Why don't beachcat sailors belong to yacht clubs?

I know that some cat sailors do belong to yacht clubs or sailing clubs. But most do not. I am just curious. It would be interesting to know the reasons, both for and against joining clubs, and the experiences some multihull people may have had with clubs, for better or worse.

Mary,

Here in Point Pleasant NJ, it's a matter of returns for vested dollars and lifestyle.

1:) No Dock Fee's 1,200-2000 Season
2:) No Club fee's 600-1,200 Season
3:) Newbies to the shore (WOOOOOOOOOOHAAAAAAAAAAA) with PWC's and boats speeding in no wake zone.
4:) Style of boating simply not interested in.
5:) No interest in sailing, power is majority here.
6:) One upmanship whether in boat, at club, simply being yourself.


The biggest factor is that club is not a beach lifestyle. How many members have simply tied up boat lit a fire and snuggled with a bottle of wine on the beach.
I will bet none.

Mike

Mary,
Sorry you didn't accompany Rick to Gulfport this weekend for the Taipan Nationals (Great Fun). I had looked forward to meeting you.
It would also have been a great answer to your question!
Gulfport Yacht Club is a small, quiet, laid back sailing club that has a mix of small (under 25') monohulls and beach cats. We race the cats, and anyone else that is game twice a month.
We have no one-upsmanship, no snobbery just fun.
Our dues, including dry-slip for mast up storage for ramp or beach launch is $400.00.
Those who have not tried such clubs don't know what they're missing.
Come up next year....you'll see. Ask Rick.
Thanx
John Maples
Commodore
Gulfport Yacht Club

Mary:

Out west here a large percentage of the folks who sail beach catamaran belong to yacht clubs. Just yesterday I was at a regatta at Cabrillo Beach yacht club and an INTER 20, NACRA 5.2, Tornado and various other multihulls who are all members at CBYC were racing in a really fun pursuit race. King Harbor Yacht Club in Los Angeles has an excellent beach catamaran group composed primarily of NACRAs.

Alamitos Bay Yacht Club has a very good contingent of catamarans with some twenty or so on the property in dry storage and many more triamarans. Hobie Tigers, foxes, NACRAs, and A class make up the dominant number at that club.

The costs to belong to clubs is actually cheap in Los Angeles.

You may NOT STORE YOUR CATAMARAN in your driveway in most Southern California cities nor in your back yard if they are visible from the street and there is no beach storage for 99% of the coastline. Your option therefor is to store your boat in a public mast up storage as they have in Marina del Rey with prices running from $85-125 a month. The mast down storage that is well away from the water is $65-80 a month. when you look at a club like Alamitos Bay Yacht Club in Long Beach the costs are really quite cheap in comparison to public storage:

ABYC Equity Membership : ~$1200
Mast up storage: $60 a month
Monthly dues $15-40 a month depending on your age.

Add to that the advantage of regatta discounts, hot showers, security, a dining room, a member SCYRA club affiliation and you have an unbeatable deal.

Mission Bay Yacht club in San Diego is host to the INTER 20 fleet and there are dozens of boats in mast up storage there.

In retrospect I think a majority of active Southern California beach catamarans sail out of yacht clubs to one degree or another.

Are there still "MULTI PHOBIA" clubs here in So Cal? You bet. But not many of them and you probably wouldn't want to hang out with them anyway.

MM

In our area, the yacht clubs are expensive and exclusive. Even the Eastport Yacht Club, which is probably the most down to Earth and multi-friendly has a waiting list and sponsor requirements. There are probably other options, but in 'Nap-town those are the "scene". It takes money, time, and brown-nosing. I think cat-sailors would rather just go sail. In Galesville, there is the West River Sailing Club, who started out as "Our Own Damn Yacht Club" in defiance of the blue blazers. Now, they are among those who don't care for us joining, with all the usual "too much storage space, blah, blah, blah". Beach cat sailors thrive when they have a venue that is friendly to the beach cat style - a place for mast up storage, push the boat in water, and no dress requirements for the club house if you have one at all.

I suspect this is the same all over. The more exclusive clubs have no need for us, unless the only sailors in the area are multi sailors (ah, Heaven...). So, if we belong to clubs, they are the ones that are more down-to-Earth and value sailing and friendship above all.

Here's a true story - I was recently in San Diego for the first time. Loved it! Being as the LV Cup is under way, I figured I'd go over to the San Diego Yacht Club. Maybe given the Cup history, they had some sort of club tour for those interested in visiting. I was stopped at the gate. I said I was a sailor from the East and interested in seeing one of the important places of sailing. No dice. The only way I could get on premises was if I was a member or a guest of a member. Or, if I was a card-carrying member of the Annapolis Yacht Club they'd let me in. In other words, if I had a membership in another club as expensive as theirs they'd let me in. For fun I asked if being a member of the WRCRA would count - I guess he wasn't impressed by a small multihull racing outfit from Galesville. He seemed pained that I even mentioned it, but that was my point for mentioning it in the first place. Anyway, who needs that crap? Is that anyway to grow interest in the sport? Is that anyway to break down the barriers that people see when they view sailing as the sport of the rich? Of course not, but these clubs don't care and will have no interest in changing until there are no people with big checks lining up. So, beach cat sailors will join the clubs with a more grass-roots emphasis or they'll just go sailing wherever they find a launch spot.
Rant mode off.


Anyhow, Art Stephens told us we should be joining these clubs and taking them over from the inside. I agree to the notion, but I'm not sure it's that easy.

Looks like I was poking around the wrong places! Too bad we don't have much of those kind of possibilities out here...

Hi Mary,

I Totally agree with Mike,
Most yacht club members see us as outcasts, we use the same facilities but pay less.
They are looking down to us because we did not spend US 100.000+ or more,
And a envious about the speed we are making, when they are sitting on deck, they are in mine opinion only looking if the are being recognized by someone with a smaller boat.

Some of them do visit our part of the marina and have a honest interest in our sport.
Much often I invite them for a ride when possible, we show them what fun it is.
Many times they end up buying a cat themselves.

The owner of the marina we are sailing recently bought a old Hoby himself.

Nobody owns the water, it’s all about respect for each other.

I belonged to a "Yacht Club" for about seven years. I left my SC20 on the beach and was charged the same as a slip. When my boat was damaged by someone moving a trailer; I complained to the management and was blown off. When I filed charges with the police; all the non-member "guest boats" left the beach. When there were about 30-40 boats on the beach before the complaint and after there were about SIX; it became clear that the damage was done by some "guest boat" and there was nothing that would be done. So I was out about $2800 for repairs. Not to mention the "guests" playing on my tramp. When I called every sailor with a boat on the beach not one had a "guest boat" there.

When I filled out an entry form to race on the Fourth of July it was lost and when I was informed the entry time had passed??? No racing for a cat in an open to all comers event...

I keep my boats at a marina. They understand they are in business warehousing boats.

thommerrill
F25c 009 Charisma
ARC22 2234 Widowmaker
FMS SC20 57

Keith: I know what you mean about the area yacht clubs up there. Before my family moved down to NC, we were on the waiting list to get into the Tred Avon Yacht Club in Oxford MD. After my Dad's relocation, and subsequent move back to Maryland, they are now back on the waitlist, albeit on the end. We're good friends with some of the members there, so they have let me use the beach to launch the 17 there before, but I always get those "looks" from suspecting members as if I'm infiltrating an enemy compound or something. I've never come into the clubhouse nasty and sandy, nor have I ever been in anyone's way. I guess its just that I've got twice as many hulls as they do

Having been a member of a yacht club here in SE Wisconsin for 6 years, I witnessed first hand the attitudes of the Yacht club bunch...

It was not appreciated when we sailed up to the dock, tied up for an hour and grabbed a beer and a burger at the bar. Nobody complained when it was a 30-foot power boat doing the same thing. Oh yeah, they buy lots 'o gas.

Cats are a focal point of ridicule to many monohull racers, especially with the rockstar crowd. "Dude, why dont you get a real boat!", "Yeah whatever, go play on the beach!" or "You could have bought a j/24 for that kind of cash!". Point is, I have a cat becasue I want a cat, It provides thrills that you just cant get on a monohull.

Snobbery plays a role, too. But hey, you dont join a yacht club if you are broke. You want your wine and cheese served in the aft salon, fine. I prefer ham and cheese on the beach between races.

I got bored with the garbage. Tired of being told cats were a stupid waste of fiberglass and resin. I quit and started my own program with my own boat. I sail with people now who have common interests and an appreciation of the fun that catsailing brings.

The only benefit to a YC that I can see is mast-up storage. As about 1/3 of my sailing is done at 'away events' between 80 and 300 miles distant, I'd have to take down the stick about as often as not anyway.

Fortunately I live in a place where no one hassles me about leaving the boat in the driveway. Hopefully the Californians will stay on their side of the hill and we can keep it that way.

several of the beachcat sailors here on St Croix belong to the yacht club, mainly for the security, but also the convience, we keep our boats on the beach year round...theres a big yard off the beach that we can do any repairs if needed....and the scenery aint bad either...

a few years ago, i pulled into a local club. about a two hoursail from my place. four of us had just sailed three hours upwind through a 25 knot blow. one my main halyard sheaves had broken and the halyard had cut through the top ten inches of mast. we were wet, cold, and tired. we asked to put in on a dock and we were told, no. i explained our situation and told the dock guy that our electric motor would not push the boat. he said that they did not take 'your kind of boat here.' i showed him my reciprocal card and explained to him, again, how bad off we were. i was still told that i could not stay. i asked how he would treat a flag officer from my club. (remember, i am shivering and dripping and basically looking like a bag of krap) he told me that the situation would be different. i asked if there was a flag officer from his club there as the vice commodore of my club (me) would like a place to put his catamaran. that is the only reason i was not welcome. because i was a cat sailor. no blue blazer. no cap.
now, basketcase is not your normal beach cat. i wet sail her off a mooring. she is a modified tomcat 6.2 with fixed wings. all up she is 20' long with a sprit by 26' wide and about 650 lbs, so a spot on the beach is not for me.
wy have sailled out of the aquatic park sailing club for seven or so years. it is a small club of about 100 small keel boats and a wharam and me. these people have welcomed my wife, son and i into there little paradise and treat me as an equal. last year i was voted in as commodore.
guess where we did not send reciprocals to this year.

here's our "parking lot" on St Croix

Man, its just NOT FAIR

So if you weren't a "flag offficer" you could just go drown yourself...what kind of people populate these pompous clubs. Whatever happened to the common law of the sea..."help those in distress"??? I never heard it said "only help flag officers"!!!

thom

http://www.osyc.com

check it out: a real yacht club for dinghies and beachcats. Recip privs with every GYA YC on the Coast.

Sorry about having to delete the graphic that was really wide, but it expanded the width of all posts and made it impossible to read the rest of the posts.
Try again as an attachment.
Thanks
Rick

setting an absolute table width would help that problem

I consider our club to be pretty catamaran friendly.

Here is how we would handle your situation:

• Offer you help if you needed it
• Ask if you intended to leave your boat at the dock for an extended period of time
• If leaving your boat AND you had a good reason to leave your boat, we would move it to an appropriate spot ot of the way
• We would find out when you were coming back and also see if you had proof of membership from your club
• We would also try to comfirm that your club was not just a paper organization

If we let everyone who wants to use our facilities just launch or park their boats at our club, we honestly would not have room for our members. While we try to be hospitable, we are not in the business of giving free service. Our members pay dues to use the facilities. Why should someone who doesn't pay at their own club use our facilities for free?

We DO have a paper yacht club in town. We charge them and their members for using our facilities. The few times we tried to be charitable they overran the place, parking their cars in front of people's boats and generally littering up the place.

So, you see, there are reasons some clubs feel it is necessary to scrutinize attempts to use the property w/o paying. I am not saying that is the case in your circumstance, but it may have had something to do with it.

We also have yacht clubs that try to be exclusive. The idea behind those clubs is that they DON'T want new members. They want to exclude everyone. In most cases, the facilities genuinely belong to the membership and they have no intentions or motivation to share them with anyone except their own private guests. That's life. You got to look at those clubs as if you were beaching your boat in their own private back yard. NO, they don't have to welcome you. YES, they may even call the authorities.

Rudder Club of Jacksonville

The best yacht club that would be useful for me would be one where the boat could be sitting on the sand, mast up and yards from the water.

We used to have our own little club where the County of LA rented us beach space for $240/yr....Topanga South Yacht Club. No dues, no meetings but we had t-shirts! (and 50 cats on the beach at one time). Volleyball, weekly BBQ's....

Unfortunately, the beach eroded away leaving rocks and boulders in the landing zone. Sailors moved away or left the sport. I keep my boat in an RV yard close by now. The plus is that I can trailer to new places.

Wish I could find another spot like that but most of the YC's aren't on the sand!

Sheldon
P-18

Is that where all the cats used to be down by the Getty museum? I was wondering about that set-up.
Here in the BAy Area, there seems to be no place to keep a boat with the mast up except at a few marinas. The best I have found was in Alameda, and that was mast up on a trailer and you have to tow your boat to the launching ramp through an office building's parking lot! Either that, or they seem to be fond of the dreaded hoist around here.
I heard there was interest in getting some boats on the beach in Alameda, but I never heard any more about it.
It seems a shame to have all this wind and water and such a small cat scene!

I joined the local yacht club in order to get mast up storage near the water, and guaranteed access to the water. I felt mast up storage and guaranteed access were necessary to be able to fully enjoy cat sailing. It also didn't hurt that the folks I first met at the yacht club were very friendly. They only got uppity when I tried to park my cat on their property & use their docks without paying dues.

I had an option that was cheaper, but a much longer drive to the launch site. And I had a much more expensive option - buying lakefront property.

For me, the yacht club was an affordable compromise. I didn't need the yacht club to race my catamaran and in fact, at first I couldn't even race my catamaran at my own club, except in an annual distance race, but the mast up storage and lake access gave me the "time on the water" to improve. Once I joined the yacht club, though, I did get involved in various programs, including race management, and for a while we did have a catamaran fleet racing regularly.

Yep, right at the bottom of the hill below the Getty (now called the Getty Villa).
We had some fine times down there. Minimal charge by the County and close to the surf line...a bit too close. One year we lost 15 boats to a storm.
We had BBQ's every Wed all summer, with kids and parents abound. The lifeguard had his own boat there so the tower became our personal storage space.

There are still boats there but the heyday is long gone. I don't know if any of them even go out. Long live the "good ole days" which are now!

Sheldon
P-18

We searched most all of the Annapolis / B'more area for a club that could accommodate a bunch of Tornados a few years back. West River Sailing Club and others were plenty interested in a one design fleet coming to roost, but space issues were clearly a problem as were launch facilities for nearly all Annapolis clubs. Severn Sailing Association and Eastport were interested but there was no way you could get sail a Tcat out of there. Most clubs here just aren't set up for launching cats.

On the other hand, Podickory Point Yacht and Beach Club, north of Annapolis, has great facilities and plenty of space. We train out of there when we are not on the road. PPYC would love to have more cats there, so I don't see what the problem is in Annapolis. I will say that most cat sailors are pretty cheap in my experience and are not willing to pay for yacht clubs. It costs around $115.00 per month to be a PPYC member and keep your boat there. That's a fair chunk of change to fork over in one lump sum. On the other hand, you get a place to store your boat, electricity, fresh water, showers, a pretty damn nice clubhouse, pool, tennis courts, etc. Seems pretty reasonable to me. I really appreciate having showers and fresh water available.

We have found Annapolis / Balmer clubs to be extremely cooperative and cat friendly. A few years ago, when the Baltimore Sailing Center at Rocky Point was operating, one of the baltimore clubs gave us open class starts in their races. They were very friendly and quite impressed with the speed of our boats. Eastport Yacht Club co-organized the 1997 Tornado National Championships with CRAC. Their RC expertise was extremely helpful and professional! Eastport has given us starts in their regattas over the years. And anyone who races in the Annapolis area certainly must know of the welcoming attitude of the Cambridge Yacht Club, who include us every year in their annual summer regatta. Miles River Yacht Club used to give us starts and hosted the area C Alter Cup elims twice if I'm not mistaken. For the last two years, cats have been welcome in the Annapolis to Oxford Race.

I don't think it is fair to say that we are not welcome. I think it is true that we have unique space and launching issues. In Annapolis, most clubs were built without considering such needs. This was reasonable at the time the clubs were built. Projects that I have worked on, such as the Tcat nationals, were well received by local clubs. Seems to me that for the most part, local clubs here ARE interested in promoting sailing.

If cat sailors were really interested, they could have a cat club in Annapolis. PPYC could become a cat oriented club just by having lots of cat people join. It's that simple. And there is a club of sorts in Galesville. There ain't no facilities, but there's a bunch of boats on a piece of property there and that's a start ain't it? Didn't most of the existing clubs start out that way?

-Greg Scace

Greg,
You said one of the problems is that catamarans have unique space and launching issues. I am curious as to what these unique space and launching issues are. At the clubs you are talking about, do they have fleets of dinghy-type monohulls up to 20 foot? Do they drysail? How do they launch their boats? Do they use hoists, or ramps, or both?

Where did the mantra come from that catamarans have to have a beach? Never mind, I know where it came from.

Anyway, when the Shark catamaran fleet started at Mentor Harbor Yacht Club on Lake Erie in 1962, most of the people who got the catamarans were monohull sailors who were members of the club. Our club had a large amount of beach area right on the lake, but it never even occurred to us to sail our cats off a beach. We launched our boats just like the monohull sailors did, using a hoist or a ramp. I think most of the Shark fleet sailors used the hoist rather than the ramp. We had a four-way bridle that just attached to the hook on the hoist, and you just lowered the boat into the water. It was so easy. We were always launching into completely calm, protected water. We put up our sails after we got in the water. And then we just had to sail down a little canal and then out through the channel into the lake.

Most of the major Shark regattas were out of yacht clubs on the East Coast, and at most of them we launched by hoist or ramp. And when Tornados came in, in the late 1960's, I think they were doing the same thing.

Now, obviously, in the case of the Hobie regattas in the 1970's when there were maybe a hundred boats at every regatta, a hoist is not feasible. But when you have a fleet the size of a normal monohull fleet at a regatta, why shouldn't you be able to use the hoist (or ramp) or whatever that club provides for launching monohulls?

As far as the dry storage space issue, this came up with a club that we belonged to once. We had a Hobie 18. We found out that they were charging us 50 percent more for dry storage than they were charging for the Flying Scots -- this was with both types of boats on trailers. So I took a tape measure and measured the square footage of the footprints of the two types of boats on trailers. It was identical. After I presented my evidence, they apologized and reduced our dry storage fee.

Just a couple thoughts from the past.

I guess my point before about Annapolis local clubs was more on the big ones and the scratch it takes to join, different from whether they like us and give us a start. Clubs on the Eastern shore or Baltimore are not exactly local to Annapolis, ok maybe Baltimore... Also, beach cats weren't exactly welcome at the Oxford race this year (not Oxford's fault), but it sounds like that has changed for the better for next year.

PPYC would likely get more cats if they lowered the cost and advertised the availability. I'd keep a boat there, but I really don't care about the pool or tennis courts or paying for them. The cost to put my 18 on the beach would be almost what I pay to keep my 25' mono in a deep water slip, which seems silly. I live around the corner from PPYC but I sail with the "club of sorts" in Galesville. (No pool or tennis, who cares, but we have two Tornados! We also have Joe the Bartender!) With Sandy Point next door to PPYC, trailer friendly boats have an option/choice for Bay access, but it's not a club.

Maybe we are just all cheap!

Howdee:

Re space and launching issues - A tornado is 20 feet by 10 feet. They take up a fair amount of real estate compared to a laser, 470 or other small dinghy, but maybe not too much more than a flying snot. Clubs in Annapolis were really short on space for dry storage. Severn Sailing Association had floating ramps for launching dinghies. The launch basin was protected by a seawall and had a relatively small opening out into the mouth of the Severn River. While I personally prefer launching off of ramps, the basin is very small for maneuvering Tornadoes after launching. Eastport Yacht Club has hoists, which I hate. Eastport's main issue was lack of dry storage space.

Another space issue was the problem of inactive members storing boats. West River Sailing club had seen a big decline in racing activity over the years and has inactive fleets. But many of these inactive people are still members who have friends and social life at the yacht club. It is politically difficult to boot them in favor of vibrant, new groups, although the vibrant new groups certainly would bring new life to an old dog.

I know that Tcat sailors at Cabrillo Beach YC use bridles and a crane, and we did so when we sailed the 2000 Nationals there. I found it to be time consuming and difficult. Perhaps I'm just not good at it through lack of practice. I used to not like ramp sailing, but I prefer it to all other launching now since it is so easy to roll boats on asphalt and since there's no sand to get in all the running gear. As far as Eastport went, the cranes were in relatively exposed water. I wasn't too sure how I was gonna keep a Tcat from getting damaged when launching in wind and seas. Perhaps lack of experience on my part.

Hi:

Belonging to a YC costs money. No doubt about it. In the case of PPYC, a negative is that PPYC is a for-profit club that exists to make money for the owners. In a perfect world I'd like to swear allegiance to a racing club whose facilities were owned by the members. PPYC doesn not have existing racing programs. That doesn't mean that they couldn't. CRAC certainly has the expertise to set one up, including junior programs. I've come to believe that if we cat sailors want to belong to a club and have a club cater to our interests, we're gonna have to find the place best suited to our boats, then get active and by doing so guide the club toward our interests. While PPYC is for-profit, it is still the best raw facility around. While it doesn't have a racing program, we could start one. Then PPYC would become a great resource for cat sailing. You guys are doing almost the same thing in Galesville. The facility is pretty rudimentary in that it is a vacant lot. But you guys have a racing program that is growing. If you all could buy that lot you'd have the beginnings of a real cool club. Maybe it would never be perfect (I understand that the reason that lot is vacant has something to do with running water issues), but I imagine the other clubs in Annapolis started in a similar way, just earlier in time, when things were cheaper.

I've always wanted to find some bit of land in some depressed part of the Chesapeake (read Eastern Shore) and buy it up with a group of sailors, to start a club. I've come to realize that while doing so could help insure that the club wouldn't disappear due to land use issues or ownership issues, those issues ain't show stoppers. Other clubs with very active multihull communities such as Miami YC and Cabrillo Beach YC are built on leased or rented land. It's really the members that make the club, and not necessarily land ownership. Such a club could exist in Annapolis if we so chose. I can see myself getting involved in such an effort once our Olympic campaign is over.

-Greg

If you are truely interested in getting some property on the eastern shore, I may be able to help. My father is the VP of the largest land developer on the Eastern Shore. He knows about property in places that many people don't even know existed. I launch my cat from my grandparents rocky shore with a makeshift ramp made up of old 2x12"s. However, the opposite shore of the creek would make for a PERFECT place to launch and store boats IMO. Only problem is Boone Creek is prone to sandbars at low tide See attached photo.
(the beach I am referring to is in the background, behind my baby)

Spot on, Greg. When you get done with your campaign and are ready to start, let me know. By the way, Fairwinds marina in Cape St. Claire (where I live) allows on-trailer mast up storage, and there's two launch ramps, bathrooms, water, electricity, for $300-$500 for the season. Annualized that would work out the same as PPYC, but you're paying for the months you use. Almost the same sailing venue (mouth of Magothy), but you have to use the launch ramp instead of a beach. I always thought that could be the basis for a club as well.

The owner of our lot started to build and then got tired of the run-around on permits from the County.

The West River Sailing Club members usually talk of space issues whenever cats are mentioned. Yet when you peek in their lot it doesn't seem too cramped... I remember hearing awhile ago that they had a big politcal fight that resulted in some of the classes leaving, including the Stars. I know their IC guys wouldn't mind us being there... Fast and Fun seemed well received there, but I did get to overhear the usual drivel about how our do/don't sail...

In reply to why don't beach cat owners join yacht clubs,
and Keiths answer:
"Maybe we are just all cheap! "

That's it for me.

I am very lucky to live near a place that has cheap mast up storage on a large river (Patuxent) just off the Chesapeake bay 1 hour south of Annapolis. An owner of small family farm on the water was a cat sailor when younger so has some bond with us and lets us keep our boats on a small corner. We have a club in name only with about 14 cats on the beach right now. But only 1/2 activly sailed. No facilities. Don't even have T-shirts, but do have a web site (Southern Maryland Catamaran Club http://www.geocities.com/sailsmcc/ ) I just hope building restrictions stay in place so they can't develop that land!

There is a local yacht club that I could join, SMSA. They are mostly a big boat club but do have an active weekly dingy racing program that includes catamarans. I pay a fee to race with them but do not have to join.

But bottom line the benefit to me to join would not be worth the cost since I already have mast up storage. We are relatively rural so the YC is not to expensive. I would join our local YC if I needed to for mast up storage but I am not sure I would join a more expensive club such as PPYC in Annapolis.

I'm another cheap cat sailor, but a lucky one. I pay $0 per year for year-round mast-up storage right on the beach, with the Gulf of Mexico 125 sandy feet away. It's a "vacant undeveloped lot" with restrictions that pretty much keep it from being developed. I leave my Cat-Trax tied up under my boat, and have a cinder-block sunk about 8' deep in the sand with a thick nylone rope coming up to tie my boat down with.
There are 3 other active catamaran sailors that keep their boats there, and 3 fairly abandoned cats. A lonely Escape that belongs to some friends of mine also sees frequent use.
Behind the sand dune that my boat sits in front of is a house who's owners only occasionaly use. When they are not present I can park in the driveway, and even use the hose to clean up a little when I'm through sailing. Two blocks south of my boat is the Sandbar Restaurant, which has an open-air deck and good food at a reasonable price for lunch.
The only caveat is that you have to sail your boat to the beach- the beach access road that ends a few yards from my boat has posts which prevent vehicle access. I suppose a couple guys could pick the boat up and over the posts if they were determined enough...

Our sailing club is located in the outer harbour on Lake Ontario in Toronto, Canada. We have about 150 members.Our club has mostly lasers and beach cats, but we have a limit of only 30 cats. The club is called the Water Rat Sailing Club and we are able to keep the cats on the beach or lauch from the ramp and keep our boats there all winter. At the club we have a porta potty and a sink and shower that is home made through troughs and rain barrels. The club also has a commitee boat with flags and racing bouy's and we race 2 times a week during sailing season. There is free beer provided after every race and the first thursday of every month there is a free BBQ. Our club is run by volunteers and is very relaxed and low key. I feel very lucky and fortunate to have a place to sail, race, store my cat and just relax and hangout for $150.00 per year. And that is Canadian dollars. Marvin.

How cheap are cat sailors???

Damn cheap and its killing the sport (racing) and interest in cat sailing!

Everyone recognizes that as a sport and as a boating activity, catsailing is at best holding its own. I suggest that folks look at how their choices with respect to where and how they go sailing impact on the sport as a whole.

The majority of responses were from sailors who keep their boats on essentially undeveloped property with zero and I mean zero amenities ( a port a pot is a big deal)
IMHO, this "rustic" enviorment is not and will never be attractive to new sailors or families who might get a cat and start sailing her.... (racing is way down the road for these newbies). It is just too harsh a place to be with family and invited friends.

A second large group of racers trailer from their back yards and establish a club at public parks for one weekend a month (Hobie regattas). Again the facilities available are rudimentary and a new sailor must trailer the rig AND get help from the spouse to raise the stick.. Most importantly.... a new sailor or interested sailor would have an impossible time finding this club. Finally, its asking an awful lot of a new sailor to go racing.

If trailering out of your back yard to public parks or roughing it on undeveloped property were such a great way of getting folks interested in sailing ... How come the monohull and dinhy sailors are not following our lead???

Establishing comfortable facilites for sailing and racing cats costs money and I believe that we should recognize that we have to step up to the plate and build these facilites and clubs.

Take Care
Mark

I'll offer a counter-point.

Maybe people that enjoy outdoor activities break down into two categories - one that values amenities and one that doesn't. On the monohull side, there are a ton of boats being kept in marinas that are not clubs. They cost less, and they don't have pools and tennis courts. I keep my keelboat in such a place. I could put it in a club-type facility in the area and double my slip fee if I valued those things. I, and a whole lot of people, don't. So I'm not sure that facilities like that are a requisite for growing sailing. There are lots of monos sailing off of moorings - the ultimate in no amenities.

Go to Sandy Point on a weekend and check out all power boaters using the ramps. They don't need a fancy club to grow their sport.

I don't play racquetball any more because the clubs kept adding things I don't use and raising the fees for court access.

Our rustic facility actually turned a few people away this year. We thought having the porta-pottie for the Lighthouse race was pretty cool. Some of our newer members are couples/newlyweds.

In terms of money, if buying a cat and putting it in a club type facility costs anywhere near a full size boat (sail or power) the whole family can ride on at once and do overnights, I think cat sailing will ultimately lose. I don't think I could ever justify the expense to my family for them to hang out at the club so dad can go sail. But, that's me, I know some people do.

But it's no doubt that the fancy cubs and facilities thrive, so there is a market there as well, obviously. And maybe they will help grow the sport. But again, if to get into the sport I need to buy a $14k boat and then pay a high fee to store and sail it, and the boat's primary use for racing, well...

I still think that to grow the sport we need to reach out to and bring in new sailors, not try to shift the habits of existing ones. And I'm not sure raising the amount of money required will help unless the image/societal part begins to draw the money crowd.

So maybe both approaches offer benefits and drawbacks, but both approaches are in full use for monos and dinghys as well. I wouldn't blame one for keeping the sport down.

That having been said, I do believe that we need some permanent facilities that cater more to cats around here. But I'm not sure I agree they need to or should be AYC, PPYC, EYC caliber/cost facilities.

I would love to be involved somehow in making a "cat haven" on the Eastern Shore. There are areas available, it just depends on how far you're willing to drive to get to your boat.

i dont belong to a yacht club for many reasons- 1. i have great free access to a beach i can roll the boat out on the trailer on with access to the harbor and ocean (sta 12. sullivans island). 2. have you seen the waiting list on some of these clubs, for membership and room in the parking lot, even if there is access to the water? 3. i am not a people person. 4. i hate going to meetings about sailing. 5. i go sailing to get away from everything and only concentrate on controlling the boat. 6. i am sure there are more....

Guess I will just ask another question off my original post.
What about families? I know that when people start having children, they tend to leave the beach scene because wives/mothers don't want to spend the whole day on a beach with two or three young children, dealing with sometimes primitive (or nonexistent) restroom facilities, having to provide shade to somehow keep the children protected from the sun, maybe having to deal with rain and wind and/or cold conditions, prepare food out of a cooler, while the husband/father is out sailing. My feeling is that during those years when you have young children, a club with facilities offers amenities that will make it more fun and comfortable for the rest of the family that are on shore while the men are out sailing.

And, of course, it is important to belong to a club that has a junior sailing program so the children can get involved at an early age.

A club gets your children involved with other children who sail, and that is the key. I know from personal experience, because my sister and I are still sailing, and I can guarantee you that all the other kids we knew from the yacht club we belonged to are still sailing, unless they are dead.

It seems like most of the posts on this thread are about me, me, me, and do not mention family.

Hi Keith

I think you are comparing apples and oranges here. Keel boats and Power boats are self contained vessels. They offer shelter, a head, fishing platform, swim platform, galley and a place to keep some of your junk. Marina's or botel's are great solutions when you can come down and hop onto your self contained vessel and go boating. People have no problem in paying for this facility if they don't want to trailer a boat. (The power boat launch at Sandy Point is essentially a marina except that you trailer in your self contained vessel and then go boating.) This is very different then cat sailing for recreation.

Notice... i did not say sport.... A sport implies some sort of competition. For that... you need to gather a group of people at some location, organize around some rules and then go play. IE... our regattas.

I believe that families and casual boaters find the undeveloped beach too uncomfortable to be practical. As Mary W noted... Its a me me me versus a we we we orieintation.

You wrote:
I still think that to grow the sport we need to reach out to and bring in new sailors, not try to shift the habits of existing ones. And I'm not sure raising the amount of money required will help unless the image/societal part begins to draw the money crowd.

Well my point is that cat sailing is a great family activity and by not choosing to support family friendly facilites aka yacht clubs in liu of cheap cheap cheap water access we are Not and Never will attract new sailors.

You wrote:
So maybe both approaches offer benefits and drawbacks, but both approaches are in full use for monos and dinghys as well. I wouldn't blame one for keeping the sport down.

I disagree for the reasons just stated and secondly I do not know of a single dinghy sailor or group of sailors who store their boats on undeveloped beaches. They are in clubs or dinghy friendly marinas!

Keit h wrote:
That having been said, I do believe that we need some permanent facilities that cater more to cats around here. But I'm not sure I agree they need to or should be AYC, PPYC, EYC caliber/cost facilities.

In our 5 state region, Podickery, (Deluxe) Rehobath and Potomac PRSA and Spray Beach (Excellent), Sandy Hook (good) and your club WRCSA (spartan) are the availble locations. Obviusly more locations would be helpful in attracting new sailors, simply from the travel to the club perspective.

Final point... I think that your comparison of costs for Fairwinds... a marina with a ramp... and the the costs of keeping your boat at one of the clubs would be about 20 bucks a month difference between them all.!

Take Care
ps... good luck with your rebuilding project!

Mark

Mark, I supect we'll maybe have to agree to disagree a bit...

A lot of the monos/power boats in marinas don't have much for accomodations. Some are trailerable and are in a slip for convenience sake. There's lots of expensive stuff, but there's lots of stuff that ain't much more than a daysailor. My boat fits that bill - it has accomodations, but it's only really usefull comfortably as a daysailor. I've seen dinghies on racks on beachs, and one of my crew races Flying Scotts out of a lot that offers a porta-pottie for amenities (they have a pretty consistent turnout, families too). PWCs launching from Sandy Point, not self-contained.

I'll go out on a limb and say that a sport doesn't necessarily have to involve competition, but that's my take. Going biking, running, rock climbing, hiking, doesn't have to involve a competition, sailing shouldn't either, maybe some would say they're only outdoor activities, I'll call them sports. Growing the sport of sailing to me means getting more people on the water sailing, whether they race or not. Get enough people sailing for fun and more folks might show up for a race. Making it expensive and exclusive may be counterproductive. I know folks that express interest in learning how to sail until they check the prices at sailing schools and for keeping boats. All of my crew (except my wife) learned to sail at the GSFC sailing club - cheap.

As for what my family should do while I sail, well, I prefer that they have the opportunity to go sailing with me, all of us at the same time. I have fond memories of that as a kid, it would be cool to continue the cycle. Maybe a beach cat can provide that. I suspect that's when people consider larger boats, be they monos, power, or some form of larger multi if they can afford it. At that point in life, if I look at a beach cat that can't provide a family experience in the sport of sailing, and it costs just as much as a something else that will, I won't spend the money on the cat first. And I love sailing cats. But I'd rather be on the Bay with my family onboard, not having them sitting at the clubhouse wondering when Dad is coming in. And maybe that will have to be on a powerboat. ;-( Of course, I say this not having kids yet... If it ends up everybody but me hates sailing then adjustments might be made and an upper scale facility will fit the bill.

Yes, the cost for Fairwinds, and even our club (WRCRA), may seem just a hair cheaper if you look strictly at the month cost. But, you have to join the upscale places on a yearly basis if I'm not mistaken, whereas the other places you pay only for the season you're going to sail. It's the difference between $500 and $1400. Pool's mighty cold in January.

We do need more access to water in the Chesapeake. I'd personnally hate to see the access tied up in expensive clubs.

So, I'll still say both fit a need/niche.

Peace.

What is reasonable to pay for membership at a yacht club?
I am a member of the Miami Yacht club (FL), They charge me $80.00 per month, $30.00 of which is funny money redeemable at the bar. Initiation was $300.00. This includes use of the property only. No storage at all. On this months bill I got charged $10.00 for dry slip fees because I left my boat on the property Friday night to get an early start on Saturday morning. To keep my boat at the club is an additional $80.00 per month. I am not a cheap person but I am not wealthy either. Is $160.00 for mast up storage in line with the rest of the country?

I can speak for two marinas [one with a grass beach] in my area that have mast up dry storage with access to a close ramp for about $50 month. I have a wide beam cat and this enables me to put the boat together and either leave it on the trailer or beach. The other lake has a rock shore and no beach around the entire shore but its 12 miles from my house as well as being a constant level lake. Several cats sail out of there but I like the grass beach for cats. Both marinas have full locker rooms with showers, restaurants [one with live entertainment on weekends], security and fences with locked gates, well maintained etc. Dogs and kids rule at both marinas. The yacht clubs are at least double almost triple for the same service.

thom

Well I'm about to bust someones bubble. Here in Louisiana its about as good as it gets. Its not quite as warm as south Fl. in January but its not bad. We have a club that the biggest boats are only about 27-28'. Cost is about $65/quarter (not month) and on site storage is only about $20. Wet slip fees are $75/quarter. The lake is not excessively large but the sailing is good. There is access to other lakes if you want to sail to them. This club is very small boat friendly, cats, dingys, small keel boats. Good facilities too! Just wish I had more time to sail!

Clayton D.
Stiletto 27, Hobie 16

Hi Keith

Yeah... we probably won't agree on this issue. One point and one comment to conclude.
you wrote
A lot of the monos/power boats in marinas don't have much for accomodations. Some are trailerable and are in a slip for convenience sake. There's lots of expensive stuff, but there's lots of stuff that ain't much more than a daysailor. My boat fits that bill - it has accomodations, but it's only really usefull comfortably as a daysailor. I've seen dinghies on racks on beachs, and one of my crew races Flying Scotts out of a lot that offers a porta-pottie for amenities (they have a pretty consistent turnout, families too). PWCs launching from Sandy Point, not self-contained.

My point is that these day sailors will leave the dock and go some where.... Cats are on and off the beach and are used like windsurfers and PWC. I feel that the Beach /Club venue is critical to enjoying the catamaran way of sailing.

You also wrote:
if I look at a beach cat that can't provide a family experience in the sport of sailing, and it costs just as much as a something else that will, I won't spend the money on the cat first. And I love sailing cats. But I'd rather be on the Bay with my family onboard, not having them sitting at the clubhouse wondering when Dad is coming in

I certainly understand your point about the family and everyone has a budget for their toys. One point that you might consider though. I have watched lots of boating families at Podickery over the years. The families with small kids.... simply lug the kids around on the boat. As the kids get bigger... they get a bigger boat. But as the kids get independent... they seem to hate going out on the boat..they fight to stay at the pool with their friends. The are easily bored and boating is nothing special. On the other hand, I have seen other families keep the kids interested by getting them on boats, windsufers, small cats that are age appropriate and theirs! . Mike Fahle has written on occasion that more little boats are far superior to larger and larger boats for the whole family. The OCRA Club seems to be balancing racing and social activities along with joining yacht clubs quite succesfully.

Take Care
Mark

Hey Mark,
I'm not sure what you mean when you "these boats will leave the dock and go somewhere" - most just take a noodle run around the River or Bay and return. Some go to spots to anchor for the day or night, but most go for a sail and come back, pretty much like what I do with my cat when I day sail. Maybe you mean lots of trips back and forth to the beach, whereas the marina boats go for a while and come back, not sure. Not sure if that's really a diff.

I may be the odd one - I never lost interest in going out for a sail with my folks as a kid. We'd pack up some food and head down the boat and spend the day sailing around the Bay. Never anchored, never went overnight. But usually started mid-day and came back late. The only complaint would come from my Mother when my Dad, Brother, and myself insisted that burying the lee rail was the only fun way to go upwind! Light air days were boring, but we were still where we wanted to be. And my brother and I were into sports and all the usual stuff, so we had distractions.

I'll agree that for turning youngsters loose on the water in something age-appropriate is good. And I am a strong advocate of having as many boats as you can (don't make me count...), just because you should. Growing up, in summer time we had a small skiff and other stuff to use, and we made use of them (catch minnows, sell to bait store, buy gas for outboard...), none required a yacht club. The family outings are what stick in my mind - the times we kept the boat in fancy facilities with all the trim none of that stuff ever got used - if we were there we went sailing and nobody got left/stayed behind, so the extra money was wasted.

So, again, have lots of toys - but when you do, one or the other will take priority. And if costs as much to store/use a more limited toy as it does a bigger one, guess which one will lose in my house. But again, different situations call for different things, so I still say both are relevent. And I don't believe fancy facilities are a requirement for all of us.

Now, again, if PPYC wants more cats, I would suggest they offer a reasonable monthly or seasonal (not a yearly commitment) beach rent deal, with the pool and tennis as optional (not required) extras. Then advertise it. I'll bet they'd have success, and people could option up or down according to lifestyle and budget. I would even consider it. By the way, the last time I was at PPYC a lot of the beach cats didn't look like they were getting the use your argument would support, but appearances could be deceiving.

Hi Keith

you wrote
Now, again, if PPYC wants more cats, I would suggest they offer a reasonable monthly or seasonal (not a yearly commitment) beach rent deal, with the pool and tennis as optional (not required) extras. Then advertise it. I'll bet they'd have success, and people could option up or down according to lifestyle and budget. I would even consider it

Several have tried and failed. because the managment treats the cats the same way as the powerboats... Its a package deal club membership plus slip fee.

The facility has the beach, grass picnic area with grills and tables, well equiped fittnes room, pool and bathhouse, Tennis court and club house with full kitchen and club house with tables chairs, couches and TV's. I think I pay about 1400 per year.

you wrote:
. By the way, the last time I was at PPYC a lot of the beach cats didn't look like they were getting the use your argument would support, but appearances could be deceiving.

No... you are correct... the boats are not used very often and several are for sail. Even a fantastic sailing location and facilitity does not insure a succesful catamaran scene. More is needed!!!

Take care
Mark

we have a yacht and sailing club. emphasis on sailing. i guess i'm pretty lucky, mast up storage $50 a year, dues $425 a year. we have a few yachty types , but active small boat sailors run the show. the club was started by a bunch of local sailors who got together and acquired some waterfront property, they started out in a municipal parking lot. big things can happen thru cooperation, starting a club is the first step. charleston has a very active sunfish club, they organize races, meet and party, and they dont own any property- yet.

I know the local sail club on Lake Hartwell has some catamarans but they are hardly ever used - some of the owners own mono-slugs as well. Personally, I haven't joined because I travel/race so much with my boat that joining the club doesn't make sense for me. The club is 45 minutes from my home and I would be constantly going back and forth to set the boat up and take it down saving me little or no time at all.

I've considered leaving a second boat at the club (I've got three right now !) but when I go sailing 'recreationally' it's usually for some race practice or tuning - so I need to sail my 'race' boat when I'm on the water.

There is a marina on the same body of water that will rent me fenced in stick up trailer storage for $30 / month and I am heavily considering that for next summer. If the sailing club were to offer a seasonal or monthly rental the eminities would be much more affordable.

Another thing that keeps my application from entering the envelope is a mandatory work time you must put in at the club...something like 10 or 20 hours a year. I do understand having that requirement but I would also like to see an option out of this kind of requirement. Perhaps I could offer products from my vinyl/sign business instead or could pay a slightly higher rate to opt out of the work. It's not that I don't care for doing yard work rather that I simply need to take care of other things when I'm not out on the water.