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Mobile bay regatta

Posted By: dave mosley

Mobile bay regatta - 04/26/15 06:00 PM

I just read there were 10 cats in the regatta, any word on these guys?
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/26/15 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by dave mosley
I just read there were 10 cats in the regatta, any word on these guys?


You talking about the Daulphin Island race? I heard it got nasty with a storm...people missing but I don't know anything else.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/26/15 07:19 PM

Based on some Facebook posts it sounds like the cat sailors are all ok.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...sing-alabama-after-boats-capsize-n348481
Posted By: tshan

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/26/15 08:30 PM

Connor Gaston, who was quoted in the article, is a H16 sailor (Along with his dad and uncle). Andy Humphries (f18) and Rundell Curtis (T) were also there. It would Be interesting to hear their stories. Usually, the multihulls are done way before 4:30, at least that is my recollection.

ETA: Rundell was sailing with Andy, not on a T.
Posted By: mbounds

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 12:01 PM

All the cat sailors are OK. Fairly certain that the two fatalities came from a Cal 25 that capsized and sank (from the thread going on Sailing Anarchy).

Mike McNeir's Hobie 20 was totaled.
[Linked Image]

An 18 HT essentially suffered the same fate:
[Linked Image]

I saw on the ABC morning news this AM a dismasted Hobie 16 being towed in by a keelboat.

The video taken from a boat when the storm hit is pretty scary - not only the weather, but the lack of preparedness the crew showed. No life jackets, no foul weather gear, no harnesses - there was one old guy just sitting in the **** in jeans and a light rain jacket when it's blowing 60+, horizontal rain and lightning all around.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 01:15 PM

Connor posted on the beachcats
"I was out there in the storm on our H16. All the cat sailors are fine. I know an 18HT Javelin and a Hobie 20 were damaged beyond repair. I've seen pictures of the Javelin but not the 20.. Stuff was ridiculous where we were. Honestly it was much more intense than any of the videos I have seen from other boats. The best way I can describe it is based on what I saw on the radar on my phone shortly before we got hit. There was one smallish area on the radar that was in the red. Dauphin island was more in the green radar area. Our boat and my uncle's boat were literally in the red area when we encountered the storm.
Someone from al.com wants to talk to me tomorrow so I'll post up the interview when I find it posted. My uncle Ron also talked with the Mobile press register.. There was a phone interview I did with the local NBC 15 news station that aired yesterday"

I too was shocked watching the video, no lifejackets in a crazy storm?

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...TE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-04-26-16-21-21
Posted By: bacho

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 01:46 PM

So your on a beach cat and you see this coming fast, gettong to shore is not an option. What do you do?
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 01:57 PM

Turtle and hang on for dear life???
Posted By: brucat

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 02:03 PM

Everyone's worst nightmare, that's for sure. CNN is saying there are 5 people missing, is that accurate?

I want to say we've discussed this fairly recently, but there's an age-old debate about whether it's smarter to intentionally capsize in a T-storm.

From the other side, this will result in another CG investigation, I'm sure US Sailing has already been contacted. Regatta safety plans will be reviewed, etc.

Does your regatta have a safety plan? Everyone wants to be responsible for their own safety, but when this stuff happens, the CG fully expects the RC/OA to know exactly who is missing, and where they need to be searching.

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Redtwin
Turtle and hang on for dear life???


I've been running this scenario through in my head since this happened.

Turtling the boat is probably the best option, but the tricky part is going to be to predict that this is what you need to do. Once that wind hits, I doubt you are going to be able to get the boat turtle because the wind will be so strong that the boat will just keep flipping and/or right itself. Even if you did predict it and get it turtled, I'm not convinced that the boat would stay inverted once the sea state gets rolling. You would also risk filling the mast with water if you did manage to keep it submerged for the duration of that weather and then righting it could be an issue if you made it through (but you would still be a little better off on a more visible boat and somewhat out of the water). So, maybe try it but be prepared to quickly abandon the boat if it rights itself. If the wind is already cranking, I would give up on the thought of turtling the boat.

You can't really drop the jib on a lot of our boats and even if you could, the mast and hull windage alone is probably enough to toss the boat. Reducing sail by dropping the main would be an option up to about 40 knots windspeed (jib only), maybe 45 knots if you cut the jib loose and let it flog to pieces... but dropping all the sails wouldn't help you in that kind of severe storm on a small light catamaran. The tricky thing here, again, is predicting how bad that storm front was going to get. Your options are more limited on the catamaran (vs. monohull) to change things when the wind starts to build to the point where it is a problem.

Having the correct gear is going to be essential because I think you would just end up abandoning the boat (intentionally or not). VHF, EPIRB, flotation....finding a quick way to carry some hydration might be a good idea too. Some line so you and your crew can secure yourselves together (which you should already pack in your pfd for various purposes). You could be afloat for a while - focus early on retaining as much body heat as possible. If you got caught in the severe part of that storm, you would probably just need to abandon the boat in a controlled manner so you and your crew can stay together and minimize the risk of injury as the boat becomes less boat and more projectile.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 02:35 PM

Mobile Bay is so shallow, that I'm not sure turtling is an option. Everywhere I've sailed is 10 ft or less, except in the shipping channel.

David and I have managed to drop the main, and run downwind with the Jib in 40+, but that's not nearly the pressure that 60+ is. That is what I would probably try first, but I'm not sure what the answer is in that situation.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 02:36 PM

This gives me another thought too. I had intended to pack my flares in a drybag on the rear trampoline storage bag. I could set that drybag up as a bit of a ditch bag and put in a few spare water bottles, rope, etc. Hmmm...I wonder what I would want to have in that little bag.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
This gives me another thought too. I had intended to pack my flares in a drybag on the rear trampoline storage bag. I could set that drybag up as a bit of a ditch bag and put in a few spare water bottles, rope, etc. Hmmm...I wonder what I would want to have in that little bag.


Dye marker, signal mirror and the inflatable orange sausage divers use. It rolls up slightly larger than a cell phone.

You're carrying water/food in your camelbak, right? So maybe redundancy in the ditch bag.

Some cash in the ditch bag is probably a good idea, too.

I guess the remainder of contents would depend on how far you intend to wander in the boat... Maybe a backup PLB? Flashlight?
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz


David and I have managed to drop the main, and run downwind with the Jib in 40+, but that's not nearly the pressure that 60+ is. That is what I would probably try first, but I'm not sure what the answer is in that situation.


My brother and I did that on the N20 at Hogsbreath after flipping several times when that front rolled through. Much less dramatic than that Dauphin storm. Only about 30 with gusts, and we were on the bay side, so the water was probably only about 2 foot chop.

Rolled the jib and dropped the main. Still clipped downwind on bare poles at 6+ kts. Once we got the main down and lashed to the tramp, the lightning was my biggest concern.

I guess if it was blowing 60+ I'd be concerned that the wind would get under the tramp and flip it (even with the sails down)....especially if there were large seas which would likely catch the trampoline at the crest?

And all you Worrell/Tybee veterans... Surely you faced rather ugly conditions out in the ocean... How did you handle white-out squalls?

I know one of you got dismasted and jury-rigged a sail to get back to land...
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Jake
This gives me another thought too. I had intended to pack my flares in a drybag on the rear trampoline storage bag. I could set that drybag up as a bit of a ditch bag and put in a few spare water bottles, rope, etc. Hmmm...I wonder what I would want to have in that little bag.


Dye marker, signal mirror and the inflatable orange sausage divers use. It rolls up slightly larger than a cell phone.

You're carrying water/food in your camelbak, right? So maybe redundancy in the ditch bag.

Some cash in the ditch bag is probably a good idea, too.

I guess the remainder of contents would depend on how far you intend to wander in the boat... Maybe a backup PLB? Flashlight?


Most of those sausages are designed to be filled with air from the scuba tanks, I believe...and I'm not sure how much they would add to your visibility from the air (I presume this would be the primary means you get spotted?)...dye marker and signal mirror are definitely good things.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 03:41 PM

There's a roll-out orange thing too. I forget what it's called, but it essentially acts like a dye marker.

Mike
Posted By: tback

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Jake
This gives me another thought too. I had intended to pack my flares in a drybag on the rear trampoline storage bag. I could set that drybag up as a bit of a ditch bag and put in a few spare water bottles, rope, etc. Hmmm...I wonder what I would want to have in that little bag.


Dye marker, signal mirror and the inflatable orange sausage divers use. It rolls up slightly larger than a cell phone.

You're carrying water/food in your camelbak, right? So maybe redundancy in the ditch bag.

Some cash in the ditch bag is probably a good idea, too.

I guess the remainder of contents would depend on how far you intend to wander in the boat... Maybe a backup PLB? Flashlight?


Most of those sausages are designed to be filled with air from the scuba tanks, I believe...and I'm not sure how much they would add to your visibility from the air (I presume this would be the primary means you get spotted?)...dye marker and signal mirror are definitely good things.


The "safety sausage" is known as a Surface Marker Buoy. They can be inflated by either free flowing the regulator into the base or it also has a manual blow up stem.


Surface Marker Buoy on Amazon.com
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 05:46 PM

I would think riding it out with the boat on it's side would be the best. The likelihood of keeping it upright is slim to none, but I've only ridden out wind like that for ten minutes on a smaller lake. So no big waves. The wind was reported to be 60mph, but I don't believe it was actually that high where I was either.

I do think that no matter how many times you run a scenario through your head, the reality will always be different. Location, severity of the weather, and who you are with, then throw whatever level of exhaustion you've got going on top of all that. Any level of preparedness certainly won't hurt though. What I'm getting at, is there isn't a set answer, just the hindsight of what should've been done differently.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I would think riding it out with the boat on it's side would be the best. The likelihood of keeping it upright is slim to none, but I've only ridden out wind like that for ten minutes on a smaller lake. So no big waves. The wind was reported to be 60mph, but I don't believe it was actually that high where I was either.

I do think that no matter how many times you run a scenario through your head, the reality will always be different. Location, severity of the weather, and who you are with, then throw whatever level of exhaustion you've got going on top of all that. Any level of preparedness certainly won't hurt though. What I'm getting at, is there isn't a set answer, just the hindsight of what should've been done differently.


While I have no direct evidence, I would be a little concerned that the boat might self-right if you leave it on it's side. Frankly, I was pretty concerned about it when we flipped in what was gusting to 36knots during a steeplechase several years ago. It only required a slight flinch to right it. Maybe if you can sit on the mast and hold it down? (that is, if you don't lose the boat in the process as it will be flying through the water even on its side)
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 08:23 PM

Self righting could definitely be an issue. I had a H16 do it, but not anything else. Yet. I wouldn't rule it out as a possibility, but if it goes turtle, it likely won't stay that way too when it's that windy and rough. If it can't go turtle, and upright isn't an option, you're left with either being on it's side, or abandoning. Abandoning is less than ideal. laugh
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 08:25 PM

I don't ever want to be in that situation. Those kinds of winds, for that long would be some scary sh!t, and I'd consider myself lucky to survive it on a beachcat.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I don't ever want to be in that situation. Those kinds of winds, for that long would be some scary sh!t, and I'd consider myself lucky to survive it on a beachcat.


I agree. I think the boat is literally going to roll across the top of the water like a tumbleweed in that kind of wind until it starts to break apart...so while abandoning it is less than ideal, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it when it's in that action.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 09:07 PM

I can't think of any situation where intentionally abandoning would be better than staying with the boat (except maybe when it's headed for a seawall or large rocks). Your survival odds are exponentially better with the boat than floating in the water.

The boat will give you a place to stay dry(er), and will help rescuers find you.

If the water isn't deep enough to turtle, let it snap the mast, then turtle. If the boat is inverted, and you sit on the windward side, it should stay inverted. Don't sit on the leeward side, or it will come up.

Shouldn't be a tumbleweed unless it's on its side, then all bets are off.

Mike
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I don't ever want to be in that situation. Those kinds of winds, for that long would be some scary sh!t, and I'd consider myself lucky to survive it on a beachcat.


I agree. I think the boat is literally going to roll across the top of the water like a tumbleweed in that kind of wind until it starts to break apart...so while abandoning it is less than ideal, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it when it's in that action.



True. That's a recipe for getting tangled in something, getting the snot kicked out of you, then drowning.

So, bring some big butt wire cutters, and at the first sign of a storm, cut the rig lose and just float along on the platform? Tough to tell when that point has arrived too. Hindsight again.

btw Jake, If I sound snarky, I'm not trying to.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I would think riding it out with the boat on it's side would be the best. The likelihood of keeping it upright is slim to none, but I've only ridden out wind like that for ten minutes on a smaller lake. So no big waves. The wind was reported to be 60mph, but I don't believe it was actually that high where I was either.

I do think that no matter how many times you run a scenario through your head, the reality will always be different. Location, severity of the weather, and who you are with, then throw whatever level of exhaustion you've got going on top of all that. Any level of preparedness certainly won't hurt though. What I'm getting at, is there isn't a set answer, just the hindsight of what should've been done differently.


While I have no direct evidence, I would be a little concerned that the boat might self-right if you leave it on it's side. Frankly, I was pretty concerned about it when we flipped in what was gusting to 36knots during a steeplechase several years ago. It only required a slight flinch to right it. Maybe if you can sit on the mast and hold it down? (that is, if you don't lose the boat in the process as it will be flying through the water even on its side)


I've had an N20 self-right in about 20knots, maybe 25knots of wind. (Where it proceeded to run right into the back of the tow vessel - yeah not my proudest moment)
Posted By: tshan

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/27/15 09:29 PM

Andy got to shore on his C2. Jib is "toast" and has a hole in the window of the main. They could not get the sails down in the wind. Somehow they kept the boat in place.

F18ht from Mississippi, I think:
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Mlcreek

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 01:39 AM

Two questions for possible solutions

1-pull the pin on a shroud and drop the mast

2-flip the boat on the side and the skipper stays with the hulls and crew ties off to the top of the mast preventing it from righting

Would either work?

Thanks
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 02:16 AM

Pulling a shroud pin to drop the mast is probably the best/quickest/safest way to drop the stick but I would still want to flip the boat over, just to keep the tramp down low, as in under water, and then just sit between the hulls on the underside of the tramp, using the mast/sails underwater as a sea anchor.

I think the biggest 'problem' in this event was recognition. Nobody knew the winds would turn out to be 80mph. I've been out when 'a storm was coming' and you can usually see them coming from a ways off, you'll certainly hear it if there's lightning in it... but I'm usually thinking, is it going to be 20mph...or 30...or maybe 40? But 80?? I never would have thought it would have been blowing THAT hard!

I think that's probably why so many guys were caught up short of taking the sails down, etc, hindsight is always 20-20.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Pulling a shroud pin to drop the mast is probably the best/quickest/safest way to drop the stick but I would still want to flip the boat over, just to keep the tramp down low, as in under water, and then just sit between the hulls on the underside of the tramp, using the mast/sails underwater as a sea anchor.

I think the biggest 'problem' in this event was recognition. Nobody knew the winds would turn out to be 80mph. I've been out when 'a storm was coming' and you can usually see them coming from a ways off, you'll certainly hear it if there's lightning in it... but I'm usually thinking, is it going to be 20mph...or 30...or maybe 40? But 80?? I never would have thought it would have been blowing THAT hard!

I think that's probably why so many guys were caught up short of taking the sails down, etc, hindsight is always 20-20.


Indeed - a lot of racers might be inclined to approach that storm with a little more "yee-haw!". I remember a Tybee500 start with a fairly significant storm cell just offshore and to the North. It was cranking on the beach for the start. Mischa and others headed right for the storm cell offshore. I thought they were crazy. I finished about 4 hours behind them that day and re-evaluated my desire to stay away from those storms.

And, BTW, I would never recommend tying yourself to the boat.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Pulling a shroud pin to drop the mast is probably the best/quickest/safest way to drop the stick but I would still want to flip the boat over, just to keep the tramp down low, as in under water, and then just sit between the hulls on the underside of the tramp, using the mast/sails underwater as a sea anchor.

I think the biggest 'problem' in this event was recognition. Nobody knew the winds would turn out to be 80mph. I've been out when 'a storm was coming' and you can usually see them coming from a ways off, you'll certainly hear it if there's lightning in it... but I'm usually thinking, is it going to be 20mph...or 30...or maybe 40? But 80?? I never would have thought it would have been blowing THAT hard!

I think that's probably why so many guys were caught up short of taking the sails down, etc, hindsight is always 20-20.


So you're going to intentionally destroy your boat so the storm doesn't? Great idea. Apparently those proposing this have never been on a dismasted boat. The rig and sails will destroy a lot besides themselves in conditions way more benign than what they had last weekend. Like was said earlier by Karl the 2nd, you deal with it as it comes with the parameters at that time. The armchair quarterbacking here is almost as bad as SA.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 03:40 AM

Earlier today we had a 'fast mover' come through with very little lead time, and I had been watching the radar very closely as I put in a 25 mile bike ride and was thinking about going sailing too. Well, the wind died, and I could see some weather building up to the west of my house, moving east, so instead of going sailing, I went to the grocery store.

30 minutes later, I was coming out of the store, and I looked to the west, and it was getting dark (at 4pm), so I knew someone was coming, but the winds were still calm, no far off thunder.

I get home, stow the groceries, and take the 4 dogs out back to pee and feed them...

That's when I heard the first CRACK/BOOM of some far off lightning. Still, no rain, no wind, so I hook the dogs up and get their water and go back in the house to get their food... that's when I hear the next BIG CRASH/BANG of some close in lightning... so I run out back and bring the dogs in, just as the first rain drops are starting to fall.

I get them all in and about 2 minutes later, all hell breaks loose!

I live in FL, we see thunderstorms almost every day in the summer, but this thing was HUGE! NOT your average thunderstorm! I look out back and the trees are laid over, the lake is black, with 5' white caps, the rain is coming down in sheets, sideways. Then a few more BIG lightning strikes, and KABOOM! the power goes out. The wind was HOWLING, like Hurricane noise, and when I looked out front, I could see broken tree branches blowing down the road, in 5" of water.

Well...I was very glad I had chosen to go to the grocery store, instead of out sailing!

Didn't last too long, only about 10 minutes, then it cleared up, I was very glad my boat was tied down in the back yard! Because it was rocking and rolling, even tied down. On the evening news, they were saying the town just to the south of us (Lake Placid) was getting hail.

But this started as just a small bunch of rain, looked pretty lame on the radar, and then it blew up very fast, becoming a HUGE thunderstorm, in the span of 30 minutes, probably what happened to those guys in Alabama.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Timbo
Pulling a shroud pin to drop the mast is probably the best/quickest/safest way to drop the stick but I would still want to flip the boat over, just to keep the tramp down low, as in under water, and then just sit between the hulls on the underside of the tramp, using the mast/sails underwater as a sea anchor.

I think the biggest 'problem' in this event was recognition. Nobody knew the winds would turn out to be 80mph. I've been out when 'a storm was coming' and you can usually see them coming from a ways off, you'll certainly hear it if there's lightning in it... but I'm usually thinking, is it going to be 20mph...or 30...or maybe 40? But 80?? I never would have thought it would have been blowing THAT hard!

I think that's probably why so many guys were caught up short of taking the sails down, etc, hindsight is always 20-20.


So you're going to intentionally destroy your boat so the storm doesn't? Great idea. Apparently those proposing this have never been on a dismasted boat. The rig and sails will destroy a lot besides themselves in conditions way more benign than what they had last weekend. Like was said earlier by Karl the 2nd, you deal with it as it comes with the parameters at that time. The armchair quarterbacking here is almost as bad as SA.


If you are going to intentionally unpin a sidestay in big waves make sure you somehow unpin the windward side. We had a windward side stay break in breaking waves and the mast kept sliding across the boat to a certain point as each wave swept past then it would slide past the other way after the wave, so we had to keep jumping the mast. The rig worked as a great sea anchor once we got it off the boat still attached but we got in a lot of trouble once we fully jettisoned it.

We watched a Stingray with 28ft mast cartwheel sideways with the top of the mast touching the water and the hulls about 26ft in the air after a huge gust that smashed the fleet
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 09:49 AM

Is it unreasonable to expect someone on the RC boat to monitor the weather radar and then radio the fleet when things start to get iffy?

I guess RC would need to be in range of cell phone towers or have weather radar on the boat, or have information relayed from onshore. Would also require the competitors have VHF radios on and monitoring.

Being sensitive to changing/deteriorating conditions is something we all have to take responsibility for. But I readily admit a storm front moving at 60-80mph would be tough to avoid if you're several miles from safety.
Posted By: Mlcreek

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 12:35 PM

It's a shame we can't all be as brilliant as you! You are truly a legend.
Posted By: catman

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 01:50 PM

Couple things I wouldn't do, leave the boat or drop the mast purposely.

I understand (a little) why cats sailing around buoys don't have jib furlers. For distance racing I don't understand it at all. There's knifes, radio's, GPS and on and on yet the most important thing to do (my opinion) first is reduce sail area. Is it because it weighs too much or is it too much drag? Silly.

People practice sailing drills so they can be faster but how many practice dropping the main on the water. I know my main won't release on starboard tack but does on port tack. That's good info to know. Do you know?

Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
Pulling a shroud pin to drop the mast is probably the best/quickest/safest way to drop the stick but I would still want to flip the boat over, just to keep the tramp down low, as in under water, and then just sit between the hulls on the underside of the tramp, using the mast/sails underwater as a sea anchor.

I think the biggest 'problem' in this event was recognition. Nobody knew the winds would turn out to be 80mph. I've been out when 'a storm was coming' and you can usually see them coming from a ways off, you'll certainly hear it if there's lightning in it... but I'm usually thinking, is it going to be 20mph...or 30...or maybe 40? But 80?? I never would have thought it would have been blowing THAT hard!

I think that's probably why so many guys were caught up short of taking the sails down, etc, hindsight is always 20-20.


Indeed - a lot of racers might be inclined to approach that storm with a little more "yee-haw!". I remember a Tybee500 start with a fairly significant storm cell just offshore and to the North. It was cranking on the beach for the start. Mischa and others headed right for the storm cell offshore. I thought they were crazy. I finished about 4 hours behind them that day and re-evaluated my desire to stay away from those storms.

And, BTW, I would never recommend tying yourself to the boat.


(Turn your speakers down, wind noise)
Posted By: KevinRejda

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 02:05 PM

Mark Ederer http://www.wlox.com/story/28912528/...mobile-bay-regatta#.VT8IodveMRI.facebook
Posted By: Will_R

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 02:41 PM

So, I was in the race; a few details being left out that need to be considered.

- The DI race is an 18 mile long distance race; the more "durable" cats tend to race out on Saturday and back on Sunday. The rest of us sail back after finishing.

- The regatta host rotates between three area clubs with boats attending from all over the region; most of the cats launched from FYC, but a couple left from BYC as well. e.g. there was not a central point where all of the boats and sailors were guaranteed to be at one time.

- VHF radios were not a required item, but they did contact the skippers and request that we had one on the boat for purpose of over early notifications. Even if we had carried one, it would have been turned off and stowed; had it been turned on, I don't know that we would hear it assuming the RC did make some kind of announcement about weather.

- Due to a "hiccup" with race management, the start was postponed by an hour; looking at it now, that extra hour would have made a big difference...

- Historically entries have been as high as 175 boats; this year there were ~120 boats, of which 10 were beach cats. The cats included a N20c, highly modified T, C2 F18, Bim 18HT, H20, N17 with the balance being H16's; quite a broad range of speed there.

- We watched the forecast all week; my primary means are the NOAA marine site and wunderground. As of Saturday morning, the NOAA didn't even give a small craft advisory for Mobile Bay and simply stated, "chance of thunderstorms"; not, "HOLY SH*T, WATCH OUT!!"

We saw the line on the radar, but based on speed and distance expected that it would be there later in the evening.

- Brief synopsis of our day:
Great race conditions, somewhat windy, but nothing crazy (gusts to ~22) with a moderate chop. The boat performed better than expected and we crossed ahead of Kirk on the N20c by ~1/2 a mile with ~8 miles to go. We went for flat water and didn't tack to cover; he got a huge lift up the inside and beat us by ~5 minutes in a now light and dying breeze. We finished, turned around and put the kite up for the ride home.

Breeze came back a bit and we were clocking 15-16 downwind back to FYC; we heard thunder with about 8 miles to go and started looking at the radar. I keep my cell in a dry bag in my vest for just this reason. The storm still looked a ways off, but was closer than expected. As we went, we noticed that it had sped up since that morning and were making sure to get to the beach as quickly as possible.

We passed Kirk and hit the beach about 5 minutes before he did; pulled the boat up and started to drop cloth. He needed help getting his boat up the beach, so we went to assist before getting our own sails down. By this time lightning was CLOSE and we knew it was about to be on us.

Pulled the jib and rolled it, had the main on the deck and were starting to roll it up as well when all hell broke loose. The N20c started making it's way across the yard at the YC and was only saved by the trap wires snagging in a tree. Kirk helped us hold the boat down, but even without sails up, it took all three of us and it was still trying to get up and go. I was sitting on the stbd hull, looking up wind with one hand on the mast rotation and one on the unrolled mainsail.

As the only person with the vantage point to look up wind, I was calling flying boats and debris as stuff came our way to warn Brian and Kirk. I feel certain that we experienced 70+ mph winds and was surprised that we didn't have one of the big trees just windward of us come down. I've been outside and within 1/4 mile of a tornado and that is the closest thing that I can think of to what this was like, but instead of lasting for 60-90 seconds, the insane wind held for 5-6 minutes! We could see that out on the beach the sea state was BAD and that the wave had built to ~5'. Even with the T trying to fly away, we yelled back and forth regarding the whereabouts of the others....

Unfortunately after several minutes, I couldn't keep the mainsail down any longer with one hand, but couldn't even think about letting go of the mast. The deep chord on the Marstrom 20 mast makes it oscillate like mad in that much breeze; it would have destroyed itself and almost certainly flipped the boat had it not stayed under control. Even with it held straight into the wind, it took all three of us to hold the boat down.

The wind finally backed enough to go recover the now thrashed main (this was it's first race) and start removing debris from the boat and finish our tear down. We immediately started trying to contact the other cat sailors, but to no avail; within another 30-45 minutes though, they started to trickle in, driven by good Samaritans from where they had come ashore during the storm. The last of the "fast" boats to be accounted for was Andy and Rundell, they had sailed past the YC and had to feel their way along the shore to find the club again. Lucky for them, they hit the beach just a minute or two before the storm and were able to hold their boat down even with the sails up.

By now emergency vehicles and news crews were showing up at FYC, we decided to eat at the club and ended up talking to a couple of news crews and other sailors to start piecing together what had transpired out on the water.

Got up Sunday and went to pick up pieces of boats strewn up the coat line.

- Regarding best course of action if faced with those conditions:
Having been on the water, ~1 1/2 miles off shore when the storm hit on the last day of the Worrell in '02, I can tell you that flipping and/or turtle isn't a very fun situation. The boat was still doing 4-5 kts on it's side, which resulted in breaking the top 3-4 battens and damaging the main sail. Honestly though, you don't have a choice, there is no keeping them upright in those conditions. The boats that were destroyed were ridden "to the beach" capsized and then pile driven into rock and wood seawalls. They would have never been able to go full turtle and if they had, even more complications could have arisen; imagine now having mast, sails, rigging, loose in the water and having to negotiate that while trying to not get smashed into the shore by 6' waves filled with debris blown/washed off of nearby docks.

Best possible plan, get to shore and ride it out from there if possible.

I don't know the H16 guys, but almost all of the other cat sailors are long time friends and I consider us very lucky to have not had someone seriously injured or worse.

It's my opinion that for the most part, we, the beach cat group, were better prepared than most of the monohull guys. We're forced to deal with the elements and aren't provided with the shelter, comfort and assurance that most mono's bring. For those reasons, we tend to be more appropriately dressed for the conditions and are almost always wearing a life jacket.

The number one thing that I told the news people and we discussed as a group was that, we are our own arbiters of safety and our brain is the #1 piece of equipment we carry. Know your limits/abilities, maintain your equipment, plan within reason for the conditions and at some point, that's the best you can do short of taking up golf...
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 03:11 PM



Michael McNier http://www.wlox.com/story/28901233/...-static-electricity-while-heading-ashore
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 03:12 PM

thanks for the write up Will, glad your ok
Posted By: Will_R

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 03:53 PM

Some of my pics from the weekend: Pics
Posted By: KevinRejda

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 04:50 PM

Ronnie Gaston & crew Hana Blalack http://www.al.com/mobile/
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by ThunderMuffin
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
Pulling a shroud pin to drop the mast is probably the best/quickest/safest way to drop the stick but I would still want to flip the boat over, just to keep the tramp down low, as in under water, and then just sit between the hulls on the underside of the tramp, using the mast/sails underwater as a sea anchor.

I think the biggest 'problem' in this event was recognition. Nobody knew the winds would turn out to be 80mph. I've been out when 'a storm was coming' and you can usually see them coming from a ways off, you'll certainly hear it if there's lightning in it... but I'm usually thinking, is it going to be 20mph...or 30...or maybe 40? But 80?? I never would have thought it would have been blowing THAT hard!

I think that's probably why so many guys were caught up short of taking the sails down, etc, hindsight is always 20-20.


Indeed - a lot of racers might be inclined to approach that storm with a little more "yee-haw!". I remember a Tybee500 start with a fairly significant storm cell just offshore and to the North. It was cranking on the beach for the start. Mischa and others headed right for the storm cell offshore. I thought they were crazy. I finished about 4 hours behind them that day and re-evaluated my desire to stay away from those storms.

And, BTW, I would never recommend tying yourself to the boat.


(Turn your speakers down, wind noise)


That ended up being an excellent sailing day. I enjoyed it immensely.
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


That ended up being an excellent sailing day. I enjoyed it immensely.


Funny, I seem to remember that was the leg that turned into a 17.5 hour slogfest because my spinnaker fell apart around Vero IIRC.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 05:28 PM

Nice pics and summary Will.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mlcreek
It's a shame we can't all be as brilliant as you! You are truly a legend.


By all means ignore me, I have no experience that can be useful to you,suffer in your own ignorance.
And this is why I quit posting on here for so long.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

By all means ignore me, I have no experience that can be useful to you,suffer in your own ignorance.
And this is why I quit posting on here for so long.


Now Todd you know the rules if you're going to talk to people without a filter you can't get uppity when they don't like it.

Have a nice day you angry old f@#k :-)
Posted By: Mlcreek

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 06:51 PM

I'm not sure Todd what your problem is.....but I simply asked for advice, however you gave nothing but sarcasm which was out of place. Maybe if you checked your attitude and reversed your delivery you wouldn't be so angry.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Jake

Most of those sausages are designed to be filled with air from the scuba tanks, I believe...and I'm not sure how much they would add to your visibility from the air


Mine you can inflate manually and can be seen from a reasonable distance in moderate weather when you wave it like a madman...

don't ask me how I know. twice

a) dive boat left me 3 miles offshore
b) used to alert large vessel that felt like it was going to drive over me (while still at 20' deco stop depth. tied it to my cave line and sent it to the surface). Not sure where that boat actually was, but the engine vibration was strong enough to make my chest hurt)
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Jake

Most of those sausages are designed to be filled with air from the scuba tanks, I believe...and I'm not sure how much they would add to your visibility from the air


Mine you can inflate manually and can be seen from a reasonable distance in moderate weather when you wave it like a madman...

don't ask me how I know. twice

a) dive boat left me 3 miles offshore
b) used to alert large vessel that felt like it was going to drive over me (while still at 20' deco stop depth. tied it to my cave line and sent it to the surface). Not sure where that boat actually was, but the engine vibration was strong enough to make my chest hurt)


Good lord, man. That was hopefully enough to make you give up diving.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 07:15 PM

yeah, item b) gave me pause when considering a future in tech diving. It became less "recreation" after that.

Also, floating on your deco line for upwards of 3 hours in what amounts to open ocean reminded me too much of those little ballyhoo bait fish for big beasties that were probably circling me just out of sight...

All for a little shipwreck..? hmmm.

I limit myself now to lobster diving mostly...
Posted By: brucat

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 07:38 PM

Todd,

Armchair quarterbacking and a comparison to the great cesspool of sailing (SA)???

I really don't see much armchair quarterbacking, mostly people trying to think through what to do if faced with similar conditions. While there are probably no easy or one-size-fits-all answers to that, it's much better to think through and share ideas before needing to figure it out on the water. Believe it or not, there are other people here who have been through some pretty hairy ordeals.

As for the SA remark, I really didn't see any personal attacks (aka the hallmark of any SA thread), at least not until you came along...

Mike
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/28/15 09:49 PM

Groan.


I wish more people knew Todd in person. Look at it this way Mike, you had a pre-determined idea of who I am prior to us meeting in Rhode Island. Same deal. Todd is much more cuddly in person.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/29/15 12:00 AM

Maybe the SA reference he threw out there pushed a button, but I still think this thread has been remarkably restrained with second-guessing.

I still think we should be able to discuss these things without being bullied. This is one of the few discussions that are literally the difference between life and death.

Mike
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/29/15 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Groan.


I wish more people knew Todd in person. Look at it this way Mike, you had a pre-determined idea of who I am prior to us meeting in Rhode Island. Same deal. Todd is much more cuddly in person.

Karl, I appreciate the sentiment, but if I wanted those people to know me they would, I'm not exactly a wallflower. Maybe if people would think through what they post, before they hit the send button it would save them from some a$$hole like me calling them out for their stupid comments.I'm not angry in the least just tired of the BS that passes for knowledge.
In the future, I'll certainly refrain from correcting the deadly advise often given here. I learned my lessons the hard way and far be it for me to save any of you from those wonderful, possibly deadly experiences yourselves. You're welcome.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/29/15 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Groan.


I wish more people knew Todd in person. Look at it this way Mike, you had a pre-determined idea of who I am prior to us meeting in Rhode Island. Same deal. Todd is much more cuddly in person.


It's not knowing him in person...it's that he's not that Todd that we know on these forums for some reason. His posts are full of sarcasm and insult and then he blames us for the response he gets. I mean, seriously, there was a much nicer way to communicate that dropping the rig on the water will probably introduce more liability and risk into the situation.
Posted By: KentHobie

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/29/15 01:45 AM

Probably a stupid question but does insurance cover this kind of damage?
(To the boats not the egos.)
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/29/15 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by KentHobie
Probably a stupid question but does insurance cover this kind of damage?
(To the boats not the egos.)


I would expect so. We drove in hard into the back of a steep wave in our first tybee 500 and it put enough of the spinnaker under water that it broke the spin pole and ripped the kite irreparably. It wasn't my boat/insurance but a claim ended up with a quick settlement for a new spinnaker and pole. Frankly, I'm rather surprised at how much racing related issues insurance does cover.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/29/15 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Groan.


I wish more people knew Todd in person. Look at it this way Mike, you had a pre-determined idea of who I am prior to us meeting in Rhode Island. Same deal. Todd is much more cuddly in person.


It's not knowing him in person...it's that he's not that Todd that we know on these forums for some reason. His posts are full of sarcasm and insult and then he blames us for the response he gets. I mean, seriously, there was a much nicer way to communicate that dropping the rig on the water will probably introduce more liability and risk into the situation.


The lack of tone, inflection, and body language makes this medium a bit more difficult than others to communicate. Throw some sensitivity in there, and you can be talking to someone you've never met, and the message gets lost in the static.

Personally, cutting the rig loose would likely not cross my mind as a valid option unless it's already down, because Todd's right. A mast flopping around in the waves, semi connected to the boat is just asking for holes in what little hope you have of not being a swimmer.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/29/15 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger


Personally, cutting the rig loose would likely not cross my mind as a valid option unless it's already down, because Todd's right. A mast flopping around in the waves, semi connected to the boat is just asking for holes in what little hope you have of not being a swimmer.


I agree on the rig as well. It would not be a good idea to drop it on the water. Besides the significant risk of damage, unless you have a rig specifically designed for it, it will be unlikely you could ever stand it up again unless you get to shore.
Posted By: Mlcreek

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/29/15 02:02 PM

Karl, You are correct as to the added threat of the rig being down in the water. However, I simply asked it that option were viable as a "possible solution". By not having the racing resume of others, I'm not privy to those experiences. Therefore thought a simple offer or solution would have been met with more explanation than a hammer. I can see why other new folks shy away from a site such as these. At least you and some others on here are the saving grace.
Thanks
Posted By: dave mosley

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/29/15 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by KentHobie
Probably a stupid question but does insurance cover this kind of damage?
(To the boats not the egos.)


I would expect so. We drove in hard into the back of a steep wave in our first tybee 500 and it put enough of the spinnaker under water that it broke the spin pole and ripped the kite irreparably. It wasn't my boat/insurance but a claim ended up with a quick settlement for a new spinnaker and pole. Frankly, I'm rather surprised at how much racing related issues insurance does cover.


State farm and a family friend for an agent didn't hurt
Posted By: Mlcreek

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/29/15 02:11 PM

Jake,
You are correct your boat policy would cover for this type of damage. Mind you there are two different types of coverage on a Home Owners policy and boat policy. As a whole, your own HO policy will cover for third party liability (when you damage someone else's property) as a result of your negligence. This would include RACING. I know some will argue this fact but racing is excluded for power boats, but is a give back in the HO policy for sailboats in a race under 27'. You would need to read the liability section thoroughly for complete understanding.
As to your boat policy it not only covers for the liability section and or damages caused by you, but also the first party damages. First party are the actual damages to your boat regardless of cause unless excluded. The easiest way to determine what is covered in the boat policy as to first party damages, are to read the exclusions. If not excluded then its covered.
Posted By: dave mosley

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/29/15 02:18 PM

2 experiences for me in large, large wind, one on a G-Cat 5.0 where a squall came through so fast there was no time to react. The boat turtled and I rode it out in between the hulls in hail, lightning, and 40+ winds. I would certainly do it again if needed and if the conditions(water depth) were agreeable. If it were too shallow then I would stay with boat and try to not get tangled up.
Second time was in an evening race on a C&C 24 with 3 catsailors and 2 small children. A large cloud that had loomed and grew all day truly fell from the sky in a matter of seconds. it grew so large and so high it collapsed sending a doughnut shaped cloud towards the race course. We saw it happen dropped sails hit the motor and were almost back to the club when it hit. bare poles still caused the boat to heel so far we couldn't keep the kicker in the water. All 3 of us got on the back of the boat and were close to shore when we passed another competitor on a 21 ft boat who were screaming at us to help them. We debated for a few seconds and decided we needed to turn around and help them. Bad idea, good thought, but bad idea. We were left going in the wrong direction(back into the storm), we couldn't get to them, and we now were in so much wind we couldn't keep the kicker or the rudder in the water so we couldn't steer down or up and were now headed for the rocks at the dam. At some point we got just enough steerage to point into the wind but with motor at full throttle we were still backing up towards the rocks.
we threw out a large Danforth and watched it skip across the water as were going so fast in reverse, but it finally dove down. We dragged it about 100 ft until it caught approx. 15-20 from the rocks. we then rode out the storm with motor WOFT and the Danforth in place facing the wind.

Bottom line I felt safer on my turtled cat than on that 24 ft monoslug.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/29/15 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


I'm not angry in the least just tired of the BS that passes for knowledge.


What!? Todd saying you're not angry is like Karl saying he doesn't have dark sense of humor. And yes I know, it does take one to know one. You're an a$$hole and from one a$$hole to another accept and embrase it it's wonderfully liberating. Just keep in mind with freedom there is a cost you will take a lot boots to the nuts and everyone of them will be earned.

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Mobile bay regatta - 04/29/15 05:16 PM

My only thought viewing that video was if I were that boat and I saw the boats closer to the storm getting wiped out, I think I would scuttle the race and drop sails to prepare for it.

Not sure if I'd continue downwind like they did or turn into/hove to with the motor on. Guess would depend on lee shore or other things like that.

The one video of the boat with the furled sails seemed reasonable, but not having PFDs on when the stuff hit the fan seemed a little silly.

I do enjoy these post-incident discussions, and even a little armchair skippering in some cases. It might trigger something in my head at some point in the future if I'm unlucky enough to get into a situation like that.

Personally, if I were in that mess with my three-legger, I'd hope to have the ability to furl the sails and possibly toss the anchor (you said it was about 10' depth there? I have about 80' of anchor rode but it would probably drag) in the hopes of riding it out facing the blow rather than run downwind in the white-out conditions.
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