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US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day.

Posted By: Mark Schneider

US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/01/14 11:32 PM

Well it looks like the top three US N17 teams have split up and are racing with new partners. Handicapping the teams will be tough.

The Miami OCR N17 fleet is capped at 40 entries with 47 applications submitted... It looks like a good number of the US teams won't make the cut. (The US gets one extra and then each country gets a slot until the magic cutoff is reached) Dec 5th is the cut day.... The US looks like they will allocate the remaining slots at the MLK pre regatta.

Hopefully this flux works out for the USA and we can qualify for one of the remaining 9 slots for Rio.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/02/14 12:59 AM

American Entries:

John Casey/Kristen Lane
Courtney Clamp/ David Whitehurst
Robbie Daniel/ Sarah Streater
Michael Easton/ Katie Pettibone
Cate Gundlach/ Garrett Brown
David Hein/ Jessica Claflin
Stephanie Hudson/ tbd
Mark Mendelblatt/ Carolina Mendelblatt
Sarah Newberry/ Matthew Whitehead
Stephanie Roble/ Tripp Burd
Sandra Tartaglino/ Tyler Burd
Jeremy Wilmot/ Louisa Chafee

Lots of potentially good pairings. JC will definitely be fast on the helm, and it will be interesting to see how quickly Kristen adjusts to the front of the boat (she had been skippering the 49erfx). Easton/Pettibone have a ton of potential in my opinion, and they will be training a lot leading up to the event. Roble/Burd will be fast because, well, Burd. Newberry/Whitehead bring lots of experience and will likely get up to speed as a team quick.

My prediction:
1. Easton/Pettibone
2. JC/Lane
3. Wilmot/Chafee
4. Roble/Burd

Only four spots left for the US to qualify for Rio- 3 at the 2015 Worlds, and 1 at Continental qualification event
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/02/14 01:20 AM

Is Jeremy Wilmot eligible to sail for the US?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/02/14 01:51 AM

Jeff,

My read of the US Sailing team selection process is that the top three ISAF ranked sailors are teams 1 through 3..

So that puts
Newberry
Daniel
Hudson in the OCR's with their new partners. (usually the helm takes priority)

The US probably gets 2 more slots that will be awarded at the MLK event.

I would say that Casey, Easton and Mendelblatt are the most experienced helms in the remaining pool and hopefully the US gets six teams into the OCR.

It will be very tough to get into the remaining gold cup events without scoring well at the OCR and that is important to have a good shot that a team could catch fire an qualify the US for a spot.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/02/14 02:26 PM

Of course, lots of cat sailors on the list from which to choose your favorite.

I'm highly intrigued by the list of "unknowns" (or at least, lesser-knowns, aka non-cat-sailors like Jeff). Are these folks the future of our sport, or are they just in it as an experiment?

Any rundown of hometowns and prior experience available for the field?

Here is my extent of "knowledge" of the newbies, feel free to add/correct...

Stephanie Hudson is the former dinghy sailor, was sailing the N17 at a ton of international events with Ian this past year, correct? Their results were steadily improving over the year.

Jessica Claflin is from RI and came up through NBYA regattas before heading to Brown. She used to hang out on the side of the signal boat and talk to the RC while waiting for the rest of the fleet to finish. No clue how she wound up on cats with David Hein?

Chafee is a very RI name (politicians), Louisa's another Brown grad, and raced with Hein at the F16 Worlds in Newport this year. Wilmot's an import, maybe he has citizenship by now? I've seen their boat at Sail Newport.

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/02/14 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jeff,

My read of the US Sailing team selection process is that the top three ISAF ranked sailors are teams 1 through 3..



Mark,

I believe you are correct, and I'm pretty sure the ISAF ranking travels with the skipper. What I don't know is if US Sailing is having a qualification event for any additional spots, or if they will allocate all the spots through qualifying. It an incredibly transparent process/organization (sarcasm).

Mike,

As far as some of the new folks:

Kristen Lane- experience as helm in Melges 24, 29er, 49erfx, etc. Not sure cat/crewing experience

Courtney Clamp- Sailed in college for UF, I don't think a huge cat background

Katie Pettibone- America's Cup and Whitbread experience

Jessica Claflin- Started sailing with David earlier this fall, been training in Newport and Miami. Did some F18 sailing with us this spring as an intro to cats.

Stephanie Roble- Sailed for ODU in college, top level Laser Radial sailor before switching to match racing where she is one of the top women in the world

Louisa Chafee- Sailed for Brown, been sailing with Jeremy regularly for the last year. I think her first cat sail was also on an F18 with Tripp.

Pretty certain Jeremy can sail for the US now.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/02/14 04:49 PM

Cool, thanks Jeff. Glad they're cutting their teeth with existing cat fleets, maybe that will help with retention?

Mike
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/02/14 06:06 PM

My prediction:
1. Easton/Pettibone
2. JC/Lane - This is going to be a tight battle for the top 2
3. Daniel/Streeter
4. Roble/Burd I'm split here over Wilmot/Chafee but I think they Stephanie will get up to speed fast especially with Tripp's nice forearms running the boat.

Jessica Claflin and I were friendly from when I worked at Vanguard. I introduced her to Tripp. Her, I and Tripp sailed a few times.

It is impressive to see the interest in the 17 fleet from outsiders. This might be the biggest entry from the US besides the Mens Laser, more than Radials. Impressive considering that it's a new class and the commitment level to buy a 17 over a Laser, 470, or etc.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/02/14 06:48 PM

Jeff

Quote

I believe you are correct, and I'm pretty sure the ISAF ranking travels with the skipper. What I don't know is if US Sailing is having a qualification event for any additional spots, or if they will allocate all the spots through qualifying. It an incredibly transparent process/organization (sarcasm).


They actually are transparent this time... Adams has a memo that clearly states... after the top three ISAF slots.... the MLK pre event will decide the remaining US slots in all classes...

So... It is 40 slots... I think 17 countries are entered so far... Only the USA has more then 4 boats registered... so... I think the US gets 4 certain slots and maybe 5 boats into the game. Six would be perfect.

It will be game on for all of the new teams at the MLK event.

I am confused about the total slots for rio tho...

I read that there are 20 slots for multis... so 19 plus Brazil. (This is more then in China???)

They have awarded a bunch so far (10).... and then 3 at then next ISAF worlds and then 1 more at the 2-15 continentals... Other continentals are also awarding one slot.. (Africa gets a continental slot to award)

Does that continental slot have to go to a country within that continent? Is that why you say 3 plus the 1 slots are available? or are there really 9 open slots left with a year plus to go?
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/02/14 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jeff

Does that continental slot have to go to a country within that continent? Is that why you say 3 plus the 1 slots are available? or are there really 9 open slots left with a year plus to go?


Good to know, haven't seen that memo anywhere.

My reading of the qualification system is that a continental qualifier can only qualify NOCs from that continent. If that is the case, there are 4 more spots available to the US.

Here are the relevant links, maybe I'm reading it wrong:
http://www.sailing.org/news/37382.php
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/201402Rio2016QualificationSystemFINALSailingEN-[16399].pdf
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/02/14 07:58 PM

Ah... I see that you are right...

Wow!!!... that means that somebody from North America has to finish what... top 15 at the next worlds or it would come down to the US vs Canada vs Puerto Rico at the 2016 OCR.

How does this not turn into a judging nightmare with charges of team racing the other countries just enough to get the spot.

hmm... (well.... it won't be the first time that USA catamarans have the...." you are team racing" protest battle.)
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/02/14 08:04 PM

Um... Captain Obvious says: "Simple. Just finish first. If you can't do that at a qualifier, you have no prayer of Olympic medals."

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/03/14 12:53 AM

Countries that have qualified:
1 FRA , 2 ARG , 3 AUS ,4 ITA, 5 NZL, 6 SUI, 7 GBR, 8 DEN, 9 AUT, 10 NED

Notable countries not on that list:
USA, CAN, ARU, BRA, SIN, SWE, ESP, GER, PUR, RUS, URU

The Continental qualifier should be (that have active teams):
USA, ARU, CAN, PUR
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/03/14 12:54 AM

Also interesting what happens if there is not a team from a continent (Africa?)
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/03/14 02:03 AM

Where do they put the arab gulf states...... they are spending big bucks supporting sailing?

You have to think south africa will find a team to play... They have strong hobie 16 history and Dart 18 history in the past... Why not... and doesn't Hobie have a central african country with a fleet of Hobie 16s.... The whole point of this system was to get those countries to put in a team... (god only knows how much it costs to send a team... but still).

They do have a mechanism to reallocate... so I suspect that they go back to the results of the N17 worlds and take the next ranked country as qualified.... (so a 4th slot plus [1 continental]would open up)
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/03/14 08:21 PM

Sliding in through the back door will only result in a harsh slap of reality at some point that you just don't belong there... Not sure that anyone spends the time and effort to get to the Olympics "just for the experience."

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/03/14 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Not sure that anyone spends the time and effort to get to the Olympics "just for the experience."

Mike


funny, my coach once asked something very similar... "you've spent 14 years of your life training to be a spectator?"
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/03/14 09:11 PM

Don't get me wrong. I line up to spend my time and money going to NAs for the experience. These athletes put their lives and careers on hold (or should), and spend their (and others') money to the tune of many, many times what we spend to be at the middle or bottom of the fleet at our NAs.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/03/14 09:23 PM

Mike

My point... there is honor in representing your country ... that is unique...... and winning a medal... priceless.
We honor and respect all of the sailors working that hard to represent the US... winning something is icing....

China had sailors who had never raced catamarans before and they represented their country at the last multihull event.... better still... they beat the USA.

There is no backdoor... just opportunities that are now global.
Its like being allowed to buy a lottery ticket.... no play... no shot. To your point about skill.... This is why some argue that it is tougher to win a Worlds then a Medal..

Somehow.... we remember medal winners more so then the world champ top finishes.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/04/14 12:41 AM

Quote
This is why some argue that it is tougher to win a Worlds then a Medal..


Maybe once you get there, but go ahead and ask JC that question right about now.

He's been working his manparts off to get where he is. His whole life is centered around his effort to get to the Olympics to represent his country. He even moved him and his wife to Miami just so he could be a couple hours closer to his training center.

Its an incredible amount of work to try and do what these guys are doing.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/04/14 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Formerly Undecided
He's been working his manparts off


No, they fell off when he bought the minivan... They do that, and don't ask me how I know! (But automatic sliding doors really do rock sometimes. Now if they only had auto-ejection carseats)

But all the work he and everyone else has put in just to get where they are in this trial is stunning. They really are putting the prime of their life "on hold" for this shot.

Not just training, but marketing/fundraising (which can be soul crushing in itself). I recall during Robbie's campaign the discussion about how weak the US Olympic team funding is and how it can be a huge distraction to raise money individually ... That's a lot of car washes, bake sales, and pole dancing...
Posted By: jkkartz1

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/04/14 11:55 PM

I have a collection of Multihulls Magazine from the late 70's to 2000?

Jill was Robbie PR's firm. She never failed to write and submit an interesting story of the Tornado circuit. They had great trials and tribulations manipulating the Euro circuit.

I tip my hat to those hat make this great endeavor!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/05/14 08:44 PM

Yes its a very tough business... (not really a game anymore)

My back of the envelope calculation has the US getting 4 boats into the OCR with Canada outranking the USA for the last slot.
4 boats will be the max for any MNA country in N17s..
I hope I missed something here... and we indeed get 5 spots.

So....the MLK regatta will decide the 4th and final USA slot.

The US could send 4 essentially new teams to the OCR unless the Mendelblatts pull it off at the MLK pre event.


Indeed it is a tough business.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/05/14 09:44 PM

The way I see spot allocation based on ISAF rankings and entries received (could change if DEN, ARG, or ARU enter) :

1. USA (Host)
2. ITA
3. AUS
4. AUT
5. GBR
6. FRA
7. NZL
8. SUI
9. NED
10. CAN
11. USA
12. GER
13. ESP
14. RUS
15. PUR
16. GRE
17. URU
18. SWE
19. BRA
20. BEL
21. BUL
22. ITA
23. GBR
24. FRA
25. NED
26. CAN
27. USA
28. GER
29. ESP
30. RUS
31. ITA
32. GBR
33. FRA
34. CAN
35. USA
36. ESP
37. ITA
38. GBR
39. FRA
40. CAN

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/05/14 10:02 PM

Nice job.... More detailed then my calculation. I got to Canada with the last spot as well. We probably won't know what happens with the 4 US reps until after the MLK event as teams sort themselves out and make hard choices.

It is a tough business!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/08/14 02:06 AM

Good news.... they persuaded ISAF to allow them to increase the registration caps in all classes and all of the paid up USA and Canadian teams will make it to the OCRs in N17s.... They will have 50 boats at the event ... making it the largest OD cat event in NA
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/08/14 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Good news... all of the paid up USA... teams will make it to the OCRs in N17s...


Does that include all 12 teams listed earlier in this thread?

Said another way, paid up in what regard? Is it just the entry fee, or are there memberships required as well?

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/16/14 10:02 PM

US Sailing has released the Olympic selections procedure for 2016. Best combined score from two events.

For Nacra 17 the two events are 2016 Miami OCR and 2016 Worlds in Clearwater. Both US events which is nice.

However, if entries are limited at the 2016 OCR, spots will be handed out based on how teams finish at the 2015 Worlds (Aarhus, Denmark).

Selection document: http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/16-SOG-SAI-ATH-all-classes_12_15.pdf
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/17/14 01:19 PM

Thanks for the follow up, Jeff.

Interesting that the events are so close together temporally.

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/17/14 02:04 PM

My guess is that the 2015 Worlds results will actually be pretty important to qualifying. With OCR and the 2016 Worlds very close geographically and time-wise, there could be a very large international contingent that comes for both. If that is the case, there is a very good chance there will be restricted entry for the 2016 OCR.

US Berths to the 2016 OCR will be given as: top two finishers at 2015 Worlds, and a third slot (if available) to the top finisher at the 2016 MLK regatta.

Basically, the qualification could very well be cut down to 3 boats before the qualifying events even start.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/17/14 04:03 PM

All of this is contingent on first getting the country qualified...

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/17/14 04:28 PM

Of course, but I think we have some very strong pairings emerging that will make that happen.

JC/Kristen
Mike/Katie
Troll/Louisa
Stephanie/Tripp
Sarah/Matt

all have potential. Plus, you have Bora in the mix (2 time moth world champ), which is never a bad thing.

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/17/14 04:57 PM

The big picture is that the selection process is much much better then the US only Olympic trials used in the past. The trials were nothing but trouble in an era of just a couple of international competitors and a small rump US fleet (see wind surf fiasco which led to new US law and the catamaran team racing protests). The principle behind a single selection event was that a sailor would be peaking shortly before the Olympics and carry that edge to a medal in the games. The idea was that the pressure from and all or nothing event was essential in testing the sailors psychological make up and ultimately in actually winning a medal.

The reality is that world competition has raised the bar in all classes to such a degree that "peaking" can't get you a medal. Sailors like Ben Ainslee demonstrate that sheer brilliance carries the day and that "peaking" is less critical then just being the best!

In practical terms, one qualifying slot will be awarded at the 2016 OCRs... having each nation with just three boats entered AND the need to be your nations top sailor because its a countries selection event will minimize any team race bulls...t Of course, a scumbag could have their training partner/buddy from a country with nothing at stake "help" your standing... but with 40 boats on the line... it will be tougher.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/17/14 07:30 PM

Not sure what you mean by:
"In practical terms, one qualifying slot will be awarded at the 2016 OCRs"

For the US selection to the US Olympic Team, it is the combined results for 2016 OCR and Worlds.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/17/14 07:44 PM

Well.... the US starts this critical year with all new teams.... It could be tough to win a USA slot at the 15 Worlds. That leaves the 2016 OCR to qualify the USA for the last spot for Rio...

If they don't qualify the USA... nothing matters... but assuming we do qualify ...that specific team will also be in the lead going into the worlds in 2016 to actually represent the USA at Rio.

Presumably both events weight the same... but without a third tie breaker event... it could get political. (not saying this is a bad thing.... having three events to select would be tough to do... So, I am OK with the possibility of a split... This is why they pay Josh Adams the big bucks)
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/17/14 09:21 PM

Tiebreaker goes to better finish at second event (worlds)
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 12/17/14 09:28 PM

Well, it's certainly possible that the plan of crossing non-catsailors into the development teams could see vindication after all. Time will tell...

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/14/15 06:57 PM

Alright, first big test for the US Nacra 17 teams in 2015 starts on Saturday with the Midwinter Championships on Biscayne Bay.

Entry list is here: http://cgsc-nac.sailspace.net/index.php/current-entrants1/

Predictions anyone?

Overall:
Besson/Riou
Martinez
Vaireaux/Audinet

US Boats:
Easton/Pettibone
JC/Lane
Newberry/Whitehead
Wilmot/Chafee

Should be some very tight racing throughout, would love see Tartaglino/Burd have a good one.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/18/15 03:30 AM

Great start by Sarah Newberry and Mathew Whitehead.... they are standing 6 in the warm up event to the Miami Gold cup after 1 day. The rest of the American teams are well back... Lets hope all of the new teams get things sorted before the Miami event.

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/19/15 09:36 PM

sadly there was no magic in the USA team reshuffle... Wilmot, Newberry and Mendalabrat finish in the high teens in the N17 midwinters. The pressure is on for funding for the third year of the cycle... TBD at the Gold Cup event in Miami... with Olympic qualification to come in the next worlds.
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/19/15 09:43 PM

With one or two exceptions, story seems to be similar in other high-performance classes. Doesn't look to me like this is a multihull issue. I think its an overall gap in performance small-boat sailing culture in the US.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/20/15 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
sadly there was no magic in the USA team reshuffle... Wilmot, Newberry and Mendalabrat finish in the high teens in the N17 midwinters. The pressure is on for funding for the third year of the cycle... TBD at the Gold Cup event in Miami... with Olympic qualification to come in the next worlds.


There need to be some fundamental changes if we can't even qualify the country. One of them needs to be continuing, if not increasing, support for the disciplines and teams that don't make the cut. There needs to be a longer term vision to improve the pipeline. At the Olympics meeting during the US Sailing meeting in WI, I asked that question and was assured that was the idea. Time will tell...

Just for fun (and practice understanding the rules), let's pretend this regatta was the qualifier. What countries would now be qualified (and why)?

Mike
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/20/15 08:48 PM

There is no mystery behind the problem. In countries like AUS, NZ and GBR at around 18 identified top sailors are funnelled into Olympic classes. Even if they haven't been identified due to being from a smaller club they tend to move towards high performance classes cause as a kid fast is fun. In the US these same sailors are moved onto club 470s and the like and spend the next four years practising ways to slow each other down.
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/20/15 08:50 PM

Bingo - that and the giant sucking sound from the money sports.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/20/15 09:01 PM

Every country has its money sports and with the exception of France sailing isn't usually one of them.
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/20/15 09:44 PM

Sorry - I'm a bit over-sensitive on the money-sport issue which in my opinion is a bit overblown here in the US. Seems we've sometimes got some effed up priorities.

As a bit of explanation, my son (16yrs old) is a reasonably good high school gymnast - recently finished 4th nationally in one of his events (mid-30's overall), but sadly that's probably not going to be good enough to take it to the next level. You see, from close to 300 college-level mens gymnastics programs in the late 1960's, there are now only 17 scholarship programs left in the US. This is due to a combination of Title IX (basically equal scholarship opportunity for women) which is/was the result of dominance of Football, Basketball, Baseball - aka money sports. The end result is the cutting or "defunding" of many mens minor sports programs over the last several decades. Therefore, if a student is a talented athlete and wants a chance at a scholarship to pay for University (and avoid huge debt), they go for the money sports where there are 1000's of scholarships available. I'd wager the same phenomenon has sucked the oxygen from the air for sailing as well.

Even at the high school level, schools typically don't offer gymnastics which means we pay for it at the club level - significant expense relative to the tax funded traditional sports.

Fortunately for my son, he does it because he loves it and we can thankfully afford to save enough money for a good portion of his secondary education. But, gymnastics may not be a part of that - perhaps one less candidate on the path to the Olympics...

I am certain this story has been repeated 100's of times for many talented young sailors out there too.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/20/15 11:24 PM

See that is where Australia is different. There is basically no such thing as a sports scholarship here and if you chase the money sports you basically skip uni to do it.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/20/15 11:52 PM

In the US, college sailors are not ALLOWED to collect money for anything related to sailing. Bizarre...

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/21/15 02:19 AM

Interesting point re college..Dean Brenner, Olympic director up through London and his position was... Olympic talent is Olympic talent... you can take a college all american....coach em up in a high performance boat and be competitive in 4 and win medals in 8 years.... His evidence... Johnny and Charlie...
After the Wehyouth debacle no cats)... Josh Adams is the new Olympic director and he is implementing the youth and olympic development program (that Mike L noted). Presumably the college crowd wasted time in C420s with no spins!
Scarecrow sums it up... they spent 4 years learning how to make others go slow...


So... is the talent wasting their time in college sailing? Can they do both... train in high perormance and complete a degree? Can they do all three... Sail for a college program, train in high performance and get a degree?
What is the college experience for the N17 fleet? Presumably the college crowd wasted time in C420s with no spins! But... did they race something else high performance during that time?

I don't know all of the teams... so help out here.


Robbie Daniel / Sarah Streater
Old Fart... No College / Currently in college ... finding time and money for both c420s and n17s.

Mike Easton/ Kattie Pettibone
College / College

Mark Mendelbrat / His Wife
Old Fart & Olympic sailor / ??

JC/ Kristin Lane
??/??

Sarah Newberry/Matt Whitehead
??/??

Jeremy Wilmot/Chafee
??/??

Troll ??/Louisa ??
??/??

Stephanie/Tripp Burd
??/College

Sandra Taraligno / ?
Old Fart /
Posted By: Timbo

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/21/15 04:57 AM

Now you've done it Mark, Sandra is going to Kick your butt!
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/21/15 11:24 AM

College sailing is fantastic fun and some of the skills certainly transfer to performance boats. That said, college sailing alone won't get you there. I think if a sailor has olympic aspirations they need to have a frank conversation with their college coach about personal goals, team goals, and how the two can become mutual goals. That conversation is on the athlete to initiate and the coach to accommodate. I consider Ravi one of the best young talents we have, and he has a nice blog about his sailing (cats and college at BU) here: http://rpsailing.blogspot.com/

Robbie Daniel / Sarah Streater
Old Fart... No College / ODU Currently in college ... finding time and money for both c420s and n17s.

Mike Easton/ Kattie Pettibone
Tufts / College

Mark Mendelbrat / His Wife
Old Fart & Olympic sailor / ??

JC/ Kristin Lane
??/??

Sarah Newberry/Matt Whitehead
New College (not sure if she sailed)/ USF (not on sailing team as far as I know)

Jeremy Wilmot/Chafee
St. Mary's/Brown

Troll ??/Louisa ?? (Jeremy Wilmot is Troll)
??/??

Stephanie/Tripp Burd
ODU/Tulane

Sandra Taraligno / Tyler Burd
Old Fart /

David Hein / Jessica Claflin
online high school / Brown
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/21/15 03:35 PM

Thanks Jeff

Any idea of When did most of the fleet started training in a high performance boat?

It looks like most of the fleet are following the traditional USA path of Lovell and Ogeltree... eg 4 year college career and then train up for a High performance boat.

Newberry, Whithead and Hein look like they are the only ones tracking like the Aussies or Brits.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/21/15 05:03 PM

Not really sure of everyone's background. I will say that having a background in a performance boat as a youth is valuable even if that boat isn't a cat.

My F18 skipper did the El Toro, 420, 29er progression on the West Coast. After sailing the 29er at a high level, jumping on an F18 was a pretty simple progression, especially because the boat handling on a cat is relatively easy. I know it has taken me a lot longer to get comfortable with apparent wind tactics and the high speed "playbook" since I took a mostly keelboat and slower dinghy route.

I actually think the 29er may be a better training boat for youth than a small cat in some cases, especially because they are easier to handle, easier to store, take up less space, and likely cheaper.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/21/15 05:28 PM

Jeff, Great observations.. I think Adams would agree with you that any high performance training in the junior pathway is becoming essential. Adams and US Sailing has taken that program step by cutting the number of 420 slots to ZERO and requiring i420 or 29ner or F16s for the two person boats in the youth pathway (youth champs).

The problem with the 29ner is that it needs some breeze and only the west coast can deliver breeze during the junior sailing periods in the summers. All of the high performance boats suffer... since without numbers... kids are not turned on by a solitary two boat training regime either. Something to ask Spina/Feeney/Adams.

Its a long road back to international success!
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/21/15 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
In the US, college sailors are not ALLOWED to collect money for anything related to sailing. Bizarre...

Mike


yes, but there is pole/mast dancing...


And I believe JC wend to UCF in Orlando? Started out on MC-scows too if memory serves..
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/21/15 06:27 PM

Quote
And I believe JC wend to UCF in Orlando?


He did not go to UCF, but another school in Orlando.

And he's a good friend of mine who is literally working every ounce of his body to compete and succeed.

And reading this thread is painful for its conjecture and speculation.



Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/21/15 06:59 PM

I don't think anyone on this thread doubts the commitment of those trying for the Olympics. It takes a substantial effort to even consider a campaign.

The reality is, however, that we are way behind the top Nacra 17 teams. I don't think anyone would argue that, especially the sailors. The question is what can we do as a community to ensure our teams have every chance to succeed in the near and long terms.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/21/15 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin


And he's a good friend of mine who is literally working every ounce of his body to compete and succeed.



+1 From my time sailing with him, he's definitely a stand-up dude.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/21/15 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
The question is what can we do as a community to ensure our teams have every chance to succeed in the near and long terms.


I would suspect $$$ being the top "what can we do" answer. With enough funding, these teams could focus exclusively on development (not fundraising, logistics, etc).

I think the steps now being taken to (a) identify potential talent and (b) sparking interest in the long road to the olympics are a good start.


On the other hand, if we used a different sport as an example... what does an Olympic medal in basketball offer to a potential star in that sport? Would they have a better prospect in a professional career with an Olympic medal around their neck?

Would an Olympic medal provide JC or Matt a better shot at a professional sailing job? Or would there be a more effective means to the top spots on an AC team (or VOR, or BWR, etc. etc.)?


And which would be your preference, to win a top world ranking or an Olympic medal?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/21/15 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
I don't think anyone on this thread doubts the commitment of those trying for the Olympics. It takes a substantial effort to even consider a campaign.

The reality is, however, that we are way behind the top Nacra 17 teams. I don't think anyone would argue that, especially the sailors. The question is what can we do as a community to ensure our teams have every chance to succeed in the near and long terms.


Well said...If you know anyone on a campaign... you deeply respect their hard work... US Sailing has really stepped up funding and training. This upcoming gold cup event will award funding for two teams going into year three... It is tough to win the US slot and even tougher to succeed on the international level.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/21/15 10:14 PM

In sailing, if you win an Olympic medal (especially gold and preferably several), you'll probably have no problem getting hired onto an AC team. Nothing is a guarantee, of course...

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 12:11 AM

Looks like it was a very tough first day at OCRs. Have seen some updates from British and Austrian teams on Facebook and Twitter. Sounds like 3 races in 25+ with lots of capsizes and breakages. Top US team is currently Easton/Pettibone in 25th with Aras/Hagood just behind in 26. Seems like Mike did the best job of going into survival mode. Hopefully none of the US teams have serious damage.

results:
http://www.sailing.org/worldcup/res...34440&view=fleetevent#results__18007
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 12:46 AM

Looks like much of the US fleet punted on race 2 and 3...
Some interesting notes... Bora Gulari of Moth championship fame has jumped into the game.... but there was no magic in his pairing with Stephanie Hudson. Mark and Caroline Mendelbratt had the best finish of the US fleet with a 13 in R1. Old Fart Enrique Figoroa has a new partner and he seemed to be sailing well...
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 12:50 AM

I think Bora and Stephanie have single digit sailing days before today, so I wouldn't read too much into today's results. Mendelblatt is definitely fast, which is also not surprising given he is a two-time olympian and took second at a laser worlds.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 02:56 AM

I was sitting with a wind meter in my face all day on the pin, and it was steady high teens / low 20s with occasional gusts into the mid twenties.

Yes, there was a lot of carnage, but to say that it was steady 25+ is just wrong. The squall that went through (we weren't racing at the time) was pretty interesting. ~40 kts and sideways rain. But it only lasted about 15 minutes.

That being said, 9+ hours in a 17' Boston Whaler, wrangling huge marks in that kind of breeze - I'm knackered. It's time for Advil and bed.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 02:59 AM

Thanks Matt, just going off of the very little information I could find. Hope you guys have great conditions the rest of the week. We have a blizzard here!
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 03:10 AM

From Easton via Facebook

"Fun day learning to tame the Nacra 17 in 25-30+ with Katie Pettibone. Lots of carnage on the course (5 broken masts) so we were happy to finish all the races with just a few bruises and capsizes."
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 03:53 AM

From Thomas Zajac and Tanya Frank:

"Day 1 at ISAF Sailing World Cup Miami was brutal, rendering winds up to 30 knots, cold rain and heavy chop. After a crash-capsize during the second race, we finished in 44th.
Far less encouraging was how quickly the fleet diminished, with many boats headed to shore due to injury-- and a grand total of five due to broken masts. Another two capsizes during the second race prompted us to seriously re-evaluate the harsh conditions. Eventually, we decided to keep our mast in one piece and retire for the day.
With our equipment and our bodies still fully intact, we are focused and ready to start fresh tomorrow!
(Hopefully the weather will stick to the forecasted 18-knots!)
Check us out for more updates this week."

From Coen De Koenig:

"First day OCR Miami. I think we all agreed it was bloody windy 20-30 knots. Had some issues (capsize, penalties etc) but hanging in there with 3 medium races 8,11,13."

From Robbie:

"A rough first day. Talked s look at Briannas cheak and you will get a feel. Race committee continued on even after more than half the fleet had crashed and burned. I think 6 broken masts today. To the tune of almost 8000 each. Key Sailing worked hard to pack a trailer and get it to lake City where Brian will get it and drive thru the night to get it to Miami in the morning so people can sail. This is just too much wind for this boat. Too much carnage and hospital level injuries. It's crazy.
Robbie ok after getting separated from the boat and missing for over 30 minutes. Thanks Max for picking him up! Bri banged up a bit but a trouper. Thanks Sulley for jumping in with your cloths on! Thanks Enrique for being there for them."
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 04:00 AM

report: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...m_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 12:18 PM

Just so everyone knows . . .

The course race officers (there are six course circles here) do not have the authority to call off racing. They must receive authorization from the Principal Race Officer (Ricardo Navarro - a Brazilian, who started out racing Hobie 14s).

I saw the PRO boat pull up behind our signal boat in late afternoon, so I'm sure there was some conversation about the conditions. Peter van Muyden (the course RO), is very experienced (he runs the N17s at most of the ISAF world sailing cups).

The top guys probably would have bitched if it was blown off.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 12:33 PM

Matt: no winning for the RC in those conditions, hopefully the rest of the week is great!

From Steph Hudson:

"We had quite an interesting Day 1 of the Miami World Cup! Survival conditions on our 4th day in the boat together, and we were one of the lucky ones to only break small parts. Many Nacra masts broke yesterday, and without extra stock in the US, it is unfortunately game over for some of our competitors. Hopefully the rest of the week will not be so expensive for the fleet!!"
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 12:35 PM

From Cammas: http://www.cammas-groupama.com/en/news/GSTnews/actu_equipe_503.jsp

I'm stuck in a blizzard, so will post what I see!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
Matt: no winning for the RC in those conditions, hopefully the rest of the week is great!



+1!
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 03:49 PM

From Girke/Ramsay:

"Big Monday has come and gone, leaving a trail of broken boats and souls littered across the race area. But for us, the day went very well in the testing conditions. Other then a few minor swims and some broken battens, the team is feeling strong, fit and confident going into the rest of the week's racing. Today's triumph comes all the hard work and training that has gone into this campaign as well as the sheer will power and determination to achieve what is possible. Tomorrow's forecast is for a near perfect 11-15 knots and sunny skies. We couldn't be more excited!"
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 04:24 PM

Some good day-1 footage on FB can be found here here

Sorry - couldn't get a direct link to work.

Looks like it was the real deal. Some serious pucker factor on the bear-away.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 06:36 PM

Live Tracking now: http://static.sportresult.com/feder.../index.php?event=109&pm=2d&v=103
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 10:29 PM

Wilmot, Mendelbrat and Newberry finish first race of the day within 10 secs of each other.

Next Race Newberry Mendelbatt and wilmot finish within 8 seconds of each other..... (damn... can't wait to see how race three shakes out...

Wilmot, Easton and Newberry finish within less then a minute of each other AND close to the top of fleet...

Overall Wilmot and Easton are top US in standing since they survived Monday on the course.. Standing 20 or worse in the fleet.

Looks like JC had some issues with his mast replacement in race one... Its tough to recover after you break the stick you know so well.

looking forward to reports from the water!!


(Thank Goodness for US Laswr woman.... they seem to be strong for medal slots otherwise only two boats in the top 10s in the other fleets)
Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/27/15 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by rehmbo
Some good day-1 footage on FB can be found here here

Sorry - couldn't get a direct link to work.

Looks like it was the real deal. Some serious pucker factor on the bear-away.


If you guys are even shooting video out on the water, please go easy with the zoom...it enhances the bouncieness and makes it hard to view.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/28/15 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by rehmbo
Some good day-1 footage on FB can be found here here

Sorry - couldn't get a direct link to work.

Looks like it was the real deal. Some serious pucker factor on the bear-away.


If you guys are even shooting video out on the water, please go easy with the zoom...it enhances the bouncieness and makes it hard to view.

That was the German coach shooting video, not the pro media teams they have here.

Today, they had a camera from a balloon(!) shooting the gate roundings.

Much better day on the water today. But again, I'm knackered. We run 3 races for the 49er blue fleet, then 3 for the N17s. We left the dock @ 8:45 and didn't get back until 4:30.
Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/28/15 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by rehmbo
Some good day-1 footage on FB can be found here here

Sorry - couldn't get a direct link to work.

Looks like it was the real deal. Some serious pucker factor on the bear-away.


If you guys are even shooting video out on the water, please go easy with the zoom...it enhances the bouncieness and makes it hard to view.

That was the German coach shooting video, not the pro media teams they have here.

Today, they had a camera from a balloon(!) shooting the gate roundings.

Much better day on the water today. But again, I'm knackered. We run 3 races for the 49er blue fleet, then 3 for the N17s. We left the dock @ 8:45 and didn't get back until 4:30.


A balloon!? How does that work?
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/28/15 02:50 PM

They used a balloon during the F18 Worlds in Italy a few years ago.
It had a gopro hanging under the balloon which was about 20m in the air.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/28/15 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds
I was sitting with a wind meter in my face all day on the pin, and it was steady high teens / low 20s with occasional gusts into the mid twenties.

That being said, 9+ hours in a 17' Boston Whaler, wrangling huge marks in that kind of breeze - I'm knackered. It's time for Advil and bed.


Even on a flat lake, a 17 foot Whaler is a tough place to be all day, especially if there's more than two people on it.

Matt: What marks (of the course) are you responsible for? Are you the pin (anchored boat)?

Mike
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/28/15 08:00 PM

Can anything be done with the masts? Being one design, are they stuck a design that has a weak point? There was a picture I saw on Facebook of the broken masts in a pile, and it looks like they snapped more or less in the same spot.
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/28/15 08:01 PM

Let me guess - they broke at the joint mandated by the 2-piece mast requirement.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/28/15 08:07 PM

Masts are not two piece, that requirement was dropped
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/28/15 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Can anything be done with the masts? Being one design, are they stuck a design that has a weak point? There was a picture I saw on Facebook of the broken masts in a pile, and it looks like they snapped more or less in the same spot.


Don't masts pretty much break in the same spot? I haven't seen a lot a variation in break position on any of the beachcat spin boats I've seen. Look at any spin boat going downwind, you can pretty much point at it and say... it's going to break right there.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/28/15 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Can anything be done with the masts? Being one design, are they stuck a design that has a weak point? There was a picture I saw on Facebook of the broken masts in a pile, and it looks like they snapped more or less in the same spot.


Don't masts pretty much break in the same spot? I haven't seen a lot a variation in break position on any of the beachcat spin boats I've seen. Look at any spin boat going downwind, you can pretty much point at it and say... it's going to break right there.


That's true, just seems like a lot of carnage, especially for a carbon mast.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/28/15 09:20 PM

Biscayne Bay is very shallow. I would bet that the vast majority of breakages are from sticking the mast into the bottom.
Posted By: catman

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/29/15 01:05 AM


My take, $8000 masts. LOL

Jill's take.

World Cup update: By Jill. Well, the news is good and bad. Robbie and Brianna's regatta has ended early due to injuries but the good news is that they are trying to see if they can get out again before the end of the regatta. Brianna pulled a groin muscle yesterday.

I really think this class needs to think about a more manageable wind limit. The first day was not manageable by over half the fleet.

Injuries were numerous, 6 broken masts, spin poles, sails and the list went on.

I left here at 330 am to pick up a trailer of parts so people could sail the next day. For those of you who know Brian, he had left at 11pm to drive up and meet a trailer coming from Pensacola and planned to be in Miami at 730 am. All was going well until he blew his transmission at 3am....that is when I was rousted from a rather pleasant sleep, jumped in the truck and started driving North. Once I was on the road and awake.....and I do mean that in that order, I realized that I could not make a 9 hour round trip and be back in time to let people make the 1pm start so I made the all important call at 430 to bob and Cheryl Johnson. You know who your friends are when the just say yes before they even know! They woke up, jumped in their truck and started driving South, picked up the trailer from Brian and kept driving South until we intersected. By them getting the trailer an extra hour South, it saved me 2 hours and I was able to get back by 10am and met the frenzy of sailors in the parking lot. Thanks big time to Bob and Cheryl and to Brian who drove 7 hours for us, then sat on the side of the road Nd waited for his dad who we also woke up to come and pick up him and the truck.

I am kicking in 500 to help with his transmission. Brian helps everyone when he is at an event with us.....if anyone would like to help, it would be appreciated I am sure.

I heard that someone posted that winds were in the teens. I do not know what they where using to measure the wind with but anyone can look up and see it was not just in the teens. The wind was steady low to mid 20's with big gusts. If the race committee can not see that or judge by the amount of carnage, we have a problem!

Safety is a real concern. Robbie was separated from his boat for over 30 minutes before being picked up by a sailor. The boat with Brianna was over for about 20 minutes before someone got to her. Coaches are not allowed on the coarse, but the race committee does not seemed to be too concerned about boats over. How is a boat in the course and on its side with no safety boat response! Enrique was on the coach boat that day and had been helping another team. There must be a better answer. I have not seen as many injuries on a cats ever as we are seeing in this fleet. These concerns need to be addressed before someone dies again! A good ratio of safety boats to sailors are a must....that is not the case here.

The regatta logistics is a bit disappointing but kind of what was expected. Conditions in the boat park, although slightly better than last year is primitive. There are some portolets in the parking lot and a food truck that is here most of the time that has stuff for sale. There are a few big umbrellas in the boat park near the 49rs and some shade over at the rowing club but other than that, it seems pretty barron. There is a beach captain this year so at least there is someone here, but if there is any problems like on the first day, the poor guy is overwhelmed. It is really a shame and it does not make the U.S. Look very good at least as far as the Fx, 49r and N17 fleets are concerned. The one good thing over here is we have plenty of parking.

Fortunately the Marshacks were kind enough to loan us their RV again. Although we can not stay in the lot over night it is allowing us some convenience. We are also turning into the medical tent as people come in looking for some aide.

To add insult to injury, they have a 90 minute limit from the time the last boat finishes to file a protest. So first you have to sail in, which is significant. Then IF you have a car you have to drive in rush hour traffic, which is pretty slammed, then you have to find a parking spot which is next to impossible. They had agreed to let the sailors file electronically thru the beach captain, which solved a ton of problems but then they rescinded that decision.

The coaches are having to anchor their boats to the shore or tie them to a fence. U.S. Sailing put 3 moorings in the water but with no way to get in and out it is tough to use them.

The sailors are feeling like they are in a third world county. It is a bit embarrassing again, especially after the same venue was used last year. World Cup events are suppose to be on a professional level. This is our time to shine to the sailing world. I am afraid we are not shining at all.

I hope the organizers try to improve the conditions over here for next year. There are some pretty easy things that can be done.

- Space out the containers and tie a canvas between two containers and set up some tables and chairs so they have a place to sit and eat and relax....very little expense...and someplace to get out of the rain.

- have a couple of volunteers over here to help....very little expense.

- have some medical assistance here. ...very little expense

- have a trailer brought in with reasonable bathrooms and showers....minimal expense.

- have more wifi available...minimal expense

- have remote filing of forms

- have a more reasonable arrangement for coach boats.

All these things are minimal expense and would help to put in a better show to the world sailors.

End





























































Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/29/15 01:55 AM

I'm a little surprised at the mast costs. I know the A-cat doesn't need to support the same kind of loads - but last I was involved with it, you could buy an A-cat tube for a little under $3000 (without hardware).
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/29/15 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by mbounds
I was sitting with a wind meter in my face all day on the pin, and it was steady high teens / low 20s with occasional gusts into the mid twenties.

That being said, 9+ hours in a 17' Boston Whaler, wrangling huge marks in that kind of breeze - I'm knackered. It's time for Advil and bed.


Even on a flat lake, a 17 foot Whaler is a tough place to be all day, especially if there's more than two people on it.

Matt: What marks (of the course) are you responsible for? Are you the pin (anchored boat)?

Mike

I'm doing start pin (anchored boat), gate and finish mark. We start, blow up the finish pin (a 1.5 meter green mark), set the finish line, then tweak the gate, signal changes, then tie up to the finish mark to help record finishes. We barely have time to throw some food in out faces all day long. It's been exhausting work.

The gate marks are large:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: coralreefer

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/29/15 02:51 AM

There is a NOAA bouy on nearby Virginia Key and here were the observations recorded every 6 seconds. These are in mph. Seems pretty harry from 1-2pm and then also from 3-4:30.


Time Spd Gust
11:30 16.11 19.69
11:36 17.22 19.69
11:42 17.22 18.34
11:48 14.99 19.69
11:54 18.34 19.69
12:00 18.34 20.80
12:06 18.34 20.80
12:12 17.22 20.80
12:18 16.11 19.69
12:24 17.22 19.69
12:30 17.22 19.69
12:36 18.34 20.80
12:42 18.34 19.69
12:48 18.34 21.92
12:54 17.22 21.92
13:00 17.22 21.92
13:06 20.80 23.04
13:12 19.69 21.92
13:18 20.80 24.16
13:24 18.34 24.16
13:30 19.69 23.04
13:36 21.92 23.04
13:42 21.92 24.16
13:48 19.69 24.16
13:54 19.69 23.04
14:00 19.69 21.92
14:06 18.34 21.92
14:12 18.34 20.80
14:18 18.34 21.92
14:24 18.34 20.80
14:30 17.22 20.80
14:36 16.11 19.69
14:42 18.34 19.69
14:48 16.11 19.69
14:54 16.11 19.69
15:00 18.34 20.80
15:06 19.69 21.92
15:12 19.69 23.04
15:18 21.92 24.16
15:24 19.69 25.28
15:30 20.80 23.04
15:36 21.92 25.28
15:42 21.92 25.28
15:48 25.28 34.45
15:54 24.16 27.74
16:00 26.40 31.09
16:06 21.92 31.09
16:12 21.92 27.74
16:18 21.92 28.86
16:24 10.29 24.16
16:30 13.87 21.92
16:36 9 .17 21.92
16:42 8 .05 17.22
16:48 8 .05 14.99
16:54 8 .05 16.11
17:00 8 .05 14.99
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/29/15 04:59 AM

Class has a 25 knot wind max.... So... IN THEORY.... the fleet should have been pointy end up and racing hard...

In practice... half the fleet was getting killed.... Now since this is as professional a fleet top to bottom that you will find... some might say this is a problem! Carnage well beyond bad luck and newbie racers.

Surviving the boat in 20 plus is a skill.... however... I thought the game was sailboat racing. (there are differences of opinion on this one tho)

Gee.... do you think ISAF should have allowed Nacra to fix the boat and put some t foil rudders on the thing when the boat was jumping out of the water all of the time..

An aftermarket t foil fix would have been a LOT cheaper then an 8K mast...

Perhaps they should not have allowed a half baked boat to get this far in the Olympic cycle.

It's all fun and games until somebody dies and then the coasties will get involved..
Posted By: John Williams

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/29/15 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by mbounds
It's been exhausting work.


you could be in the office...
Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/29/15 01:03 PM

The water can be a real washing machine in that specific area too - which is undoubtedly amplifying the non-pointyendup problems.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/29/15 01:10 PM

Race 9 - GO SANDRA!
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/29/15 02:52 PM

Regarding the medical staff on site,

My wife I'm sure would be willing to volunteer to be on site for the event. Plus we know the new incoming medical director of the Miami-Dade EMS and I'm sure he'd be more than willing to hear about the fact that there isn't adequate medical coverage at a world-class event like this. They mentioned that the University of Miami was supposed to be supporting the medical needs of the event but if they aren't there, thats a huge liability issue and something needs to happen.

Kate just said she can fly in if need be.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/29/15 04:46 PM

I like Jill's suggestions. The real question would be "to whom should they be addressed?" as well as "how can we get those things done?"
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/29/15 07:04 PM

Thanks for the pic and update Matt. Are you not using a hippety-hop to retrieve the ground tackle? Those marks are big for the boat, but not huge. How deep is the water there?

Regarding safety/medical, this is an ISAF event, and Matt is a NRO with decades of cat sailing experience. By the sounds of it, they're short on assets, and Matt is living that every day. He's possibly in the best position to enact future changes. But if there's something we can do from the US Sailing Multihull Racing Committee side, let me know. Safety is one of our mandates.

Of course, isn't this the event that infamously shorted PU many years ago? Time to crack open the lessons learned reports?

Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/29/15 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Thanks for the pic and update Matt. Are you not using a hippety-hop to retrieve the ground tackle? Those marks are big for the boat, but not huge. How deep is the water there?

Regarding safety/medical, this is an ISAF event, and Matt is a NRO with decades of cat sailing experience. By the sounds of it, they're short on assets, and Matt is living that every day. He's possibly in the best position to enact future changes. But if there's something we can do from the US Sailing Multihull Racing Committee side, let me know. Safety is one of our mandates.

Of course, isn't this the event that infamously shorted PU many years ago? Time to crack open the lessons learned reports?

Mike


When I was laying marks for JC during his practice session, the water was no more than 20feet deep. Often more shallow.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 02:55 AM

The water is only 10-15 feet deep. Pulling the anchors is not the issue (although the donated plow anchors are somewhat inappropriate). Wrangling those 2 meter diameter marks in 25 kts is a problem. They have a lot of windage - and they're heavy, with a chain bridle underneath them.

The biggest issue with the marks are the "skins" they put on them - they're very fragile and the marks cannot be towed in the water at all. The marks are yellow, but the skins are orange, so if the skins get ripped off, the marks are the wrong color.

I am in no position to affect how things are done at this event, other than to relay some of the concerns Jill has brought up to the people who might have some influence.

This is my first year here, and I'm just an Indian. I pick marks up and I put them down.
Posted By: Pressure Drop

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 02:58 AM

what a pile of **** boat. bring back the T and be done with it, you wanks.
Posted By: TEAMVMG

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by Pressure Drop
what a pile of **** boat. bring back the T and be done with it, you wanks.


Classy - what's that based on?
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by mbounds
The water is only 10-15 feet deep. Pulling the anchors is not the issue (although the donated plow anchors are somewhat inappropriate). Wrangling those 2 meter diameter marks in 25 kts is a problem. They have a lot of windage - and they're heavy, with a chain bridle underneath them.

The biggest issue with the marks are the "skins" they put on them - they're very fragile and the marks cannot be towed in the water at all. The marks are yellow, but the skins are orange, so if the skins get ripped off, the marks are the wrong color.

I am in no position to affect how things are done at this event, other than to relay some of the concerns Jill has brought up to the people who might have some influence.

This is my first year here, and I'm just an Indian. I pick marks up and I put them down.


Thanks Matt. Skins and chain bridles, wow. No BIMBOs were involved in the selection of those marks/tackle, evidently?

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds
The water is only 10-15 feet deep. Pulling the anchors is not the issue (although the donated plow anchors are somewhat inappropriate). Wrangling those 2 meter diameter marks in 25 kts is a problem. They have a lot of windage - and they're heavy, with a chain bridle underneath them.

The biggest issue with the marks are the "skins" they put on them - they're very fragile and the marks cannot be towed in the water at all. The marks are yellow, but the skins are orange, so if the skins get ripped off, the marks are the wrong color.

I am in no position to affect how things are done at this event, other than to relay some of the concerns Jill has brought up to the people who might have some influence.

This is my first year here, and I'm just an Indian. I pick marks up and I put them down.


Sounds like you could have used a boat-trailer.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 02:52 PM

[Linked Image]


I was asked offline where I saw the popped mast pictures. It was on FB.

Looks like it was in the middle of the diamonds though? That's usually not a spot I look at a mast and go "oh ****!, that ain't gonna last!"
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 03:09 PM

5 masts all broke in the same spot.

It broke "like a kit kat".
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 03:15 PM

interesting.

But were the mast breaks due to the sailing or the flip/hitting the bottom?

I am about the furthest from an engineer one can get (besides maybe an Art History major - their credo is "Fricta vis ut" or loosely translated as "Would you like Fries with that?"), but I would suspect that right about there is the second most highly loaded part of the mast?

When the diamonds are cranked along with full tension on mainsheet, that part of the mast is probably pre-bent a bit and can't flex due to the diamonds holding it in column and the mainsheet/boom tension pushing it forward?

But when you stick the mast in the mud, there's probably no way to properly determine where all the shock loading is going?
Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 03:44 PM

That's roughly in the middle...which makes sense. In the middle of the mast which is roughly in the middle between the upper diamond wire connecting point and the spreaders.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 04:46 PM

Carbon masts are speced for the N17 because they can be built to a constant standard... The tornado's had to move to a carbon stick by ISAF order because of all of the BS games that could be played with alu extrusions changing bend characteristics and still being class legal... measurable advantages to the teams with the perfect mast... but hardly one design. The class was ordered to change...

ISAF learned their lesson and required a carbon stick for the new Olympic class ...

Nacra's first stick was a total failure.... Their second stick also failed... Eventually they (ISAF and Nacra) went to an outside builder... (Hall spars I think) Why they are 8 grand is another good question.

I don't think the issue is the mast... I think the issue is the boats seaworthiness. I believe Nacra wants to fix it... but ISAF has their head up their butt and won't admit that they screwed up.

Enrique Figorora would be a good person to interview... He was an adviser to the ISAF technical committee and had a major voice in all of these decisons.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


I don't think the issue is the mast...


I don't think its the total issue either, but this isn't the first we've heard of mast failures with this boat.

I'm guessing the cost is relative to supply. As in I'm the only one supplying this, and I'm behind, so go f*ck yourself. It's what I would do and have done, it's smart operating.

Other than that, the C foils need to go at some point, it'll likely happen, but this is dealing with a bureaucracy, so smart things are never done quickly. How much attention would this class attract if they were flying like the NACRA carbon 20 or Phantom?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 05:34 PM

given the choice, would you think the Phantom would be the better thought-out platform?

Are they priced similarly?
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 05:45 PM

There's issues with getting them right now. Production keeps getting pushed back, which is to be expected to be honest. But they are starting to roll out.

Better platform quality wise? I don't know. My small exposure to the Phantom F18's was just looking at them at Worlds in Long Beach, seemed to be a quality product. But I think that is true of most of the boats. The Flying Phantom looks incredibly stable, and it's had buckets of money poured into it's development. I think the 17 was kind of shotgunned into position.

At this point, yeah, I'd say it'd be a better platform, but what do I know. I'm in the frozen north where my own boat doesn't get used. I'd just base that on stability. It doesn't matter how easy the boat is to sail. The level of competition creates challenges all on it's own. Squeezing that last freckle of speed out takes dedication, skill, and practice. I think the 17 would create a more level playing field if it were either straight boards, winglet rudders were added, or if it got the flying package like the Carbon 20. The A-cats weren't running C boards for very long. 5-6 years? They didn't move away from it because of the awesomeness.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/30/15 07:49 PM

So... with one race to go before the medal round on Sat... the standings are Easton, Newberry and Wilmott.

Looks like Sarah and Matt had the best regatta after the nucelar events on day one.. Easton and Wilmott finished the three races on day one wheras Newberry finished one of them. and so they eat a 50 Nobody is a clear cut front runner with the Mendlablatts in the mix as well. ...

Hopefully the new teams can continue improving at the next event in Clearwater and move up the world ranks.

Puerto Rico and Canada are leading the US tho in the unofficial handicapping for qualifying their country for the olympics.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/31/15 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Puerto Rico and Canada are leading the US tho in the unofficial handicapping for qualifying their country for the olympics.


This is the critical equation. Does it matter if PUR is ahead of USA? Can they both qualify?

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 01/31/15 08:04 PM

This year's Miami world cup was not a country qualifier. Next opportunity will be the 2015 Worlds where 3 country places will be up for grabs. If a spot isn't secured there, 1 spot will be available at a Continental qualifier (likely 2016 Miami).

Countries that have qualified: FRA, ARG, AUS, ITA, NZL, SUI, GBR, DEN, AUT, NED

Posted By: Marty M

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/01/15 02:15 AM

It is cheaper to have your customers do the testing at there expense I would think
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/01/15 09:29 PM

Nacra has had some quality issues in the past, but I really don't think they can be blamed for the mast breakages in Miami. Sticking the mast into the bottom in 15ft deep water and 20+ knots of breeze is going to snap masts no matter who built them!

Posted By: Pressure Drop

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/01/15 11:47 PM

Hey Jeff, edit out the "in the past" part and you'd have a correct statement. How about an Olympic multi that isn't youth-sized and can handle sailing weather? Fast in 10-15kts means nothing if you can't keep your sailors (or boats) in one piece when it blows over 20.
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/02/15 03:05 AM

You certainly can't blame anyone let alone Nacra or ISAF for broken masts. As Jeff said, any mast would break hitting the bottom.
Do you know how many Lasers break masts? Would you say that boat isn't sailable over 20?
How about 49ers? They break masts all the time and their masts are not cheap even despite the fact that they have multi-piece masts. The 49ers have also had multiple generations of masts and they still still break.
It's part of sailing a high performance boat.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/02/15 03:37 AM

stop jumping on the bright shinny object.... broken masts.... or another round of bashing Nacra build quality ...

The fact is the breeze was measured 18 to 23 with gusts... measured by Bounds and confirmed by the weather buoy..
The issue... Why are so many masts finding the bottom? Why were so many teams on the beach or in the hospital... The conditions were below the class max of 25... (Hell they had a medal race in Tornado's in 25 to 30 with gusts...)

My answer... ISAF ego by members of the technical committee stopped nacra from adding t foils after the carbon mast snafu was solved ...

The politically incorrect move is to lower the wind max to 20 or 22 and just err on the safety side till the next quad.
The game is sailboat racing... not survivor...
When almost half the fleet of pros punts.. Its not sailboat racing.... its a mistake founded in ego.

so...stop killing the fleet for no reason.... half the fleet made the call to bail because the ultimate goal is Rio and its not likely to blow stink there.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/02/15 07:29 AM

And... you've got to finish before you can win.

If you destroy your boat, well, you're out.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/02/15 10:48 AM

Do we know the masts broke from hitting the bottom, or are we just guessing?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/02/15 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
stop jumping on the bright shinny object....


Funny this all got stirred up again by a bot post smile
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/02/15 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Pressure Drop
How about an Olympic multi that isn't youth-sized and can handle sailing weather?


Perhaps explain "youth sized"?

My understanding from lots of other threads is that by weight/size, most USA/north american crews are a lot bigger/heavier than crews from other nations?

So "Youth size" to an American may be best suited for a Chinese team which weighs somewhat less?

Of course, these same countries competed rather well on the T boats, but I believe the move the the 17 foot version was that the T "isn't female/smaller crew friendly"?

Kinda feels like a circular argument...
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/02/15 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Do we know the masts broke from hitting the bottom, or are we just guessing?


I'm sure the teams would be able to tell us if the masts broke before or after the boat went over.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/02/15 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Do we know the masts broke from hitting the bottom, or are we just guessing?


Educated guess based on having sailed on the Bay a bunch and reading reports of turtled boats. I could be wrong.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/02/15 06:12 PM

Shallow water in Florida? Who knew... laugh But we're kinda taking that's what broke them as fact, when we don't know. That's all I'm saying.
Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/02/15 07:11 PM

Is there a sealed mast (buoyant) rule in place for the N17?
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/02/15 08:56 PM

Surely someone has JC on speed dial and can resolve this quickly.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/02/15 11:24 PM

The bottom is a hard, clayey sand - and only 10-15 ft. down.

On Monday, the waves were 2x4's - 2 ft high and 4 ft apart.

When boats go down the mine like this in those conditions, it's a pretty safe assumption the bottom is the culprit for a broken mast:
[Linked Image]

Posted By: Jay Glaser

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/03/15 01:58 AM

It was pretty windy Monday. I just checked the Dinner Key light for the time they were racing and it shows plenty of puffs over 30. When the mark boat was reporting 22 the GBR coachboat with calibrated wind instruments on an fixed 8 foot mast was reading a puff of 32. I would go with that number. As far as if the masts failed on impact or from contact with the bottom the team I rescued did not really know but they said it happened really fast. I did not see any mud on the top of their sail.
This is the first time I saw the N17s race in person and was very impressed at how easily the top teams are sailing them.
Posted By: new2sailin2

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/03/15 02:12 AM

It is interesting to read when ISAF conducted the trials for the multihull the Nacra was not tested in the capsize test http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/MultihullEvaluationAppendix2SailorBoatFeedbackDataV21-[12459].pdf

If I remember there was a long letter from one of the Olympic sailors at the trials saying Nacra had broken the mast previously . They thought it should have been tested in the capsize. Knowing Nacra they would have done a lot more testing before the carbon masts were released to the public.

As for the changing to foils again I think some research will show that would be a major change. ISAF which is controlled by all the national authorities of sailing don't do major changes in a 4 year cycle. I remember Tornado wanting changes and it was rejected as it was mis Olympic cycle. After Brazil then there will be changes and then a lot of countries that have invested in a new boat will complain. The idea is not to change boats and equipment to reduce the costs of sailing.

I think that is why ISAF agreed to the submission http://www.sailing.org/tools/docume...nandBeyondEventsandEquipmentRegulations-[15564].pdf which locks the classes in for 8 years.

Just a little bit of research shows there seemed to be a problem with Nacra mast even at the trials. That equipment is locked in for 8 years. Though there can be changes after the Olympics.Whether countries will allow the change after investing in a new design would be another question.

Sorry the links don't seem to format properly you will have to copy and paste in your browser.
Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/03/15 02:27 AM

I think we're being a little over-critical here...I would expect the same kind of damage result from any of the top catamaran racing classes in that kind of breeze. Would I hate to have that kind of break down? Absolutely. The expense is really what stings teams that are trying to string together a campaign (which is a lot of them - this crap is expensive). I really have a lot of respect for anyone competing at this level but I also feel like I should point out that someone is winning even through all of the pain. As a competitor I would look at those people and try to figure out what they are doing differently? I still feel like we should be championing the fact that there are multihulls involved at all.

As far as capsize testing, I don't even think the N17 had anything close to this mast during the evaluation phase - so it wouldn't have mattered.

If this kind of result is to be avoided, we (I use that term broadly) need to decide if the boats are to be made more bullet proof, capsize resistant, or if the wind limits should be reduced.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/03/15 05:31 AM

Class rules are 25 sustained... Puffs don't count.. per the rules. The conditions on Key Biscayne sound normal for North America with a front coming through.... High teens to low 20s with 10 knot puffs rolling down the course... The puffs are always the issue ...

BUT.... do you want to argue that the F18s would have been on the beach... We know the Tornado's would have been fine.. Nacra 20s race up the Atlantic coast for 1000 miles and don't blow up or kill their crews. Hobie 16s go racing with far less professional fleets top to bottom in those conditions.

How can you argue that the boats are seaworthy in these "by defintion" RACING conditions.

Suck it up... lower the wind max and race sailboats... not play survivor... or who's got the most spare parts in their trailer.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/03/15 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
How can you argue that the boats are seaworthy in these "by defintion" RACING conditions.

Suck it up... lower the wind max and race sailboats... not play survivor... or who's got the most spare parts in their trailer.


Just based on the numbers it looks like the top of the fleet was doing more than just surviving. Clearly some of the teams have the boat figured out.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/03/15 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
How can you argue that the boats are seaworthy in these "by defintion" RACING conditions.

Suck it up... lower the wind max and race sailboats... not play survivor... or who's got the most spare parts in their trailer.


Just based on the numbers it looks like the top of the fleet was doing more than just surviving. Clearly some of the teams have the boat figured out.


Not taking sides here, but Mark, that post completely contradicts itself. Hobie 16 masts don't survive in 20 feet of water, either. People learn how to race them without capsizing. At this level of competition, that means in 20+ knots of breeze.

I'm not rooting for anyone other than the USA, but it's pretty obvious, at least from the results that are pretty consistent from regatta to regatta by now, that there are several teams who have figured out how to thrive on this boat. Sadly, none of them live here...

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/03/15 07:05 PM

Mike... the point is not... will masts break in 15 to 20 feet of water... (Of course they will)..

The point is definitely NOT has the boat been figured out by some people... (Yes it has)..

The point is... the boat is UNSTABLE so that BAD LUCK knocks out teams WHO DO KNOW HOW TO SAIL THE BEAST...

The key question... WHY would you want to use a boat that favors the lucky?

Take JC.... do you think he doesn't know how to sail the damn boat... or was he just unlucky?

Now... some teams were unlucky and then could not get a replacement mast... their game was over. (how many spare parts do you need to backstop a world event??? 5 masts were not enough so that is a legit issue.)

Some teams were unlucky and did time in the hospital.. (How lucky do you have to be to race N17s? ...Notice the number of helmets being worn... Wonder why this fleet is so much different then other beach cats...)

Mark Mendelblatt has done TWO Olympics in other boats... do you think he can't sail the damn boat... He opted to hit the beach!

Bill Roberts... the designer of the Supercats and RC 27s... and Goran Marstorm (Builder of Tornados) nailed the core philosophy...

You want a boat for the Olympics that is technically challenging to sail FAST...... a formula 1 like boat.. so that SAILING SKILL determines the gold medal.
You don't want to race the family car....Not enough refinement to test sailing skill... Luck is too much a factor in the race.
You also don't want a boat that is unstable .. and just an issue to SAIL pointy end up in standard conditions of a front passing through BAD LUCK using an unstable boat should not be part of the game.

I get it... Gen Xers disagreed with me when the N17s issues became apparent. ...They think its a skill thing... They were wrong. After 2 years of training on the boat...ALL of the international teams should have been racing hard... not half of them on the beach.

The only fair solution in the last two years of the quad is to lower the wind max.. You minimize the safety issues and take BAD LUCK (due to the boat) out of the competition as best you can.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/03/15 07:22 PM

Mark - JC was having a bad week. His best race - a 26th - was the last one - that had the lightest wind. I watched him cross the line every time he finished and he was not a happy guy. It's a way different game when you're the nut on the tiller than the muscle in the front of the boat.

The boat is not UNSTABLE (as you put it). It's certainly twitchier than an F-18 (that weighs 50 kg more), but the photos of the boat leaping out of the water are not representative of the boat's general performance. I never once saw a boat do that in Miami. I saw more of that with the "foiling" A-Class cats at the Alter Cup.

Only 3 of the top 27 teams overall had two letter scores racing in the extreme conditions on Monday.

Bottom line - the USA sucks in this class (in comparison to the rest of the world).
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/03/15 10:23 PM

Matt

Obviously the US Sailors are working on raising their game... The US put a handful of sailors into the medal round. They knew it could take 8 years to be competitive. Hope springs eternal.

RE the N17
What accounts for the International Fleet getting blitzed in the big breeze?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/03/15 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

RE the N17
What accounts for the International Fleet getting blitzed in the big breeze?


Not all international teams are created equal. Quit being obtuse Mark.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/04/15 12:38 AM

Ah... Dave that is your judgement.... I would judge the INT. N17 fleet shipping their boats around the world to gold cup events as being above the threshold of "competent" YMMV of course.

What could happen is that Organizing authorities figure out that they face real liability issues. They could decide that they don't have sufficient safety boats and personnel on the course and pull the plug on racing N17s.

Alternatively

It takes a PRO with guts and experience to make these calls against the wishes of the Organizing Authority..
I saw Paul Ulibara make this call in Miami at an OCR. He based the call on conditions and the lack of support boats provided by the OA.... I watched the OA sputter in protest. I heard about the euro event where the T Fleet supported PUs call on the water the day before and his subsequent replacement by opting to not leave the dock....

This is a judgement call made by a guy with balls and great judgement ..

Nevertheless... it is ALWAYS BETTER to set the expectations before hand.... So... a policy change is far better then counting on the judgements of OAs and PRO's who have lots of conflicting interests.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/04/15 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
The US put a handful of sailors into the medal round.

Not in the N17 class in Miami. That's what we're talking about, right? The highest placing US sailor was Mike Easton in 21st. Not bad, given his limited experience with the boat, but not good enough for the medal race.

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
What accounts for the International Fleet getting blitzed in the big breeze?

WTheF are you talking about? Most of the "International Fleet" was able to handle the breeze.

Re: the decision to race - PU had some serious balls to go against the Miami OA - and was lucky he had the support of the T sailors. He got invited back only because he really was (is) that good. A move like that by a course RO now would get you a nice "thank-you, your services are no longer needed" note for not being a "team player".
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/04/15 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
The US put a handful of sailors into the medal round.

Not in the N17 class in Miami. That's what we're talking about, right? The highest placing US sailor was Mike Easton in 21st. Not bad, given his limited experience with the boat, but not good enough for the medal race.

I was trying to be optimistic... and not say our N17 sailors sucked.... rather make the point that the entire US sailing scene has structural problems... few medal round appearances and no medals.


Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
What accounts for the International Fleet getting blitzed in the big breeze?

WTheF are you talking about? Most of the "International Fleet" was able to handle the breeze.

18 of 49 teams bailed on the first day. Including 2 teams who finished in top 25.
2 more of those teams were top of the pecking order teams (Sui and Rus) and BAD LUCK on the water... took them out of the regatta because of no parts available.

Yes... some sailors manage the conditions ... What is the impact on the game of sailboat racing.

Discount the US teams... and still that is a large portion of the international teams that made a risk reward calculation in 18 to 22 with 10 knot puffs....
I think these numbers support my point Your WORDS... TWITCHY boat (half baked design) makes for BAD LUCK a significant part of the game.




Re: the decision to race - PU had some serious balls to go against the Miami OA - and was lucky he had the support of the T sailors. He got invited back only because he really was (is) that good. A move like that by a course RO now would get you a nice "thank-you, your services are no longer needed" note for not being a "team player".


Yup... a conflict of interest ... My point... its best to resolve this before you get on the water.

So.... the current status.. "Team Player" trumps Safety and Excellence in Race Management...

What do people think will happen when somebody dies?

Here are some recent examples!
Answer: The US Coast Guard went nuts on OA race management for "coastal" distance races and now regulate them as OFF SHORE events after the pacific north west accident... Now... the Down the Bay race on the Chesapeake requires offshore gear. IE $$$$ or you break the rules/cheat (grin).

Answer: Severn Sailing has a member's kid die in a 420 racing accident and now they use Hobie Bobs... no spinakers and have deemphasized their two person 420 junior racing program in Annapolis.

Answer: the America's cup OA puts in wind limits to manage the racing after a boat blows up and a pro sailor dies... even tho... it was probably a design flaw at the root of it.

What do you think happens?

(Oh... and this is before the US legal system takes over and assesses liability and then the insurance industry assigns responsibility and $$$)

We do have some experience with this... The Tornado fleet did have an Olympic level sailor die in a turtle capsize after being stuck in the rigging in an ISAF event overseas. The outcome was compartmentalized and forgotten... Will that work in a North American context?
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/04/15 06:33 PM

Matt and Ding have made my points with regard to the fleet/design.

Mark, while I disagree with you on the boat design, you make excellent points on the fallout of disasters. I've said it here before, everyone is Mr. Macho about taking their own risks, but as soon as someone dies, it's a race between the family's lawyers filing lawsuits vs. the Coast Guard calling US Sailing HQ. Nothing good happens after that, which is why we (ROs) try so hard to avoid ending up there (aside from wanting our friends/fellow sailors to be safe).

Support boats are a real issue for OA vs. ROs, at all levels of the game. Sad to see it at this level, especially with the history.

Don't get me started on the hypocrisy with the trapeze safety systems/rules.

Mike
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/04/15 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
What do people think will happen when somebody dies?


Just a twinge dramatic don't you think?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/04/15 11:05 PM

Dramatic...

I don't know about that... (See the Tornado result)

The immense sadness at organizational junior meetings after Olivia died in a 420 accident was profound. I got the impact of all of the decisions made or dismissed or poo pooed and 99.9 percent of the time... they are not important... BUT... for that .1 percent of the time... You really want to know that you thought these issues out... and made a considered judgement.

Take the example of Robbie Daniel paddling about on the race course for 30 minutes before being spotted this year... Does the event have an adequate Safety program in place?

Now consider the usual racing rule... no radio communication gear allowed.. Hmm... That is a policy decision that could kill somebody... Is there an adequate safety program in place?

In Newport this past summer... a 505 team picked up an A cat buddy of mine after 20 minutes swimming/lost at sea??.... Of course the nitwit A Cat PRO... was clueless that one of his sailors was swimming..

The A class had that ridiculous rule as well... St Francis and the A class leadership changed that for their upcoming NA's.

Will it make a difference.... 99.9% of the time... probably not... I think its good judgement to plan for that .1% of the time. And do smart things.

Drama gets your attention... what you do with the facts is about judgement.

When being a good team player trumps safety and race management... I have some issues... and choose to be a PIA.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/05/15 01:37 AM

Mark,

Please provide the A Cat rule that forbids carrying radios, I don't see that in the class rules.

Most classes allow radios to be carried for emergencies, but forbid their use during (and usually before) racing.

Rules or no rules, I'll never get on a boat without a VHF attached to my person. 13.5 hours overnight on the bottom of a turtled cat leaves an impression...

Mike
Posted By: Marty M

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/05/15 11:14 PM

NACRA 17 news

Guess they did not sail in Clearwater today.

http://global.iwindsurf.com/map#27.464,-82.365,9,1,!98676,1
Posted By: catman

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/08/15 10:45 PM

Jill again,


We hate to brag about Clearwater with it being our home town but Clearwater has just run a school on how to do an event for the N17, 49r and Fx Classes. Everything that was such a dissapointment for these classes with the last event in Miami was made up for by the Clearwater event.

The racing was great, the venue was fabulous....Plenty of parking, hot showers, real toilets with toilet paper (we don't ask for much!), plenty of shelter inside and out. A very aware race committe that kept us all safe with a proper amount of safety boats. Coach boat parking... THEN IT GOT EVEN BETTER ....for less than $200.00 for early registration fee, you got a T shirt, they passed out sandwhiches on the water each day, then at night had food enough to feed an army every day for FREE! Each racer had a crediential pass that got the racers and coaches free transportation along the beach on the Jolly Trolly, free entry into the Clearwater Marine Aquarium where they met Winter, the famous dolphin from the movie Dolphin Tail and Dolphin Tail 2.


Keep in mind, Clearwater Community Sailing Center is a small club with a REALLY BIG heart for getting things done! This year was a warm up for next year when they host the worlds for this group. I think the Classes have chosen wizely. Clearwater has been the best kept sailing secret for years.

Many international teams use the Center already for their training since we have great sailing all year round. You can count our bad sailing days....not many! The water access is great and can offer a variety of conditions between the bay and the Gulf of Mexico.

All I can say is GOOD ON YOU! Clearwater Community Sailing Center....JOB WELL DONE!
Posted By: Marty M

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/09/15 02:09 AM

Sounds like they did a great job. Must have been very enjoyable. I mean all the extras, and the type of extras, usually really make the event community building. That makes a different kind of difference. Not to be taken lightly.

Thanks Clearwater Community Sailing Center
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/09/15 07:27 PM

Sadly, it used to be the norm to provide all the things mentioned. Small orgs, and particularly cat fleets, are used to running regattas this way, other organizations, not so much...

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/09/15 08:01 PM

Thumbs up to CCSC.

Props to SSS (Sarasota Sailing Squadron) as well. Good parking, clubhouse, showers, dockage, good F16 fleet. Great bay sailing.

I support clubs like you mentioned for those reasons. Even if I do have to tolerate PHRF and fuzzy math. I know my $$ is going to a good operation.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/09/15 08:14 PM

it was nice to see all 16 boats on the line and to watch all the spins popping out one after another... fast (FAST) professional tacking was neat to see too

my (non sailing) friend took this pic - he was clueless as to what was going on
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 02/09/15 08:16 PM

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2015/02/08/mini-olympics-clearwater-north-americans/
Posted By: P.M.

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/25/15 08:57 PM

Where is JC in all this?
http://www.ussailing.org/athletes-named-to-2015-us-sailing-team-sperry-and-development-team/
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/26/15 03:15 PM



Team selection was based on results at the Miami World Cup event. JC didn't have a great week and missed out on selection for this year.

Having talked to a team member, sounds like the Nacra 17s are getting minimal if any funding for this year based on no teams making the gold fleet at the last worlds. Logistics support is helpful, but the lack of monetary support hurts.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/26/15 04:18 PM

The article says the Olympic team was selected from two events: ISAF Worlds in Santander, and the event in Miami. The Development team (USSDT) was selected only from their results in Miami. None of the teams had a "great" showing in Miami, that's for sure. Really tough for folks like JC with so much time invested.

Here is the team for the Nacra 17 (Mixed Two-Person Multihull):

Michael Easton (Bedford, Mass.) and Katie Pettibone (Port Huron, Mich.)

Sarah Newberry (Miami, Fla.) and Matthew Whitehead (Panama City, Fla.)

USSDT: Jeremy Wilmot (Newport, R.I.) and Louisa Chafee (Warwick, R.I.)

All of these folks have obviously spent time, money and effort preparing as well, and deserve our full support.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/26/15 11:54 PM

The US team selection is about money and marketing and status... Nothing to sneeze at... BUT..
the team that qualifies the USA at the N17 worlds is the hot ticket.

By definition ... they will have been the top US Team and jump to the front of the ISAF USA rankings.

Nothing stops JC, Mendelbrot or Guliari from getting their teams better and jumping to the front of the pack. You can't say that one team has a stranglehold on the slot ... best in the US...based on recent results

Hopefully one of the 6 teams will figure it out and jump into a top 10 slot in the world. This is a similar circumstance as Randy Smyths retirement. I seem to remember about 5 teams fighting before Johnny and Charlie won out.... and it still took 8 years to get a medal. It is a tough road and $$$$.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/27/15 12:18 AM

Briefly speaking to JC while he's in Palma via texts, he seemed to indicate to me that its not the end of the line of his campaign. I'm guessing that these teams aren't set in stone.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/27/15 10:27 AM

The teams are set for this year, but that has zero bearing on who actually qualifies the country or who ultimately makes the Olympic team. Being on the team typically provides funding, logistics support, coaching, and increased fundraising opportunities.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/27/15 12:57 PM

Good points guys. As has been discussed here numerous times over the years, even when you're on the team, it costs a ton of your own money. Not being on the team just makes the road that much tougher, and requires a lot more personal fundraising effort. There are those who feel our results would be better if the athletes could sail full time, but the funding and programs have never materialized to make that happen on a broad scale.

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/27/15 01:49 PM

so the take-home message here, kids, is donate to the poor saps trying to represent... Sure, you're paying for their ability to sail vs. delivering newspapers, but if it was that easy you'd have signed up too.

So get off the wallet and cough up some gas/petrol money for them...

Does anyone have links to the various campaigns? I know JCs, but not sure about Sarah/Matt, Bora, and the others..
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/27/15 05:28 PM

Google does...

Mike
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/30/15 05:51 PM

Big carnage in Palma I see? Mike Easton said seven broken masts and his crew has a broken arm?
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/30/15 06:15 PM

That's not fast...

Hope she (and any others injured) heals quickly.

I need to quit my job, buy two containers of N17 masts and follow the fleet around. Could probably retire before Rio...

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/30/15 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Big carnage in Palma I see? Mike Easton said seven broken masts and his crew has a broken arm?


I saw Mike's statement that said "broken Katie...headed for MRI". I didn't see anything about an arm. Either way, not good. Mike says 40 knot gusts and I would put a good bit of faith in his wind assessment. No modern performing catamaran withstands anything approaching 40 knots turning and burning at the top of the course. Hope Katie is OK.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/30/15 06:59 PM

at 40 knots TWS, can you even see the water? Only time I was in wind like that, it was practically white-out conditions... and that was protected water.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/30/15 08:30 PM

From Bundy

"Unfortunately we are not one of these boats on their side as all these boats still have masts. We don't!! Broke our mast in the first race today along with 6 other #nacra17's. Plugged in another one ready for tomorrow." Photo @ianandrews

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd....7086157_98ad96f89233b98360b09053b2e7abc5
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/30/15 08:34 PM

How in the world did that much wind sneak up on them? They have clear wind limits, correct?

Mike
Posted By: P.M.

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/30/15 08:54 PM

Day 1 update

Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/30/15 09:23 PM

Go Sarah and Mathew..... That OCS has to just suck after spending all day in those conditions... getting a 7th in race two is a great job...

Re carnage.... I will say it again... the boat is half baked... it defines seaworthy down.... the reports speak of gusts to 25 with enormous holes making them really tough...

It is just a stupid silly boat!
Take a look at the 49ner results... you get down to the 70s before you see the string of DNC's turned in by the weekend warrior types. You don't see former medalists sidelined by a capsize...
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/30/15 10:13 PM

I thought I saw broken arm in the comments, an MRI probably doesn't make sense for that.

Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/30/15 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Go Sarah and Mathew..... That OCS has to just suck after spending all day in those conditions... getting a 7th in race two is a great job...

Re carnage.... I will say it again... the boat is half baked... it defines seaworthy down.... the reports speak of gusts to 25 with enormous holes making them really tough...

It is just a stupid silly boat!
Take a look at the 49ner results... you get down to the 70s before you see the string of DNC's turned in by the weekend warrior types. You don't see former medalists sidelined by a capsize...


40 knots isn't much of a fair test. There isn't a modern racing catamaran that would have remained upright in that....and if it did, it would be terribly boring in any other kind of wind.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 02:23 AM

Shot some texts with JC. Sounds like they broke another mast themselves. He says it was blowing 40+.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 02:41 AM

Right.... if it were 40 knots you would expect all of the fleets to have similar problems.. Nope... See 49ner fleet (either that fleet is much better OR the 49ner is basically a seaworthy small race boat.... the official reports would say 40 knots..nope they say gusts to 25. The best in the world can't keep the pointy end up in gusts to 25... and the OLYMPIC fleet of people seem to routinely need hospital care. (maybe they had a special race circle?)

What is your favorite euphemism for this kind of boat? It should be fixed for the 2020 games... (of course that assumes that sailing makes the 2020 games... they have already nixed sailing from the disabled sailing games)
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Right.... if it were 40 knots you would expect all of the fleets to have similar problems.. Nope... See 49ner fleet (either that fleet is much better OR the 49ner is basically a seaworthy small race boat.... the official reports would say 40 knots..nope they say gusts to 25. The best in the world can't keep the pointy end up in gusts to 25... and the OLYMPIC fleet of people seem to routinely need hospital care. (maybe they had a special race circle?)

What is your favorite euphemism for this kind of boat? It should be fixed for the 2020 games... (of course that assumes that sailing makes the 2020 games... they have already nixed sailing from the disabled sailing games)

Mark, the official report does say 40 knot gusts and the 49er comparison doesn't make any sense since they where racing much later in the day when the wind had decreased a lot compared to the early afternoon when the Nacra's where out.
Link to official report:
http://www.trofeoprincesasofia.org/...the-bay-of-palma/return/race-news/page/0


Two years ago I did a long distance race when halfway the weather took a turn, it quickly built from 10-15kts to 25-35+ with sustained gusts of 42kts with big shifts.
Sailing was impossible and at one point didn't even bother righting the boat anymore, eventually we where able to take the sails down and get a tow to the harbour.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Right.... if it were 40 knots you would expect all of the fleets to have similar problems.. Nope... See 49ner fleet (either that fleet is much better OR the 49ner is basically a seaworthy small race boat.... the official reports would say 40 knots..nope they say gusts to 25. The best in the world can't keep the pointy end up in gusts to 25... and the OLYMPIC fleet of people seem to routinely need hospital care. (maybe they had a special race circle?)

What is your favorite euphemism for this kind of boat? It should be fixed for the 2020 games... (of course that assumes that sailing makes the 2020 games... they have already nixed sailing from the disabled sailing games)


Mark

kiss off. You weren't there.

kiss right off you arm chair critic.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 12:30 PM

First and foremost, how's Katie? Fingers crossed for nothing serious.

As for the rest, reading the US Sailing presser gives a better picture. Sounds like they were getting blasted by shafts of wind coming through the mountains. Paige Railiey reported wind of 25 knots in one spot, 4 knots just 100 feet away. All of the stories were about the same: shifty and huge blasts of wind.

Hard for anyone to keep any cat upright and in one piece in those conditions.

Mike
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Tony_F18

Mark, the official report does say 40 knot gusts and the 49er comparison doesn't make any sense since they where racing much later in the day when the wind had decreased a lot compared to the early afternoon when the Nacra's where out.
Link to official report:
http://www.trofeoprincesasofia.org/...the-bay-of-palma/return/race-news/page/0




Damn those annoying facts again, aye Mark?

To save yourself some typing just put "Typical MS rant here" we will know what it means... ISAF can't get their head out, the N17 is all wrong and I'm brillant and nobody listens to me.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 06:12 PM

Quote
Damn those annoying facts again, aye Mark?


I noted that their race circle could be "unique"

Quote
race committees who had to juggle with big shifts and different pressure. From 4 to 20 knots, and reaching 40 in some gusts,


Class max is 25 sustained.... so not even close to a no go decision by the RC.

For reference as to what the STANDARD used to be... ... see the medal round of the last Spanish? Tornado Olympics. Conditions were worse....25 to 30 with gusts to 40... boat... no problem managing the conditions.

Ok... how unique was the nacra course?

On the Nacra course... they report
Quote
Sailing the Nacra today proved to be quite an athletic performance with gusts reaching over 30 knots. Only ten boats managed to finish the first race in both groups where capsizes and broken equipment was a common sight.


So.... if your class rules have racing in 25... and you wipe the fleet out in with gusts to 30.... Something is simply wrong.

Its a hell of a boat when the official report has to note the knee brace worn by a medal contender for the injury suffered in the last breeze on event in miami where the same thing happened. ...

Stop making excuses... when did Olympic cat racing become a game of survivor?



Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 06:18 PM

Mark,
Have you sailed a Nacra 17 personally? Everyone I've talked to that has loves how the boat sails. SO your comments that it is "half baked" continue to be unwarranted.
I'm not saying there aren't things that can't be sorted out. But realistically these injuries are also a result of pushing the boats hard (double trapping downwind isn't easy either) in tight quarter big breeze racing. We've had F18 events in big breeze where people have gotten hurt. The speed these boats go and how fast they handle make everything much more dynamic and more room for error.
There are multiple reports of gusts to 40. It is the Nacra 17 class's job to prevent these survival scenarios at major events, so far not much has been done obviously.

Also there is no "n" in 49er.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 06:22 PM

Don't they have a name for that wind? It's catabatic for the most part, right?

I think France has the Tenerife, Cali's got the Santa Anna, the Canuks have their Chinook, etc.

I'm currently reading some historical sailing fiction which references this very type of wind off Majorca, Spain. Shows up almost instantly and rips the tops'ls apart...
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 07:08 PM

Wild

Nope... i haven't sailed a N17... and my, or any sailors fun factor is NOT THE POINT! (is the laser the best single handed dinghy out there.... Nope)

I have No argument that sailors like the boat... but that is like saying College baseball players like aluminum bats over wood bats. The game is changed and you have to choose.... MLB plays the game with wooden bats.

There was a reason that Tornado championship rules had two races per day and a set number of races in the event. Moreover, the open nature of the class rules meant that you got a boat that could survive racing in 25 to OK... gusts to 40...

That is not today's game.

Catastrophic injury and boats blowing up in a capsize change the game A LOT.... If you blow up in a race 1 with two more scheduled for the day... Your competition is over... the rest of the event is practice. You can't improve the boat... SMOD.

Now... is the reason that you blow up due to a lack of skill... or bad luck. When guys like Bundy get taken out by gusts to 30.... You should look at the design of the game... the N17 is the issue.... Worse... It could have been fixed.

Why is this crash and burn factor added by the N17 good for the sport? Would the F18 game be better if more people got hurt and more teams broke their boats racing in conditions where the RC had no reason to pull the plug?

Stop making excuses.... If you think the game is better today ... Make your case!
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 07:19 PM

I don't think the windspeed alone was the issue. From the reports I have seen the problem was very large variations in both pressure and direction that caused very sudden wipeouts. Those conditions would be very difficult in any boat. Annie Haeger said it was "worse than the Charles."

Any word on Katie's condition? I see they didn't race today.

Looks like Wilmot and JC both had a couple mid-fleet finishes, Sarah with an 8 and a digger. Hope everyone has a safe and productive rest of the week.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 09:12 PM

From Easton/Pettibone via Facebook:

"Hi all, thank you very much for your outpouring of support. A big thanks to Chris Elliot and the US Sailing team medical staff as well as Lindsay Smith and her team of doctors for looking over the MRI and giving us a diagnosis that we can understand in English. Unfortunately our regatta is done, but everyone is doing well. Katie is in full recovery mode to get her knee (PCL and meniscus) back in working order. Her knee is responding well the the PT so we hope to be back on the water soon but we'll have to wait until the full report once the docs check her out state side. To keep her mind off the knee she's also nursing an awesome/awful looking bruise on her bicep from mashing it into the shroud. Mike spent the day on the water learning as much as he could from watching the racing so we could keep our program moving forward during this setback."
Posted By: P.M.

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 09:12 PM

results
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 03/31/15 11:33 PM

Thanks for the update Jeff.

Looks like they had plenty of spare masts this time, and more manageable breeze.

Mike
Posted By: Marty M

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/01/15 12:21 AM

http://ww.sailflow.com/windandwhere.iws?regionID=1973&location_id=17599&ISection=Last+7+Days
Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/01/15 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
Thanks for the update Jeff.

Looks like they had plenty of spare masts this time, and more manageable breeze.

Mike


and possibly a wind limit that also includes a maximum allowable gust speed.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/01/15 02:12 PM

would an A-cat have survived those conditions?
Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/01/15 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
would an A-cat have survived those conditions?



bwahhhaaahahah..uh...no.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/01/15 03:20 PM

The point is that the A cat is an open rule. You get to build the boat you sail for the conditions of the championship you want to win.

If you plan to win the A cat worlds at Ilse Morada... you better have rudder foils that you can clear weed from.... Other locations... not so important. If you plan on winning the worlds held in the Gorge in Washington State...... you might beef the mast and boat up... (my pre owned mast has that feature) design and build a small sail, etc etc. Building the proper boat is part of the game... Moreover, A cats sets a 22 knot max limit. The Class B Rule spawned the Tornado design which spawned lots of builders... Tornadoes once upon the time had the reputation as being disposable boats... they Oil Canned in waves... Marstrom figured out how to build a bullet proof boat that was seaworthy for the conditions spece'd by the class.. true 25 with big gusts... Continual improvement optimized the boat for the Olympic game..

The rules determine the game...

My point is that ISAF runs this new game lock stock and barrel.... They screwed up... They believed they could get an olympic caliber boat because they were really smart.. Nope!....

The N17 boat needs a fix to restore the game to high performance sailboat racing... NOT crash and burn survivor sailing.... Or they need a rule change that lowers the wind limits plus gusts so that crash and burn don't determine the medals. (A benefit would be fewer sailors with catastrophic injuries)

My preference is to fix the boat... I am convinced that NACRA would want to fix the boat.... they would begin to sell them to weekend warriors then.

Fix the boat or fix the rules for San Paulo!
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/01/15 03:30 PM

They should have picked the Hobie 16. There, someone had to say it...

Jake, are you speculating about a new limit, or was there an NOR / SI change? I haven't had time to look.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/01/15 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
They should have picked the Hobie 16. There, someone had to say it...

Jake, are you speculating about a new limit, or was there an NOR / SI change? I haven't had time to look.

Mike


Pure speculation / suggestion on my part. As far as I know the wind limit is a sustained wind speed and doesn't account for gusts. Since most of this calamity has taken place in gusty conditions I thought maybe it would make sense to have a peak (not sustained) wind speed limit?
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/01/15 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
They should have picked the Hobie 16. There, someone had to say it...

Jake, are you speculating about a new limit, or was there an NOR / SI change? I haven't had time to look.

Mike


Pure speculation / suggestion on my part. As far as I know the wind limit is a sustained wind speed and doesn't account for gusts. Since most of this calamity has taken place in gusty conditions I thought maybe it would make sense to have a peak (not sustained) wind speed limit?


That would make sense, but only as a guide. What I mean by that is, as soon as something gets into the NOR, SIs or an amendment to those, it becomes a rule, and (unless otherwise stated), is protestable. Nothing good happens after that, and people get crazy about races being held (or not) with wind near the limits...

Mike

Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/02/15 12:36 AM

It's still up to the fleet to leave, and the RC to send them out.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/02/15 12:56 AM

Katie had a bad contusion on her arm and the MRI was for her knee, PCL/Meniscus damage.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/02/15 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
It's still up to the fleet to leave, and the RC to send them out.


Right...

Prefacing this with I'm not there...

Historically, at these types of international events, it's never quite that easy. You either get some yahoo who goes out and everyone follows, or the RC with delusions of grandeur, or an OA who won't allow it.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/02/15 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
It's still up to the fleet to leave, and the RC to send them out.


Right...

Prefacing this with I'm not there...

Historically, at these types of international events, it's never quite that easy. You either get some yahoo who goes out and everyone follows, or the RC with delusions of grandeur, or an OA who won't allow it.

Mike


There's always somebody with "Flight of the Valkyries" running on a continuous loop in their head.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/02/15 02:25 PM

The quality of the racing game is what is important. A fair level playing field with equipment that lets the best sailor win and minimizes bad luck WAS the standard.

So... change the boat.... or change the rules of the game.

ISAF has changed the rules of the game for cats before... TornadoAlive reminded me... they lowered the Tornado class min rule of 5 knots... this opened the door to midget sailing or Code zero chutes for China.. The USA went with code zeros and it failed miserably

There is the standard 25 knot wind limit in the N17 class rules now. If you turn down the volume on that Wagner loop running in your head.... ISAF could lower it to 20 and go racing.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/02/15 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
There's always somebody with "Flight of the Valkyries" running on a continuous loop in their head.


I like the smell of epoxy in the morning ...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/02/15 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
It's still up to the fleet to leave, and the RC to send them out.

If i was competing at this level, and for future job/career support, nothing would stop me unless i was ordered not to race
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/02/15 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
There's always somebody with "FlightRide of the Valkyries" running on a continuous loop in their head.


Nah, more like "O Fortuna"

Reminds me of a tall ship cannon broadside... when the 32 pounders roar out their hate... I can't even begin to imagine the terror
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/02/15 10:01 PM

Wait for it....


Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/02/15 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by MN3
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
It's still up to the fleet to leave, and the RC to send them out.

If i was competing at this level, and for future job/career support, nothing would stop me unless i was ordered not to race



I understand that. But people can certainly decide that for themselves. Is it worth f-ing up a knee, or getting maimed? Not to me, but have I zero urge to be an Olympian either.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/03/15 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
It's still up to the fleet to leave, and the RC to send them out.


Right...

Prefacing this with I'm not there...

Historically, at these types of international events, it's never quite that easy. You either get some yahoo who goes out and everyone follows, or the RC with delusions of grandeur, or an OA who won't allow it.

Mike


In Palma, they don't leave the beach until they are allowed to leave the beach (D-flag display). See Notice #8 (Amendment to the SIs).

The original SI did not include the Nacras, though - this change was made after the carnage day.

In Miami, there was a beach captain that hustled them off the beach, since they had a pretty good hike out to the race course. Then again, none of the conditions any day in MIA were bad when they left the beach. The wheels didn't come off until the second race on Monday.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/03/15 04:55 PM

Good points, Matt. Keeping folks on the beach makes a lot of sense, getting them in quickly when it gets gnarly can be quite a challenge.

Mike
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/03/15 08:22 PM

The fastest any sailboat is, on any day, is when it's headed to the bar.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/04/15 05:45 PM

Wheels came off the bus a few pages back, and there's been no discussion on the actual results. Now that it's over...

Besson looked unstoppable.

Enrique was doing great out of the gate, then tanked the last three days. Anyone know the story there?

JC had two SPI scores (presumably scoring penalties). Anyone know that story?

Sarah had another DNC mid-week. Story?

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/04/15 09:31 PM

Pretty sure Sarah was involved in a collision, but I don't know the details. I believe it was with the Austrian boat Zajac/Frank.

My guess with Enrique is that his vast experience in general really helped in the survival conditions on day one, then as the gold fleet split happened his lack of time in the 17 was exposed.

Overall for the Americans the 470s continue to show consistency at the top of their fleets, both finishing 7th. Best result yet in the FX with Henken/Scutt in 14. Paine stays consistent with a 5 in the Finn, C Buck just misses medal race in Lasers in 11, Railey showing a strong comeback to the circuit with an 8.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/05/15 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
JC had two SPI scores (presumably scoring penalties). Anyone know that story?

Probably a result of not signing out / in (picking up / dropping off the tracker) - that's what most of the SPIs were from.

The only other Standard Penalty is the non-display of the nationality flag.
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/12/15 08:34 PM

Hi readers could someone explain,

What does all this qualifying the USA for a spot in the cat class in Brazil Olys mean? Specificly;
What place does a US team need to finish in one(or more?) of the international qualifier events to get in to the Olys?
If the required inter-national finish position never happens, will the winning team from the USA selection process still be in the Olys anyway, perhaps through some other means?
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/13/15 06:37 AM

This was discussed in detail further up the thread, but basically the Nacra 17 gets 20 slots in the Olympic regatta. One of those spots goes to the host, so 19 are available. About half of those spots were allocated to nations based on finish position at the 2014 words. I believe 3 more spots are available at the 2015 worlds. The final spots will be available at a series of regional events (likely 2016 OCR).

If the US does not secure on of these spots, there will not be a US Nacra 17 representative in Brazil.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/13/15 02:19 PM

aka... Eddie the Eagle rule!
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/13/15 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
aka... Eddie the Eagle rule!


crap... that was my only chance...!
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/13/15 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
aka... Eddie the Eagle rule!


crap... that was my only chance...!


That you knew the reference without google is Proof that you are an old fart!
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/14/15 12:38 AM

So, roughly they, the US cat team, need to get above 20th in the future worlds/ocr to get into the top third, and there are 7 more open spots .
Also there probably are not 7 better countries so the US is ok assuming the top 1/3 thing is no problem.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/14/15 01:51 AM

Top 30 will probably do it.

It is pretty safe to assume there will be:

3-4 Aussie teams
4 French teams
4 British teams
3 Italian teams

So even if you assumed just one team in the top 30 from other countries that still leaves 14 different countries in the top 30. 14+ the 4 teams listed is still only 18 countries.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/14/15 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by jollyrodgers
So, roughly they, the US cat team, need to get above 20th in the future worlds/ocr to get into the top third, and there are 7 more open spots .
Also there probably are not 7 better countries so the US is ok assuming the top 1/3 thing is no problem.


It's not that simple. Only three slots are available at the 2015 Worlds. If the US does not get one of those 3 slots, there will be a continental qualifier with one spot.

So, there are only 4 remaining spots available to the US.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/14/15 03:08 AM

Is there a list somewhere of who has already qualified?

Top ten countries at the worlds appears to be:

1.France
2. Argentina
3. Australia
4. Italy
5. New Zealand
6. Switzerland
7. Britain
8. Denmark
9. Austria
10. Netherlands
--------------------
11. Portugal
12. Russia
13. German
14. Greece
15. USA
16. Canada
etc.

If this list is right and reflects the current qualifications. The a US team will have to jump a couple of rungs and if they cant they'd be best off if the Canadian team did.

If your goal was to go to the Olympics and you didn't care about country. Then the trick would be to find a way to represent an Island in the Pacific. With Australia and New Zealand both qualified the Oceania slot is wide open.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/14/15 04:55 AM

I worked all that out in another thread, would have to search for it
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/15/15 12:57 AM

Perhaps my question is; do they have to finish above a certain position like top ten or does the qualifying finish position move downward based on the top ten being filled by all qualified nations?*
It won't mater any if the later regional qualifier doesn't have as much competition as a previous worlds, and US teams finish top ten.

*but not down below the top 20-30 or 1/3
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/15/15 03:50 AM

It only matters where they finish relative to other unqualified nations.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/15/15 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


That you knew the reference without google is Proof that you are an old fart!


I actually vaguely recall seeing his "awesome" performance on TV. Nothing like a beer-gut going down the slope.

Anyone remember who it was in the "agony of defeat" ski wreck? Was that ABC sports Olympic commercial? And who was the announcer? You'll never forget his enunciation...
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/15/15 05:09 PM

From memory it was wide world of sports on Sundays maybe nbc. Possibly Kurt Goudy was an announcer on the show.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/15/15 06:24 PM

ABC and Keith Jackson? don't know I ever knew the name of the downhill skier wiping out.

Obviously we want to be one of the top three remaining countries at IsAF N17 worlds.. If not that... we would would want Canada and Puerto Rico to both be in the top three... that leaves the US Fighting central american teams and the islands for the last remaining slot in the regional allocation... It would suck if the next Miami OCR is winner take all against Canada, Puerto Rico and Central America for the one remaining slot.
Posted By: catman

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/15/15 08:23 PM

Jim McKay
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/16/15 12:13 PM

This is what came up on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKEDD1i4oGk


Edit: Sorry for the hijack.
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/16/15 12:17 PM

I like this one better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asxr5v9arH4
Posted By: Timbo

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/16/15 01:00 PM

The skier was Victor Bogataj...I think.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/16/15 01:40 PM

I just remembered the announcer I was thinking of....

Howard Cosell...
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/17/15 10:11 PM

Thanks for the info.
Here's hoping that the US cat team leaps the next level soon, and beats who they need to beat in the next worlds. Assuming that is how the coach would approach the situation of beating the specific teams that they will need to beat.
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/23/15 06:44 AM

Sarah and Matthew are racing at the Hyeres World Cup this week. They are the only US Nacra 17 team there. I know Katie is still out with an injury, not sure about other teams. I believe it is limited entry.

Results: http://www.sailing.org/worldcup/reg...;includeref=regattaevents#results__18093

Not a bad first day in what sounded like light and tricky conditions, which haven't been the best for Sarah/Matthew in the past (IMHO).
Posted By: mbounds

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/23/15 05:55 PM

Was watching them today on the live tracker and they rounded the first weather mark in the lead, but jibed away almost immediately and lost a lot of ground.

Rounded the gate in ~ 10th and finished in 12th. Luke Ramsay (Canada) won the race. Not too shabby for the North American teams.
Posted By: brucat

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/24/15 01:13 PM

The real question is, what is Besson doing that no one else seems to be able to match?

Mike
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 04/26/15 09:37 AM

Enjoyed watching the Nacra 17 medal race live this evening. The top teams are so smooth and fast- no jumps, no drama. It was a pleasure to watch.

A couple things I noticed:
1. Billy plays the main downwind like a madman. Big armfuls in and out on every single wave. They were lower and faster than every boat in the fleet.
2. I thought I trap pretty low... I have a long way to go
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 05/29/15 07:47 PM

Seems like Sarah/Matt are having a pretty darn good week
http://www.deltalloydregatta.org/results-nacra17/
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 06/24/15 03:22 PM

Live coverage of the N17 fleet at Keil week from SAP..
JC and Kristin and the Mendelbrats are racing this week.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=164792#entry4987697

last segment of the coverage...

The commentary is priceless....

My favorite was the discussion of the old men on the helms.... relative to the young ladies on the front of the boat.... its about experience right now....(yeah... that's the ticket)

but... you can also appreciate the commentary on my favorite issues...

That ISAF should have a scandel with a 30K euro boat... JC is renting a mast for 75 per day.. since a new one is 7K. er... affordable... NOT.

about the several wheelies in 12 to 15 and flat water
Some say its unstable.... and bad designed... the sailors say its a challenge... no matter... It is one design... so just go out and sail it... they love the challenge.... its about getting to Rio.

Its like sailing a unicycle...

The foils vary slightly and getting a good set of foils is critical because you need the exact angle of attack to be both fast and semi stable.

Oh... look how flexible the boat is ... bending in the waves..

Well... they are stuck until Brazil.
Hey... the empower is just brilliant in his new set of clothes...






Posted By: David Ingram

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 06/24/15 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Live coverage of the N17 fleet at Keil week from SAP..
JC and Kristin and the Mendelbrats are racing this week.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=164792#entry4987697

last segment of the coverage...

The commentary is priceless....

My favorite was the discussion of the old men on the helms.... relative to the young ladies on the front of the boat.... its about experience right now....(yeah... that's the ticket)

but... you can also appreciate the commentary on my favorite issues...

That ISAF should have a scandel with a 30K euro boat... JC is renting a mast for 75 per day.. since a new one is 7K. er... affordable... NOT.

about the several wheelies in 12 to 15 and flat water
Some say its unstable.... and bad designed... the sailors say its a challenge... no matter... It is one design... so just go out and sail it... they love the challenge.... its about getting to Rio.

Its like sailing a unicycle...

The foils vary slightly and getting a good set of foils is critical because you need the exact angle of attack to be both fast and semi stable.

Oh... look how flexible the boat is ... bending in the waves..

Well... they are stuck until Brazil.
Hey... the empower is just brilliant in his new set of clothes...



Feel better now? Did you get it out of your system? Because I worry Mark you're special to me.
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 06/25/15 05:25 AM

Mark... not trying to start an argument here but I think that as I've requested in the past (before I was working for Nacra) you should talk to some Nacra 17 sailors, they all do love the boat and little to no qualms about breaking masts.
The top sailors realized how to go faster downwind in sustained 25+ (which they shouldn't be sailing in according to class rules anyways) "round the windward mark, crank cunningham as tight as it can go, rotate out to about the shroud, double trap and send it"
I really don't know what the commentators issue is. The said 30K USD not Euro... boats are about 28K USD... with a carbon mast it's not much more than an F18.
Masts are about $5,800 USD, a 49er mast is about $4,500 (and boat is about 26K) and it's a twig and I'm pretty sure they've broke a lot more than the N17. Really not an unreasonable price. Better than the Nacra 20 mast by almost half!
JC is renting a mast because we had a 2 week backorder, he'll have a new one next week.
Hope this clears the air on some questions.
-Todd
Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 06/25/15 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by wildtsail7
Mark... not trying to start an argument here but I think that as I've requested in the past (before I was working for Nacra) you should talk to some Nacra 17 sailors, they all do love the boat and little to no qualms about breaking masts.
The top sailors realized how to go faster downwind in sustained 25+ (which they shouldn't be sailing in according to class rules anyways) "round the windward mark, crank cunningham as tight as it can go, rotate out to about the shroud, double trap and send it"
I really don't know what the commentators issue is. The said 30K USD not Euro... boats are about 28K USD... with a carbon mast it's not much more than an F18.
Masts are about $5,800 USD, a 49er mast is about $4,500 (and boat is about 26K) and it's a twig and I'm pretty sure they've broke a lot more than the N17. Really not an unreasonable price. Better than the Nacra 20 mast by almost half!
JC is renting a mast because we had a 2 week backorder, he'll have a new one next week.
Hope this clears the air on some questions.
-Todd


Dangit Todd! There you go, letting facts get in the way of a great tirade. ;-) (nice clearing of the air).
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 06/25/15 06:11 PM

No question... the n17 sailors love the boat... just like the Tornado sailors loved their boat.

The commentators made this point. (and I restated that point).

The cost issues relate to ISAF's objective which was to expand the disicipline to new countries... they failed in their objective the package was supposed to be available in the cycle for under 25k euro.

The performance issues are grounded in your philosophy of what the olympic competiton is about. I take the point of view that the boat should NOT be the factor in deciding medals.... boats that are unstable (wheelies and nose dives on the run) like the N17 with equipment that can fail (mast) in a crash in 25k are not the right boat. Bad luck will determine medals in breeze on conditions. Other people disagree.

The new issue raised in the commentary is the belief that the boards vary in performance and getting the right boards is essential. How many boards are teams going through to find that "just right board"?

Posted By: Jake

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 06/25/15 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


The new issue raised in the commentary is the belief that the boards vary in performance and getting the right boards is essential. How many boards are teams going through to find that "just right board"?



Mark, that's the nature of competition at this level. In every Olympic class at every point we've heard of going through masts, hulls, sails, foils, etc. to get "just the right one". I don't think anything you do will keep the guys with the decently funded campaigns from doing exactly that. The fact that this is taking place with foils is less of a knock on Nacra as much as it is a normal function of Olympic sailing.
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 06/25/15 08:15 PM

I think that i heard the commentary about the boards, but i took it to mean that the AOI and AOA of the boards doesn't always come out the same in each boat. That would be adjusted in the trunks presumably. Molded carbon boards should all be very similar provided the same lay up is used in each set.
The interesting thing is that they were calling them foilers rather than skimmers, which strictly speaking is what they are.

If you think that a N17 is less stable than a 49er, i would argue with you based on the footage of the finals in the China games, and the fact that the 49ers will flip over if left floating by themselves with the sails up-uncleated.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 06/25/15 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


The new issue raised in the commentary is the belief that the boards vary in performance and getting the right boards is essential. How many boards are teams going through to find that "just right board"?



Mark, that's the nature of competition at this level. In every Olympic class at every point we've heard of going through masts, hulls, sails, foils, etc. to get "just the right one". I don't think anything you do will keep the guys with the decently funded campaigns from doing exactly that. The fact that this is taking place with foils is less of a knock on Nacra as much as it is a normal function of Olympic sailing.


I've been told that some laser olympians will order two dozen mast sections and pick one or two from the lot to use.
Posted By: cyberspeed

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 06/26/15 03:08 AM

I raced cars that had "sealed" motors that were "all the same" to keep costs down. The teams with more money would buy a bunch of motors and keep the motors they liked. There is nothing wrong with that, it is within the rules. That is just the nature of sport at the higher level.
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 06/26/15 04:45 AM

European MSRP Is below 25k euros by quite a bit
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: US N17 fleet in flux before Miami OCR cut day. - 06/26/15 09:36 AM

There are quite a few affordable slightly used 2nd hand N17s on the market here in Europe but outside the Olympic circuit the class is not really catching on.
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