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A Cat Championship in Panama City

Posted By: David Ingram

A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/20/15 07:29 PM

The coverage is pretty good:

http://www.acatnorthamericans.com/
Posted By: Jake

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/20/15 09:23 PM

Wow...I think this is the only time I've seen slow motion cinematography of sailing that I actually liked.

https://vimeo.com/128256124
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/21/15 01:27 PM

much nicer than bouncy boat-cams...
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/21/15 05:46 PM

And this is how you properly feature a sponsor in sailing video.

https://vimeo.com/128454320
Posted By: Jake

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/21/15 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
And this is how you properly feature a sponsor in sailing video.

https://vimeo.com/128454320


It doesn't hurt that he crushes that pin end start..wow.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/21/15 11:32 PM

Nice to hear some 'Stralian music on a US video
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/22/15 04:43 AM

Foilers are kicking butt
7 out of the top 10
And 10 out of the top 20...
Us low riders are still hanging in there
Posted By: dave mosley

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/22/15 01:11 PM

Mike you looked like you were foiling on that start! Your own personal puff? Love those, I seldon get em, but love em
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/23/15 04:40 AM

not foiling, just power reaching down to the pin.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/23/15 12:51 PM

So Mike, has there been any talk inside the class, of perhaps splitting the fleet into foiling and non-foiling fleets? Or perhaps a separate trophy for each?

I was just about to sell my Blade and get an A cat last year when this foiling thing came along and put the 'state of the art' wayyy outside my reach, money wise!

$30K for a foiler?? Ouch!

All those non foiling A cats need to go somewhere, maybe if the class splits up, I can afford a used non-foiler and have someone to race against.

If I want to go flying, for $30K I can get an airplane and not have to worry about if there's wind, or clean weeds on my blades.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/24/15 12:00 PM

We addressed it this week at the annual meeting. For full details, check out the sh*tstorm we have started over on the SA Multihull forum under the A-Class NA coverage.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/26/15 06:25 PM

Highlight video of the week - https://vimeo.com/128902743
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/26/15 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
Highlight video of the week - https://vimeo.com/128902743


I filled me shorts...

I need to get an A-Cat. It's amazing what a leap there is in flight compared to the footage from Tankapanakunablahblah... <---Can the locals even spell the name of their city?!
Posted By: Jake

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/27/15 12:50 AM

I could watch that all...day...long.
Posted By: Jake

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/27/15 07:15 PM

man, just spent some time in that thread on Sailing Anarchy...you guys did start quite a storm. It's all in the wording. Nice that it appears to be resolved and I think you guys are headed down a good path. Contrary to some of the talk, it would be much more affordable to retrofit a standard "ocean hugging" boat with bottom-up installed foils to get it airborne than to go through the contortions of modifying the hull to accept some really oddly shaped daggerboard only to find out another oddly shaped daggerboard works better (and now it won't fit). A fore-aft top adjustment doesn't have to be buried in the trunk either and could just be bolted to the top of the deck.

Personally, after seeing the result of the phantom in the surf during the Florida 300, I'm waiting for someone to build a hull where the dagger board trunk opens through the side of the hull so the foil can be fully raised and permit sliding onto the beach. There are a lot of considerations there but I'm sure it can be done....heck, build the structure on the side of the hull like an old-school leeboard and unpin the entire structure when approaching the beach.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/27/15 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Jake

Personally, after seeing the result of the phantom in the surf during the Florida 300, I'm waiting for someone to build a hull where the dagger board trunk opens through the side of the hull so the foil can be fully raised and permit sliding onto the beach. There are a lot of considerations there but I'm sure it can be done....heck, build the structure on the side of the hull like an old-school leeboard and unpin the entire structure when approaching the beach.


would a little cutout in the hull athwartship to fit the "T" part of the foil work to allow (when fully retracted) the foil to fit flush with the hull when you go skidding up the beach? Might be slow in non-foiling mode, however..
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/27/15 07:39 PM

or you could just buy a moth.
Posted By: Jake

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/27/15 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
or you could just buy a moth.


Ever sail a 49er/29er? You never realize how much time you spend with your catamaran idle, drinking some water or taking in a snack between races at a weekend regatta until your f'in boat won't stay upright unless it's moving all the time. I'm guessing the moth is similar.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/27/15 07:54 PM

I had a moth. Like Jake said, try drinking a beer or chilling out between races. I sold it, to get another A-cat...
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/27/15 08:45 PM

do any of you yoots with high-tech boats even drink while sailing anymore?

But yeah, the moth/29r/49r thing would really suck waiting between races... and using the head is practically out of the question I suspect.

I do enjoy loitering without having to worry the boat will flip.
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/28/15 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
man, just spent some time in that thread on Sailing Anarchy...you guys did start quite a storm. It's all in the wording. Nice that it appears to be resolved and I think you guys are headed down a good path. Contrary to some of the talk, it would be much more affordable to retrofit a standard "ocean hugging" boat with bottom-up installed foils to get it airborne than to go through the contortions of modifying the hull to accept some really oddly shaped daggerboard only to find out another oddly shaped daggerboard works better (and now it won't fit). A fore-aft top adjustment doesn't have to be buried in the trunk either and could just be bolted to the top of the deck.

Personally, after seeing the result of the phantom in the surf during the Florida 300, I'm waiting for someone to build a hull where the dagger board trunk opens through the side of the hull so the foil can be fully raised and permit sliding onto the beach. There are a lot of considerations there but I'm sure it can be done....heck, build the structure on the side of the hull like an old-school leeboard and unpin the entire structure when approaching the beach.


You still can't go beyond max beam, and if you put the box on the inside you would lose a large amount of righting moment. This move has opened things up for innovation ,but it definitely doesn't mean it will be easier or even better, but the opportunity is there. It will be interesting to see the journey.
Posted By: Jake

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/28/15 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
man, just spent some time in that thread on Sailing Anarchy...you guys did start quite a storm. It's all in the wording. Nice that it appears to be resolved and I think you guys are headed down a good path. Contrary to some of the talk, it would be much more affordable to retrofit a standard "ocean hugging" boat with bottom-up installed foils to get it airborne than to go through the contortions of modifying the hull to accept some really oddly shaped daggerboard only to find out another oddly shaped daggerboard works better (and now it won't fit). A fore-aft top adjustment doesn't have to be buried in the trunk either and could just be bolted to the top of the deck.

Personally, after seeing the result of the phantom in the surf during the Florida 300, I'm waiting for someone to build a hull where the dagger board trunk opens through the side of the hull so the foil can be fully raised and permit sliding onto the beach. There are a lot of considerations there but I'm sure it can be done....heck, build the structure on the side of the hull like an old-school leeboard and unpin the entire structure when approaching the beach.


You still can't go beyond max beam, and if you put the box on the inside you would lose a large amount of righting moment. This move has opened things up for innovation ,but it definitely doesn't mean it will be easier or even better, but the opportunity is there. It will be interesting to see the journey.


How much does righting moment matter? (I really don't know)...the Moths seem to get along ok with very little of it. Talking with JC about the CF20 Foiler, once they get up to speed with it and start dealing with really high apparent wind angles, they lose so much of the typical side force on the sail plan that they struggle to keep the windward hull flying. It often results in the windward hull dropping down to the water. That action can result in a wave hitting the people on the trapeze which is, reportedly, pretty darn dramatic at 30 knots!
Posted By: Redtwin

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/28/15 12:11 PM

I know it is forbidden in the AC, but could you just keep both boards down the whole time to minimize the "tea bagging"? Too much drag???
Posted By: bacho

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/28/15 12:59 PM

Not that I am against the idea, but I would like to see some builds or proposals on how it will be any cheaper to use foils inserted from the bottom.

I saw a price on the exploder "kit" for foils. Seems like it was about $3k.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/28/15 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
Not that I am against the idea, but I would like to see some builds or proposals on how it will be any cheaper to use foils inserted from the bottom.

I saw a price on the exploder "kit" for foils. Seems like it was about $3k.


Which is funny how cheap we are, yet we demand the latest gizmos.

$3k is close to the entry fee for some leaner regattas...
Posted By: Jake

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/28/15 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
Not that I am against the idea, but I would like to see some builds or proposals on how it will be any cheaper to use foils inserted from the bottom.

I saw a price on the exploder "kit" for foils. Seems like it was about $3k.


A lot of guys have sawed out their daggerboard trunks to replace them with curved, or wide open, trunks or even moved the location of the trunks for different types of boards. We had a few guys here do that to get to C-boards but their modifications would have to be re-done to get to any revision of the current foiling boards. When a new board style is developed, it may require a completely different trunk configuration to accommodate the rule that required that the board be inserted from the top.

With an option to insert the board from the bottom of the boat, it means you could conceptually take even a boyer MKIII and configure it with a foiling board without cutting the hull. Any fore-aft adjustment needed for the foil could be done with a mechanism that was bolted/laminated to the top of the existing deck and inserts inside the existing trunks could allow proper operation (although one might argue the value of investing that much into an older A-cat). You could also wildly change board styles without having to go in and modify the hull.

What we're probably going to see early on is the V-style boards like used in the America's Cup...and those really don't have any way to go in from the top into a typical trunk configuration.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/28/15 02:41 PM

I made a set of sliders for my C-boards and glued them to the top of the trunks. It allows me to go from neutral to +5 degrees of cant. One line pulls them both back at the same time and the bungee pulls them forward when I release the cleat.

Works really well running downwind to keep the bows up, and neutral cant upwind reduces the drag.

My next step is to build longer C-boards, and increase the size of the rudder winglets to stabilize the increased lift generated by the C-boards.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/28/15 02:46 PM

Here's a link to a video showing how stable my boat is with the boards set at maximum cant.

https://www.facebook.com/chuck.allen.562/videos/10205915743912691/
Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/28/15 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
man, just spent some time in that thread on Sailing Anarchy...you guys did start quite a storm. It's all in the wording. Nice that it appears to be resolved and I think you guys are headed down a good path. Contrary to some of the talk, it would be much more affordable to retrofit a standard "ocean hugging" boat with bottom-up installed foils to get it airborne than to go through the contortions of modifying the hull to accept some really oddly shaped daggerboard only to find out another oddly shaped daggerboard works better (and now it won't fit). A fore-aft top adjustment doesn't have to be buried in the trunk either and could just be bolted to the top of the deck.

Personally, after seeing the result of the phantom in the surf during the Florida 300, I'm waiting for someone to build a hull where the dagger board trunk opens through the side of the hull so the foil can be fully raised and permit sliding onto the beach. There are a lot of considerations there but I'm sure it can be done....heck, build the structure on the side of the hull like an old-school leeboard and unpin the entire structure when approaching the beach.


You still can't go beyond max beam, and if you put the box on the inside you would lose a large amount of righting moment. This move has opened things up for innovation ,but it definitely doesn't mean it will be easier or even better, but the opportunity is there. It will be interesting to see the journey.


How much does righting moment matter? (I really don't know)...the Moths seem to get along ok with very little of it. Talking with JC about the CF20 Foiler, once they get up to speed with it and start dealing with really high apparent wind angles, they lose so much of the typical side force on the sail plan that they struggle to keep the windward hull flying. It often results in the windward hull dropping down to the water. That action can result in a wave hitting the people on the trapeze which is, reportedly, pretty darn dramatic at 30 knots!


Righting moment is what gets you foiling in the first place(pops you up). The end game is foiling at minimum class limits, so yeah it's important at least in the direction I've been studying.Not to say some other innovation won't negate that altogether, like a center Moth foil, but active controls are still illegal.
Posted By: Jake

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/28/15 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


Righting moment is what gets you foiling in the first place(pops you up). The end game is foiling at minimum class limits, so yeah it's important at least in the direction I've been studying.Not to say some other innovation won't negate that altogether, like a center Moth foil, but active controls are still illegal.


You would still have the same righting moment in sea-hugger / displacement mode to initially get up to speed and would have the righting moment reduce as the boat comes up on foils if the foils were inset. Heck, it might be an advantage in some situations. It does seem, however, that the current method of foiling on the a-cats requires the trapeze action downwind...but that need might change as the speeds and apparent wind increase as the foils get better. I'm just tossing out ideas. Regardless, it will be interesting to watch how it develops.

Posted By: Team_Cat_Fever

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/28/15 08:58 PM

No you wouldn't have the same in floater mode, the foils would be inboard(can't go outboard because of max beam rule) of your hulls, instead of through them, unless I'm misunderstanding your concept.This puts them 8-10" inboard (each hull)of where they generally are now, making a decrease of 16-20" of righting moment.
Posted By: Jake

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/28/15 09:25 PM

I'm looking at the righting moment based on where the platform rotates as it starts to heal. While the hulls are in the water, that rotation would mostly take place at the leeward hull where it contacts the water. The board (depth) at that point has an affect on how easily the boat rotates related to leeway/traction in the water. Most of that righting moment in a floating mode would be calculated at where the hull contacts the water and not the board...BUT, I'm sure there are some other complex dynamics related to heal that that an inward board placement would negatively affect. For instance, you would lose board depth in the water as the boat heals if it were placed inboard from the hull.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/28/15 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
No you wouldn't have the same in floater mode, the foils would be inboard(can't go outboard because of max beam rule) of your hulls, instead of through them, unless I'm misunderstanding your concept.This puts them 8-10" inboard (each hull)of where they generally are now, making a decrease of 16-20" of righting moment.


Perhaps the A cat Foiling Rules need to change too. Make it easier to control, via the wand system, make the foils easier/cheaper to build and install, and they will get more boats foiling, faster, safer, cheaper. What's not to like? I mean, if you are going to toss the non-foiling rules, and go with foiling, why not do it right? The Moth guys figured it out a long time ago with the wand system.

Go look at that S9 video Mike posted in the other thread. Do that with the A cats and presto, full foiling class that could also be converted to non-foiling, or allow all the (old, obsolete) A cats to install that type of foil system and be competitive again.
Posted By: Abraham

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/29/15 06:14 AM

I'm looking at the righting moment based on where the platform rotates as it starts to heal.
Posted By: Jake

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/29/15 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
No you wouldn't have the same in floater mode, the foils would be inboard(can't go outboard because of max beam rule) of your hulls, instead of through them, unless I'm misunderstanding your concept.This puts them 8-10" inboard (each hull)of where they generally are now, making a decrease of 16-20" of righting moment.


Perhaps the A cat Foiling Rules need to change too. Make it easier to control, via the wand system, make the foils easier/cheaper to build and install, and they will get more boats foiling, faster, safer, cheaper. What's not to like? I mean, if you are going to toss the non-foiling rules, and go with foiling, why not do it right? The Moth guys figured it out a long time ago with the wand system.

Go look at that S9 video Mike posted in the other thread. Do that with the A cats and presto, full foiling class that could also be converted to non-foiling, or allow all the (old, obsolete) A cats to install that type of foil system and be competitive again.


I get the feeling that wands are getting to be a little old-school. There is a lot of complication with the linkage mechanisms and getting the action right takes some effort (unless someone has worked all that out for you ahead of time). I'm guessing the self regulating foils are going to be the future. Back when foiling first started on power boats the foils were self regulating and we've seen that theme through everything from Hydroptere, the recent America's Cup, and even Dave Carlson's creative beach cat adaptations in the 80's. Here's a picture of Alexander Graham Bell's record setting hydro foiler built in 1919. It held the foiler speed record at 60 knots until the 1960s. Even it has a foil system that reduces the amount of foil and the resulting lift as it gets faster and higher out of the water.

[Linked Image]

The trick with a self regulating foil is to do it efficiently. Looking at that picture, you could understand how draggy all of those ladder foils can be. Hydroptere improved on the theme with a single tapered, inward canted, foil. As the boat lifts higher out of the water, it has less foil in the water and that water born foil has a shorter chord for less wetted surface area. The America's Cup testing determined that the V-shaped foil offered a stability advantage with the two somewhat opposed lifting surfaces in the "V" working against each other. That V foil is also self regulating and starts reducing lift gradually as that V pierces the surface.
Posted By: mikekrantz

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/29/15 01:07 PM

Here is how stable foiling can be. This is Bruce Mahoney on his DNA foiling between races at the NA's last week.

https://youtu.be/m9Jhjr1cl98

Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/29/15 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Abraham
I'm looking at the righting moment based on where the platform rotates as it starts to heal.


I'd bet you are, spammer.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/29/15 02:22 PM

I think I like the max beam rule, since a crowded start line with everyone's T-foils underwater might make for additional damage when they all get tangled up...

The moth foils don't extend beyond the beam of the hull, do they? I'd suspect they certainly don't extend beyond the racks...?
Posted By: Jeff.Dusek

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/29/15 03:51 PM

They extend well beyond the beam of the hull, but not the racks.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/29/15 04:24 PM

so there isn't often foil-tangling going on at busy starts, since the racks would probably collide first?

Not that collisions should be a regular event, but I've got some scratches down the sides of my hulls. I call them "starting badges of courage"

edit: If I get enough of those "badges", I figure I will be the "Keep away from that F'n guy" boat smile
Posted By: Jake

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/29/15 05:45 PM

try starting a race with a windrider rave. You hear a bang but there's still a foot between you...that will make you scratch your head.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 05/30/15 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by mikekrantz
Here is how stable foiling can be. This is Bruce Mahoney on his DNA foiling between races at the NA's last week.

https://youtu.be/m9Jhjr1cl98



Looks like he was really fighting it there. Too bad it's a fad. grin
Posted By: dacarls

Re: A Cat Championship in Panama City - 06/06/15 01:43 PM

I am the proud and unwilling owner of 5 A-cats in Gainesville.
2 were damaged by one magnolia tree plus both masts, now repaired, and now want new homes. CAll me 352-3321049. I am leaving for the summer on Tuesday AM dawn:30. ANd leaving the boats here.
I started to check this old website to see if Rick W. was still sort of breathing. (Yes but iffy).
Bim 2000 asking $3500K beahc wheels/no trailer and Bim Javelin 2002 asking $4500K/ beach wheels, no trailer. Great starter boats have sails, need nothing. I have borrowable steel trailers and really need a TRAilex. Boats don't leak.
BOATS WEIGH 175 POUNDS which is why these were kept here. but owners got damaged by age and food after 15 years. Also they didn't know how to fix them. Note at A-cat N. Americans half the fleet of 42 was age 60 plus. OK all U old guys whose arms and legs still work--- call me now. Dave Carlson (trying to figure out how to get an ad here on CS).
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