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Nacra Class Rules

Posted By: abbman

Nacra Class Rules - 05/19/16 02:12 PM

Can anyone direct me to the Nacra Class Rules? I am having trouble finding them. I am specifically looking for rules pertaining to the 5.2 class, even though I know they are no longer in production. Specifically, I am looking for the rules that state main sail and jib sail requirements for class racing. This is to determine conformity of a sail being used at my local club for open portsmouth racing. I believe the Nacra 5.2 rules, in their last version, required a class legal boat to carry the original pin-top sail plan. Any help in locating these documents would be greatly appreciated.
Posted By: jaybird1111

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 05/19/16 02:59 PM


Nacra Class Rules
Pertaining to One Design Control as Amended for North America
4.5 450 5.0 500 5.2 5.5uni 5.5sl 5.7 570 5.8 5.8na 6.0na

1. OBJECT OF CLASS RULES

1.1 The International Nacra Class Catamarans are each a one design
manufacturers class. The rules, official plans and specifications are
intended to ensure that the catamarans of these classes are as nearly as possible the same in regards to shape, weight of hulls, daggerboards, rudders, spars, sails, and that the equipment is simple, functional and dependable. The ultimate intent is to encourage the use of only racing tactics and sailing skill to increase boat speed.

2. PROTECTION OF INT'L NACRA CLASS DESIGNS
2.1 Unless otherwise specified in these rules, all parts of these Nacra Class Catamarans are strictly controlled. Interpretations of these rules shall be given by Nacra in consultation with proper committees of the International Nacra Class Association (hereinafter referred to as INCA). In the event of a conflict between rules, official plans, measurement form and/or measurement diagram, the matter shall be referred to INCA, (NOTE: To doubly guard against "loophole restruction" of these fine International Class Catamarans and their potential for lasting racing pleasure, every deviation which is not specifically spelled out by plans, specifications or Design Rule is assumed illegal until approved and thus recorded in writing by those administering the Class Designing Rules.

2.2 MOLD All molds, patterns and templates for the hulls, daggerboards, and rudders shall be constructed solely by Nacra or the builders licensed for that purpose by Nacra, for Nacra.

2.3 ALTERATIONS TO MOLDS. No alterations shall be made to any molds,
official patterns or templates.

2. 4 CONTROL OF MOLDS. All molds shall be pulled from the official class plugs maintained by Performance Catamarans, Inc. (hereinafter referred to as P.C., Inc.), and shall not be modified in shape except to fair any surface imperfections.

3. HULLS, DAGGERBOARDS AND RUDDERS
3.1 THE MANUFACTURE of hulls, daggerboards and rudders is strictly controlled by Nacra. Licenses to build these components are issued by Nacra for Nacra.

3. 2 ALTERATIONS to hull, daggerboards and rudders. Grinding, planing,
sanding and/or application of putty, fillers and coatings on the outside surface are permitted provided that it is undertaken to fair local imperfections in these surfaces or to improve the surface finish and not to alter the intended shape of any surface.


3.3 LIGHTENlNG OF HULLS.
The hulls may not be lightened in any manner. A maximum of three inspection ports per hull are allowed. Inspection ports are not permitted forward of the main beam. None may have an opening larger than 6".

3.4 RUDDERS.
The rudder and rudder stock assembly, including the method of attachment to the transom is not to be modified. Rudders may be raked to attain helm balance.

3.5 DAGGERBOARD.
The top of the daggerboard may not be inserted below the deck level. Hand holds in the daggerboards may be added. The bottom of the handholds will then be considered the top of the daggerboard and may not be inserted below deck level. No part of the daggerboard or daggerboard well may be removed or added for the purpose of varying rake. All daggerboards manufactured by Nacra are legal for racing except ones which require modification of daggerboard or daggerboard well to accommodate them.

4. SPARS

4.1 CONSTRUCTION.
The material, method of construction and design of the spars shall be in accordance with these rules and official Spar Plan. The mast, spreader, boom, beam, tiller and tiller tie bars shall be fabricated only by Nacra for Nacra.

4.1a. Carbon mast by a licensed builder is considered class legal in the 5.5uni.

4.1b Only carbon masts built prior to August 31, 1997 and registered and approved with class association will be class legal on the Nacra 6.0na.

4.2 MAST.
The extrusion length and position of the mast head, mast hound, jib halyard strap eye, spreader and mast base are not to be altered in any manner. The gooseneck may not be lower than 10' from the bottom of the extrusion. Diamond wire tangs may not be raised or lowered but may be moved either to the front or side of the mast.

4.3 SPREADERS.
The spreader arm lengths may not be altered. Nacra adjustable rake spreaders are allowable on all models. The diamond wires are to be securely attached at the spreader ends.

4.4 BOOM.
The extrusion length and the method of attachment to the gooseneck are not to be altered. The mainsheet blocks are to be hung from permanently fixed bales. On the 5.2, bales may not be affixed aft of the original position. All other running rigging hardware is optional. No booms may be used on boomless designed rigs.


4.5 Bridle Foils.
The 5.5sl., 5.8na., and 6.0na. bridle foil lengths, hardware, and fittings may not be altered. 6.0 may use original foil when modified to na rig.

4.6 MAIN BEAM.
The extrusion length. mast step and dolphin striker assembly are not to be altered. Internal controls may be installed.

4.7 REAR BEAM.
The rear beam may not be altered with the following exceptions: The stops under the beam may be altered to allow hull alignment. Internal controls may be installed for crew restrainer system only.

4.8 TILLERS, TILLER TIE BAR AND EXTENSION.
Tillers may be toed-in and tiller tie bar shortened. Tiller extensions
(hiking sticks) and design are optional.

4.8a Tiller to tiller tie bar connection fittings are open to modification or change.

4.9 LIGHTENING OF SPARS.
No holes may be drilled, filed or cut into any manufacturer supplied
component, spar or casting for the purpose of reducing weight.

5. RIGGING

5.1 CONSTRUCTION.
All standard rigging (including diamond wires) shall conform with the wire types and,diameters shown in the manufacturers rigging schedule. Running rigging and associated fittings, sizes, types and lengths are optional. The main halyard, jib halyard and trapeze wire diameters shalt not to be less than those shown in the rigging schedule. Rope tails on halyards are permitted. Jib halyards may not be led internally in the mast. Halyards must be long enough to raise and lower sails while the boat is in an upright position. (NOTE: Bridle length is measured from bearing point to bearing point. The 4.5 and 5.0 bridle length includes shackle attachment to bow. The 5.8na bridle (hull to foil) attachment hardware is open to: stainless steel wire or fittings (ie., stay adjuster, turnbuckle, etc.)

Rigging Schedule Wire Type Diameter Class Lengths
Shrouds 1X19 5/32
Forestay 1x19 5/32
Diamond Wires 1x19 1/8
Main Halyard 7x19 1/8
Jib Halyard 7x19 1/8
Trapeze Wires 1x19 3/32
Bridle 1x19 5/32 4.5/450: 3'10-3/4"
Bridle 1x19 5132 5.0/500: 4' 1-1/4"
Bridle 1x19 5/32 5.2: 3' 11"
Bridle 1x19 5/32 5.5uni: 18 '7 I/2"
Bridle 1x19 5/32 5.5sl: 18"
Bridle 1x19 5/32 5.7/570: 4' 1-1/4"
Bridle 1x19 5/32 5.8: 3' 10-1/2"
Bridle 1x19 5/32 5.8na: 6-5/8"
Bridle 1x19 5/32 6.0na: 11-1/2"
Bridle 1x19 5/32 182: 19' 3/4"
5.2 MAIN AND JIB LUFF tension systems are optional but may not be led inside the mast. (Note: Refer to 5.6c)

5.3 TRAPEZE.
Double trapeze is allowed on all but the 4.5, 450 and 5.5uni models, No continuous trapeze systems are allowed.

5.4 FOOT STRAPS, SAFETY LINES, or the like may be added to assist the crew to trapeze. Hiking assist inboard is optional.

5.5 ALTERATIONS. Lengths of bridal wires are not to be altered. Jib tack attachment may not be below bridle intersection- The forestay or its extension is to be attached at the bridle intersection. The forestay, shrouds, and diamond wires shall not be adjusted while racing.

5.6 EQUIPMENT may be added or changed to conform with current or previously supplied Nacra series production equipment. All such equipment supplied by Nacra shall be considered class legal.

5.6a Main sheet purchase may not exceed 8:1 on any boat. Multipliers or fine tune systems are not allowed.

5.6b Trampolines on all boats manufactured with a 1995 serial number and newer must be equipped with a Nacra licensed tramp. Hiking straps, gear and spinnaker bags may be added. The size, shape and attachment method of trampolines may not be altered.

5.6c Downhaul 4.5, 450 may not exceed 4:1; 5.0, 5.2 and 5.7 may not exceed 8:1 purchase. Nacra 5.5sl, Uni, 5.8, 5.8na and 6.0na may not exceed 16 to 1. All purchases above 8:1 may void manufacturers warranty.

5.6d Jib downhauls may not exceed 3:1 on 4.5, 5.0, 5.2, 5.7, and 8:1 on 5.5sl, 5.8na, and 6.0na. (Note: These purchases may void warranty)

5.7 RACING If, during a racing series, failure of a part appears imminent or is damaged or broken, the affected equipment (only) may be repaired or replaced. Repair or replacement may only be made using class legal equipment.

5.8 RUNNING RIGGING and associated blocks, shackles and cleats are not
controlled except as specified in these rules.

6. SAILS AND BATTENS

6.1 CONSTRUCTION. The material, method of construction and design of the sails shall the in accordance with the sail plan. The sails for the Nacra 4.5, 4.5uni, 5.0, 5.2, 5.5 uni, 5.5 SL, 5.7, 5.8, 5.8na and 6.0na shall be built for Nacra from patterns and sail cloth approved by Nacra. Sails shall be fabricated by builders licensed by Nacra for Nacra. Battens may be of wood, carbon, foam fiberglass. A set may consist of a combination of these types. All but the bottom batten must be used for racing (only one batten per pocket is permitted).

6.2a ALTERATIONS. The jibsail may not be recut. Windows, telltale windows, and chart pockets are optional. Class insignias may not be repositioned or altered in any manner.

6.2b SAIL REINFORCEMENT. Chaffing strips may be added to the mainsail
batten pockets where they come in contact with the shrouds. Spreader patches are allowed.

6.3 LUFF ROPE. The entire mainsail luff rope must be in the mast luff
grooves except where the sail extends below the bottom of the extrusion on boomless rigs.

6.4 CLEW TRAVELER. A clew traveler assembly (factory supplied) may be added to any boomless sail plan that was not equipped with one originally.

6.5 SAIL REPAIR. Any sailmaker may make minor repairs to a damaged Nacra sail. Minor repair is defined as a repair that does not alter the original shape or outline of the sail. Should a sail be so badly damaged as to require a large percentage of new material, such as a complete panel replacement, it should be returned to an INCA licensed sailmaker.

7. CREW AND BOAT WEIGHTS: Class Legal Minimums
7.1a The 4.5/450 class legal minimum crew weight is 135lbs. (minimum person)

7.1c The 5.0/500 class legal minimum crew weight is 260 lbs- (minimum two people),

7.1d The 5.2 class legal minimum crew weight is 280 lbs. (minimum two
people).

7.1e The 5.5 uni class legal minimum crew weight is 150 lbs. (minimum one person),

7.1f The 5.5sl class legal minimum crew weight is 275 lbs.. (minimum two people). 5.5sl without jib is considered a class legal 5.5uni.

7.1g The 5.7/570 class legal minimum crew weight is 290 lbs. (minimum two people).

7.1h The 5.8/5.8na class legal minimum crew weight is 290 lbs. (minimum two people). A class legal 5.8 must weigh 420 lbs. minimum.

7.1i The 6.0na class legal minimum crew weight is 325 lbs. (minimum two people).

7.2 WEIGHT.
7.2a. CREW WEIGHT
Minimum crew weights shall apply to all sanctioned Nacra regattas. Crews are to be weighed bare-footed and wear as a maximum, clothing consisting of one pair of shorts or pants (pockets empty) and one t-shirt or similar. Normal undergarments may also be worn with the aforementioned clothing. The maximum amount of weight to be added to reach legal class weights exceed:
7.2b. BOAT WEIGHT
Boats not reaching class crew weights are considered not class legal.

7.3 CORRECTION WEIGHTS.
Boats and crew correction weights must be separate weights. Boat and crew correction weights must be secured on the boat in a stationary position and be easily accessible for inspection.

7.4 SAFETY EQUIPMENT.
All Nacra catamarans must carry safety equipment required by the Coast Guard while racing.

7.4a One Coast Guard approved type I, II or III PFD must be worn by each crewmember while racing.

7.4b A righting line of 3/8" minimum diameter and 14' minimum length.

7.5 CREW BALLAST. Additional clothing, vests or containers may not be worn or carried while racing for the purpose of varying or increasing crew weight when so desired.

8. SPINNAKERS, POLES, AND RIGGING
8.1 Spinnakers are not considered class legal for Nacra sanction regattas, but are legal for long distance type regattas if the Nacras are racing against one another as a one design class. Spinnakers shall be fabricated by builders licensed by Nacra for Nacra. Spinnakers may not be re-cut.

8.2 POLES
Lengths shall not exceed: 5.5sl - 11' 6"; 5.8/5.8na - 12';
6.0na - 12' 6" Construction and attachment is left to the boat owner.

8.3 Rigging spinnaker attachment point shall be 36" above the top of the mast
hound. All lines and blocks are left to the boat owner. The boat stock
configurations may not altered, when rigging the boat for spinnaker [example: changing bridle length, foiler, and/or any change that would change the structure of said boat.] Adding a spinnaker may void any manufacture warranty.

9. WARRANTY
9.1 MODIFICATION allowed by these class rules may not necessarily be covered by the manufacturer's warranty.

10. COMMUNICATIONS, RULE INTERPRETATION AND AMENDMENTS

10.1 Valid questions regarding these rules must be mailed to INCA
headquarters.

10.2 Class rules may vary slightly from one country to another. Do not assume that the rules that apply for the U.S. will apply in another country. Be certain to familiarize yourself with the class rules of the country in which you are competing. A licensed Nacra builder in another country may modify the INCA class rules for that country provided that they have been approved by Nacra USA.

10.2a The manufacturer (Nacra) reserves the right to make changes to the class rules, if the class [4.5 etc.] membership falls below fifty active class members.

10.2b Class vote is to be held only by active class members, that are class members prior to the issue being voted on. An Active class member is a Nacra class boat owner, who annual class dues have been paid.

10.2c Annual Class Dues cover membership membership from Jan. 1st. thru Dec. 31 st. of the year paid.

10.3 For International Events the class rules will be approved by INCA and the Nacra manufacturer and listed in the racing instructions.

10.4 INCA consists of a governing board of directors, Fleet Directors, and an Official Rules and Policies Committee. Class rules are governed by the manufacturer.

10.4a Rules changes a proposal to amend an existing class rule or a change in a boat design. Send a detailed letter to Rules and policies committee. Ballot wording and content is the responsibility of the Rules And Policies Committee.






The INCA mailing address is:

International Nacra Class Association
1800 East Borchard Avenue
Santa Ana, California 92705
U.S.A.

revisions

7.1a changed

7.1b removed
















Posted By: abbman

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 05/19/16 03:03 PM

You're the man! Thanks a million! Hopefully this will help us resolve some issues.
Posted By: tshan

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 05/19/16 05:34 PM

What other sail makers are licensed by NACRA (besides EP)?
Posted By: abbman

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 05/19/16 06:43 PM

I'm not sure about that one, but where do you sail tshan? I see you are in Eastern NC.
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 05/20/16 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by tshan
What other sail makers are licensed by NACRA (besides EP)?


Performance Sails is making all Nacra sails now but I would have to say that they probably don't make many 5.2 sails. EP would be about it.

As far as sail area goes, sailboatdata.com is usually pretty accurate but they only list a total sail area of 220 ft^2.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4176

I dug through my old photos and it's probably good to archive them...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/teamseacats/albums/72157668626370955


Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 05/20/16 02:33 AM

And now you see the problem with the older Nacra one design class rules. They don't publish sail area or measurement rules (check the F18 rules for an example of what I'm talking about). This is a problem when actually checking if a boat conforms to the rules (it's easy to peel a sticker and put it on a non class legal sail). It also hampers sail development, and makes life difficult when the builder drops support.

For example, the N20 with Glaser sails is a much faster boat than the EP version in a majority of conditions one actually wants to sail in. Not sure if the performance sails for the boat are on par, I heard the main cut was a bit off and more to the euro spec (smaller sail plan overall) than the North American spec. I haven't seen the sails myself so that is just hearsay but measure twice cut once applies here.

5.2 is totally different, your best bet is it measure the newest known class legal sail and go from there. Also recommend looking at SCHRS, it may handle your discrepancies a bit more cleanly than Portsmouth.
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 05/23/16 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by abbman
Can anyone direct me to the Nacra Class Rules? I am having trouble finding them. I am specifically looking for rules pertaining to the 5.2 class, even though I know they are no longer in production. Specifically, I am looking for the rules that state main sail and jib sail requirements for class racing. This is to determine conformity of a sail being used at my local club for open portsmouth racing. I believe the Nacra 5.2 rules, in their last version, required a class legal boat to carry the original pin-top sail plan. Any help in locating these documents would be greatly appreciated.


From what I understand; just about all of the 5.2 sails we made from Dacron and made by Elliott Patteson.

I would put the burden of proof back on the owner... unless they can prove otherwise they should take non-class legal sail hit... DP-N X .995 in this case 72.1 X .995 = 71.73.

Quote
MN For non-class legal mainsail, of same sail area or less than class legal mainsail (use to be the Sq Top rule)


Is the boat in question sailing with a square top sail then its a .980 factor... 72.1 X .980 = 70.65

Quote
ML - For non-class legal mainsail, of greater sail area (>5%) than standard main.


But, and there is always a but... with these sails hitting 30 plus years old and many folks upgrading their sails out of necessity; if it is a pin top I would let it go, square top use the modification factor...
Posted By: dave mosley

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/01/16 07:47 PM

Is it a sq top? Use the correction Ventucky Red provided and I really wouldn't worry about the jib. If the jib is standard cut its oversized and probably more of a hindrance than a help. If anyone re-works an old 5.2 I suggest a self tacker with a small F18 jib and a Sq top. The jib tracks were never my favorite on these boats as they were run through the tramp.
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/02/16 03:31 PM

Okay, let's clear the air here because this is very important.

Nacra does not currently offer class rules for any of our boats that are not current racing classes.
Having class rules to cover multiple classes of boats is too broad and there are too many variables to make accurate and fair class rules.
Additionally, we donít want to dictate class rules fully from the manufacturer. Any of our current "manufacturer supplied classes" we work with the class to finalize all rules.
There are class rules for specific active classes run by the class.
If a group of Nacra owners wants to form a class and make class rules then we would support that.
In the meantime, any boats that are stock adhere to the standard portsmouth or other rating number and those that donít will take a deduction in their rating per the handicap system being used.
Stock is as supplied or identical to the OEM.

Class legal sails, Itís easiest to go to Elliot Patterson and have them make you sails. Any non-OEM cut from EP or anyone other sailmaker would not be class legal and would require a modification.
Nacra approves Elliot Patterson for all boats that they made OEM sails for. That is all boats through the Nacra F18 and Nacra 20 essentially boat built through 2005, Performance Sails are the approved sails for all Nacras. My personal recommendation would be to go to Elliot Patterson for the Nacra 4.5, 5.0, 5.2, 5.5, 5.7, 5.8, and 6.0, again, these sails from EP that match the OEM design would be class legal.

Regards,
Todd Riccardi
Nacra North America
Todd@Nacrasailing.com
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/05/16 07:22 AM

http://www.goosemarine.com.au/content/Other-2010-Nacra-class-rules.pdf
If you go to this link it makes it pretty obvious for Aus sailors what the current rules are, next thing is to contact Nacra US and get a copy of their current rules
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/06/16 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by wildtsail7

In the meantime, any boats that are stock adhere to the standard portsmouth or other rating number and those that donít will take a deduction in their rating per the handicap system being used.
Stock is as supplied or identical to the OEM.

Regards,
Todd Riccardi
Nacra North America
Todd@Nacrasailing.com


Thanks for making this observation Todd... this is something I have been trying to explain for the past couple of years... as detailed above, that is unless it is the sail that came with the boat or new sail built built by the OEM sail maker to those specs then you need to take the modification... as the DP-N rating was done with the "stock" equipment..

Glad to see I am not the only one interpreting this with the DP-N and modification factors..



Posted By: catman

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/06/16 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by wildtsail7

In the meantime, any boats that are stock adhere to the standard portsmouth or other rating number and those that donít will take a deduction in their rating per the handicap system being used.
Stock is as supplied or identical to the OEM.

Regards,
Todd Riccardi
Nacra North America
Todd@Nacrasailing.com


Thanks for making this observation Todd... this is something I have been trying to explain for the past couple of years... as detailed above, that is unless it is the sail that came with the boat or new sail built built by the OEM sail maker to those specs then you need to take the modification... as the DP-N rating was done with the "stock" equipment..

Glad to see I am not the only one interpreting this with the DP-N and modification factors..





I see things a little differently.

If your not sailing in an active class and by that I mean 5 boats or more on the course there is no class.

My comments here pertain to sails.

For us and our races we do not hit someone for not having a class approved sail as long as it's within +/- 5% of the stock square footage or fits to a set of stock length battens and of the same style (pin head or square). Material and manufacturer does not matter.
Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/06/16 08:55 PM

Where is this dead class provision written? Seems like a viable solution, so long as not abused by a competitor.

Mike
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/06/16 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by catman
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by wildtsail7

In the meantime, any boats that are stock adhere to the standard portsmouth or other rating number and those that donít will take a deduction in their rating per the handicap system being used.
Stock is as supplied or identical to the OEM.

Regards,
Todd Riccardi
Nacra North America
Todd@Nacrasailing.com


Thanks for making this observation Todd... this is something I have been trying to explain for the past couple of years... as detailed above, that is unless it is the sail that came with the boat or new sail built built by the OEM sail maker to those specs then you need to take the modification... as the DP-N rating was done with the "stock" equipment..

Glad to see I am not the only one interpreting this with the DP-N and modification factors..





I see things a little differently.

If your not sailing in an active class and by that I mean 5 boats or more on the course there is no class.

My comments here pertain to sails.

For us and our races we do not hit someone for not having a class approved sail as long as it's within +/- 5% of the stock square footage or fits to a set of stock length battens and of the same style (pin head or square). Material and manufacturer does not matter.


We're not discussing class racing here we're discussing Portsmouth Handicapping... To me there is a difference...

The rating for the 5.2 is 72.1.. this came about with the stock cross cut Dacron sail that was designed in what 1978 shocked

Say you go out and get a newer sail using newer materials, design, and technology. You don't think there is an advantage to another 5.2 sailing that day with a stock sail even if it is a brand new one built by EP? Certainly there have been some improvements in sail making knowledge in the past 38 years... I think Portsmouth / US Failing in their infinite wisdom sees this.. hence the modification factor

Let's say your sail has a higher aspect ratio or maybe even a bi-radial sail... due to computer modeling and designing... something not around in 1978... you're is still a pin top and still less than 5% total area... but....

As I stated earlier, I don't get into the discussion much as I have not seen too many new sails that weren't a square top and that makes the conversation pretty easy.

Add in... wasn't there a big pissing contest a while back with the NACRA 20 sailors regarding someone other than EP (which were the "official" class sail) making the sails and their not taking a modification factor.... seemed the new sail maker hit the mark with a better designed sail making those boats a little faster...




Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/06/16 11:22 PM

Ventucky, I will speak primarily to the Nacra 20 issue but this applies to all. First, there are a few different issues at stake here:

1) Portsmouth is pretty dead. Boats should be using SCHRS IMO, and they have clear guidelines on how to measure a boat to get a rating (if it differs from stock). Really it is looking at total sail area (power) to length and weight

2) On the 20, and really any older Nacra built boat, it was/is up to the owners to maintain the class as Todd has stated, and this is where the problem lies. The owners never took this upon themselves (well, we tried but it was too little too late), but EP/Nacra did the 20 fleet no favors by failing to publish class legal sail specifications. Several builders (Glaser, Schurr sails, Smyth, Calvert even) have built sails for N20's at this point (search Open 20), and those are sort of obvious, but how they differ from the class legal EP sails is a bit unclear, because there are no measurements published for a class legal N20 main/jib/kite. To further obfuscate the matter, not all EP N20 sails are built to the same templates. Perhaps they start out that way, perhaps they don't, regardless, I have evaluated N20 EP kites stacked on top of each other, under tension, and noticed upwards of 5" of luff length discrepancy between batches of kites. Some kites were stitched from the factor, some weren't, they all were class legal N20 EP built spinnakers. Further, a sticker is a sticker, you can remove an EP sticker and place it on a Glaser sail for example. I don't think 99% of the populace would do such a thing, but in a very competitive race billed as taking place in single manufacturer one-design boat (which is what the N20 class was billed as when Nacra was wholly owned and operated in the U.S), certain individuals with highly competitive juices may have been swapping stickers on certain sails between days to gain a competitive edge. This sort of nonsense was mostly eliminated in the F18 class by use of a published measurement template.
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/06/16 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
Ventucky, I will speak primarily to the Nacra 20 issue but this applies to all. First, there are a few different issues at stake here:

1) Portsmouth is pretty dead. Boats should be using SCHRS IMO, and they have clear guidelines on how to measure a boat to get a rating (if it differs from stock). Really it is looking at total sail area (power) to length and weight

2) On the 20, and really any older Nacra built boat, it was/is up to the owners to maintain the class as Todd has stated, and this is where the problem lies. The owners never took this upon themselves (well, we tried but it was too little too late), but EP/Nacra did the 20 fleet no favors by failing to publish class legal sail specifications. Several builders (Glaser, Schurr sails, Smyth, Calvert even) have built sails for N20's at this point (search Open 20), and those are sort of obvious, but how they differ from the class legal EP sails is a bit unclear, because there are no measurements published for a class legal N20 main/jib/kite. To further obfuscate the matter, not all EP N20 sails are built to the same templates. Perhaps they start out that way, perhaps they don't, regardless, I have evaluated N20 EP kites stacked on top of each other, under tension, and noticed upwards of 5" of luff length discrepancy between batches of kites. Some kites were stitched from the factor, some weren't, they all were class legal N20 EP built spinnakers. Further, a sticker is a sticker, you can remove an EP sticker and place it on a Glaser sail for example. I don't think 99% of the populace would do such a thing, but in a very competitive race billed as taking place in single manufacturer one-design boat (which is what the N20 class was billed as when Nacra was wholly owned and operated in the U.S), certain individuals with highly competitive juices may have been swapping stickers on certain sails between days to gain a competitive edge. This sort of nonsense was mostly eliminated in the F18 class by use of a published measurement template.


Amen to point #1...

Regarding the NACRA 20 deal, thanks for clearing that up.... I was misinformed by a past Inter 20 sailor that I now feel had an ax to grind...

Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/07/16 12:04 AM

Does SCHRS adequately handle the "modern vs. primitive" sail design problem (given the example above with two sails built differently, but with the same dimensions)?

Mike
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/07/16 12:09 PM

Mike,

Here is the SCHRS measurement formula: http://www.schrs.com/measurements.php#mainsail

Two sails built differently but with the same dimensions: if this is the case, their are still usually small differences in dimension, and if not, my opinion is the newer sail will perform better than the old sail, simply because it is newer. The cut and material impact this some, but as an example, different F18 sail (totally different lofts, totally different materials) are built to the same dimension, and yes there have been some advancements over the years but its always the best sailors at the top of the fleet.
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/07/16 03:05 PM

From what I understand, on a upwind/downwind course a bi-radial main and a tri radial jib will have an advantage over cross cut sail.

Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/07/16 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
From what I understand, on a upwind/downwind course a bi-radial main and a tri radial jib will have an advantage over cross cut sail.



Yeah, but man, talk about splitting hairs. You guys are talking about the last remaining 1% of performance on sailors who typically aren't within a 20% max performance window. Handicap racing simply isn't serious enough to sweat such fine immeasurable details. There are conditions and situations where the dacron sail will outperform the mylar. If you really want your racing to be that close and precise, you have to go one design. If racing handicap, just get a number that's close and get on the water. You'll lose the equivalent of several portsmouth handicap points with one crappy start.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/07/16 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
You'll lose the equivalent of several portsmouth handicap points with one crappy start.


You, sir, have obviously been watching my starts lately... smile
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/07/16 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
From what I understand, on a upwind/downwind course a bi-radial main and a tri radial jib will have an advantage over cross cut sail.



Yeah, but man, talk about splitting hairs. You guys are talking about the last remaining 1% of performance on sailors who typically aren't within a 20% max performance window. Handicap racing simply isn't serious enough to sweat such fine immeasurable details. There are conditions and situations where the dacron sail will outperform the mylar. If you really want your racing to be that close and precise, you have to go one design. If racing handicap, just get a number that's close and get on the water. You'll lose the equivalent of several portsmouth handicap points with one crappy start.


Probally so... but it is moot anyway... like stated earlier with the exception of a few die in the wool Hobie sailors that are still "class" racing; just about every older boat with new sails I am seeing these days has gone to a squaretop...

Regarging setting a rating... the policy I have adopted is you tell us what you think you are and we're good with it... should someone in the race complain, then we're gonna take a look... I have found the saling as a whole is group are pretty straight forawrd honest people.



Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/07/16 11:06 PM

I agree that most people come into this with the right intentions.

My question about SCHRS was to see if it handles the sail design problem any better than Portsmouth (it doesn't). It does handle size differences, of course someone needs to measure that.

Aside from that, I fully agree with Jake, but the funny thing about handicap sailing (under any system) is that when people lose, they rarely blame their errors (bad starts, blown tacks, going the wrong way), and spend too much time complaining about the unfairness of the (insert system name here) numbers.

Mike
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/08/16 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by brucat
I agree that most people come into this with the right intentions.

My question about SCHRS was to see if it handles the sail design problem any better than Portsmouth (it doesn't). It does handle size differences, of course someone needs to measure that.

Aside from that, I fully agree with Jake, but the funny thing about handicap sailing (under any system) is that when people lose, they rarely blame their errors (bad starts, blown tacks, going the wrong way), and spend too much time complaining about the unfairness of the (insert system name here) numbers.

Mike


Would be nice if there was an easy way to do this... measure sails that is... but the honor system and what Portsmouth currently has works for us.

Of course you're going to have someone whining at the end of a race.... it is the nature of the beast..
Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/08/16 12:47 PM

Agreed. I think you hit the nail on the head, find what works for your event (sailors) and focus on having a good time.

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/08/16 02:41 PM

+1. Except for those who are hell bent on making some sort of living out of this sport, the rest of us need to understand the regattas you spend so much effort organizing, overseeing and marketing are designed so:

- you get to sail/hang out with folks with similar interest
- you go around in circles a few times
- you brush up/improve your boat/sail handling skills
- you learn rules and strategy better
- you pick up tips from those really good sailors
- you take home stories of bad card games, karoke, cheap drinks, good/bad races, etc.
- you MIGHT take home "street cred", tropies, case of the sh*ts (or worse if you hang out with the SA crowd)

The PRO's job is to try and make the playing field level, especially for regattas that aren't part of some championship ladder (which is probably 90%+ of the regattas out there currently)

Their job is not to baby-sit or Measure Nazi those who decide that cheating (or pushing the rules way beyond reasonable interpretation) is the only way to win. Sitting through hours of petitions for redress / protests because some seaweed got caught in your rudder, or your Franken boat broke parts because you don't maintain them, just doesn't make sense. If you want that crap, sign up for the really top-level events (OCR, Nationals, etc), OD/SMOD, etc. and make sure you are up to snuff.

Each competitor has to ask the hard question "am I here to SAIL, or to WIN"? Sure, both is great but there can only be one winner and the rest of us are "layline fodder". Accept that and have fun with it.

Yes, I'm certain I am naive, but I've never finished a PHRF regatta and think I shouldn't have sailed it because I didn't win
Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/08/16 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
From what I understand, on a upwind/downwind course a bi-radial main and a tri radial jib will have an advantage over cross cut sail.



Yeah, but man, talk about splitting hairs. You guys are talking about the last remaining 1% of performance on sailors who typically aren't within a 20% max performance window. Handicap racing simply isn't serious enough to sweat such fine immeasurable details. There are conditions and situations where the dacron sail will outperform the mylar. If you really want your racing to be that close and precise, you have to go one design. If racing handicap, just get a number that's close and get on the water. You'll lose the equivalent of several portsmouth handicap points with one crappy start.


Probally so... but it is moot anyway... like stated earlier with the exception of a few die in the wool Hobie sailors that are still "class" racing; just about every older boat with new sails I am seeing these days has gone to a squaretop...

Regarging setting a rating... the policy I have adopted is you tell us what you think you are and we're good with it... should someone in the race complain, then we're gonna take a look... I have found the saling as a whole is group are pretty straight forawrd honest people.





F18, F16, A-cat...but I digress. Carry on.
Posted By: catman

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/08/16 10:19 PM

I don't think measuring the sail is such a big deal. The sail maker should certify the sq footage and mark the sail. This is advantage of having someone other than the boat builder making the sails.

To further what Sam was saying about Nacra,

I had some questions about a guy with a Hobie 17 with a square top. He was asked straight up if his sail was within the 5% because he only claimed the MN hit. He assured us that it was. He's not the nicest guy and after seeing a stock 17 next to his I finally wanted to know if he was honest. So I contacted his sail maker and asked about that sail.

This was the sail makers response. I have sanitized this email. I'm not trying to make him the issue and he isn't. If anything I thank him for being straight up and would be happy to have him make me sails. I've removed the name of the sail and added BLANK MAIN in it's place.

"Secondly, what do you have listed for the stock sail? 168sq' as listed by Hobie.

The Hobie 17 BLANK MAIN is 158sq' (15m2). I also have my version of the stock sail, same size, same battens and it measures in, by way of computer design, at 145sq' (13.8m2).

I found every one of their area measurements to be inaccurate. Did they want the true numbers? NO.

Most of their sails were designed by hand on the loft floor. It wasn't until the H20 that they were developed in a sail design program. They derived all of their sail areas by a 'funky' measurement system.

The BLANK MAIN is 8% larger than the stock sail, but in Hobie's world it is 6% smaller."

I called the sailor out on this point. He's never come back. Now He knew but Hobie opened the door for this kind of crap by not stating the Sq ft properly.

I see SCHRS as the way to go and would like to try it.

Posted By: Jake

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/09/16 12:45 PM

In all honesty, there are several ways to measure a sail. There are very simple methods and exceptionally complex methods. A computer, that is giving you the exact computed sail cloth area, will deviate significantly from any simplified point to point manual measurement system. You can only get a precise manual sail measurement if you use a lot of calculus and intend to spend a few days on it. Manual sail measurement systems make an approximation of the sail area and good sail makers not only understand exactly what measurement system is specified by a particular class but how to wiggle in a little extra sail area and still measure in.

You need to know the sail area and the method used to measure it before you can really compare sails. For instance; the F18 class used to have their own sail measurement method before they became an ISAF class and had to adopt the ISAF measurement system (which was a little more complex and time consuming). Just laying sails on top of each other will not give you a very good picture of how they "measure in".

But, again, we're seriously splitting and resplitting hairs here.

How does SCHRS handle non-factory sails?
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/09/16 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
From what I understand, on a upwind/downwind course a bi-radial main and a tri radial jib will have an advantage over cross cut sail.





Yeah, but man, talk about splitting hairs. You guys are talking about the last remaining 1% of performance on sailors who typically aren't within a 20% max performance window. Handicap racing simply isn't serious enough to sweat such fine immeasurable details. There are conditions and situations where the dacron sail will outperform the mylar. If you really want your racing to be that close and precise, you have to go one design. If racing handicap, just get a number that's close and get on the water. You'll lose the equivalent of several portsmouth handicap points with one crappy start.


Probally so... but it is moot anyway... like stated earlier with the exception of a few die in the wool Hobie sailors that are still "class" racing; just about every older boat with new sails I am seeing these days has gone to a squaretop...

Regarging setting a rating... the policy I have adopted is you tell us what you think you are and we're good with it... should someone in the race complain, then we're gonna take a look... I have found the saling as a whole is group are pretty straight forawrd honest people.





F18, F16, A-cat...but I digress. Carry on.


In a perfect world yes.... but not all are willing to spend that kind of money.
Posted By: cyberspeed

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/09/16 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
How does SCHRS handle non-factory sails?

http://schrs.com/measurements.php
Posted By: brucat

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/09/16 03:55 PM

It's all a balance. SCHRS will address newer designs (those without adequate race results to calculate a meaningful DPN number), but requires measuring, which either means advance planning by the sailors (get your cert before the season/regatta), or the OA needs to have measurers and time factored into the event schedule.

If using a "stock" number, both systems rely upon the boats using the exact setup used to develop the "stock" number. The problem with using a SCHRS number generated in Europe is that the sail plan, boards, etc. may have been different on the boat used to calculate the number (than is sold/sailed in the US).

The challenge of either system is garbage-in, garbage-out when it comes to SMOD sails. We're at the mercy of what the manufacturers are willing to give us for data.

Mike
Posted By: bacho

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/09/16 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by catman


I called the sailor out on this point. He's never come back. Now He knew but Hobie opened the door for this kind of crap by not stating the Sq ft properly.




Way to go!
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/09/16 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by catman


I called the sailor out on this point. He's never come back. Now He knew but Hobie opened the door for this kind of crap by not stating the Sq ft properly.




Way to go!


I think with the Hobie 21, Tiger, and the Wildcat for Formula 18 racing... Hobie is pretty dictatorial on their sails for class racing... that is they come from the factory or a licensed sail maker... anything outside of that is not class legal hence the MN hit..

As for the sailor not coming back.... how is that a good thing?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/09/16 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
As for the sailor not coming back.... how is that a good thing?


Not trying to answer for Catman but in my mind ...
quality vs quantity
I would rather sail (and socialize with a small group of honorable people vs a large crowd of jerks / liars / thieves
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/09/16 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by MN3
Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
As for the sailor not coming back.... how is that a good thing?


Not trying to answer for Catman but in my mind ...
quality vs quantity
I would rather sail (and socialize with a small group of honorable people vs a large crowd of jerks / liars / thieves


Point taken... but you can lie with dogs and not get fleas...

In some cases it may be just a misunderstanding or not knowing the rules. Calling them on it and chasing them away seems a bit harsh when many of us are trying to re-build fleets and generate new sailors..

I have known some cheaters over the years... they're going to do it regardless... funny no matter how much they did it, they never won..




Posted By: catman

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/09/16 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Originally Posted by bacho
Originally Posted by catman


I called the sailor out on this point. He's never come back. Now He knew but Hobie opened the door for this kind of crap by not stating the Sq ft properly.




Way to go!


I think with the Hobie 21, Tiger, and the Wildcat for Formula 18 racing... Hobie is pretty dictatorial on their sails for class racing... that is they come from the factory or a licensed sail maker... anything outside of that is not class legal hence the MN hit..

As for the sailor not coming back.... how is that a good thing?


He claimed the MN hit, he should have taken the ML. More than 5% is ML.

There's so much more to the story of this guy and It wasn't my intention to make it about him. However, when you knowingly cheat to steal someone else's glory I don't want anything to do with you and I will do whatever I can to stop it.


Posted By: catman

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/09/16 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Jake
In all honesty, there are several ways to measure a sail. There are very simple methods and exceptionally complex methods. A computer, that is giving you the exact computed sail cloth area, will deviate significantly from any simplified point to point manual measurement system. You can only get a precise manual sail measurement if you use a lot of calculus and intend to spend a few days on it. Manual sail measurement systems make an approximation of the sail area and good sail makers not only understand exactly what measurement system is specified by a particular class but how to wiggle in a little extra sail area and still measure in.

You need to know the sail area and the method used to measure it before you can really compare sails. For instance; the F18 class used to have their own sail measurement method before they became an ISAF class and had to adopt the ISAF measurement system (which was a little more complex and time consuming). Just laying sails on top of each other will not give you a very good picture of how they "measure in".

But, again, we're seriously splitting and resplitting hairs here.

How does SCHRS handle non-factory sails?


I understand what your saying. It's just hard to believe almost 30sqft difference in a sail that size.
Posted By: bacho

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/10/16 02:43 AM

My sail software can spit out very different numbers than the notes from the ISAF measurer notes. Seems like further digging was needed to get to the bottom of the situation. I can bet the guy would give the sailmaker more credit than you.
Posted By: Isotope235

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/10/16 01:08 PM

It doesn't really matter what the sailmaker's software says. The real question is what does the sail measure. The class rules need to state the procedure for measurement, and what the legal values are. If they don't, then the class rules are lacking.

For example, I sail in one class where the luff, leech, and foot of the sails are measured under a specified load. There are minimum and maximum allowable lengths, and maximum chord depths at the midpoints. As long as those values are met, the sail is legal - regardless of the actual area.

As others have noted, sails are pretty much always measured flat despite the fact that modern designs are 3-d. The area we measure will be different than the modeled surface area.

Also, when the bolt-rope (if any) is sewn in, it will be made short in order to allow for stretch. If the sail is measured without proper tension on the bolt-rope, the area will come out significantly smaller. As a sailmaker and Isotope class measurer, it took some time to work out assembly and measurement procedures such that the numbers before and after attaching the bolt-rope matched.

Also, realize that sail measurement is not an exact science. Measure the same sail twice and you'll wind up with small variations in each value. I figure that my margin of error is at least +/- 0.5%, so if the sails measure within 1 sqft of target (total), I call them legal.
Posted By: bacho

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/10/16 01:22 PM

Sure, it doesn't matter what the computer says. But if that's the basis for the sailmaker thinking he is right (comparing stock to square top differences) the issue needs to be looked at and the sails measured.
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/10/16 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Isotope235
The class rules need to state the procedure for measurement, and what the legal values are. If they don't, then the class rules are lacking.


Most of the class rules I have read refer this back to the ISAF Measurement Instructions.

As for providing the measurements.... I think Prindle did this with the exception of the 18-2, and allowed for any sail maker to make sails... Like Hobie and NACRA; Prindle didn't provide the measurements 18-2 as again "legal" class sails were from them or a licenses/authorized sail maker..

Posted By: dave mosley

Re: Nacra Class Rules - 06/15/16 07:34 PM

Man jake I forgot about that 5.2! Diamond Dave has my old 5.2 and has spent a few years rehabbing it but is now on tour in Afghanistan for one year. he wants me to complete the rehab and sail the boat, or more or less get the boat sailing for his new bride.
It has a new Sq top, new jib(standard size) and spin. I think Whirlwind made them, hopefully I can check it out this summer and get it back on the water.
Those were good days on the 5.2, seems like forever ago, I guess it was 1990-94 for me. Boat is a 1976 model.
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