wings - pros and cons?

What are the pros and cons of wings? Certainly there is a comfort issue for recreational sailing. Many more powerful designs don't have them. Do wings become a liability in heavy weather ocean sailing?

My interests are in cruising and distance racing.

Thanks!

I don't know when they'd become a liability in any case except maybe trying to squeeze through crowded dock areas. (I know I've shoved my H17 through a 12' wide dock openning before.)

They are added weight, but not that much. I honestly don't know why more don't have them. I've read that you can order the Fx-one and the fox with wings, but they wont be class legal I don't believe.

when i changed the sail plan on my boat, i added about 45 or 50 square feet of upwind and
about 110 square feet of down wind sail, i thought of adding trapeze. the idea was that my
wife would get out there and i would watch the kid. however, watching the kid would take
away from my pushing the boat so we added wings. now the both of them can get out and sit
on the wing and add righting moment. it also makes single handing a breeze. no worries about
getting my harness hooked up or getting out in waves or any of that stuff. just put your butt
out there and sit.
at the dock, the boat becomes this big platform that you can just lounge over. she is about
20 feet by 25 feet of tramp. it is great.
i do not have class rules to follow, so i can do whatever i want with out worries of keeping
legal.

Wings are a nice added feature for comfort and they do add to the righting moment. However, they do have their disadvantages too. As has been said, they are heavy (my SX wings are ~50 lbs). Also, as soon as you heel to the point where the leeward wing is in the water, you lose a considerable portion of your speed. In chop, the problem is only magnified. Also, depending on the type of wing tramp you have, the wings add area that wind can get under and potentially flip the boat. I've also found that my wings are fairly fragile. I've had them break several times in gentle capsizes (and once when I hit a channel marker, but that's a different story). Anyway, I do like the wings on my boat, but I don't know that I would add wings to a boat that didn't already have them.

On the flip side, my wings weight enough so that I can pick one up with my pinky finger.

You have to almost be going over the mayberry to get the leward wing in the water in my experience. At which point, it may be a good idea to lose some "performance" :P

both of the 5 foot by 6 foot wings, with tramps and hardware, weigh about 40 lbs. i built
them from 2 inch o/d. glass tube and just joined them in the corners. i agree that there is a
bit of drag to them, but to me they are worth it.

If you are not racing I think the wings on the H 18 are great.
I call it the flying chase lounge (can easily carry three people).
If the wind dies your crew can lie down on the leeward wing and take a nap. This also helps with weight in light air, not to mention the wild thing when the wind comes up.

In Ireland we call them, Hobie "Patio Furniture"

Why the sarcasm towards wings?

Have you ever trapped out on them? Its a thrill.

Ok, I'm a bit defensive as a H17 owner, but seriously, its a blast trapping out on those things.

Having sailed Hobie 14, 16, 18 and now 17's I feel the 17 with wings is the best for all conditions. We can sail in weather when the other Cats head for the beach. As an example, the following is a picture of my son Tom at the 1990 Nationals in the Gorge. It blew 35 to 40 mph each day.
Caleb Tarleton

When I went looking for a faster, newer boat to replace my G-Cat, my wife and I ran across a Mystere 6.0 with wings.
My wife battles back fatigue, and when she saw the wings, she said, "Buy that boat!"...I did. What a difference! Wings rock! We can generate significant force when flying the hull and still be comfortable. When racing my crew is thrilled when it blows enough to trap from the wing edge. He's truly flying. If you ain't tried it, don't knock it.
John

Hey Caleb, your son's sailin' my H17 twin!! Anyway, agree completely with the other "wing-masters" in this string. No better place to race in a blow than out on them wings. In high winds it makes for some really fast action and some wild tacks and mark roundings. Next best thing is racing amongst a bunch of H17s in the same conditions, they rock....:).T

For the racing we do on the Chesapeake I've taken them off my 18. They were about 40-50lbs of weight (boat's already damn heavy and so am I), extra windage going upwind, and it really doesn't take much to stick the leeward one in the water with a bit of heel and chop. And counter-intuitively, slowing like that in blow makes things worse, not better! Trapping from the hull gives better leverage than hiking (not trapping) on the wing, and although trapping from the wing is cool and is way more leverage we rarely see conditions that make it useful. That having been said they're the best thing for cruising, and even though I've taken them off I still keep them for that purpose. Now that I have a spin I think about putting them back on, but as of yet I haven't seen a need.

I understand Performance catamarans did some speed testing with the 5.5 and concluded that all things considered the boat was faster without wings. That may be a concern for the distance racing you mentioned. That being said however count me among the wing fans. They will make your boat both safer and far more comfortable.

Had formula wings on my Hobie 18. They are great for rec sailing especially with kids. They absolutely suck for racing in any waves. The leward supports dig in on every wave and if you accidently get up too high, the wing itself will dig in and spin you to leward (powering up). If you go over, plan on a long swim as they resist righting the boat like a big 5 foot skeg keel. If you get them, make sure you can easily remove them while racing distance. I do think they are worth the effort and money for fun rec sailing.

I haven't had the wing supports dig into the waves. The only time that it does happen, is when the whole hull goes under the water.

Also when it does dig in the water, I don't experience the spinning that you speak of.

Maugan,

You haven't experienced those things for a couple of reasons. Mainly, your H17 wings are much smaller than the TheMightyHobie18 formula or SX wings and mount differently. They do not stick out as far from the hull, nor do they have the profile of the TheMightyHobie18 wings. Further, the considerably smaller area of the seats, means that you are less likely to feel them spinning the boat off the wind. As for putting the whole hull under water, that's not at all uncommon, especially in any sort of chop. Without wings, the boat can more easily slice through. When the wing supports go under, you can really feel the boat slow down.

Righting the boat with wings is also more difficult than without. I've had a Hobie 18 w/o wings and it was far easier to right than my SX. Also, on the NC coast, and in other areas with strong tidal currents, the wings act just like sea anchors when you're flipped over. So beware if the tide is going out.

Sorry, didn't mean to be sarcastic.
There are no Hobie 17s in Ireland, so I cannot comment. There were a few Hobie 18s about 10 years ago and one was fitted with wings. They were a nuisance in the dinghy park and slower than the standard Hobie 18 on the water. They seemed dangerous, sometimes catching in the short chop we often race in. The Irish have a nickname for everything, so they were immediatly christened "Patio Furniture".
We mainly race Formula 18s, Hurricane 5.9s, Dart 18s & 16s and now Spitfires. Some of the F18s are Hobie Tigers.
Dermot.

From my experience on my H 18, if you throw your righting line over the wing, the added leverage more than compensates for the wing in the water (I’m a good 210lbs.). May have trouble if you are any lighter or don’t have crew.

But anything over 20 with waves you will dig the wing, just be ready.

With winter coming we could use the analogue, its like preparing for the next mogul, bent your knees.

Skipper and crew need to work together, its not like you are going to pitchpole. Well maybe it is, if you don’t get it (the wing you are standing on) down. Down is good in this case
Jon.

It was my impression that the reason that the wings are there in the first place is so that the boat DOESN'T heel over enough for them to dig in.

Been Sailing my H-17 for 15 years in all conditions. On the H-17, the wings rarely stuff into waves. We are launching off the tops going to weather. Also, righting is not a problem, just be patient, it will come over. Caleb

Wings are great for recreational sailing, cruising, family boat, etc.

But I just have to say something about wings vis-a-vis racing. Most of the popular beachcats require getting crew weight forward for best performance in the kinds of relatively light-air conditons experienced in most parts of the country. Wings add weight aft of the mast, which is only beneficial in heavy air and make it pretty impossible to get enough crew weight forward to keep the sterns from dragging in most light or moderate wind conditions.

In addition, the way in which the wings are attached to the boat make it very difficult for the crew to get forward on the bow of the boat -- knee-knocker, shin-cracker -- to counteract the weight. And when the crew is required to keep moving forward and aft on the boat to keep the boat balanced properly, you can forget it if there are wings attached.

For our seminars, if someone is coming with a two-person boat that has wings, we usually recommend that they take them off for the seminar, because otherwise they are not going to be able to learn the basics of proper weight distribution. And leaving them on would be cruel and unusual punishment for the crew.

All the wings that I have seen come right up, if not further, than the front crossbar.

Can you trap out on non-winged boats fore of the crossbeam?

You can trap out as far forward as your trapeze wire will allow you to go. But you need something to hold onto to keep you from flying backward.

My crew frequently traps forward of the front crossbeam on my 6.0na because it has soooo much volume in the bows. Rarely do (did) they trap so far forward on my 5.2 but they sometimes stradled the front beam.

Jon, your line over the wing will not make a difference in the righting of the boat until the upper wing clears the vertical plane of the upper hull... mast about 45 degrees to water or until the righting line doesn't touch the hull. Probably could use a diagram... here is one that is close to the same reason...

http://home.columbus.rr.com/teamteets/catright.html

The text at the bottom describes the line placement.

Who knew, thanks for the detailed explanation. All I knew was the boat came over with no problem related to the wings. Thanks again Mike.

excuse me but even you hot shot racers are recreational sailors. i mean really who gets paid for bouy bouncing? back to the wing thing- wings are the best thing since they invented crew!

As a recreational sailor, I have to agree with others that have shown a preference for wings. (I sail a H18M, with the shorter wings.) My wife and 7 year old love them. The wings really came in handy while crossing Tahoe last year when the wind kicked in hard and there was 3 foot chop. As a racer, my experience has been thus: 1- In really really light air, thank goodness I've had them - great paddling platforms, 2- in moderate air the wings are 40 lbs extra and don't add to performance, 3- in really good winds (20+), the extra leverage really allows you to push the boat hard by keeping it flat and ultimately results in less depowering while heading upwind, and more rear leverage when flying downwind.
In the end, check the conditions you sail in and contrast that with the type of sailing you do. Hell, you can always take those loungers off in 15 minutes.
Best Regards-

tell that to the solo sailor

Mary,
I must disagree with your generalization regarding wings and racing. Yes, in light air, they are a disadvantage, but in stronger wind...12 and above...they have proved to help in two ways on our Mystere 6.0: first, my crew can trap on the wing and add much more leverage and second, going up-wind, he uses the wing support for additional leverage up front. Maybe its the hobie wings you were referring to or maybe its my limited experience as opposed to the experts in Key Largo, but we use 'em and love 'em.
John

for me, the weight of the wings are a mixed blessing. I don't know how much the H17 wings weigh, but like I said before I have no problem picking them up with my pinky. However, I'm about as skinny as a beanpole at 6'6" and a shy bit over 170, I can use all the weight I can get honestly. In light air, its easy to take them off too

Boiler70, it sounds like you are agreeing with me rather than disagreeing, because my post referred specifically to the light and shifty wind conditions which are experienced in most parts of the country in the summer. And I am certainly not an expert -- I'm just giving my personal opinion as a crew who has had some very bruising experiences with the wings on Hobies. And it is not the wings themselves that are the problem -- it is those things that attach them to the boat. I am sure the real problem is that I am just not young and agile enough.

Yeah, I was agreeing with you.

Sorry if it sounds like I was not, in an act of defiance, I am refusing to take my medication