Thoughts on foiling...

After reading some of the Sailing Anarchy A Cat Nationals foiling thread, it occurred to me that if we (we as in, future catamaran development) are going to go down the road to foiling, how should the classes be divided up?

I mean, we have always divided the classes up by their designs, One Design is just that, but for the box rule classes, or the Development classes, if you are going to allow foiling and then design a straight up foiling boat, does hull length matter once you get up on the foils? Is a foiling 16 footer just as fast a foiling 20?

I would think the only thing you would want to 'design' is the lightest platform capable of holding the foils and the mast upright.

I guess each box rule class could keep the same limits on sail area, minimum weight, etc, but it could go a new direction in hull design.

So will future 'catamaran' designs go in that direction, once the class rules are modified to allow full on foiling?

Would/should there also be measurement limits on the foils themselves, such as foil type, size, placement, actuators, that type of thing?

The moth class is a great example of this transition already taking place in an established displacement class. However, I don't think the moth class was that large prior to the introduction of foiling but there are distinct parallels with the statements and positions of the current a-class sailors "foilers have their conditions", "they won't always be an advantage", etc. etc.

I think we all want to go faster, that's why we (most of us) left monohulls for cats in the first place. I'd love to 'foil', even race a foiler, once it all gets sorted out.

I'm just trying to look ahead to see if there might be some unintended consequences coming in the way of designs, if full on foiling is approved.

I guess we can sit back and watch what happens in the US A Cat class in the next two years, since they basically said that's what they are going to do. Is there a better hull shape to hold the foils? I was thinking they might want to move the foil boxes further forward, perhaps in front of the main beam, to prevent the hobby horse effects we see today.

Seems to me that putting the major lifting foils further up front would prevent a lot of the nose dives. If you move them forward, you could share the load with the rudder foils too.

Of course you'd then have to engineer a way to lift them up, unless you just leave them down and park in deeper water, like the Moth guys do.

Ahhh, Bill Roberts "Shared Lift" concept he used for the ARC 21. A bitch to tack though. It is harder to tack the 8.5' boat with shared lift than the 12.5' boat without.

But at the end of the day the floaters are a knife at a gun fight. To entertain the idea of running foilers and floaters together is at the very least is misguided. I think the disruption caused by this injection of technology will take a toll short term and the arms race will keep a significant number of us on the sidelines until the dust settles, if it ever settles.

As a potential downside, crashing a full foiling A-cat at 22+ knots is going to leave a mark on both the boat and driver and let's be honest there aren't a lot of kids sailing A cats.

Timbo,

The problem with that is that in order to have stability and control as you transition through lifted flight and non-lifted motion, the main lifting elements need to carry a large majority of the load...just like an airplane. If the foils are moved further toward the ends of the craft (sharing more lift between the boards and the rudders or the wing and the elevators), the dynamic changes in lift as it transitions states is wild and difficult to control. This was one of the (re)discoveries that the America's cup campaigns discovered...they had to put the boards near the CG of the boat - otherwise it would porpoise wildly when it tried to get into the air and was unstable while transitioning. It is the same reason that the main wing element on most aircraft carries almost all of the weight of the plane.

Thanks Jake, btw, have you seen some of the Burt Rutan designs, with a lifting canard up front and the main wing aft? He originally designed it that way to 'share' the lift, and to make it stall proof, because the canard will stall before the main wing, which then lowers the nose/angle of attack.

Check this one out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT8qKXPJKdw

And here's a smaller one for a homebuilder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcrF4nYhxvM

Here's a look at "The Whisper" a two up foiling cat, looks like it's using those Moth type rods to adjust ride height, and this was filmed on very, very flat water. I wonder how it goes in waves and chop?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AwfruS9aAo

How about a foiling bicycle?

I think I'll take a ride around the lake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLboyOqi6R8

Here's a slightly different take on pedal powered foiling, looks interesting...in flat water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvlS-4t54cc

Like to see that in amphibian mode....

Oh, have I? ;-) I've been a fan of the LongEZ and VariEZ since I was 16. I have a rough RC model that I bought at an auction a long time ago but never put together. Having later put myself through college rebuilding mazda rotary engines, the thought of building my own LongEZ with a rotary engine was quite a dream for a long time.

I remember seeing a monohull racing boat, about 40'(?), that put the rudder in the front to share the lift, but it was supposedly a b!tch to drive straight. I think it did OK in a couple races but the idea obviously didn't catch on.

Anyone remember the specifics on that boat? I saw some pictures in magazines at the time, but it was about 20 (or more) years ago so I've long since forgotten most of the details.

"What If" someone put the 'rudder' foils in front on a cat, and put the larger, J type foils a little further aft, I wonder if that would limit the hobby horsing? Of course the steering linkage might be tough to work out!

Eagle 20 36.8knts

Speaking of Whisper.

Another T foil set up. Seems to me with this design a small recess in the hull could be done so the board could be pulled up flush with the bottom of the boat enabling the boat to hit the beach without damaging the foil. I know the rudders are still an issue but one miracle at a time.

It turned into a patent nightmare. If I remember correctly, they had a trimable trailing flap on the keel fin too and some sort of arrangement with both a fore and aft rudder. I know there were lawsuit threats but I don't know if it ever went to court.

Schock 40. I sailed on one. Also had a canting keel. Wicked fast on a reach, and very hard to steer. Several had the keels fall off and it sort of killed the class.

Are uou talking about the schock 40?

Edit, too slow

+1 on going faster, but only to the extent that sailing still remains relatively easy. If it's going to be like racing a unicycle down an ice luge track, no thanks.

And that is the rub. Sailing is a giant pain in the a$$ and every time it's made more difficult to go a little faster we lose members from the water. This impact is always lost in the noise created by the hype of "new tech". Then we always ask ourselves what is happening to our numbers like there is some invisible force keeping people away from sailing.

You can look down your nose and the monohull classes but they are still getting some very respectable numbers on some serious relics and appear to be having a great time.

Keep raising he skill level required and increasing the price of admission and our pool will continue to get smaller and smaller.

You're starting to sound exactly like Mark Schneider. Congratulations. No one has to get a foiler, so there's no need for anyone to quit. By your logic ,we should all be on Hobie 14s or Aqua cats. You'll start digging it in 10 years (if you make it that long), it took you that long to get into real distance racing.

Todd

Hobie 14
Hobie Wave
Hobie 17
Isotope
F16 Single hander
A class floater
A Class ISAF Flyer
A Class USA Franken Flyer

Plenty of cat sailors racing all of these boats. They all still have NA's. Dave's point that constant change is not good for participation is supported by the fact that these old classes are still going well.... and for cheap!

However,... you don't see any Catnips, Woodies, Boyer 4s in the floater class.... Why? the other old boats are still racing?
Dave nails it...Set aside sails.... if every year... you need to inject 4K in equipment upgrades to stay with pack.. The flush rate will be high...

Only the A class has seen value in splitting into three classes. Why?

If I was unable to accept change, I would sail an Optimist.

There's a pun in there somewhere.

I once considered designing an adult-size sailing pram with comp-tip, hobie-bob, padded rails, flotation bags, self-bailers, and kick up centerboard and rudder. I was going to call it the "Pessimist".

wait... I thought you were describing the Wave. Which has a huge following ... just sayin'

now THAT's a pun.

What's the latest from the F18 camp on foiling?

There is no camp for that in F18 land. The rules dictate straight boards with boards operating linearly in the vertical plane of the hull profile. Even the inward angled boards were squished several years ago. The boat is also pretty heavy to invest in foiling.

However, the Phantom was an F18 based design that was redesigned for foiling with a wider beam and lighter construction (about 280 to 300lbs).

I don't want an F18 to foil, just wanted to make sure when I get another one that the rules don't change and leave me behind!

Classes come and classes go.

The F18 class is so restricted, by intention, that any investment is as safe as an investment in a boat can be.



I would love to sail on foils. Even if I had to work hard on my own skills to make it foil. That is what sailing is about for me. Working on my skills (and that is fun!)


I dont know about puns there Jake. But I am sure there are plenty of huns making a mess of it

So what you're saying is I should sail what YOU think is good for sailing and not what I want.Sail what you want antiquated or cutting edge, but quit being a socialist/hater about what other people want to do. I guarantee you I have less money than 95% of the folks on here and I have managed to be involved with ANY class I wanted to, from 4 Worrell 1000s and all the spinnaker mods before they were stock to A cats with their evolution.And if I recall you were the douche' who wanted to penalize me with a stiffer portsmouth handicap for having sponsor stickers on my sail, while my true sponsor was my credit card. I don't have the time or effort for y'all's whining. Don't like it, don't sail it, that's why I sold my F-18 and Mystere 4.3.

Probably, but Timbo's pretty close... Maybe more money, but more sucking noise out of his pocket (4 kids, wifey and a frikkin' herd of expensive horses). Maybe Karl the second with his cabinet-shop-mahal.

But certainly you've "showed up" much more than they...


Sail what you want, but don't complain when fleet sizes are small. You want big fleet sailing? Join a big fleet....

Perhaps consider Big Fleet, Fast, Cheap... Pick any two.

Todd

YOU can own and SAIL any damn thing you want to.. However, Sailboat RACING is pretty socialist... If you don't agree with 10 others on a set of rules.... you don't have a class.. Its a SOCIAL CONTRACT...

That is the value of buying into a class.... you agree to the contract of class rules.... It protects your investment AND sets your expectations when you go out racing... Most of those old single handed cats survive as race boats BECAUSE they Honor and respect their class rules.... Sailors buy in. You get good turnouts.

Each turn of the development cycle flushes some racers... not a problem when you are growing. So, How fast can you cycle and not flush racers in 2015?

In the two man boats... the N17 doesn't fly. THe Flying Tiger and the N20c do and are available. I bet that there are only 5 of these in North America and the impact on the F18 fleet is invisible. Not much of a problem.

And then The US A Class decided that International class rules did not work for them and made their own new class last week...
(Lets cycle FASTER....)
(THAT Sucks if you just dropped 25K on the latest ISAF legal DNA flying A class 6 weeks ago.)

So... you now have
ISAF A CLASS Floater ... which HONORS rule 8....No flying boats.
ISAF A class Flyer .... which uses the loopholes in rule 8.... Flying boats.
USA A Class Flyer ... which allows any thing by dumping rule 8 altogether. ... one of a kind flying regattas.

So ... Sail what you want... The A class is cycling like a spinning top...

Time will tell.

Well..ok, but that whole A-cat rule thing was a case study in poor initial presentation. After consideration of the thoughtful and polite feedback they initially received (/sarcasm), Bailey further clarified the NA position as one where they aren't striking parts of the A-class rules for North America but are allowing boats to race on the course with a-cats at non-internationally sanctioned events that fit the a-class rule with the exception of rule 8.

The actual difference of these positions on reality is very slight while the political implications are drastically different. An a-class is still an a-class. An a-class that ignores the recent rule 8 modifications is technically no longer an a-cat but is allowed to race with the a-cats at most of the north american events.

Nicely framed Jake.

Here is the money question.... Do you think the A class will be changing their rules in the future?.... and are you willing to buy a current design based on your tea leave reading?

I might add. Mischa Hermschck is on the record as stating the rules will have to change in a year or so...

The facts are that floaters are not racing flyers... except on the paper score sheet.

Personally, I think there is no turning back and the a-cat will be a genuine foiling class in the very near future. The foiling restrictions in rule 8 go away and the sea-huggers will go the way of the woodie a-cats. They'll hang around for a while, people that enjoy sailing them will continue to do so for a while until the lack of critical mass is quickly reduced to the point that there are just a handful of folks hanging in there old-school (2-3 years). Other folks will start hacking at their current a-cats as their budgets allow and we get a third crappy portsmouth rating for another type of a cat. The sailors have really already voted with the votes that really count...just look at how many new foilers are out there already that work within all the complications that is rule 8.

Whether or not class numbers go up or down is anybodies guess - but I would wager that after an initial period of decline that the class numbers will grow until they realign with the overall attendance trend of the sailing sport whatever that might be at the time.

As far as my own boat preference, I really enjoyed sailing an a-cat when I did but I'm not in the market for another single hander. If I was, I would need to probably find a way to fund $15,000 to $25,000 to restart life as a foiling a-cater and that would probably only get me something that I would need to start cutting on. I could do it, but I'm not sure it's worth that much to me when I find nearly as much enjoyment club racing my 1983 J22...but that's just me influenced by having the pleasure of sailing with some really great people as crew.

Jake, your last statement("An a-class that ignores the recent rule 8 modifications is technically no longer an a-cat but is allowed to race with the a-cats at most of the north american events") sounds a lot like what Hobie did for years(allowing only Hobies to race in HCA races) until the numbers of one-off, PHRF ect outgrew the Hobie Class boats in some regions and change had to occur for regattas to sustain themselves.
Now, was the A Class fleet fading away and needed this boost of development? I would say no, but sailing changed around the class. When the AC started foiling, and GB, Phantom, and NACRA all started to fly, then the class who is known as the development class for cats and really much of sailing, well it had to change as well.
Does F18 or any other class have to change like that to sustain itself? No, the A cat is a different animal, almost apples to oranges in many aspects.
Mark, I think the A class has to continually change its rules as a development class. they almost need a limited set of rules, and let the true developments start happening.
IMHO you either have the rules and live by them, or you open it up and learn what the future holds

I would compare this more to the Moth class (that was initially a water-borne dingy class) than anything that's happened in the past with the HCA. It's about a bunch of guys that want to experiment and push the limits vs. the folks who are concerned about how such a fast paced change would impact the current class vs. the folks that are very change-resistant.

(hmmm...maybe you could relate that to the HCA - but I still stand by my initial statement...the driving forces/motivations were very different).

what I meant was the change is inevitable, the holder-on'ers will eventually lose out to the development.
What will be interesting is when the next technological advancement happens that renders foiling obsolete and slow, then what?
too rich for my pockets

Dave you wrote


So rule 8 was... NO FLYING BOATS.... I bought a boat..
just after I got a boat...they decided to change to the current rule 8... same idea... no flying boats... and make the rule technical. I voted against that change because I foresaw the current situation.

So, rather then honor the rule... half the class exploited the rule and boats now fly.

Last week... the US class forshadowed the push to change the rules again... to open them up.

Umm... what rules would you count on???

The proper thing to have done was to split the class into divisions... floaters and flyers and allow the floaters to honor rule 8.... No flying... and the flyers to dump rule 8 as the US now wants to do.... Had this happened at the last worlds.. everyone would be happy.

AS i noted... the Hobie 14 still has a North Americans and remains an ISAF class...

When the A-class weight changed from 200lbs to 165 lbs - that was going to be the end of the A-Class
When the "Bendy" mast came out - that was going to be the end of the A-Class
When the "C" foils came out - that was going to be the end of the A-Class
When the new foilers arrived - that was going to be the end of the A-Class
When Rule 8 is dropped - that was going to be then of the A-Class

The last two NA's have been the largest ever, and the worlds are consistently drawing over 100 boats.

The sky is falling....

I would love to see foiling get developed, if only to find out what type of foils/installations would be both faster and cheaper, then maybe that technology could migrate to a few other classes, sort of how the spinnaker/snuff setup did and the square tops sails and wing shaped masts. It won't happen over night but it's got to start somewhere.

If I were King, I would have the A class split into two fleets, all out, anything goes type foils to encourage developing the 'best' way to do it, and no flying at all for the guys who don't want to fly. I think the Moth class did that for awhile too, when they started foiling didn't they?

Eventually, I would expect a better/cheaper/easier/more stable foiling setup would evolve and once it did, more guys from the non-foiling A's would make the transition to foiling.

If an installation is developed that could easily modify a floater into a flyer, (by simply replacing the dagger trunk) that would help make the transition faster and more affordable allowing more of us poor people into the flying class.

Back to a design type question that got me thinking when I started this thread, once you get a boat up onto foils, does hull shape or water line length matter anymore? What would a new, fully foiling A cat look like? I would think the designers would try to come up with something that would get the hulls up out of the water asap, so the real design work would be in the foil itself, and controlling it easily and consistently, to stay up on the foils the entire race, like the (fast) Moth guys do.

As far as which class rules need to remain, vs. be changed, I guess the two most important factors would be sail area and minimum weight, I don't' know that beam and/or hull length will matter as much once you develop foils that will keep the boat out of the water most of the race. What if there was just one class called, "Foiling Cat" class, where a foiling A would race straight up against a Phantom and a foiling N20. We would quickly see what's faster. Hey wait, what about a foiling Optimist?! Then you could have two classes, the Optimist and the Pessimist!

Ever since I saw the first flying Moth, I've been saying all we need to do is connect two of them side by side and put a mast in the middle, presto, flying cat! Will a full foiling A cat eventually look something like that?

Closest thing to it is the Stunt 9 - http://www.s9team.it/home.html

I was at the meeting, so have a pretty good grasp of what was said and although what was leaked to FB and then put on SA might not be what Bailey is saying now, what was said at the meeting is EXACTLY what Bailey is saying now. I'm assuming SA is where many got their info and it's not accurate(big surprise).Mark you're wrong in your interpretation, again big surprise, and if you want to have input that counts, you have to pay your class dues and VOTE, otherwise you're just blowing smoke and it's really getting old.
Big +1 to Mike Krantz's above post. If you want to come play, come play, we'd love to have you.

Thanks Mike! That is exactly what I had in mind, I can't believe we haven't seen this here in the USA yet. I crunched some numbers from the website, it's only 13.5 feet long, weighs about 170lbs. Costs about $17,000. US Dollars (15,500 Euros).

In their description they talk about the wand system of foil adjustment so the skipper can concentrate on sailing vs. moving the foil around.

And they say they have straight boards for kids and a shorter mast for high winds. Is there a class of these racing in Europe yet?

For about the price of a Wetta, you could be flying one of these instead. Can I race it in the full foiling A cat class? It would measure in, right? It's shorter and weighs more, so it wouldn't be 'outside' the A class rules, would it? If it doesn't exceed any A Cat box rules it should be (foiling) class legal... right? For less than the price of a floating A, you could be foiling!

ISAF rules prohibit the use of wands/active controls. The Moths get around this by specifically overruling ISAF in their class rules. So until ISAF changes their rule, it is not legal under any other class and the Stunt 9 can only race one-design in their own class.

Thanks again, are there many of these Stunt 9's out there yet? I wonder why it hasn't caught on over here yet? I was thinking about a Moth until you talked me out of it, but this boat seems to solve the 'sink or swim' issue the Moth suffers from, and it costs about the same as a Moth!

One 'negative' thing I read on the S.9 site, it says it needs 6 knots of wind to foil, and 8 knots to foil upwind. Which has me wondering just how well it points. I remember a few years ago when the C Class was experimenting with foiling, they said they couldn't point as well once they got up on the foils.

Have they found a solution to that? And if not, how about simply changing the race course to a more foil friendly course, like a trapezoid or such? Start on a broad reach, go like hell, make a left around a mark, go downwind, gibe, go like hell again, make another left, then one short upwind leg back to the start line, do it again.

buy 2, i'll drive down all the time to race ya

Talking about how well a boat points is really pretty useless in my opinion. Yes, when foiling the angle relative to the true wind will very likely be greater than when not foiling. This is because the apparent wind nearly doubles and the angle changes significantly. What you really need to think about is VMG.

I've sailed a moth several times, and trust me, it goes upwind just fine!

Actually Todd, I read Bill Howards post on face book thanking the class for just flushing his 28K investment down the tubes.

Had nothing to do with the Sailing Anarchy reaction..

A very interesting thought, Mark. Which might help explain why handicap systems suck.. Consider this hypothesis:

Sailors who didn't originally "buy in" to the concept (and purchased yachts outside of a particular class) who now want the "social contract" advantages (class racing) and want the "socialists" (those adhering to said social contract) to bend for their whim(s).

These socialists, in the spirit of cooperation, attempt to incorporate these outliers while balancing a semblance of fairness (through the handicap rating).

Further, some outliers may seek to capitalize (herafter referred to as "capitalists") on this handicap system's inherent weakness (accurate data/ratings) to dominate the social contract they have been allowed access to.

Does this perpetuate socialism or capitalism? hmmmm.....

OH GEEZ.... Why do you bait me???

How can I resist a debate equivalent to the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin?

The premise of your argument is that the capitalists demand entry into the socialist game is not reality.

The analogies to our ugly history with the Hobie edict is not accurate.. The one off or dead boat society boats were NOT asking to start with the Hobie 20s in their socialist race... They were asking to increase the size of the pie by adding another start to the regatta. The capitalists were delighted to look down their nose at the backward socialists and play with their state of the art toys (spins and lifting foils) This worked well and then Hobie CA exercised their monopoly with control of the Organizing authorities aka the Yacht clubs and turned down your request for a handicap start. The socialist feared the allure of the capitalists sexy hot toys. The capitalists simply took their game to a competing socialist organization... the regions blue blazer Yacht clubs and their game continued.

Your argument that the capitalists are rent seeking by gaming the handicap table has merit. Capitalists always look for areas with asymmetry in information. A new design is a perfect example of how you can exploit this asymmetry and collect some pickle dishes. The only solution is a transparent measurement based handicap system that can adjust to new facts on the water with an adjustment to the formula on an annual basis.

In the real world... the socialist are forced to drop out of their failing social structure and join the capitalists in their handicap race, all be it with a very dated ride. I conclude that the eternal dialectic between socialist an capitalist will continue and the world is better off with this dyanmic in play. The socialists enjoy their fun factor until they can't... the capitalists accept the socialists joining them and giggle as they take advantage of the asymmetry in information and rack up some pickle dishes at the expense of the socialists.

To see this in real life... visit Key West and watch the J70 guys party with the PHRF national championship equivents on the PHRF circles.
Grin

Yes, it is a slow day here (on the forum and the office )...

But the socialist/capitalist was meant to draw out those folks on the drill/Muslim thread (which is pretty dumb thing to do, but ...)




Or give every participant a trophy. Seems to work for youth soccer (I think I threw up in my mouth...)

Lot's of fishing going on here. Sure you guys don't want to post on this forum instead: http://www.bassresource.com/bass-fishing-forums/

After years of urging I am finally writing another book. This time I have a ton of guest authors covering almost every nook and cranny of our sport.
And really excited about a pretty lengthy chapter on foiling.
Glad this thread popped up.
Rick

Hey Rick, I'm reading one of your books right now - the ASA 114 cruising multihull book.

When my course instructor ordered it and it arrived I opened it and was like "I know that guy!"

We sailed it at TFW at Lake Garda about a week and a half ago, it was a fun little boat. Will post more in a bit.

https://www.facebook.com/catamaran.stunt

Foiling is a fad.

I don't know about that Dave...looks like even the lead haulers are getting into it, check out this video of a 'foiling' ocean racing mono, at about 1:25 the whole boat comes out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3on5CYbZP4

Gotcha! Hey Bob, you're right it is fun.

That looks very cool... but is it any faster. I mean, they are still dragging around that anchor of a bulb.

That's hilarious. SOOOOOOOOOO much work to try and be a multihull without actually being a multihull.

Is the purpose of those foils on mono to raise the boat or to add to the righting moment?

I would guess the later.

There is a fair amount of lift angle when the boat heels enough to engage that foil fully. I would say that it is primarily to reduce wetted surface area of the hull by making it lighter through the water - but there is probably some additional righting force with it too.

We sailed it (S9) at TFW at Lake Garda about a week and a half ago, it was a fun little boat.
Will

Be informed that the S9 wiil sail (or better fly) in the waters of Texas before the end of 2015.
I was told that there is still room in the container.
The bill for the complete boat (beach dolley with big wheels included) delivered to Texas is 17.5K USD
(14.5k EUR is the price ex factory plus 0.8K EUR of shipping).
For more info search for Catamaran Stunt on Facebook

I think Jake is right. I wonder when will see enough lift off the boards that they need stabilizers on the rudders. Must happen eventually I imagine because foiling, even with partial lift, is just too fast to ignore. Amazing that a 12,000 lb or more keelboat is that lifted already.

Caftan, would be great to see the S9 develop as a junior boat if that makes sense. Small and perhaps more stable with wands on both sides.

For those who want to race foiling boats, you can alway get a foiling A-Class for about the same price as the S9 in the US (from $22K to $25K or so) and have a few hundred boats to race with.

Thats a sailboat in that video?

With the amount of spray coming over the "bow" I was certain that I was watching a video of the next generation of "green, wind powered" submarines that I'm sure we're paying for.

Another option on the market is the Reg White designed "Whisper" Jon at NorBanks Sailing just took delivery of a pair...

I just saw a Nacra 15 on a trailer with the foils... Looked like a nice junior boat (perhaps to ramp-up to the 17 - once they fix all those issues)...