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Lots of F18s' For Sale

Posted By: Ventucky Red

Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/07/17 03:10 PM

Seeing a lot F18 class boats for sale... is this a dying fleet or is it time for many to upgrade to newer boats...?



Posted By: bacho

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/08/17 10:15 PM

About as dead as this website
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/08/17 11:01 PM

I think all of sailing seems to have taken a massive hit the last few years. More so than the previous massive hits.
Posted By: garda

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/09/17 02:36 AM

Oh come on Karl, we were promised that when the AC went to cats, everyone would turn to multis and the whole sport would boom. Surely Russell, Melvin and all the Kool-Aid vendors were telling us the truth!
Posted By: brucat

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/09/17 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ventucky Red
Seeing a lot F18 class boats for sale... is this a dying fleet or is it time for many to upgrade to newer boats...?


Where are the numbers headed (weekend regattas, nationals)? That would be your best guide.

Mike
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/09/17 04:29 PM

Considering the number of boats, there really aren't that many for sale. Maybe 4-6 boats? Off the top of my head there are probably 80-90 active racing boats in the U.S. more if you count the guys that show up to one regatta a year.
The only boats for sale are used C2s and there seems to be little demand for them as the same guys have been trying to sell them for years... I can't find any used Nacra Infusions MKIIs and every one that has come for sale has sold quickly.
In the last year I've sold around 10 new Nacra Infusions. Considering the small market that's pretty good! The used ones have gone to people that are going to race them and they've gone for 15K+. I've got people begging me to find good used ones in the 13-16K ballpark. But used C2's for 10-12K aren't moving, I can tell you that Nacra has more recognition among recreational sailors, but I don't know why racing sailors are more dedicated to the Infusion than the C2. They are both competitive boats.
In California, Michigan, and Wisconsin the class is doing great.
The Northeast (which was the biggest fleet) has just as many boats as ever, we're just having a harder time getting them to regattas so we are building a central sailing venue in Newport, RI where about 12 teams have said they will keep their boats in the area to do weeknight racing.
This model can be proven in other areas where the class is doing well too, it's just much easier to roll down and go sailing and go home without having to trailer/rig/sail/de-rig/trailer.
I don't think Nationals are a great indication of how the class is doing. The class is made up of weekend warriors, asking them to travel cross country, take vacation time and serious racing is becoming harder and harder. Sure we took a dip the last few years in Nationals, but the fleets that are growing are not near where our Nationals venues have been.
Next year we are going to SoCal for Nationals, largely because the class is growing there. I am confident we will have 40-50 boats for this.
The next year we have F18 Worlds in Sarasota... I am confident we will have 100 boats for this. Like Long Beach in 2012 where we had 120!
The following year the Nationals will be in Michigan which collectively between CRAM and CRAW there are over 30 boats.
Australia is seeing it's biggest F18 Nationals ever this year.
2015 Worlds had 170 boats.
2016 Worlds in Argentina just didn't work out with getting boats there.
Overall the class is doing great. Anyone who says differently is clearly out of touch.
You can look at the interest in foiling boats, and the F18 class has talked about that. But I can tell you at this time foiling is not for the majority amateur sailing crowd. I have little to no interest in racing a highly competitive foiling catamaran and I've done my share of foiling and racing it in long distance.

Bach, I've heard you say the class is dead on numerous forums... you've been to maybe one nationals years ago? But I'm not even sure if you've been to one. And besides that have you sailed any F18 regattas? It's a shame that the Mid-Atlantic and Carolinas doesn't have an active class, but like all sailboats classes, there are going to be areas that we don't have racing. Of active sailors, I know there are 4 in NJ, 3 in Maryland, 1 in the Outerbanks, 1 in Virginia and a handful of others scattered about that I don't know about. If someone put together a really appealing regatta down there I'm sure we could get a decent fleet. I think you have a great spirit and following, rather than being negative about it, why don't you capitalize on the potential? I know the A Class has some scattered sailors through your region, but besides that not much else is successful either. Maybe getting all the boats together for more regional portsmouth regattas will pull boats out of the woodwork and the fleets people are interested in will survive.

-Todd Riccardi
USF18 President
Nacra North America
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/09/17 05:26 PM

If someone is looking for a Mk. 2 Infusion, mine may be available. Not getting out of the class, just flipping boats in prep for 2018 worlds, though this platform is 100% capable of winning a worlds.

On the race front, what Todd is saying is very true, its a lot of effort to travel sail with these boats! Worth it to attend a few regattas in the Northeast though, one of the most competitive fleets around.

I'm putting together the 3rd annual John McLaughlin Memorial Regatta, June 24th and 25th. This race will be run from West River Sailing Club to Cove Point Beach, 35 miles south, overnight stop and return the next day. Ground crew will be available to assist with moving beach wheels. LeMans start on the beach the next day, but we'll do it in the water to keep the bottoms shiny smile My boat will likely be available for a low cost charter (cover insurance) for the event.
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/09/17 11:21 PM

To the original question, I think the class is doing well overall, but it seems there is some significant regional variation.

Here in Michigan, I recently compiled our CRAM numbers for the last 5 years and we are seeing a positive trend in regatta attendance for F18s. We support multiple classes, and the biggest growth over the last 5 years has definitely been our H16 class. It's not the hard-core class legal racing guys, but a bunch of fun people that are getting their feet wet and having a blast. This fall, two of those upgraded to Tigers and will be racing with the F18 fleet next year. If we get the foundation right, the rest will take care of itself...

I'm also a member at CSYC on Lake St. Clair and we are up to 8 F18s (up from 3 four years ago). 4 of those boats are new to the class within the last 3 years. They are set up and ready to sail for the Wed night and Sunday AM summer series. We've worked hard to increase the confidence and skill level of the new guys and held several small 1-day and 2-day sessions where the new guys skipper and the more experience guys crew. We also brought Robbie and Jill up last July to help a 1/2 dozen boats improve their game.

All said, I think we now have 19 F18's that are raced on a semi-regular basis in Michigan. Definitely a high-water mark for us.

I've also been disappointed with participation in the winter regattas in Florida. Last year I made a big financial commitment to sail Tradewinds and Charlotte Harbor. We got hit with a double-whammy of bad conditions and small numbers at Tradewinds, and only 3 boats bothered to show up to Charlotte Harbor. Two were from more than 1000 miles away. That was a real disappointment and I really hope it was a temporary aberration. Work prevented participation in next week's BiB regatta in Tampa, but I'll be there for the CHR again in early February.

Anyway, I'm bullish on the F18 and sailing in general. I love my C2 and have zero desire to trade it in at this point.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/10/17 06:11 PM

Great news Jeff! I agree the turnout in Florida has been a bit weak on the F18 front, I suspect next year will be better with the upcoming Worlds-if the 505 fleet is anything to take ques from, the year leading up to worlds has high turnout.

Do you have any tips for hooking new sailors to the class and keeping them engaged? I've heard comments that "the F18 class is too competitive", which refers a bit to the East Coast fleet, but I think is a bit of a misnomer as even the very best sailors in the class are extremely helpful and friendly!
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/10/17 08:36 PM

Jeff this is great news, and I just got the list from SoCal that there are also 19 boats there. And there's another 15-20 in the Bay Area.

Sorry if I sounded harsh in my original response. I take it a little personally when people throw the class to the curb. We're making efforts to do more marketing, but it's time consuming and expensive. The current officers don't have a lot of time, we don't have volunteers stepping up to do things, and we don't have a ton of money to pour into marketing. Though we do sponsor the nationals each year with a generous donation and we plan to spend some more money on marketing, but it's hard to know what to spend it on when people are so hit or miss via social media and emails.
The best thing class members can do is:
1)be the drummer of their local fleet, this has worked everywhere we have someone actively doing it. Keeping it organized, keeping track of members, keeping in contact with members, and etc.
2)Sending USF18 content for marketing on our website... we have to beg for regatta dates and regatta write ups... we don't have time to do that
We have area reps who are supposed to do both of the above. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it takes a lot to chase them down and keep material coming. If everyone could contribute it would be much more apparent that the class is doing pretty well.



Posted By: samc99us

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/10/17 09:36 PM

One thing I've noticed in the marketing department is the F18's have taken a back seat to the foiling boats - A's, Moths, Nacra 17 Mk. 2 etc. in the major sailing publications I follow online. Some of the larger events still get some exposure, like Catacup and Worlds and occasionally Nationals, but I think more air time in front of more sailors would help. We may not be as cool as the latest foiling trend but we are still the largest doublehanded racing fleet capable of 20+ kts in the U.S and abroad, and at a relative fraction of the cost of many other boats, with platforms that last!
Posted By: mbounds

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/11/17 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by samc99us
We may not be as cool as the latest foiling trend but we are still the largest doublehanded racing fleet capable of 20+ kts in the U.S and abroad, and at a relative fraction of the cost of many other boats, with platforms that last!


Sorry, but there's another class that claims that spot. Way bigger than the F18s.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: wildtsail7

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/11/17 05:22 AM

Remind me not to hire Matt Bounds as PRO for 2019 America's in Michigan!!!
You do have a point, I'm sure Sam is going to insert "one of".

I wish our platforms were as versatile as Hobie 16s... but different boats for different purposes.
It'd also be killer to have decent sized F18B/C fleet. Maybe in another 20 years when we match the age of the 16 class this will be the case, who knows what we'll be sailing then?! I'm guessing plenty of people will still be sailing Hobie 16s, thats amazing.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/11/17 12:58 PM

I would insert "one of", but the Hobie 16 is only capable of those speeds on a reach, and only in certain conditions. The F18 is a 25-28kt boat that regularly does in the low 20's across 90+ degrees of TWA. Its not the same, but you know that already Matt!

We've joked about selling all our spin boats and racing Hobie 16's, then realize how foolish that would be in the light air slug fest that is Chesapeake sailing when the lone TheMightyHobie18 joins us and is lucky to finish before dark. The other reality is, while not super competitive at the pointy end of the fleet, you can sail the F18 at over 400 lbs and still be pretty quick. Anything over what, 300lbs? is a no go on the H16?
Posted By: brucat

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/11/17 02:13 PM

You guys will never go that fast, because you're afraid of sailing in anything over 15 knots, lol...

Mike
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/11/17 03:32 PM

I've sailed my boat plenty in upwards of 30 knots. There are plenty of races in Texas and Florida sailed in a lot more than 15 kts of breeze. Try 25 kts of TWS for 3 days in a row blast reaching up the coast in the Florida 300 (half the fleet is F18's). So I have no idea where that statement is coming from Mike, perhaps its a half truth perpetuated on to become a full truth? Or perhaps you're thinking of another boat that isn't quite 18' long with a carbon mast?
Posted By: brucat

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/11/17 05:50 PM

Many, many years of RC experience. That may have been exaggerated by a few knots, but it's not that far off. And, I was trying to be funny (note the "lol").

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/11/17 06:59 PM

before you knock another multi class, I guess it's good to indicate your criteria... Biggest class (numbers)? Highest-tech? Lowest-cost?

Posted By: samc99us

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/11/17 07:52 PM

Jay, not knocking the H16 at all. Its a different boat than the F18 being discussed here, that was my point. My other point is you are going to have a tough time finding a faster boat than the F18 in the double handed category and getting more than 10 on a starting line at a Nationals here in the U.S. All the hype of the foiling boats is great, but for the average weekend warrior, an F18 is plenty!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/12/17 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by wildtsail7

The only boats for sale are used C2s and there seems to be little demand for them as the same guys have been trying to sell them for years... I can't find any used Nacra Infusions MKIIs and every one that has come for sale has sold quickly.



YCMTSU.
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/12/17 03:05 AM

Bump
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/12/17 11:18 AM

F18's have really taken off in SA doubled the fleet size in a year
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/12/17 01:24 PM

Any thoughts on why? Probably a pretty perfect boat for venues with breeze...
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/12/17 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by brucat
Many, many years of RC experience. That may have been exaggerated by a few knots, but it's not that far off. And, I was trying to be funny (note the "lol").

Mike


Fail, try harder.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/12/17 02:38 PM

I'm selling my boat for a similar reason as Sam, getting ready for Worlds 2018. I'm partnering with another skipper and I will be co-owner. Any offer will be heard for my boat.

A lot of F18's on the market isn't a bad thing, a buyers market is good for the class. The sky isn't falling and the class remains strong, I expect a build up to Worlds 2018 then a dip after. Yes we can do better with our PR and the executive committee is creating a marketing plan with a budget that is sustainable.

Yes the Hobie 16 is STILL the king of one-design multihull racing. If you poo poo the class then shame on you! If you poo poo the F18 fleet... get in the queue with the other haters, I'm looking squarely at you Mike. It's a point of pride for me when someone says the F18 is the Hobie 16 of the spin fleet. Any class should covet the success of the Hobie 16 fleet.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/12/17 04:38 PM

While not a member of the F18 class, I think it's great that folks like Ding and Sam are turning over boats so that others may enter the fleet without having to cough up dough for a new platform.

Obviously the build quality on most boats these days allows for a long life, and the class rules do their best to keep the playing field somewhat level (this is not a true development class if I recall).

So a buyer's market in my opinion would indeed be an asset for class growth.

And I don't think anyone would argue that the H16 is the be-all/end-all of multihull sailing, but you can't argue with the fleet size if that's how you're judging the success of a class..
Posted By: brucat

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/12/17 05:37 PM

Get your facts straight, Ding. I'm not a hater of F18s at all, or any other cat class for that matter.

It was a joke, based in part on feedback and direct observation at regattas. I will accept that you didn't find it humorous, but that doesn't change my intent.

Also, as is well-known, I don't like to sail in over 20 knots anymore, either. Except on a Wave.

Mike
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/12/17 05:48 PM

Mike, if you haven't noticed over the years, Dave's online persona is one of constant butthurt. Still one of my favorite people to catch up with in person when the opportunity arises though.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/13/17 02:46 PM

I can't read your (Karl the 2nd) or Ding's posts at work anymore. I laugh too loud and the boss probably thinks I'm watching porn or something...
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/14/17 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I can't read your (Karl the 2nd) or Ding's posts at work anymore. I laugh too loud and the boss probably thinks I'm watching porn or something...
Posted By: JeffS

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/15/17 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I can't read your (Karl the 2nd) or Ding's posts at work anymore. I laugh too loud and the boss probably thinks I'm watching porn or something...
Posted By: rehmbo

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/17/17 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by samc99us
...Do you have any tips for hooking new sailors to the class and keeping them engaged? I've heard comments that "the F18 class is too competitive", which refers a bit to the East Coast fleet, but I think is a bit of a misnomer as even the very best sailors in the class are extremely helpful and friendly!


Well, I don't know of any magic formulas, but at CRAM we are trying to build an awareness that the B-Fleet is the future of the A-Fleet. B-fleet should be the foundation, not the other way around.

Our individual fleets aren't big enough to justify A and B, so all the miscellaneous fleets (including Portsmouth, H16, etc.) serve the feeder role. We do our best to cater to them, make them feel completely welcome, and most importantly, be sure they have a blast. Once they've been there a year or two, we ask them to get involved and take some ownership of their future. Small stuff at first of course...

At CSYC, a few years ago one of the forward thinking members purchased an inexpensive Tiger and donated it to the club to be sailed as a club boat. That boat helped bring me from a reckless TheMightyHobie18 hack to a marginally competent F18 sailor (a leap that's bigger than it sounds). I've since purchased my C2 and am continuing my journey in the F18 fleet. Now a few others including our youth sailors are enjoying the Tiger. Unfortunately there's still a big jump from the 420's and Wave to the Tiger they sail normally, so that's another challenge to solve in the future.

Also, as mentioned before, we try to schedule outings where the newer guys/gals get to spend time skippering for the more experienced guys and get them up the learning curve more quickly. Building confidence seems to be really beneficial.

Finally, we've been lucky to have a few really enthusiastic cheerleader types that seem to keep the ball rolling no matter what. They probably have as much to do with the fun and growth as anything. smile
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/17/17 02:33 PM

Jeff,

All great strategies for success. There is quite a leap from the 420/Laser world to the high performance world, one that is made considerably easier by pairing an experienced sailor with a newbie. We do a fair bit of that locally and it seems to help, though in gnarly conditions it can still go pear shaped quickly with the new guy on the tiller!

All comes down to time on the water...
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/17/17 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
I've heard comments that "the F18 class is too competitive", which refers a bit to the East Coast fleet, but I think is a bit of a misnomer as even the very best sailors in the class are extremely helpful and friendly!


I'd be curious as to why someone feels a class is "too competitive". Did they figure they'd jump right in and start winning regattas? That's a bit of a stretch unless you're world-class already.

No, sorry, everyone does not think you are special, and not everyone gets a trophy. Life just isn't fair sometimes I guess.

Perhaps those "too competitive" folks aren't the type to engage in any sort of conversation with those at the pointy end of the fleet. Or, only speak to them when they're obscenely busy or pre-occupied with stuff like practice, boat prep, etc..

While it is nice that the fast part of the fleet actively engage the noobs and slower folk, it's not a requirement... I've never been ignored when I had a question, and never refused to help those (very few) folks with less ability.

Why do I show up? Supporting the class. Getting boats on the line. Getting new people on the water (crew).

My expectations are modest: I don't train regularly, I don't drop truckloads of money into the boat, and I don't race every weekend. So I shouldn't expect to win over those that do.

I keep it civil (nay, fun) on the boat for the crew and participate in cruising / day-sail events as well for those who might not want to jump right in to racing (lack of experience, etc). Once they see sailing isn't rocket science, maybe they'll eventually buy the boat from me smile
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/17/17 07:15 PM

I think that perception is related to the "dropping truckloads of money into the boat and racing every weekend" statement. The 1st-3rd place team at this years Nationals won on platforms that were several years old, 2nd place team sailing on a set of upwind sails of the same vintage. Yeah, most boats in the top 10 are going to be less than 4 years old and running new sails at a major event like Nationals, but the same can be said in most other classes of sailboat racing
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/17/17 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by samc99us
I've heard comments that "the F18 class is too competitive", which refers a bit to the East Coast fleet, but I think is a bit of a misnomer as even the very best sailors in the class are extremely helpful and friendly!


The "the F18 class is too competitive" thing could come from the fleets enforcement of the rules on and off the water, some are put off by it and some embrace it. Having been the a$$hole on the beach that harasses it's membership about membership dues and and boat certs for the last 9 years I can tell you for a fact nobody thinks you're getting it right. There are always complaints about being to nit picky and too lax and sometimes it's at the same time from the same skipper which is always a pleasurable conversation. My point... not all complaints need to be pursued, and there isn't a single fleet that fits everyone persons wants and needs but we do have diverse group of fleets which I think could satisfy the vast majority of those interested in multihull racing without having to overhaul our fleets.


The most straight forward way to keep people coming back is to constantly reach out to old and new teams, let them know when an event is coming up and create a buzz. Every successful fleet always seems to have at least one or two people that everyone knows and hear from about upcoming regattas. Be one of those people and your fleet will succeed. As with anything you get out of it what you put into it.

Posted By: brucat

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/17/17 08:10 PM

All great points, guys.

Clinics put on by local experts (fastest guys in the local fleet) are also huge. You can't have too many of these. You can dedicate a weekend (one day clinic, second day is fun racing), or break it down into bite-sized pieces, spread over regatta weekends.

The fast guys know they'll only get faster for nationals if they're pushed all season long locally.

Newbies will be eternally grateful.

Mid-packers will enjoy anything that gets them on the water to improve their fine-tuning.

Everybody wins...

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/17/17 09:00 PM

so easy, and yet.....

but h8ters will h8
Posted By: brucat

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/17/17 09:27 PM

...And yet so complex... (Crazy bonus points if you know that reference.)

Ignore the haters, focus on what's working for you. If you can generate buzz, and keep the social aspect fun, you'll win every time.

Fleets that are having fun and taking care of all levels of their sailors don't disappear overnight.

Mike
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/19/17 08:06 PM

Was it Gulfport YC that stipulated that in order to keep your mast-up storage spot (at a screaming deal) you had to get out and sail in one of their regattas (race or cruise) at least 2x per year or something?

I thought that was genious for several reasons:
- moves dead boats
- lawn maintenance around those boats that rarely move
- keeps people (owners, non-owners) somewhat in contact and involved
- creates buzz (razzing the owners who don't sail, etc)
- keeps the club membership from slipping into a social club with no active sailing.
Posted By: garda

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/19/17 09:08 PM

In Australia, particularly places like Sydney where club premises are small and club fees are low, it's common to require sailors to do at least 50% of the weekend races if they want to store their boat at the club. It does seem to provide an incentive.
Posted By: samc99us

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 01/23/17 04:15 PM

We have the same rules in place at our sailing club. The F18's, N20's and A cats abide by this. The F16's are 50/50 (they have more cruisers). Unfortunately, we have a board comprised of ~60% cruisers/socialites and ~40% sailors/racers (used to be probably 80% dinghy sailors/racers), with a big boat cruising sailor as commodore. This is not a knock on them, they are volunteering and doing us a great service, but it also means parking rules are a bit lax. The other catch is we have a few empty spaces, and the club sees that as lost revenue, so we aren't keen to kick existing boats to the curb for not racing.

I certainly think an early spring clinic would be good. Wish I could get some of the NE teams down but it is quite a haul for them and Annapolis has mixed conditions (though usually breeze in early spring and warmer temps than RI!)
Posted By: Jeff Peterson

Re: Lots of F18s' For Sale - 02/11/17 08:30 PM

...to the top.
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