Catsailor.com

Where did everyone go?

Posted By: Timbo

Where did everyone go? - 01/22/18 11:22 AM

Where did everyone go?
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/22/18 11:32 PM

Hello @TeamTeats and @Timbo good to see some of the long time members pop up.

After Rick passed away last January a lot of work was done to keep this site going update the software. The forum works and is more "spam free" than ever before due to the updates.

I think people got out of the habit of using the Catsailor forums but I'm hoping for a come-back this year. Please spread the word that Catsailor.com is a safe and reliable place to discuss catamaran sailing again.
Posted By: TeamTeets

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/23/18 03:25 AM

Thank you Damon for all the work and money you put into bring this back. It is certainly worth rescuing.

I also heard from CRAM racers that they are too on the comeback and growing.
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/24/18 12:16 AM

Damon, I think that was the best $100 investment I made last year to help you keep this forum alive. I second Mike Teet's comment and hope that you will keep the forum alive and well for at least another year. I am sure you could use the time doing many other things and that is not lost on many of us. Thank-you for your efforts!!

Another Mike from Ohio
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/24/18 06:21 PM

Thanks Mike and Mike, good to have the support of the Ohio crowd!

2017 was a rough one for me, so I'm hoping 2018 brings less turmoil and more sailing!

To keep Catsailor.com and TheBeachcats.com running, I must come up with a plan to produce income to allow me to spend more time working on it, or paying people to work on it.

Member forums are still the best long-term support for an activity, the history of knowledge that is built up over time is wonderful for anyone newly entering, or returning to the the sport.

Facebook and such are great for instant communication but unfortunately don't create the history and library of knowledge needed to support a sport.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/25/18 04:37 AM

Well to launch things off on the forum.... you just have to revisit the past issues and see if the community can find some new agreement or consensus.

Here are some unresolved debates.

Portsmouth or SCHRS.... What's the best solution for a region and their organizing authorities.?

What do you do about a yardstick boat that gets faster with design advances (F18s and decksweepers) when you don't have enough data to run the Portsmouth engine?

What rating would you use for a modern foiling A cat?

What do you do with huge legacy of F16 designs under various rules in portsmouth or SCHRS?

When should a one design class in a region decide to race with in the handicap fleet?

Is there any buzz about the non Olympic fleet getting into the foiling N17?

What teams are forming to challenge Bora for the US slot.

Whats the fair way to manage foiling boats in 2018?

The junior racing scene has stabalized on Nacra 15s. How could your region support/advise a wanna be junior sailor in this environment?

One design fleets come and go in a region.... What are the success stories... What is the predictable outcome.... What's it take to keep the fun factor a constant?

Any interest in starting a where are they now thread on past contributors to cat sailor?

CRAM and CRAW have decided to do another Catfight... What are the other Big Can't miss events this season?

I gotta million of em!!!
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/25/18 04:43 AM

Those are great, go for it. Pick a few you feel strongly about and start a topic for each.

I like the "Where are they now" idea. Probably a lot of folks who were big posters years ago are still sailing, just not posting here like they used to.

There are so many exciting things going on at the top of the catamaran sailing sport with all the new foiling designs, Olympic boat, and the Nacra 15 Youth boat is really taking off.
Posted By: TiberiusGV

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/25/18 09:40 PM

CRAM will be very interested to know about the Portsmouth or SCHRS debate. We have an ongoing discussion on if we should move away from Portsmouth.

We're flattered to hear you call Cat Fight a cant miss event. We hope it will grow.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/26/18 03:38 AM

TiberiusGV

A bit of history that your club CRAM and mine CRAC experienced back in the day. Our clubs used the NAMSA catamaran rating system administered by Herb Malm. US Sailing took over the Dixie portsmouth system and with Darline Hobock taking the volunteer lead made a commitment to support the multihull racing scene. Both clubs vigorously debated a move from NAMSA to US Sailing Portsmouth. I have a vague memory of speaking with Roger Cochran at the time. The core principals remain the same and are:
Accuracy
Transparency
Authority
Robustness

Accuracy How close are the ratings to the true rating of the class.
Transparency Do the rank and file racers KNOW what data and methods are used to generate changes in the ratings and do they think this process is fair.
Authority The yacht clubs and catamaran clubs want to know that they have the support and approval of regional and national bodies that can settle all disputes.
Robustness. Can the ratings quickly get to a fair rating for all of the boats that want to go racing. Recalculating last seasons results using the New... better more accurate ratings (not saying I did this....errrr ahem...) is just nuts.

Concurrently, the kind donation of the Hoyt Jolley endowment to support a multihull championship within US Sailing Adult Championship programs was a powerful incentive for most clubs to switch from NAMSA to US Sailing Portsmouth. The idea was that sailors would use one handicap system to go racing. The Authority of US Sailing was a big factor in CRAC's decision to change to USPN.

The Robustness of the Dixie portsmouth system was limited because it is founded on the premise that fleets of one design class boats are being rated. Catsailors of course are constantly trying out modifications to their one design class. This presents a unique challenge to rating systems that presume a fleet of boats. One offs, or changes in rigs, sail areas, boards, etc etc etc are, by definition, not a fleet of boats. The solution of course was to modify the Dixie portsmouth system that was founded on statistical data collection of class data by creating a table of flat percentage modifications. Presto... the statistical system was now robust!

In 2018, the criteria are the same.. Accuracy, Transparency, Authority and Robustness.

Analysis of the SCHRS 2017 measurement rating table was compared to race results from the French racing scene for these classes.


Summary chart for C1 AHPC Viper Double Nacra 20 carbone F18 A Class classic Nacra 17 old Olympic

The SCHRS annual review states. (I can get permission to forward you a copy if you need)

2.4 All these differences are below 2% and most are as expected. There is nothing here to compel us to make any changes to the formula.
Summary [b]SCHRS is accurate[/b]

SCHRS is transparent. Its a measurement rule and ALL of the class OD measurements are published as is the formula used to calculate the ratings. The web site has the data and calculators. Measurement is provided by World Sailing certified individuals.

SCHRS has the authority
of World Sailing and US Sailing will be including SCHRS information in the handicap systems that US Sailing supports. (All handicap sailing administration has been moved under the off shore committee.)

SCHRS is Robust
. A modification to a one design class is measured and the rating for the specific boat is calculated. A one off design can be measured and a final rating for that boat determined. For the owner.... his rating is by definition "accurate" and independently determined and reproducible since approved measure's use the same techniques. For the fleet, The modified boat is rated using the same methods used for their rating.


Final point, the UK RYA portsmouth system is a statistical system as well but fundamentally different in design then the US system. The UK system rates 10 catamaran classes because those are the active UK fleets that can generate yearly returns. They use a hybrid system for anyone with a boat in the dead boat society.

Will Rottering (Houston Area) is the US representative replacing me going forward. I and another volunteer serve on his US committee.

We would be delighted to answer any questions you have and World Sailing has been extremely responsive in getting final answers to any concerns we have raised.
Mark
Posted By: TiberiusGV

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/26/18 04:23 AM

WOW I really appreciate all of this information. I will be forwarding this on to Roger Cochran who as you may be able to guess, the CRAM Scoring Officer.
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/27/18 12:36 AM

Hi Mark,

OCRA used to do a lot of racing using Portsmouth for any boat that showed up (we encouraged that); popular class boats, some "one-offs", any modification that a racer wanted to try, and many "dead" class or rarely raced class boats. Over the years we found it to be very even and predictive - the sailors seemed to finish pretty much in the same positions regardless of the boats they raced; the classes seemed to finish in an expected pattern to each other, etc.

It worked so well that way that one time when we went racing in CRAM we saw results that were posted that we knew could not be correct because that predictability was wrong - one whole class beat all of the next class that started, for example, and (very long story, short) it turned out that there had been a five minute scoring error in favor of the unusually well performing class.

I always thought that a measurement class could be even more accurate since I have always also raced big boats that use measurement handicap systems (both keel and multihulls) and that is the way the moneyed racers have gone (good old PHRF is still alive and well here in MI and OH). I have no experience with that on the beach cat level and wonder if they use race result feedback to check their accuracy as Portsmouth did.

Mike
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/27/18 04:44 AM

HI Mike

Two points SCHRS World committee does an end of the year analysis comparing the gaps in time between the Formula prediction and actual race results. They publish this analysis. For 2017 they report that the gaps or deltas are 2 percent or less for 5 major classes using large events in France for the race data.

Of course a strong one design fleet will see 20 to 40 percent deltas between first and last place finishers sailing identical boats in class... even at the Olympic level! The SCHRS formula is remarkably accurate and no changes to the formula were called for in 2018.

To put this into perspective... consider a theoretical race. with 10 30 footers all sailed equally well. At the weather mark 9 boats will becoming in on starboard and will have to randomly line up bow to stern on the lay line.... The boat on port tack will get to the weather mark exactly the same time as the first boat on Starboard... However, the RRS of sailing will force port to duck the entire parade of boats and round the weather mark in 10th PLACE... On time... they will be 270 feet behind... or around 6 percent behind on time pending their speed over the ground... Even tho they sailed a perfect race. So... what this means is that the RRS will introduce as much as 6 percent error when you try to measure its performance around the race track. SCHRS has developed an accurate measurement formula for beach cats.

Second point, you write
"the sailors seemed to finish pretty much in the same positions regardless of the boats they raced;"

I agree, the pecking order in a fleet is really a good measure of sailing skill and as you noted.... a very good quick check on the validity of any set of calculated race results. We know the top sailors and we salute anyone who sails really well that day and breaks up the ol pecking order...

IMO, what we want is a handicap game that has Accuracy, Transparency, Authority and Robustness. We can go CRAZY about the last significant number in your rating... Forgetting that the RRS introduce noise... We really should value the other three attributes equally.... Having a rating system that is transparent eliminates a lot of the backbiting that undermines a sailors good performance.. Having an Authority outside of the local region also goes a long way in building support for a system. Darline Hobock, was a singular personality who generated national support for her volunteer efforts in administering US Portsmouth for us. SCHRS builds this authority in by its multinational contributors and international support. Of course Robustness ... ie can it handle Mike Fahles custom and home built sail for his mystere 4.3 (I think that was the last sail I remember you working on) is unique to us in the multihull world..... those dinghy sailors tend not to fiddle with their boats in the same way we do....

Take Care
Mark

Now... what happens when Steve Clark's UFO wants to come racing is a new problem... so... hmmm....
Posted By: Ventucky Red

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/27/18 05:48 PM

I am wondering if our community can support two, three different forums if you count Multi hull Anarchy... Is there a possibility to marry The Beach cats and Catsailor into one forum community?
Posted By: JeffS

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/28/18 08:22 AM

I suspect a lot of people are still here reading the forum like me, I still contribute a bit but only if I feel it's something useful. I was a member of The Beachcat forum many years ago and there are still photos of mine on that site but I never felt as comfortable as I do here. My only suggestion is that photos help dramatically to promote events and activities, for whatever technical reason this forum has always been a bit awkward to post due to sizing so it's not an impulsive thing to do
Posted By: samc99us

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/29/18 04:06 AM

I'm a member of both forums. In terms of ease of use, I won't favor one over the other, and I really appreciate Damons efforts to keep this site alive simply for the technical content. However, if it was merged with thebeachcats.com, we would make it work. The one thing I've always appreciated about this site is a lot of the top guys would come here and post advice and ask questions of fellow racers, without reading through some of the more mundane topics. I suspect that is what kept those guys coming back here. The downside is we have a bit of a split in knowledge, with beginners overwhelmed or unaware of this forum, and experienced racers ignoring the other. So it could be good for our community as a whole to merge the two, but we also must respect the White's family wishes in this regard.

Now onto SCHRS...

Mark lays out all he details. I will speak from practice. I have run results in both rating systems with no net difference between them. However, SCHRS offers an equitable rating system when modifications come into play. For example, this let one of our former F16 sailors race his boat in 1 up mode with main and jib and compete fairly. His rating ended up being a touch higher than a Nacra I20; he ended up finishing a touch behind the well sailed I20's on a good night and would often correct in front but equally often not. I won't say he was ecstatic about his number (behind used to the Portsmouth handicap system that just assigns a very simple modifier to your rating, no matter how much sail area you add), but I think it made for fair racing without any additional racing statistics required-statistics that would never come. The bottom line is it allows someone to build a line honors boat and race it fairly in a handicap fleet, or make modifications to their existing class boat and race it fairly under handicap without relying on a one size fits all modifier.

There are several other things SCHRS brings to the table. One is a high amount of global race data,primarily French, but they do take input from European events, Texel, and our U.S SCHRS committee. This mitigates the issue that was happening in Portsmouth whereby the top guns would all be racing I20's, that boats rating would get driven low and once the top guys were out of the class the rating would state low as there wouldn't be enough statistical data to correct it out for what a more average team could do against the other average teams.

Second, this rating system is managed by a French committee, they do it well and alleviate the burden on the U.S catamaran fleets to maintain their own rating system (Portsmouth for cats is almost a decade old).

Third, it is free, completely open source and easy to use.

Fourth, and most importantly, it seriously cut back on rating conversations at the bar.

Posted By: Phile

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/29/18 11:38 AM

Where is Wouter? He was a prolific poster for about 10 years and then disappeared overnight.
Posted By: Jake

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/29/18 01:46 PM

We are probably going to start using SCHRS locally on a somewhat limited basis this year.
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: What the heck is this? - 01/30/18 09:15 PM

he was beaten into silence

He was attacked at every turn -
If he "deserved it" It was due to something that happened before i joined (12 years ago)

it was pretty indicative of this forum - this forum had a lot of keyboard bullies
Posted By: JeffS

Re: What the heck is this? - 02/01/18 10:42 AM

I don't think that's a fair summary, he demanded the intellectual rights to the F12 program we were trying to pull together in the junior forum as a group, he deliberately delayed the writing of the rules for a long time because we wouldn't agree to among other things his demands of mandatory two piece masts. He didn't design any boats, Read the F12 forums for a feel it should all be there. That was his last hurrah he then baled on the forum.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: What the heck is this? - 02/01/18 07:29 PM

I recall him hailing the F16 as the pinnacle of the sport for a time... But it was just a fad... smile
Posted By: JeffS

Re: What the heck is this? - 02/02/18 05:10 AM

His driving of the F16 was a great success, if memory serves me, he home built a Taipan 4.9 then worked out to widen it with spin etc. from there the F16 organisation seemed to get momentum with him at the helm. He had to be reminded a few times he didn't design the Taipan 4.9 but generally he did well.
Posted By: waterbug_wpb

Re: What the heck is this? - 02/02/18 03:07 PM

You missed the joke, but yes, he did a lot for the class and website.

I think he even showed up at Nigel's spring fever event at Lake Lanier one year?
Posted By: brucat

Re: What the heck is this? - 02/02/18 03:46 PM

I got the joke, FWIW...

I do remember Wouter really getting into the F12, seeing it as a great prospect for youth. I don't think I realized that there was a significant group of other people involved (he did monopolize those discussions, IIRC).

Mike
Posted By: JeffS

Re: What the heck is this? - 02/03/18 07:13 AM

It started as a group of people wanting to do a new junior cat, turned into an F12 program steered by Wouter, then we needed rules, I ended up just buying 5 little cats to get the junior sailing going and gave up on the F12
Posted By: randii

Re: What the heck is this? - 02/07/18 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Damon Linkous
To keep Catsailor.com and TheBeachcats.com running, I must come up with a plan to produce income to allow me to spend more time working on it, or paying people to work on it.

I've been on that ride before. I hope it goes better for you than it did for me. Seems like operating costs are way lower than they were a decade later, at least.

Originally Posted by Damon Linkous
Member forums are still the best long-term support for an activity, the history of knowledge that is built up over time is wonderful for anyone newly entering, or returning to the the sport.
Facebook and such are great for instant communication but unfortunately don't create the history and library of knowledge needed to support a sport.

And losing a forum, with all the knowledge inherent in it, is a m-a-s-s-i-v-e loss to the affected hobby. Google Wayback only gets you so far...

Randii
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: What the heck is this? - 03/27/18 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
You missed the joke


I got the joke and I remember the sh!t storm that followed and it still makes me chuckle, the old days, good times. Can you name the originator of the joke?

Not missing Wouter!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: What the heck is this? - 03/27/18 04:01 PM

I haven't been active on the forum, or sailing for a bit. I sold my last boat two years ago because I wasn't using it and I could use the capital for expanding and growing my company. My little business has been taking all of my time to the tune of 70+ hours a week. No time for sailing, or much of anything else, unfortunately.

Sailing is such a massive time suck if you want to enjoy it. I hated being rushed driving to an event, or being rushed setting up the boat at an event. I had a 4-5 hour drive for most regatta's, and in order for me to do that means leaving at noon at the latest. I like checking things over carefully, a part or line failure on the water pissed me off to no end if avoidable. You can't control the weather, you can't control the competition, but you can control your own little floating world and there's no reason to sacrifice the time and expense of attending an event only to have failures. Showing up at 8pm the night before, getting up butt crack early while tired and grumpy to put the boat together in the dark is pretty much an open invitation for things to get FUBAR. I can't focus when I'm flying off the handle angry, sailing well takes some focus.

As far as decreased traffic on the forum, we've kinda beat every topic to death. Only to resurrect them, and beat them to death all over again. We've just ran out of **** to talk about, and that happened quite a while ago.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: What the heck is this? - 03/28/18 06:51 PM

That's why I bought a house on a lake, so I can walk out my back door and sail for an hour or two, then put the boat away with no setup-breakdown required.

Look for a place on a lake Karl, I heard there's like 10,000 of them up there!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: What the heck is this? - 03/28/18 11:23 PM

Yeah, and they're about $10,000 per square foot too
Posted By: phill

Re: What the heck is this? - 03/30/18 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Phile
Where is Wouter? He was a prolific poster for about 10 years and then disappeared overnight.


Wouter is doing OK. Pretty busy running a business and lecturing at Uni. When I last spoke to him he didn't have time to sail.
We all go through these phases .

I was posting in the folding Trimaran forum, detailing the build of an F85SR Mad Hatter.
Now it is built I sail and write reports but they are usually posted on Facebook.
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: What the heck is this? - 04/03/18 07:07 PM

People got older and race less often so that takes A LOT of the conversation away.

Not as many younger people got into, and/or stayed in the sport, especially at the intense level so many of us were involved before.

There are way more recreational choices now than a generation ago and children's sports have developed to require a far greater time (and money) commitment than in the past that limits other choices for a family.

Another big consideration is that much information about products is available on the web and most people have easy access to that info. Much of what we used to ask about is more quickly and easily answered online from the usual sources and more people have learned that they can find it easily enough on their own.

So, less use of the forums.
Posted By: John Williams

Re: What the heck is this? - 04/12/18 04:03 AM

i took a long time off from this forum. the "drill baby drill" thread ruined catsailor for me by showing me a side of some of my friends i couldn't stomach. older? sure. wiser? prob not.

i'm still racing on a variety of boats, but not as often as i did a decade ago. own an F16 (falcon) and it has become my most favorite cat ever, even though it is likely just a fad. soured on volunteering and took much of what's happened within US SAILING personally - ironically, it has been 10 years since i was given the CREW award.

picked up a couple of other hobbies and i've put a lot of time into my kid - she's coming along nicely.

nice to see some names i associate with really good memories. grateful for damon's efforts to keep this site going following rick's passing.
Posted By: Mn3Again

Re: What the heck is this? - 04/12/18 01:04 PM

Besides all the other reasons give (the fighting, trolling, all topics beaten to death)

the web 2.0 (user generated content) was the dawn of social media (circa 2005) and the beginning of the end for most forums

I think Facebook has drastically reduced the use of the forum - despite the fact that it makes for a terrible repository of data and is not searchable
Posted By: Mike Fahle

Re: What the heck is this? - 04/13/18 10:05 PM

Hi John,

I have the Falcon's predecessor, a Blade F-16 and love it; with the self-tacking jib, my wife likes to sail again - I have made some nice wings for it so it is our "cruising boat" now. It is as fun to sail as the Boyer A class cat I had but unlike the A cat, I can leave the mast up on it and be sailing in just a few minutes. The spinnaker makes it faster than the A cat and the snuffer makes that easy. The light weight makes my back happy so it is also my favorite cat now with a nice mix of all the desired traits!
Posted By: John Williams

Re: What the heck is this? - 04/14/18 04:04 PM

wings on a blade! please post pics, mike. agree on all points - rolling up the beach or the ramp at the end of the day with a boat i can move around by myself is a joy.

still grateful to you for the effort you put into the mystere 4.3 - i really liked that boat, and seeing so many on the start line at spring fever years ago was a hoot.

hope you and yours are well and happy!


Description: mystere nationals
Attached picture m43nationals2.jpg
Posted By: H17cat

Re: What the heck is this? - 04/16/18 09:31 PM

Hi John, glad to see you check in. Rarely check this forum, but was shopping for some used Wave parts for Sail Sand Point in Seattle. www.sailsandpoint.org.
The Hobie Fleet in Seattle, and the NW is going strong, with a lot of new youth and new familys. Mostly due to the efforts of Laura Sullivan and Peter Nelson. They are setting up a nonprofit to serve the Youth program. I even checked the Politics...section, and see Mike, Hobie1616 is still busy talking too himself, pages 75-81.
Regards, Caleb
Posted By: Damon Linkous

Re: What the heck is this? - 04/28/18 05:29 PM

Come on back, the site is back in business.
Posted By: NCSUtrey

Re: What the heck is this? - 05/18/18 08:27 PM

I still cruise through from time to time. I miss my "glory days" of cat sailing, but times change. I've been doing the majority of my sailing on a 1D35 out of Charleston with a few trips a year on other boats up the east coast. I do not miss all the off-topic BS threads that went around the forum.

And I do miss Todd Hart.
Posted By: DennisMe

Re: What the heck is this? - 07/10/18 02:48 PM

I ended up with a severe burn-out which prevented me from doing much of anything for some years. My sailing suffered a lot as my physical condition took a nose-dive.
My boat however (1985 Nacra 5.2, with added spin and removed center bar, square-top main and beam-sheeted blade jib), is still doing fine. Its time to re-gel the hulls though, they look like a slippery rock you might see in a river somewhere. I swear folks in ship-shape yachts turn around when I greet them, pretending not to have seen the Frankenboat... Do I give a $h17?
I'm faster than their 4KSBs anyway..
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