They are typically not fully releasing themselves from the kite. They pull a rip cord which blows one side of the kite lines and depowers the kite but they are still attached to the bar. Even when they do a full release from the control bar, it is the loop which releases from the control bar, but the hook still stays attached to their spreader bar, so not really applicable to beach cats. The problem in beach cat sailing is that you have a hook (more or less permanently) attached to your body which can snag the boat. Kite hooks are the same way. In fact, kite hooks are much worse because they are designed to NOT unhook.
The ball and socket systems are probably still the safest for cat sailing.
I use a kite quick release in my (elastic) safety leash which connects me during sailing to the cat. ( to a bar at the transom). The hook is connected to my trapeze in front of my chest.
If I capsize, the leash can swing to the end of this bar, giving enough extra length if necessary. So I I'm not hung-up.
In any situation where it's necessary to free myself from the lease, I can do that quickly by shifting the yellow hose away from my chest. The leash will then fall free from the hook.
Ofcourse I have thought of building this mechanism in my trapeze wire. It can be done easily, but you have to shorten your wires accordingly.
OK, now that you've gotten that out of your system, let's put some actual thought into my question.
Enough people die to make this more than a trivial problem. And for all the bloviating bravato here, when you die during a regatta, it affects more than just your life.
However, my point actually isn't about regulations at all. If the ball/socket systems are so superior, we would be happy for them to be the standard.
Clearly, people aren't sold on this, and I'd like to know the technical pros and cons of each system.
I agree. You need to know all of the issues with the existing systems before you can improve.
Not having used any of the other systems, I can only speak to the traditional hook design, but my take is-
Pros: Simple to use, can be engaged/disengaged with one hand without looking. Dependable. Proven design. Works with existing hardware on most boats. Inexpensive. Maintenance free and unaffected by salt, sand, dirt, etc.
Cons: Can occasionally come un-hooked if not under load. Harness hook can accidentally snag on fittings/lines/hardware. May be difficult to use when obstructed by a life jacket. Quick release systems, if included, may be difficult to operate and generally result in loss of the hook if they are used.
My wife got hung up on the downhaul line on our Viper in a capsize and actually pulled the boat over on top of herself. We were able to free her very quickly but extremely scary. I immediately bought 2 versions of the quick release to try out, she hated both. One had a tag on it that said it would not release under load. Never tried the ball type. We now both have the Zhik T2's. On those I believe you could pull the Velcro and free yourself in an emergency.
I'm interested. I had a semi-close call at Charlotte Harbor a couple months ago.
Righted my boat in big breeze and it took off and neither the crew nor I could get up over the front beam. Decided to hand over hand Indiana Jones style under the boat to the back to get ahold of the tiller and steer the boat into the wind.
Great idea until I snagged the righting line with my hook. Pressure from the water / boat speed had me on there pretty good. I remember thinking - oh sh!t this could go bad. Kept my composure and was able to release myself after a couple minutes of dragging. Seemed like forever.
Like I said before in my previous post(page 1), you can try to build in a kite safety release. You just simply buy a socalled leash line (tether) and dismount with a little DIY the actual release mechanism from the leash line itself.
After that, with the same DIY, you mount a shakle on the free end and connect the mechanism to whatever line or wire you want.
After a number of accidents in the early beginning of the kitesport, manufacturers were pressed with their nose on the fact that there were real dangers in kiting. So they searched for and invented several quick-release mechanisms. And in learning kiting its the first thing you learn to handle.
Surprisingly this isn't done in catsailing. On this forum I have spoken a lot of the risks and the measures which you can take. I always had the feeling that this was a bit in vain.
Hope that the original question from Jay in this thread gets a serious follow-up.
P.S. Here's the design of a controllable release mechanism which I added for showing the basic principle. (I'm not sure if this build-in adjustment of the necessary handforce works though):
There are safety concerns with a release mechanism that could come undone unexpectedly too. I've owned several different styles of release mechanisms and was never happy with their real-world operation.
I've had the type that retains the hook with a ball detent system where you can press a button and release the hook from the harness. I never looked very deep into it but I'm guessing that there were some tolerance issues with the one I have but it simply won't release under load (ball detent systems are very sensitive to the shape and depth tolerance of the ball sockets). I've also had systems where the bar itself has a quick release mechanism and I probably like those the best...but they're prone to come undone if that snag on something - and that sucks too.
IMHO, the most unobtrusive solution is to replace the wire trapeze systems with high modulus line and keep a rescue hook knife VERY accessible (mounted inside or on your PFD). We do this for distance races. It will not help if your hook gets caught on something like a shroud but it is an improvement.
I would agree with the "let's not mandate" thoughts EXCEPT that it seems every time someone gets hurt (after deciding they didn't want to use a particular safety item), there are injury/wrongful death lawsuits slung at the organizers, other competitors, etc.
So until that litigation thing stops, I think there is a need to shield organizers and others from litigation by setting some minimum safety standards.
As to the hook thing, I'm interested more in preventing the hook tangle-ups on things other than the harness line, as it seems most of the injuries/deaths occur when the hook snags other things on the boat.
So if we can't change the "hook" design, could we change its location from the harness to the trapeze line itself?
Not that I want a giant fish hook swinging around (or four, in the case of double trap lines), but perhaps an inverted T arrangement ( or perhaps a stronger version of the T-handle?) on the trap line that you could loop your seat harness around. The loop having one of those kitesail release mechanisms integrated into it?
So if you had to release the harness from the trapeze line, pulling the release would uncouple and you'd just have strings dangling from your harness bar (rather than a hook or loop)?
What are the actual pros/cons of the ball/socket systems?
There have been several designs/brands over the decades, I know one guy who still uses (and swears by) the old Sail Safe system. At least, I think that was the name. There's also the Bethwaite, and now this:
Jake's comment was good. Carry a sharp knife. Maybe you could cut your way thru the tramp if you are trapped under it. I use kite string for trap lines, but for day sailing. No handles, or adjustment tackle. They seem to handle some abrasion, but longevity may be a problem.
What are the actual pros/cons of the ball/socket systems?
There have been several designs/brands over the decades, I know one guy who still uses (and swears by) the old Sail Safe system. At least, I think that was the name. There's also the Bethwaite, and now this:
Again, what is the downside of these? And, do those downsides outweigh the risk of our current hooks?
Mike
That thing has not been value engineered! It probably costs $350 each set.
I know some guys that had the ball/socket stuff but they're all back to hooks and rings now. I seem to recall someone explaining that the socket on the harness was just a little tricky to find sometimes. When compared to a ring and hook system, the hook protrudes past all the gear you might be wearing and is pretty easy to locate.
Like anything else, quantity will eventually affect price, and/or competition will force the issue.
It is a safety item, and if this truly solves the problem, it would be hard to argue that the price is too high.
Ease of hookup (and conversely, ease of unplanned swimming) would be a valid concern, but other than hearsay, are these real issues with these designs? Are there conditions that are more likely to separate the ball from the socket (rough water, etc.)?
Again, the ball system from the 80s/90s seems to have worked just fine.
I did some reasearch and the Allen Keyball system linked above retails for about $130 according to Sail magazine's Pittman innovation award. LINK. That's a bit cheaper than I had expected it just by looking at it. However, looking around, I found it available for sale at an Australian outfit for about $175 USD (currency converted). That's a spreader bar and two of the post and ball devices.
I also found some complaints about the old Bethwaite system and this new system...though Allen seems to have been working to resolve the latest complaint there was a failure of the ball resulting in the sailor making a splash. The new Allen system uses an aluminum ball that is swaged onto a short steel cable that is then swaged to the straight aluminum handle. This gives it the needed flexibility to not jam in "U" shaped receiver if you twist your body like many of us do on the trapeze to face more forward. I would be concerned about that system not eventually setting a wonky bend into the wire leading to reliability issues.
Which leads me to one of the complaints with the older Bethwaite system...Apparently, the ball would sometimes jam as a result of this twisting and the carbon plate that formed the spreader bar could be really harsh on the straps leading to some failures. The system would wear and have to be replaced semi-regularly.
There are also complaints about the system being too easy to dislodge from the receiver but it also sounds like a lot of these dinghy guys are just running a bunji straight from the ball device to the boat and not up through the trapeze system like we normally do on the cats.
After the death of an 18' sailor in our club, just over a year ago, some of us looked into alternative trapeze mechs that might be safer. The Bethwaite key - ball system seemed interesting but were apparently unavailable, and the revised version by Allen hadn't yet been released.
I looked into the key-ball type system and realised that it's not nearly as simple as what it seems on the surface - the keyhole geometry would need to be carefully designed and sized, so as not to get a 'false' hook up, yet release easily. The ball would have to be flexible so it doesn't jam if you roll to one side in the harness, but stiff enough to engage and disengage reliably. The ball has to be somewhat protected by a stick so it doesn't pop your eyeball out every tack. These are some of the more obvious things. I realised to do something better (than hook and loop) would require major effort. As said the height of the elastic should be adjusted to suit your own trapezing style, whether you want it to spring out when unloaded or remain hooked in until you're seated. The ball on a longer stick could be a handy variation for one-arm hookups, some classes prefer this.
I think it's a good idea. I hope everyone persists in trialling and evolving the idea to perfection.
A couple of points: - The keyhole spreader bar is only 10" wide, stock width for a Magic Marine spreader for L or XL harnesses is 12". The narrower spreader bar isn't nearly as comfortable for long days on the wire.
- Keyhole spreader bar is ~$150 each and you have to buy the ball attachments for $30/pair; add shipping, you're up to ~$200 on top of the cost of your already expensive harness.
- Now figure that the crew and skipper need to be able to trade wires when going downwind; double the cost from above.
- If you sail on multiple boats/multiple skippers/crews; now you get to change spreader bars depending on the boat and get used to the slight change that each system requires in how you hook up and release. The setup that we use is minimalist, but I can use it blindfolded; missing and falling off sucks.
- Keyhole system doesn't fit all harnesses; e.g. Zhik T2, Magic Marine Viper.
I'll admit, the current Magic Marine quick release spreader bar that I have doesn't instill a lot of confidence and I need to order a new non-release one. I've seen people get separated from their boats due to a failure in their spreader bar and/or trap ring; one of them caused a significant hand injury. I'm more worried about having a failure, taking a swim and getting separated from the boat than I am getting tangled up.
Regardless of all this; number one, YOU and you alone are responsible for your own safety. Therefore, each person has to decide where the greatest risk is and how best to mitigate it if they so choose. Personally, I prefer something that I know won't fail; as such, I have to be more careful in other areas (not putting hole in boat with hook and clearing hook if/when capsize occurs).
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