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2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler?

Posted By: ThunderMuffin

2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/17/15 06:45 PM

Its being reported on other sailing forums that the new cat for 2020 will be a foiler - perhaps a N17 with a fully-foiling set of.. err.. foils.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/17/15 08:44 PM

ISAF report said they plan to let the N17 evolve into a full foiler.
Posted By: P.M.

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/18/15 01:58 PM

Nacra 17 configuration
Posted By: Timbo

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/19/15 01:40 AM

I wonder if they'll go with the J foils we see today on those Red Bull cats, and will they have the Wand as a ride height controller?
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/19/15 03:33 AM

Wands would be illegal under ISAF rules. iits not a sailor regulated control device. its automatic!
Posted By: Pressure Drop

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/19/15 04:15 AM

haha so if the current 17 can't handle the stresses imposed by sailing in displacement mode, what re-engineering will be required to account for the added stress of "foiling"?

17 campaigns sure seem to be getting expensive. What, with some teams onto their 3rd and 4th platform already, and the boat having yet to even see an Olympiad.
Posted By: Marty M

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/20/15 12:47 AM

All the current 17s that aren't the new 17 will be worth what??? image: Pied Piper with children
Posted By: brucat

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/22/15 12:26 AM

Is this a case of not having the cake and eating it too?

The sailors (and other classes in a manner of thinking) voted to make the N17 the Olympic class. No Olympic boat he ever been inexpensive (think variances in established OD boats), and a new design out of the gate can only be worse.

Now ISAF is looking at a foiling option to make this the most exciting Olympic boat ever, and we're complaining?

Mike
Posted By: Jake

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/22/15 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Is this a case of not having the cake and eating it too?

The sailors (and other classes in a manner of thinking) voted to make the N17 the Olympic class. No Olympic boat he ever been inexpensive (think variances in established OD boats), and a new design out of the gate can only be worse.

Now ISAF is looking at a foiling option to make this the most exciting Olympic boat ever, and we're complaining?

Mike


Well, technically, a few guys come out of the woodwork to bad mouth the N17 who were clearly Tornado aficionados.

The upper end of the sport is definitely trending that way. I don't see any harm in the Olympics moving that direction. Cost has affected the field but it hasn't exactly prevent there from being a field. It's always been part of the game.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/22/15 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
]

Well, technically, a few guys come out of the woodwork to bad mouth the N17 who were clearly Tornado aficionados.


That's because the N17 is a garbage boat compared to the build quality of a Marstrom Tornado. I'm not even a T fan. Never owned one, never been on one.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/23/15 02:30 PM

But Karl, the original T boats were cold molded wood. You could bang one out in your shop on a slow weekend...
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/23/15 11:06 PM

Different skill set than what I've got Jay. I'm sure I could do it if I was shown how, the ability and tools are there, just not the knowledge of how a boat is built.
Posted By: Pressure Drop

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/24/15 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
Is this a case of not having the cake and eating it too?

The sailors (and other classes in a manner of thinking) voted to make the N17 the Olympic class. No Olympic boat he ever been inexpensive (think variances in established OD boats), and a new design out of the gate can only be worse.

Now ISAF is looking at a foiling option to make this the most exciting Olympic boat ever, and we're complaining?

Mike


Well, technically, a few guys come out of the woodwork to bad mouth the N17 who were clearly Tornado aficionados.

The upper end of the sport is definitely trending that way. I don't see any harm in the Olympics moving that direction. Cost has affected the field but it hasn't exactly prevent there from being a field. It's always been part of the game.



Uh... the most exciting Olympic boat ever, eh? Tornado was bigger, faster, more refined, more responsive. But now a "dead" class, as everyone likes to say.

People usually like to point out that equipment costs are marginal in the grand scheme of a Games campaign. Okay, that's fair. I will even give to you that a new Marstrom T ran $5-10k more than a new N17. The difference?

Marstrom hulls all from the same mould. The pro sailors didn't have to call up Marstrom and ask about what the current lay-up is like. They didn't have to go to the distributor warehouse and check out 10 sets of hulls before buying one. N17 sailors are doing just that. If you think you can call up your Nacra dealer, put the money down for a new N17, and you'll be sailing the same boat that Bora is sailing, you're dreaming, and you're wrong.

Where is the quality control? There is none. The boat hasn't seen an Olympiad yet and some teams are onto hull set numbers 3 and 4. Sarah just bought her third. Ask her what happened to the second.

What happened on the rare occasion a part broke on a Marstrom T? Do what you want, within the rules, and weigh in. You didn't have to buy a "Marstrom licensed" or "Tornado class licensed" replacement. This is called a monopoly. It benefits nobody other than Nacra. Let's talk about the teams breaking parts at regattas worldwide who were unable to obtain replacements in time to remain competitive because Nacra was behind on production, and you can only use "Nacra licensed" parts.

I'll put all my cards on the table. You guys can keep drinking the Kool-Aid and worshipping the "exciting" new N17. At least have some self-respect and hold yourselves to a higher standard and expect more from Nacra. Either license other manufacturers, or have some accountability for the quality of the product.

I will end with this - how many times in the history of the Tornado class did the class association have a split faction form their own "owner's" class association? Because it's already happening in the N17 class right now. Wake up.
Posted By: brucat

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/24/15 03:29 PM

OK, you have 9 posts here ever in two years, haven't signed any, and they all amount to the same thing: Glorifying the Marstrom Tornado, vilifying the Nacra 17, and insulting anyone who disagrees with your position.

Well, at least you're consistent...

Mike
Posted By: ThunderMuffin

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/24/15 04:27 PM

Quote
I will end with this - how many times in the history of the Tornado class did the class association have a split faction form their own "owner's" class association? Because it's already happening in the N17 class right now. Wake up.


I seem to remember quite the kerfluffle when the T went through the whole "to spin or not to spin" and "we love/hate carbon masts" phases. I could be wrong...

To say that the T was absent of drama is looking at it with pretty rose-colored glasses. Add to that the entire reason why we're in this current Olympic situation is because of the Tornado class' ineptness at liasoning/politicking with ISAF if I recall correctly.


Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/24/15 09:05 PM

Chupacabra...
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/24/15 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
OK, you have 9 posts here ever in two years, haven't signed any, and they all amount to the same thing: Glorifying the Marstrom Tornado, vilifying the Nacra 17, and insulting anyone who disagrees with your position.

Well, at least you're consistent...

Mike


Hard to argue Marstrom's build quality though. Those boats would last multiple campaigns.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/25/15 12:46 AM

Well, who is left competing for the US shot at qualifying for Rio? Probably down to 3 teams or 6 people.... We should ask Sarah N and Matt W and then Mike E if they want the public support here. We(individual sailors, fleets, clubs and class associations could then opt to get behind their requests petitioning US Sailing Olympic to move for changes at ISAF.

I understand sailors not wanting to step forward and complain... but without competitors actually making the case... the critique becomes.. cranky old tornado sailors whining about the good ol days looking to grind that old ax from when we were done wrong.

Will they go on record about their experience?
Posted By: Jake

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/25/15 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by brucat
OK, you have 9 posts here ever in two years, haven't signed any, and they all amount to the same thing: Glorifying the Marstrom Tornado, vilifying the Nacra 17, and insulting anyone who disagrees with your position.

Well, at least you're consistent...

Mike


Hard to argue Marstrom's build quality though. Those boats would last multiple campaigns.


You certainly won't be catching me defending Nacra on that point.
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/25/15 12:51 AM

Lots of information from two guys who haven't been actively racing catamarans in a couple years.
Quick update from airport while en route home from catacup.
Bora: came to look at two boats in stock, took first one, picked up another a few months later without even asking to look at another boat. He wanted two boats to train and race in different places
Sarah and Mike: both took new boats without even asking to look at other boats.
I'd bet the 17 would be faster in quite a few conditions than the tornado.
The boat was never designed to foil, some slight modifications have been made to handle the loads sailors have been introducing.
If you guys want a comparison point, look at the evolution of the 49er, almost same evolution with multiple major hull mods, rig changes and etc. it's the nature of a high performance boat being pushed to the extreme extreme limit, something they almost no sailors on this forum can fathom, heck I can't even keep up with it.
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/25/15 12:53 AM

Oh my god mark.. Where are you getting your data?!
Sarah/ Matt
Mike / Katie
Bora / solving
Mark m/ and ?
Stephanie Hudson / dalton Tebo
And I'm sure there will be a few others sailing ocr
These guys are all sailing serious campaigns still!
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/25/15 12:59 AM

One last thing.. I had long conversations with Sarah, Matt, Mike, Bora, Steph and others. As the NA rep for Nacra I listen to their concerns and bring them back to the guys in holland.
But in all honesty, there are some small complaints, but nothing major anymore. They all can understand how hard they are pushing the boats and notice nacra's effort to improve through minor upgrades and a recent letter that went out to the class addressing many concerns.
Posted By: Marty M

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/25/15 02:25 AM

I will say I have always been amazed at what nacra owners consider acceptable. Last regatta I went to, watched a N 16 get a split hull seam patched about 3 feet from front on the bottom, Not buy daggers trunks, or any loaded area. Last guy to finish the races. Not exactly pushing it hard. But was assured it is normal. SO all is good I guess. Great. Boat about 1 year old.
No problem. No problem . No problem.....No problem .....Boat about 1 year old......If I say no problem one more time all will be OK ...No problem There that's better. Sorry just don't know how to put it so it can be heard.
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/30/15 03:44 AM

Marty,
I appreciate your concern.
I've been a cat sailor my whole life and have faced (and currently am facing) quality issues with Nacra as well as every other brand boat I've sailed (AHPC, Hobie, and my old Nacra).
All the other current high performance catamarans are built in the same factory as Nacra. We all suffer our own minor issues. Of course we wish our boats were flawless, they have gotten a lot better in the past few years.
Most important is that Nacra stands behind our product more than ever. I was made aware of the F16 you speak of but don't know the exact details as a colleaque sorted the situation out. I can tell you that Nacra commented on the damage, advised how to fix it, and paid for the repair.
There has been a recent initiative from Nacra to support the issues 17 sailors are having (if anyone wants to see this please feel free to email me). Additionally, Nacra admitted to falling short on warranty support and ensure this will be changing. This was really well perceived by the sailors. The new boats have reached an acceptable level among the sailors. It's a big task to keep up with the 17 but Nacra has put more manpower behind it and we will keep improving and supporting the sailors.
If anyone has any questions please feel free to email me Todd@NacraSailing.com
-Todd Riccardi
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 11/30/15 02:14 PM

Thank you for your comments Todd. I'm sure this isn't your primary outreach method, but it is nice to see the effort.
Posted By: Marty M

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 12/09/15 03:15 PM

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2015/12/04/trouble-at-the-top-of-the-sport/
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: 2020 Olympic Cat - Foiler? - 12/09/15 05:06 PM

Leaders and followers... aka... politics.

So...we cross off the last leader.... (maybe ISAF looks too much like FIFA and he bailed out ... who knows)

So the article makes a valid point.So... what is vision for international sailing for the next 8 years and secondarily HOW does it guide the USA effort.

What I heard over the past few years was... ISAF wants to grow sailing as a professional sport and leverage their opportunities to make money in global marketing and branding that would in turn support the local and national levels. The major asset they have is the Olympics and so that is what they want to leverage.

Secondarily, they administer the nuts and bolts of international amateur competition.

Are we on board with that program???

Is that the philosophy that would shape our amateur sailing and how?

My assessment is that ISAF has failed at this.... probably because it is a stupid objective.

It seems to me that if you stop flushing money down that rat hole... you have enough cash to administer the amateur sport wisely.

Let those who want to cash in on sailing find their own way. The extreme 40s don't need ISAF, US Sailing and other MNA's to be successful. The Am Cup does not need ISAF, US SAiling and other MNA's to do what they do.

I dare you to try and argue with data that the Am Cup in multihulls has had ANY effect on beach cat or larger multihull sailing. I can't ID any new blood in my part of the world motivated by the AM Cup action.

ISAF leadership has tried to suck on this (pretty dry) teat just like their football buddies in FIFA do ... and It is clear that it won't work.

So... the good news... If they are grifting at ISAF... its probably for peanuts.

Where to now?

As the thread imagines... Foiling is the solution to all that ails sailing?..... yeah.... sure!
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