would have bin safer with
the ability to reef there sails , that week .

THIS IS THE "BEST POST EVER" ; with a dude complaining about a
bunch of Over Powered cat sailors in strong winds. He kinda
summed up my argument on WHY it's a good idea to Reef a sail :

Mike, I didn't say it was that easy. Like everyhing mentioned in this thread, it needs practice.
Look below for two sitting sailors in turtle position:




They have the uphaul-line over the wrong bow. It should be just over the middle from the front-beam.

But even then it can be a hell of a job. Look below 4 men on a lake, no wind, flat water:




They also didn't quite understand the trick of pushing only one hull down and let the cat fall on its side.

So, the idea of Timbo: pulling the cat in stormy conditions on purpose in capsize position with the risk of turtle needs a few requirements:
You have to be sure that in case of turtle you can help yourself and you have to be sure the mast is watertight.

Mind you, if you put a ball in the mast (may be only in rough conditions), you don't have all these problems. With a ball in the top you don't come so easy in a turtle position, but if you do, you don't have to do anything.
Cat will right itself to 90 degrees.

dang, Tim. If it's that bad and I know it's coming, I'll lower the mast entirely. Takes about 15 minutes, but again, if it's that bad there is no telling how fast I could really get that thing down...

~ i agree

Forcing a boat to turtle when it's windier than hell is harder than you'd think. A few years ago I was caught in a storm where it was reported to be blowing 60mph, (I don't think it was over 40 where we were though), and I tried to turtle the boat to keep the sails from flogging and lower our profile because there was lightning about. I couldn't get it to go, but it was basically in position, so to speak, to be righted. We were drifting very quickly. I'm actually kinda surprised it didn't self right. I've had a H16 do that on me in big wind.

Dive in the water and swimm to the top of the mast. Turn it with the cat completely leeward. Then push the masttop down under you, stand on it in the water. With a stormy wind drifting you leeward, the cat will push itself turtle.

As part of learning about my new boat, a Viper F16, and how it behaves in various configurations, I tried the "jib only" thing in light air this weekend. The lee helm was pretty much unmanageable and even a beam reach was barely doable. I had a similar experience when caught in a thunderstorm many years ago on an 18' P-Cat on Fern Ridge Reservoir near Eugene, OR. I dropped the main to reduce sail, but then could make no headway to windward, and the lee helm was wicked. I ended up going with the wind and beaching on the side of the lake opposite of where I really wanted to be and waiting it out. Fortunately, it was a friendly sand beach and not a pile of big rocks. If you want to reduce sail heading downwind, jib-only is an option. Going to weather, forget it. I've also beached a Hobie 18 downwind (actually the beach I wanted to go to this time) with the main down and the jib furled. It was surprisingly fast in this configuration! I have no idea how strong the wind was, but it was way too much.

Anyway, good discussion. I agree that it's good to know what your options are when you get caught in more wind than you really want to be out in.

Ok, well...with a boat on it's side in a ripping wind, there's no way you are swimming out to the end of the mast on purpose. I've been in situations where I was lucky to just be able to stay with the boat...even with a hand hold on trampoline lacing, the boat was moving so fast on it's side I couldn't climb aboard without help. This was in about 30+. There would be no way I could swim out to the end of the mast and certainly no way I could swim the boat into a mast-downwind orientation. Auto-righting was a definite possibility and we were rushing to try and get into a righting position quickly so we would be ready in any case.

Auto-righting is scary. I take that as a direct statement from the boat that she's had enough and wants me to take her to the beach immediately.

Mike

Bingo. I ain't leaving my happy place on the low hull while its on its side for nothing. Sitting there sucks, swimming and watching your boat drift away sucks much more.

When I capsize, I'm used to dive and swim to the masttop. That's necessary because I have a net-tramp which catches no wind. So my capsized cat has no tendency to float with weight displacement to the correct uprighting position.
So I nearly always have to swim the mast to that position. And then I have to go back to my lower hull as quick as possible before it changes its position to the wind.

I do that always by using the shroud of the lower hull .Passing my hands quickly.(with gloves on!).


Ofcourse I wonder what I would do in the hypothetical situation (I was never there) that I wanted a cat to turtle because of frightening circumstances (Like approaching lightning with strokes nearby in the water, two times auto-uprighting immediately followed by flip to the other side, couldn't hold myself to the capsized cat, etc)

So, okay my proposal to swim dive in that situation was a bit the talk of a windsurfer who is used to lose his board/sail in high waves. But with my experience using the cat shroud, I would certainly use this to go to the masttop. But only if that seemed to be the best and absolute necessary solution for my emergency situation.

That would be (and should be) a hard decision.

It would - and it is. I forgot you have that open mesh trampoline. It's probably possible to flip the boat in a controlled manner so that the mast is downwind on the flip. That should make it go turtle. But! should you miss and the boat spin around due to the drag of the sails in the water, getting it turtled after that point may be impossible without righting and trying it again.

A well sealed mast will want to pop up and eventually get the boat on its side...but, I would also be concerned that I'm asking a lot of the sealant at the top of the mast that is plunged 32 feet below the surface for any extended period. I would be afraid that it would eventually leak and then I might have an impossible time trying to right the boat afterwards. I still think your best bet is to try and get the mainsail down and controlled when it's just crazy windy. It's definitely not easy, though.

I have been in my share of lightning storms out on the water.

scary chit for sure but dumping the main, flipping the boat and getting in the water with lightning all around does not seem like a good decision to me.

I would rather take my chances on the boat, avoid touching any metal, and hope that if my mast gets hit, i am not in a puddle of water that will conduct the charge through me.

several years ago we had the topic "if anyone has first hand knowledge of someone beinghit by lightning" many people had stories of cats on anchor, on land and in a marina getting hit but almost none of a boat underway (not saying it's not possible) but rare

Concerning the video Ronald posted of the gang o people failing to right that topcat?...
Surely that mast is full of water.
My experience with jib only on a TheMightyHobie18 is that the boat did sail to windward, all 3 times. None of them by choice.
The jib was a little smaller than stock however.(an old school T jib)

Options for each type boat, AND wind conditions !!

The Hobie-20 , was efficient enough to actually do a TACK,
if everything was done Perfect. The day we practiced
jib-only, the wind was blowing 28 to 35mph. We got a full tack about
once in every 4 tries ; that told us to rely on a JIBE if
we needed to reverse direction.
We never practiced jib only in light wind on the hobie-20, but
i imagine it would handle quite differently; just like a larger
rudder would make your cat handle differently.

Bille

can you sail upwind jib only?

I have sailed home from camping jib only down wind but i haven't seen anyone able to make any real ground upwind - jib only.

well 2 months later and i purchased a 6.0 that was rebuilt with a reefing main

last week i sailed it solo in 20-25 mph, reefed and it was a blast
handled very well, no excessive weatherhelm nor deadly leehelm

The how:
sail is lowered off the hook at the head of mast and the ring is is lowered about 4' (size of bottom sail panel).

There is a very large spin lock in the base of the mast track to lock the main halyard (that is now off the hook)

reef points in the luff (new downhaul), and across the sail and leach (new clew)

another slug in the masttrack at the bottom of new foot

the sail has 2 reef patches sewn into so line/bungee can be used to roll up extra sail - which lays on the side of boom

NICE ;
Really Glad Ya enjoyed that !!!!

Question for my Hobie 21se :

I wanna get rid of the hook and ring, at the head of
mast and delete the down-haul below the boom. I think
a roller boom on the foot of the Main, and winch for
the halyard , will be faster way to reduce sail size, with
way more options for size.

Will i need a larger pulley at the top of my mast; and how
big a winch,(along with what gearing) will i need to tighten
my new and stronger main-sail halyard ?

Bille

Bille, there are some structural considerations with going to a tensioned halyard setup too. Going to this setup will double the compression on the mast over the typical ring setup. I can't say whether or not this will be a problem but it will probably mean you at least need to do something to beef up the pulley setup at the top of the mast.

"double the compression on the mast"
Are you sure about that?
i'm thinking that the down haul pressure on the mast will stay the same no matter how you hold the head of the sail at the top of the mast.
My dad's Shark had a small wire winch at the base of the mast to raise the sail and hold it up.
The Super Cat 20 had a wire halyard with loops swaged into it and a hook at the bottom of the mast. The second loop was to reef.
You need a beefy, well attached mast head fitting that can support full downhaul pressure and a halyard with minimum stretch. Many mast head turning blocks are only designed to take the pressure of pulling the sail up and could break from 8:1 downhaul pressure since normally, the halyard lock takes over once the sail is up.

+1 I know the mast cap which held the halyard on my N20 was somewhat flimsy and most likely wouldn't hold up to the kind of force needed to keep the cunningham tight..

Absolutely sure.

Look at the mast as a complete system and tension the luff of the sail with it connected at the bottom of the mast and hooked at the top. That's one line of force....let's say 200lbs. Now, don't hook the top of the sail at the top of the mast and run a tensioned halyard back down the mast to somewhere at it's base. That's TWO lines of force that the mast now needs to resist....double that 200 lbs and the mast now has 400 lbs of pressure on it. It's just like any purchase system - but in this case, you aren't getting any more purchase on the sail because it's directly part of the single line of force.

It's the whole reason why we live with the hooks at the top of our masts. The loads are less and the masts can be lighter.

GLAD i Asked ; i better just leave that part of the system alone.

I'll just add an extension on the hook, at the top of the mast
for reefing, (like we did on the H-20).

Thanks : Bille

i am pretty sure that i had a conversation with Bill Roberts, Super Cat designer, in 1981 about this. IIRC the force on the luff of the sail, say 200# is a constant(not really constant, because of down haul and mainsheet adjustments) . Each part of a 2:1 halyard system would have half of the force on it. 100# in this example. The loads are spread out differently and mast bend may be slightly different with each system i think.
Weight savings comes from eliminating the wire halyard, and wire could be problematic when used for halyards. Maybe a new high tech sort of line would work with some sort of cleat system at the base like in the example of the retro fitted nacra.
The direct hook at the top first seen on the T in the 60's got rid of any changes in the length of a tradition halyard system during a rough go out. They didn't adjust their downhaul while sailing, so if the top creeped down they would loose downhaul pressure when they needed it most.
If you can solve any problems there may be from just adding a hook lower down on the mast, that is supposed to be a good solution for reefing.
with all the engineers that sail cats the answer to the halyard doubling the force on the mast question, should be easy. a math guy i am not.

interesting idea to deal with the compression issues

mast compression solution

Halyard locks have been around for a while to deal with that. I saw a cool one Hall Spars just developed on facebook last week but I can't find the link.

http://www.hallspars.com/v/vspfiles/hall_products_autolocks.html

i thought using the the Ronstan Compression rope was interesting

Oh, it was! Sorry - didn't mean to steal your thunder. That's a pretty light weight and flexible solution...probably lighter than our hook system AND it would support reefing with nothing extra than a full length high modulus halyard.

That was a Simple and elegant way to deal with the problem.

Anyone know of a a place to get one of these for my Hobie-21se ?

I think the rolling boom for reefing ; is back as an option now !!!

Bille

It wouldn't be hard to make...probably terribly expensive to purchase (assuming they even make something small enough for our range).

http://www.ronstan.us/marine5/constrictor.asp

well..they do offer some pretty small ones. $185 is pretty pricey, though...I would probably try to make something myself.

http://www.ronstan.us/marine5/range.asp?RnID=422

Worth it for the ease of reefing in 2.5 to 3-foot chop at Mohave !!!
That Hook & Ring, has "GOT" to GO.

That thing will Really hold all that pressure on the Halyard ?

Only other Cheap solution i can think of is to place a pulley
at the head of the sail then run the halyard through it and
secure it to the top of the mast. YEA the halyard is now twice
as long, but it can now be 1/2 the tensile strength.
Maybe use an electric winch ?

Bille

One of the older Nacra 5.2 systems used a cable halyard that had a ball crimped on it. There was a small fork riveted to the leading edge of the mast. You would hoist the sail and position that crimped ball into the fork at the top of the mast...then tie off the halyard. It was super easy to work with. The drawback was that the halyard tail was on the leading edge of the mast.

But, yeah, I'm quite sure that Ronstan halyard lock will hold. I think you would be amazed at what that will resist.

maybe a small spinlock at the top, but then you'd have to run some sort of control lines down the mast (to open/close the spinlock).

The spinlock would not withstand the mainsail downhaul loads very well. I finally gave up on those on the spinnaker halyard after two of them exploded on me (fortunately right at the finish line both times). They work great for forces induced directly by hand but not behind something that gets loaded up with additional loads.