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Do you know for sure your boat won't sink?

Posted By: MaryAWells

Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 11/22/02 06:31 PM

Whether you have a multihull or a small monohull, do you know whether your boat will float if it is completely full of water? How can you find this out before you are in a life-threatening situation? We beachcat sailors all seem to complacently accept that our boats will capsize but at least they will not sink. But is that definitely true? Nobody seems to know. I have recently heard that some of the newer, lighter, more high-tech cats, partly because of their hull construction, can definitely sink. So how can you be sure, aside from taking your boat out into relatively shallow water and deliberately trying to sink it? But nobody wants to do that, because if it really does sink, how do you get it floating again so you can get it back on shore? So if you have any doubt about whether your boat would float, do you stuff it full of styrofoam -- how do you know how much is enough?
Posted By: jmhoying

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 11/22/02 07:05 PM

My 1976 Hobie 16 had blocks of styrofoam built into it from the factory, plus it was made with fiberglass / foam sandwich construction. My Prindle 18 hulls contain no foam and I think it is solid fiberglass construction. The only hope for flotation with the Prindle would be if the bow or stern is pointed up to trap some air.
Jack (now you got me worried, Mary)
Posted By: Sailing Pro Shop

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink?/ Cu - 11/22/02 07:12 PM

Hi Mary:

A simple and inexpensive solution are camping or mountain climbing cubitainers. They are collapsable water bottles that can be inflated once in your hull and provide dsiplacement that should help the boat limp to shore in the event of a hull failure.

MM
Posted By: Todd_Sails

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink?/ Cu - 11/22/02 07:54 PM

My first boat, a P18, yellow asym. hulls, #333.

While ~5mi offshore of West Beach, Galveston this boat began to take on water. I had a recent bottom job done, that had ruptured and leaked. To make a long stroy short, it floated after righting with the tops of the decks at the waterline, most everything underwater, but it floated my brother and I as a friend on a P16 towed the boat and us back to shore. It seemed that it had the floatation inherent in it not to sink, that was salt water however, may have made a difference.

I think someone should try it, take out the plugs, and inspection port lids, fully rigged, and see what it does, salt and fresh water. We could post it here in sort of a table format. I"m sure someone with a 6.0 could tell me their results 8'), it's be in the interest of safety research, let me know how your 6.0 does, I'll make a note.

Todd Bouton
N6.0na+
#111
Posted By: Jake

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink?/ Cu - 11/22/02 08:24 PM

the problem would then be getting the water out of the boat. Maybe the boat could be in shallow water and then you could replace the inspection ports and use an airpump (hopefully electric) to fill them mostly with air again. On my 6.0, the only holes in the hulls are the rear plugs and a rear inspection ports. The bulkheads would likely prevent air from escaping the bow of the boat if you just took the plugs and port covers off. That being said, it seems that it will be necessary to drill a hole in the bow of the boat ... I can't seem to find my drill at the moment but I'm pretty sure Todd has one. Let's use Todd's boat!
Posted By: Kevin Rose

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 11/22/02 09:01 PM

Mary,

If the risk of sinking is something that should be considered, what about using the flotation bags that are common in canoes and kayaks. Insert through the inspection ports and inflate.
Posted By: dave taylor

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 11/22/02 09:25 PM

you would have to have both hulls fail for the boat to completely sink. that being said, the best recommendation is to keep a radio, phone, and/or flares on the boat.
Posted By: DHO

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 11/22/02 10:27 PM

My TheMightyHobie18 has big foam blocks, one in each hull so that theoretically it would be pretty tough to sink it unless you broke both hulls so badly that these huge blocks would escape. Even then the boat would probably float.

David Ho
TheMightyHobie18 1067
Posted By: thom

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 11/23/02 01:17 AM

Mary-

My first Sol Cat 18 sank on the first sail. There was flotation but the water overwhelmed it. They had apparently not sealed the sandwich hull/deck properly and the hulls filled with water. We ended up turtled about four feet below the water. So the mast was released when it snagged. The boat raised about a foot. Finally we were close enough to shore to swim for it. The boat got dragged to shore after a few hours of looking for it. They replaced the boat and sails. They also accused me of hiting something that caused the soft deck to rupture outward. When I said the water filled hulls may have caused unusual stress they shut up. I sold the replacement boat after one season and bought a Tornado. I really don't know how that boat stood up overtime.

That was myy first negative experience in catsailing the next came when i saw a family of five on a Sol Cat 18. All three children were under five years old. That same dealer told them the boat would not capsize or sink...according to the new owner. I never saw them after that.

thom
Posted By: thouse

Some times sinking may be a better option..... - 11/26/02 05:43 PM

Some times it’s better if the boat sinks….

Our Solcat was sailed long and hard. It finally experienced major and catastrophic delaminating of its foam-sandwich hull construction.

After giving its all and sailing every mile it could possibly be sailed, a hull finally broke in two, at the front beam intersection. At that point the problem was: it WOULDN'T sink. NOT sinking meant we had to drag its broken and battered remnants back to shore. There we had to cut it up prior to burial in the local landfill, via the garbage can.

Thinking about it being cut up and waiting for the garbage collector still brings a tear to my eye and a quiver to my voice….. (Don’t worry, I’ll be OK. after my next whaaa-hooo sailing opportunity.)

Don’t you think, sinking with dignity, would have been a better suited and classier burial...???!!

Tom H.
Posted By: catman

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 11/26/02 10:42 PM

I can remember hearing of a well known sailor who would pour acetone through the hull on his Hobies to get rid of the extra weight of the styro blocks. The a-tone would melt the foam and it would pour out the drain holes.

Anything to save a pound or two.
Posted By: thom

Re: Some times sinking may be a better option..... - 11/27/02 02:21 AM

Tom-

Thats exactly where my SOl Cat 18 gave way as well. WHat year was yours?

Thom
Posted By: sail975

Re: Some times sinking may be a better option..... - 11/27/02 05:05 PM

One of the hulls of our first Hobie 16 split open along its keel (due to an accident on the trailer). We didn't notice the hull taking on water until it was too late and we capsized. With one hull full of water we could not right the boat because as it would begin to right all the water would ruch to the bow or stern and the bows or sterns would just sink. We eventaully were towed in by some friendly people in a motor boat. There was NO way the two of us could have righted the boat with the one hull full of water. The boat did not sink though...

Steve H.
Posted By: thouse

Solcat 18... - 11/27/02 07:08 PM

Thom:

Our Solcat 18 was a 1978 or 9 (I think).

It really was a fun boat....with lots of forward floatation, due to those very long bows in front of the front beam.

It's low freeboard made for some exciting, wet and wild whaaa-hooo sailing....and there were lots of rigging adjustments to play with.

What did you do with yours after its unfortunate demise...???

Regards and Happy Thanksgiving to all.....

Tom H.
Posted By: Todd_Sails

Float your boat - 12/02/02 04:38 PM

OK Jake,

Let's try it! C'mon down to Galveston Bay. We'll swamp'r and see!

Todd Bouton
N6.0na
#111
Posted By: thom

Re: Solcat 18... - 12/02/02 09:20 PM

Tom-

After they drug the mast and sails out of the mud and decided it was a new boat and sails or litigation they gave me the boat in the pic. That was 1973 I think. I bought a couple of Sailcraft of Canada Tornados and sold the Sol Cat 18 to a guy I met on the beach. I don't know what happened after that for certain but I think I saw it under a tree all faded out. That boat did singlehand very well and you could fly the hull so high the jib lost air. The new boat didn't leak but the decks were soft on that one as well.

thom
Posted By: carlbohannon

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 12/03/02 01:59 PM

I heard gasoline not acetone.
Posted By: carlbohannon

From experience and first hand observation - 12/03/02 02:26 PM

* Hobie 16's will float with both bows broken off at the crossbeams. It's like towing a wind chime though

* The pieces of old soft Gougeon Tornado's float after the boat breaks up. One nice thing about wood.

* Hobie 18's will sail with the first foot of both bows broken off. They do not point very well though.

* Reg White Tornado's will sail with one hull full of water and half the skin missing and only the sub deck holding the other togather. They go faster than a Hobie 18 with both bows broken off too.

* Marstrom Tornado's float with both hulls full of water. They reverse pitch pole if you are not careful though.

* H20's, P18-2 & N5.8 float with no bottoms. Hitting rocks or oyster reefs is a bad idea.

I seem to remember a couple of requirement that boats not sink. One was a US safety requirement and the other a general racing requirement from IYRU.


Posted By: thouse

Great post... - 12/03/02 06:17 PM

Mary... that was a great post....and I just smiled and smiled as I read it....

As I read it I thought you:

1. Have had lots of bad luck with boats....

2. Spent enough time on lots of boats to have had lots of "on the edge" experience...

3. Hang around some pretty wild and crazy boat driverds.... or

4. All of the above.

However, the question remainds...If you want to scuttle one that's given its all....how do you get it to sink...
Posted By: MaryAWells

Re: Great post... - 12/03/02 10:04 PM

Maybe fill it with sand and/or dirt and/or rocks? This is all experimental because most people do not deliberately try to sink their beach cats. There's probably a law against it -- like littering, or damaging the sea grass. In these parts, getting rid of a boat usually involves a chainsaw.

Yes, we had a boat that sank, but it was a big monohull sailboat that we were traveling and living on at the time. It was raised by inflating bags inside the boat and gradually lifting it with two tow-truck hoists.

I know, now you want to know why it sank. We were tied up to a new dock in the Hudson River. It had replaced an old dock, and somebody had neglected to remove some steel pilings from the old dock. They were below the surface of the water and were invisible because the water was opaque. While we were gone for the day, the old pilings dug a hole in our hull.

The reason I asked the question about beach cats is because somebody mentioned to me recently that some of the new, high-tech hull construction materials do not use foam core and may not have any inherent buoyancy -- and also do not have auxiliary flotation materials in the hulls. I don't know whether this is true or not, but it started me thinking about it because, as I said, nobody wants to try to sink their boat on purpose just to see whether it floats. So we just take it on faith that it will float. And the assurance or guarantee of a dealer or manufacturer is not going to be much comfort to me if my boat is sinking out from under me in the Gulf Stream.

Anyway, my original question, Do you know for sure you boat won't sink, was actually sort of rhetorical, because how CAN you know for sure? Do manufacturers cut a boat in half crosswise and put it in the water to see if the front and aft halves will float independently of each other? Seems like that would be a really good test.

If you are not sure whether your boat will float and you are worried about it, you should put some kind of flotation into your hulls -- maybe the inflatable bags that someone else suggested. Or you could fill it with that styrofoam packing "popcorn" or lots of lobster pot floats or whatever will fit through your inspection hatches. (If you are going to use little, loose things like that, probably better to put big plastic bags into the hulls, put the flotation stuff into the bags and then seal the bags.)
Posted By: carlbohannon

Re: Great post... - 12/04/02 06:07 PM

Mary

I have looked at most of the new boats. The only boat, that I think might sink if both hulls are holed, is a monoque carbon A-class. The hulls are ~ 2mm stressed skin carbon and nothing else in the hulls. For a race I would probably risk it. For everything else, I would probably want 10-20 liters of airbags in each hull.

Recently a lot of my packages have been padded with little half liter airbags. They are permanently sealed plastic bags. They are pretty tough. I would probably use them for floatation
Posted By: Berthos

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 12/05/02 03:48 AM

Attached is a photograph of an Auscat MkV A-class under construction. This photo came from the Australian High Performance Catamarans Website:

http://www.ahpc.com.au

You will notice in the picture that the cross members (if that's what they are called) are made largely from polystyrene. It is partly this use of polystyrene that enables these boats to be built so light. The polystyrene of course acts as positive floatation.

I'm not sure about the A-class rules but the Taipan 4.9 rules (which have a similar construction) suggest that each hull can support 50kg when swamped.

Rob Wilson
Taipan 4.9 AUS175

Attached picture 13805-auscat5lr.jpg
Posted By: Jim Williams

I had one go down! - 12/06/02 02:10 AM

I lost my first cat about 2 months after I bought it. It was a '78 NACRA 5.2 with solid glass construction (no foam core). The previous owner had done a very poor job of installing ports just forward of the cross beams after doing repairs. We were about 2 miles of Va Beach when we flipped it for the first time (big lesson learned). It began to take on water and we could not right as every time we hiked out, water would run to the back and it would just roll over backwards. Finally a power boat spotted us and took us under tow. The towing only exacerbated the leakage rate and it began to sink. The Coast Guard finally showed up and took us on board. They also took on the task of towing the boat for about 15 minutes, but my crew began to show signs of hypothermia and the Coasties decided the best thing to do was to cut the boat loose and get my crew back to shore. Meanwhile, some of my friends who had been sailing out from the beach to check on our status witnessed the NACRA slip into the deep, never to return. The only thing to float was one daggerboard which they rescued and I still have as a reminder. We were very lucky that everything turned out OK. I was undeterred and within two weeks had purchased another 5.2, this time I spent twice the peanuts to get an ’83 (also solid glass) which I have put many miles on and still have today.
Posted By: Hakan Frojdh

Nomex between the carbon layers, enough flotation? - 12/06/02 09:26 AM

The Tornado and the Marstrom A-cats has a 10 mm thick nomex layer between the carbon skins. That volume gives a lift of about 50 kg / hull!

/hakan
Posted By: h17windbtch6333

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 12/06/02 02:51 PM

i figured it out= i guess if you are really, really bored, on a wind less day with nothing else to do, and want to put your boat thru unnecessary stress and strain this is how to 'conrol sink' your boat= (this only works in tidal areas). at high tide anchor your boat in about 2' to 3' of water near shore. secure it so it want move around with 2 or more anchors. undo the drain plugs and watch her go down. you probably need to screw out the inspection holes to hasten process. you can even act like you are brave and 'go down with the ship'. oh, the beach goers will think your are wacko. as the tide goes out, she's on the hard again and should naturally drain! brilliant, huh?
Posted By: Mary

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/12/03 02:46 PM

Just thought I would bring this thread back to the top for possibly more debate, now that there seems to be some pictorial evidence that a Jav 2 hull will sink when holed. See attached photo that I borrowed from a post on the Old Forum. It is the Jav 2, sailed by Matt Struble and W.F. Oliver, that was T-boned at the Alter Cup.

Of course, it may be some sort of optical illusion. But there were verbal reports, as well, that the holed hull did indeed sink below the surface.

Attached picture 18625-Jav 2 sinking.jpg
Posted By: h17windbtch6333

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/14/03 12:19 PM

remember, it was believed the Titanic was unable to sink! Where is she now?
Posted By: Bob_Curry

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/14/03 02:19 PM

It's simple; I have a Hobie Cat with foam blocks. I'm glad the 1000 was cancelled now that we have all seen what one Jav218HT hull full of water looks like in flat water. Lord knows with heavy seas the outcome of the sailors!

BC
Posted By: Keith

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/14/03 02:23 PM

I thought the USCG requirements for small boats require enough flotation to keep a swamped/holed boat afloat and stable to a certain level. It appears that if both hulls were breached, this boat could sink completely, or at least deep enough to persuade sailors to abandon. What are the USCG specs? Does the Jav 2 meet them somehow? This reminds of the situation that ended up in a major lawsuit for NACRA...
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/14/03 03:30 PM

Mary and others,

>>>I have recently heard that some of the newer, lighter, more high-tech cats, partly because of their hull construction, can definitely sink.

Well it will be easy enought to establish which class designs will sink and which won't, just check the class rules.

Formula 18 rule B.1.2

Each hull shall carry at least 110 litres of flotation by solid closed cell foam, air bags, sealed air compartments in hulls and at least one inspection hatch.

source http://f18-international.org/Complete%20Formula%2018%20Class%20Rules%202003.pdf

Formula 20 rule B.1.2.

drijflichamen Niet van toepassing.

Literallt translation from Dutch: Flotation devices not applicable.

Source : http://www.formula20.org/


Formula 16 rule 1.5.2

"Each hull shall carry at least 50 liters of flotation, either by solid closed cell foam, solid blocks of compacted foam granulate, air bags or sealed air compartments."

Source : http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/F16HP_class_rules_section_A_box_rule.html

Similar rule as the F16 rule in the Taipan 4.9 class rules.


The A-cats don't have floation rules and mostly don't have use garanteed floatation in teh shape of foam or sealed air compartments. For this reason they can not obtain an European CE quality mark. The F18 class has such a CE quality mark and the F16 class is working at getting it. Alot of paper work ! But we will get it. If we have to increase our floatation to get it then we will.

I know that the Hobie Fox as an F20 design has foam block in the hulls to get positive floatation. I assume that they still have that since the F20 no longer require each F20 design to have it. It has been the hobie way to do that and I assume that they will keep doing that.



>>So if you have any doubt about whether your boat would float, do you stuff it full of styrofoam -- how do you know how much is enough?

Styrofoam will work by I'm told it is an open cell foam that will absorp water over time and make your craft needless heavier. Closed cell foam is better. Or if you use styro foam or even foam granulated (can be molded) than pack it tightly in a sealed back. Perferable vacuumed to make it hold shape.

Best is to fix (!) low in the hull to make it work even when the hull is partly flooded. Also fix it always. There is no use when it just rests in the hull only to float the your stern on top of the water surface. You'll be riding high with your sterns out of the water and you bows pointing down. No good sailing that way.


Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Well, we shouldn't overreact - 04/14/03 03:36 PM


Now, I must say that I take a different approach to class rules and how to do things than the F18HT class but a crew can just as well survive on the remaining hull that still floats.

And I know that sailing an F18 or F20 (inter 20) with a holed hull is no picknic either.

But then again there is a distinction between surviving and limping back to shore yourself.

But this problem can easily be solved but adding a floatation rule to the F18HT class rules.

Wouter
Posted By: Mary

Re: Well, we shouldn't overreact - 04/14/03 06:28 PM

Before a problem can be solved, people have to be convinced that there is a problem in the first place.
Posted By: Wouter

Very true ! - 04/14/03 08:31 PM


Indeed Mary.

Wouter

Posted By: Mary

Re: Very true ! - 04/14/03 09:11 PM

It will be interesting to see whether the F-18HT class now will require positive flotation to be added to their boats.

But requirements by a class association to add flotation to boats (if it is not inherent in the construction or at least added within the hulls by the manufacturer as independent flotation materials) is not going to work for the people who buy a boat just for fun, recreational sailing.

Those people do not join class associations, but they do buy boats, both new and used. And they probably assume their boat will float even if it is full of water. They do not have access to the information that we do.

Some racer decides to remove flotation inserts from his hulls to reduce weight. Some "cruiser" sailor buys the used boat later and does not even know that there was supposed to be flotation in the hulls.

So how do we protect a guy who innocently buys a boat that can't float if the hulls are compromised when he is out there on a beach-camping trip with his wife and two small children?

Heck, even for the BIG multihulls, the big selling point is that they may capsize, but they won't sink and it will be your liferaft.

And who would have thought that a little beach-cat would sink? I mean REALLY sink? I suspected it was possible for certain boats. But how do we know WHICH boats?

P.S. And for those who bring up that long-ago lawsuit about the Nacra that supposedly sank, it is not true. The boat did not sink and was still floating quite well, upside down, when it was recovered and towed in. The manufacturer prevailed in that lawsuit.

That is not say that I trust any boat to float unless I know there has been testing and unless I know that there is some kind of flotation that guarantees the thing will keep floating even if both hulls are ripped open. Aren't there any laws about this to protect the blissfully ignorant among us?
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Very true ! - 04/14/03 11:06 PM

Well,

The are some things to be said for those class rules that enforce garanteed floatation.

With respect to the F18 and other classes the boats are weighted before racing and reduction in weight that might be from removed floatation will void the boats race permit.

In some boat type like the Taipan the floatation requirement is satisfied by having foam bulkheads instead of timber or glass bulheads. It is pretty hard to remove those without losing hull integrity.

The fact that those bulkheads are made out of (glassed) foam blocks is the direct result of the Class rules.

In short when designers are faced with a garanteed floatation rule as the one in the F18 rules than they tend to try and incorporate that in the overall design as a element that does more than just take space. Of course not always. Hobie Fox is an exception.

Also from the perspective of the builders they have to sell a fully compliant boat and they can't really know wether a buyer will race to boat or not. Ergo they can't assume that the boat will never be measured and checked for compliance. They will then always assume that it will be measured and checked and be forced in practical sense to sell the boat with floatation.

Of course the class needs to take this rule up in her compliance checks / pre race checks. I know that the F16 will do that. We don't have the rule on having inspection hatches for nothing do we ? I know that we will have a serious word with the builder who sells boats which are not compliant with rule B.1.2.

Can a second hand boat builder be absolutely sure ? Only when teh boat has a current measurement certificate. But even then the buyer must check these things for himself. And when lacking floatation he or she can add it him or herself. Nothing is full proof.


With respect to laws protecting the "ignorant"
Well yes there are. the CE (Communion European) is one of those quality marks that concerns herself with issues like these in all areas and products. I haven't looked into the US version yet but I'm sure that I will soon enough after we that CE norm sorted out.

All buyers have to do is look for these marks. For example All Hobie Tiger owners will be able to find such a metal plaquette or sticker on their beams or hulls that deplays boat information and the CE logo.

Wouter
Posted By: Keith

Re: Very true ! - 04/15/03 01:15 PM

I mentioned the NACRA lawsuit NOT to make the claim that the boat sank. If I remember the story right, one hull did flood somewhat due to a leaking port cover. Supposedly this led the sailors to think the boat was sinking (or in danger of) and they decided to swim for shore, when indeed the boat stayed afloat and they should have stayed with it. They violated several common sense rules, and they paid a price for it. If I remember right, however, part of their lawsuit did make the claim of inadequate flotation. I mentioned it because I would think that such things would still be a sore subject in the industry, and that to produce a boat without some sort of positive flotation might be asking for it these days. Even my roto-molded sea kayak has expando-foam in the bow and stern for flotation. Again, I thought the USCG reg for small boats included a flotation requirement. Maybe a sealed hull counts, and breaches don't enter enter in the equation. In a high-speed sailing craft, a compromise to the hull is possible.
Posted By: Dean

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/15/03 02:23 PM

Floatation Suggestion:
Big foam "noodles" into the hulls. They weigh almost nothing and will support a lot of weight. They're also good for stuffing into the mast and beams.

Sol Cats:
I bought my yellow Sol 18 in New Orleans in '77. Sold it in Houston in 1983. Never had a problem with it. It was a great boat. I miss those old durable, solid boats.
Posted By: Kevin Rose

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/15/03 02:35 PM

[Linked Image]

I still feel that the cleanest, easiest solution for many boats would be to install a pair of kayak flotation bags. Just slip them inside the hull and inflate. They're light, and they don't absorb water. You can even get double-walled models that can be used to store gear (or beer).

[Linked Image]
Posted By: TeamTeets

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/15/03 02:50 PM

Oops, I posted a reply but somehow put it as a new thread... it is at:

other thread
Posted By: dacarls

Old NACRA lawsuit - 04/15/03 04:16 PM

The story I heard was that 4 people had gone out on this cat into the Atlantic, with one port cover actually missing. When capsized, therefore one hull filled, but did not sink. Sadly, they did not stay with the floating boat.
Posted By: Mary

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/15/03 07:23 PM

I just talked to W.F. Oliver, and he said the Bimare Jav 2's are required by law in Europe (as Wouter said) to have a certain amount of positive flotation. In this case, though, because of the size and location of the hole in the boat that was T-boned at the Alter Cup, the flotation was dislodged from where it was secured to the inside of the hull and it escaped through the hole.
Posted By: Kevin Rose

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/15/03 07:40 PM

Quote
I just talked to W.F. Oliver, and he said the Bimare Jav 2's are required by law in Europe (as Wouter said) to have a certain amount of positive flotation. . .


Mary,

Did W.F. mention what kind of flotation material is used? How is it secured?
Posted By: Mary

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/15/03 08:22 PM

Well, Kevin, he told me, but I was not in a position to be paying close attention or taking notes at the time -- and he called on a completely different subject. What interested me is that, as I had supposed, when you add flotation to your hull (not built into the construction), you may have a hard time keeping it inside your hull if you get a big hole. Or, as someone else said in this thread, the flotation, when unattached, can go to one end of the hull or the other and cause a problem of a different sort.

He did say that the Bimare uses foam-core construction and has foam bulkheads but that those alone are not enough to meet the European standards, so additional flotation is put inside the hulls and secured. In this case the foam, of whatever nature, was dislodged and got out through the hole.

I would really rather not be the middle man here, and I think it would be best if W.F. or a factory representative would explain what kind of flotation is installed and how.

And I don't think it is really productive to pick on one specific boat without getting information from as many manufacturers as possible about what they do to make sure their boats won't sink. The Jav 2 just happens to be the one that got captured on film.

Is this really a major problem? I don't think so. How often do you hear of a beach-cat sinking right to the bottom? No reason to blow it out of proportion. But, still, it would be nice to know for sure that your boat will not sink.

I started this thread in the first place primarily because I thought the issue should be addressed in regard to boats that are used in the Worrell 1000.
Posted By: Kevin Rose

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/15/03 08:51 PM

Quote
. . . I don't think it is really productive to pick on one specific boat without getting information from as many manufacturers as possible about what they do to make sure their boats won't sink. The Jav 2 just happens to be the one that got captured on film.


Mary,
I agree. Whenever a new design hits the market, there seems to be a mixed response, ranging from, "Wow that boat's cool", to "Ya, but will that thing hold up to the rigors of hard use like mine". Unfortunately, a single incident like the one at the Alter Cup can sometimes capture the lion's share of attention (like Jensen Beach a couple years back).

I was curious about the Jav's flotation because I was wondering if it were anything like what's been suggested in various posts in this thread.

As you said, the likelihood of a cat having both hulls compromised is probably slim. One hull full of air certainly would stay at the surface, however flotation that would keep the holed hull at the surface, too, might make the towing/salvage efforts easier.
Posted By: chipshort

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/16/03 11:23 PM

This link has some shots of the RC boats and the salvage operation. David Billing from the Clearwater Yacht Club did some outstange powerboat driving.

Funny thing, we just had some more chunks of the hull wash up on the beach yesterday. 5 days after the wreck!

The Salvage operation
Posted By: HoldenBeachin

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/17/03 12:42 AM

Hi Mary...

Just a thought, another possibility for cheap floatation assistance might be had from empty plastic soda or water bottles. They are pretty light when empty, of course, this is assuming your boat has access ports large enough to fit them through. My H16 has the styrofoam blocks between the pylons, but with my 6' access ports, I could add a load of empty 2 litre soda bottles to the hull if I wanted the extra displacement. Downside--I guess they would float away if the hull was severely breached.

Mark Owens
1976 H16 sail # 19857
Posted By: Greg

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/20/03 03:03 PM

Kevin,
I considered using my canoe floatation bags, but the glass doesn't look too friendly inside my H16. I am afraid that upon inflation it be punctured by the irregularities of the glass inside the hull. What do you think?
Greg,
H16, H14
Posted By: Kevin Rose

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/20/03 03:21 PM

Quote
Kevin,
I considered using my canoe floatation bags, but the glass doesn't look too friendly inside my H16. I am afraid that upon inflation it be punctured by the irregularities of the glass inside the hull. What do you think?
Greg,
H16, H14


That can be a problem. A solution (aside from sanding down the rough bits) would be to only partially inflate the bag so that it isn't held with air pressure against the inside of the hull.
Posted By: phill

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/20/03 11:30 PM

Greg
Another option that could be less expensive would be the bladders from casks of wine. They weigh 50 grams each and displace 4 litres or 4kg of water and they are quite durable.
The hard part is finding cask wine that is to your liking.

Regards,
Phill
Posted By: Kevin Rose

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/21/03 12:16 AM

Quote
Greg
Another option that could be less expensive would be the bladders from casks of wine. They weigh 50 grams each and displace 4 litres or 4kg of water and they are quite durable.
The hard part is finding cask wine that is to your liking.

Regards,
Phill


Only problem there is you'd have to drink an awful lot of wine to come up with the flotation available in a couple of canoe/kayak float bags
Posted By: Wouter

And for you that is a problem ? - 04/21/03 07:23 AM


It's a joke !

Wouter
Posted By: Greg

Re: Do you know for sure your boat won't sink? - 04/27/03 02:36 PM

Kevin,
Quote
That can be a problem. A solution (aside from sanding down the rough bits) would be to only partially inflate the bag so that it isn't held with air pressure against the inside of the hull.

I am afraid that even with partially inflated floatation that if a leak occurs, once the hull is full of water pressure will be exerted on the bag.
Greg (pessimist)
H14,H16
Posted By: Luiz

Fill the hulls with empty plastic bottles - 04/28/03 03:37 PM

Mary,

This idea is so simple that chances are that someone already wrote about it here (and elsewhere) - please forgive me if this is the case.

It is also not original, not fancy and not the lightest setup - but it works.

For additional safety, tie the bottles neck to neck beforehands. Tying will hold them together, so they aren't lost if the hull is cut in half. And, should it happen, the string of bottles makes for a good flotation aid.

I also learned the following in the discussion site br.groups.yahoo.com/group/altomar/messages (not in English):

The empty bottles are tough because they were designed to take relatively high internal pressures. Participants reported on pets being used as fenders (without cover) and mooring buoys as well.

When higher internal pressure is desired, they put them into the freezer before closing the lid. The cold air then expands, increasing the pressure. Depending on where you are, just leave them outside at night and close the lid in the morning.

Take care!
Posted By: Keith

Re: Fill the hulls with empty plastic bottles - 04/28/03 04:13 PM

Quote
Participants reported on pets being used as fenders (without cover) and mooring buoys as well.


Should I use my Golden Retriever or one of my cats?

I know, I know, I just couldn't resist...
Posted By: MauganN20

Re: Fill the hulls with empty plastic bottles - 04/28/03 04:29 PM

the only thing my dogs do on my boat is eat jellyfish.
Posted By: Wouter

Hey Keith ! - 04/28/03 05:03 PM



Its blond and smart, what is it ?


Wouter
Posted By: Luiz

Re: Fill the hulls with empty plastic bottles - 04/28/03 08:54 PM

Quote
Should I use my Golden Retriever or one of my cats?
I know, I know, I just couldn't resist...


Ecological safe sailing aid:

[color:"red"]"Recycle - freeze your pet - make your boat safer" [/color]

answering your question: I guess cats suit cats better.
For monos, use monkeys.
Posted By: Lane

Raising a sunken cat - 05/09/03 07:55 PM

Once sunk.. If it sinks during the test.. consider making a custom portal attachment and use a CO2 fire extinguisher to force the water back out of the hull. It won't take much to get it back to the surface.
Posted By: flounder

Re: Raising a sunken cat - 05/09/03 09:53 PM

If my boat is damaged that bad... I say let it sink. Screw it and buy another one.
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