Interested in older Tornado...

I've found a "late 70's era fiberglass" tornado for sale that is well within my price range and I've got a few ?'s for the Tornado sailors amongst us.

1) I'm guessing that this thing has the "old rig." What does this imply? Is the main sail shape different? If I were to want to upgrade to the "new" rig, what would it cost me? How about the helm systems?

2) The boat comes with a trailer, albeit non-tilt. Is it possible to trailer it assembled down the road like this?

3) Under mainsail alone, would it be possible to singlehand this boat?

4) Is there anywhere online I could find a spec sheet for line lengths for the tornado? (like the NAHCA site for hobies?)

I realize that I'd have to spend a lot to get this boat up to date, but I've done it with one boat already, and the money leftover from selling mine could more than pay for the parts to get this other one on the water.

1. The old rig is a larger jib that sheets back on the tramp, a pinhead main and single trap. The new rig is a smaller self-tacking jib, a larger square head main, double trap with a spinnaker.

2. T-boat=10ft beam, road legal width=8.5ft. Depends on how many tickets you are willing to pay and how many mailboxes you want to take out.

3. I'm sure you could single hand it, but it depends on the wind strength.

4. The T is a very open design as far as the deck layout goes. They are as individual as the sailors on board. I doubt that you will find a page that lists line lengths. Imagine that you will have to strip 95% of the deck hardware off, relocate all of it with mostly new hardware. Given the age of the boat, I would suspect that all of the standing and running rigging will have to be replaced. I would think that you will spend more on rigging than you would on the boat. Rough estimate, 3k for sails (1000 for spi, 1200 for main, 4-500 for jib, 3-400 for battens). I couldn't comment on standing rigging, but I know Dynaform wire is more expensive than standard 1x19 wire. Couple of hundred bucks for a spi pole, ~260 for four spi blocks, ~350 for main blocks. Thats before you get all the little 10 dollar blocks for all the control lines. Then the lines themselves. Possibly/probably need a new tramp. What condition are the boards and rudders in? I think there is at least 200 dollars in just the self tacking track and 500 in the mid-pole (Guck) snuffer.

Does the mast have diamond wires on it? Who made it (mast and hulls)?

If you want to go handicap racing, the T is not a really good boat to do that with. Since so many great sailors sail that boat, the PN has been driven down to the point where you have to be as good as they are to sail the number. If you want to race one-design, a 1970's boat will not be competitive.

Not to sound so down on the idea, but it's a very involved process to convert a boat over. Knowing where to place blocks and why takes a lot of experience. I helped convert a T-boat last year and learned quite a bit in the process. I'd love to have a T, they sail so well, but the pains of owning one and being competitive. There are much less costly and demanding boats out there with great one design racing. I would also consider that there would be very little market for a 70's set of hulls with a new rig on it.

my 0.02

Will R

Maugan,
As far as the trailer, a tilt trailer can be very scary to tow, and the only alternative is take the boat apart and put it together every time you sail -- a very time-consuming process.

Thank you for the input.

The hulls and boards are said to be in good condition... I'm currently waiting to get pictures so I can determine if it is worth it. It comes with a "like new" sail and an older sail. Not sure on the age of the blocks and rigging, but I'll be sure to ask. Basically, the spinnaker can wait... I'm honestly just looking for a project boat that will get me to the beach before my buddy Robert I don't race often, and never in class, but I am interested in doing some distance races. After I sell my boat and buy this one, I'll have about $1500 with which to replace all the things that need replacing. I don't need a self-tacking jib (I've got to give something to my gf to do) and I'm figuring on refinishing the hulls as I did with my 17.

Basically the hulls, boards, tramp, mast and beams and sails don't need replacing, but figure that I'll need to get it in running order and replace most everything... it sounds like an economical way for me to step up to something more powerful, faster, and more fun.

I'd buy a H-20, N6.0 or a I-20 if that is what you are looking to do. The initial purchase cost would be a bit higher, but there would be next to nothing to buy. Not to mention how much easier it would be to move. It takes quite a while to put the boat together and take it apart. Figure an additional 1.5 hrs of assembly and 1 hr of tear down.

If you get one of the other platforms, you can go race if you want and possibly upgrade to a F-20 boat if the class ever gets started. You say you don't race now, but it's addictive. I'd go get a ride on a H-20 or 6.0 some time, they are both great sailing boats with plenty of good boats on the market at a reasonable price.

W R

Well the thing about that is I have two weird little issues, some would call it personality defects...

1) I like sailing something unique. I haven't seen a tornado in NC... ever.

2) I enjoy working on boats as much as I do sailing them. I can't tell you the amount of joy that refinishing my H17 brought me. Call me crazy... I probably am.

Another thing about the trailer. He says that it can be easily converted to a tilt. That would probably be the first thing I'd do.

Check out Darren Bundock's T site.
They built a simple tilt trailer for their T that they just fool around with in Australia. The key is the axel wheel base which must be much wider then a standard beach cat trailer (a power boat trailer is a good platform to start with).

All I can say is... if you like working on boats... then a tornado is the boat for you. It turns out that there is always a better way to do something on the boat and so you are never short of projects.

The biggest drawback to a recreation sailing a T cat are the centerboard gaskets. You shouldn't simply beach the boat for lunch. The sand will chew up your gaskets and require freqeuent PIA changes. Now, if you don't race... you can probably go for a while on trashed gaskets and when the water swooshing up the centerboard trunk bothers you, its time for some maintenance. The biggest plus is that of all the 20 footers out there... the classic T is the best boat for a big breeze and can be sailed with your girl friend comfortably. I would not consider the boat if you must build and take it apart for every sail. If you join a club and can leave the boat together they are great boats.

Jill Nickerson of Fun in the Sun is the Tornado dealer/ expert and Greg Scace has been in the class for ever and can fill you in on the older boats.

Mark: Just found out 5 minutes ago that I might be moving into the DC area. In which case, are there clubs where I could leave it around there?

And, Maugan, if you talk to Greg Scace, ask him about the unique tilt trailer he designed.

Maugan,
Rick owned four different Tornadoes from the late '60's to the late '70's. One was wood and the other three were fiberglass. He can't remember the numbers, but I just thought, gee, maybe the boat you are looking at used to be one of Rick's.

Actually only three of them might still be around. One of them he had named "Tension," and I guess it lived up to its name because it jumped off the trailer on a freeway and self-destructed.

this one is located in texas.

I still haven't heard back from the owner though.. so I'm beginning to think this is either a phantom sale, or he's already sold it

Tadd,

I ran across a '93 TheMightyHobie18 here in Norfolk last week that needed nothing. I may still have the guys #. send me a note off line if you want any details.

Mike

Thanks for the offer, but I'm really looking for something in the 20+ foot range.

Go 6.0. The bad boys of cats (and you can trailer it in one piece). Then get ready for all the people make fun of how small you are.

well the guy sold the tornado today.. apparently the new owner drove off with it 2 hours ago

but it wasn't me.

Jake, can't afford the 6.0 right now.

I think if I go 20, it'll be an inter.

The N6.0na is the best deal by far for a 20 footer. Go for a ride and you won't look back. There should be quite a few used ones around.

I'm gonna get a ride I hope this weekend on Jake's.... hopefully the wind will cooperate

Hi
Too bad it didn't work out. I'll save my raving about the Tornado for later I guess.
OK I'll use the joke anyway:
New sails: $1200
New tramp $500
Look on the face of the Hobie sailors you just blew by like they were standing still: Priceless

Al

One thing also for anyone to consider when looking at an older tornado is the rig. The masts were changed in the late 80's to prebend masts. before then the rigs were not prebend and if you put a modern sail on one, it could break. The beams also got upsized around the same time. Makes a difference in platform stiffness. other than that, I agree with Mark. Great boat, nice and stable. I sail it with the classic sail plan and my girlfriend (with little sailing background) easily crews for me.

Take Care.

If you are interested in a Tornado I can try to put you in touch with a couple of people who had Tornado's for sale in your price range. Boats like this are not advertised anymore, these may be gone but there are others. One was a Reg White on a tilt trailer the other a Holt (Gougeon) wooden boat, I don't know about the trailer.

There are also Marstroms available, on tilt trailers they will run $11,000 to $15,000. This is probably outside your price range.

Most of these boats are in Texas. There are similar boats in the DC area. Get in touch with the active sailors ( the ones who interact with other sailors) they probably know of some.

If you want unique, the Holt may be a better boat. The wooden boats, as long as they have been stored properly and not abused, are more repairable than the older fiberglass boats. (Look at the pictures of how wooden boats are built, you could repeat any of those steps if required) The wooden boats take small dings a little better (more resistant to dints) and varnished boats look like fine furniture. Don't take the nonskid off the deck. A freshly varnished and waxed wet deck is slippery. You will look like a cat on ice until you fall off the boat

As far as trailers are concerned. You rig and launch a Tornado on it's beach wheels (there are a few exceptions). For trips over 150 miles, on a tilt trailer, it's much better to take the tramp off. So for regattas there is not a huge difference between tilt and non tilt trailers. For going to the beach, the tilt trailer wins hands down. In terms of rig time, it is comparable to the H20.

Tilt trailers need a 8-8.5 ft wheel width. They also need weight down low to stabilize them in crosswinds. A really good trailer will skitter sideways, instead of flipping in a cross wind. I have seen 4 types of tilt trailers:

1) Scary homebuilt trailers. (one day these are going to flip, drop the boat on you or explode when you try to tilt them)
2) Built from Class Association plans (OK depending state of repair and quality of craftsmanship)
3) Professional built (HEAVY mothers (1000-1500 lbs) can carry one boat tilted or 3 broken down, will survive higher cross winds and can be used as a light duty fork lift)
4) Exotic - Range from the better idea to the personal dream and from the awesome to the why?
(Note: if you replace the 1/4" valve with a 1" valve, the pressurized reservoir tilt systems can be used as a catapult. This is fun if you are throwing people into the water, not much fun if you are tilting your boat. The only excuse I have ever heard for this episode was "it seemed like a lot better idea before we sobered up" (names withheld due to threats of violence))

As far as sailing, the Tornado is a great boat. The classic rig is one of the few fast boats suitable for couples. The new rig needs 2 ~180 Lbm men working hard on the wire. These boats are awkward on land but make up for it on the water I have not found a nicer sailing or faster boat once you get to trap conditions. There are a lot of used sails available. It is possible to have a Tornado, with a spinnaker for distance sailing a new rig square top main for light wind days and a classic rig for high wind days. You can mix and match.

Tornado's are not surf boats. If you break a rudder, you will cry. They are expensive. This brings up another point. The cost of repairs is proportional to the original cost. These were expensive boats. There are a lot of used parts available but one day you will have to buy a new part that can cost twice what an old boat did. This why a lot of old Tornado are just left to die.

From what you are telling me, this boat is perfect for me. I have no problems with the rigging time, it just means I need to leave the house earlier. I would prefer a fiberglass boat just because I know how to work with glass... wood boats I'm not so sure about (although, my good friend makes wood boats from scratch). I'm going to go ahead and wait until I get situated in my nice new job before I lay down some doh for a new boat. Perhaps I could afford a new Marstrom sooner than I thought. As far as the parts are concerned, I'm getting pretty damn good at Fiberglass and CF fabrication, and I'd be more than willing to try my hand at some parts for my own boat to save money.

Thanks for all the info!

Somewhere in this thread, I thought I read you were coming to the Washington D.C area. If you are, come check out the West River Catamaran Racing Association (WRCRA). We race every Tuesday night, rain or shine for 26 weeks throught the late spring to early fall and then have a fall frosbite on Sunday for 5 or so weeks. We also co-sponsor a few medium distances races with CRAC. Our website is www.wrcra.org.

There is also Hobie Fleet 196 in D.C. They frequently join us for special events sponsered by CRAC and WRCRA. www.hobiefleet196.org/

Also, there is CRAC which sponsors a full calander of long distance and bouy races. A great accomplishment of late is they have negotiated a beach cat start in a distance race that has been for monohul and large cats. www.geocities.com/sailcrac/

For what it is worth to all of you classic Tornado fans, I have one 1996 Hyde mainsail that was used three times under my bed (it is mint) and a 1998 Ullman Tornado jib that was used in one race. I had four mains and five jibs for the old rig when the class switched and have sold all except for these two. If you are interested in these sails, please contact me at [email]bobh79@bellsouth.net.[/email]

Bob Hodges

buy a classified ad man

Hi,

I've sailed Tornado all my 38 years of age...my Dad used to run the factory in Montreal in the 1970's. I've only ever sailed older boats, even back then! Right now I have an 82 SailCraft of Canada boat with 1971 sails! Actually I just got a set of nearly new sails, but they are cut for the prebend rig. I need to change the diamond hounds & spreader arms over the to modern setup in order to prebend my mast.

Don't let the nasayer's put you off...I'm a living example of tornado ownership on the cheap! Just avoid going to Marstorm for any parts, do your own repairs and a little fabricating here & there and you'll be fine.

Mike

The Tornado is far and away the best boat I have ever sailed..... smooth, stable and very refined not to mention FAST.

I am only fairly new to the Tornado and am currently racing a 15 year old Reg White with a brand new Marstrom mast complemented with new Olympic Sails (as used by Bundy and Forbes), Masrtrom Rudders and rear beam, plus Fredrickson front beam.

This boat set me back AUS$5500 (more realistic price would be about AUS$7000) and spent about AUS$6500 on the new rig conversion. (3 sails, spi pole and fittings/sheets)

The boat has served my needs for the last few seasons and at the last State titles our old dinosaure was peppering Bundy and Forbes in most races on their 10 year old Marstrom. The champs won every race but in most of the races the old Reggy snapped at the heels of the Marstrom, finishing seconds away. PS - Bundy and Forbes have spent a cosiderable amout of time with the Australian T sailors bringing their boats and crew up to speed. Big THANKS guys

Another season or two on the Reggy and we will upgrade to a late modle Marstrom. Whilst an older boat is still great for local racing the Marstrom boats a alot quicker and a far better quality off build.

We should be toying around with the F-18s a fair bit next season, building bigger fleet experience before sailing in Europe, but the Tornado will remain my number one boat.

Hi again,
As far as single-handing with main only, I went out saturday for the first time in light but gusty wind and had no problems at all. I was concerned about weather helm and tacking, but neither was an issue.
For an encore sunday with a steadier breeze, I went solo with main and jib (classic rig 1991 Reg White). What a riot!! This boat is so smooth, you can fly a hull close hauled forever. As far as speed, there were a couple of overloaded (3 people) Hobie 18's out match racing, and the difference in speed is so great it's like you're not even participating in the same sport.
The only problems I've had relate to a broken Frederickson traveler car. We originally ordered a replacement, but the ball bearings were on back-order (coming from Norway?!). I eventually ordered a Harken traveller, but it was 3 mm to large to fit in the in-laid track in the beam, so I subsequently ordered and installed a new Harken track on the beam. The point of this just to illustrate that you can run into unexpected troubles with a boat that's no longer being manufactured.
Having said that, you wouldn't be disappointed with the Tornado.
Al

You can order Frederickson parts directly. This is for broken or replacment parts. Your best bet is to fax customer service with your email address. Once you set up a dialog, it gets easier. There are also a couple of small shops in Denmark, England, and France that take internet orders. These are cheaper if they have the part you need in stock. For small parts shipped to USA it costs $1-$10 and you will get them in a couple of days. Customs has not been a problem. Once they charged me ~$1 and I paid at the post office.

Thanks Carl, unfortunately, I had the problem before I discovered the wealth of information on this site, so I was left to my own devices (and no sailing shop for hundreds of miles). Now that you mention it, it was Denmark. If I break anything else, this will be the first place I check, including Rick's online store of course.
Al

If you have ANY Frederickson parts you want to get rid of let me know. I am always interested in spares. One of the hottest parts is the plastic thing you use to take the travelor off with. Marstrom A's use the same system and we are sharing one here.

If you have something like that let people know. Last years Olympic technology is great for me and my old jib halyard lock was just what a Gougeon Tornado looking for.

I have soft rig sails cheap, to keep old Tornado's on the water. But not to chop up H17 squaretops.

Just had a guy contact me about an old Glass Tornado. Two years ago I was asking about finding plans for one and this fellow just today ran across my name.

The boat is complete, but "may" need new beams and Mast judging from his description and my personal experience with a Tornado of that age. Are inexpensive used beams and masts floating around?

This offer may be too good to pass up (it's close by and cheap...LOL)...the boat is from the early seventies built by " Zygal Boats, St. Peters Road, Whitstable Kent, England" anyone know about the quality of this builder? Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.

Bob

MauganH17 -

I have an older Tornado here in Greensboro (definitely needs work) if you're interested in taking a look.

Bernie Smith

Hi Bernie,
Sounds like you finally acquired an older Tornado…but I don’t hear (read) of the enthusiasm that had when you started this post a while back…. Did the dream turn into a nightmare? I would love to have a Tornado but finding an old beater and fixing it up is beginning to look less and less inviting. I would like to hear your opinion on the matter now that you have the first hand experience. I have made no commitment to purchase the boat I have found at this point…and I am leaning towards not getting involved in another project of this expense, both time and money. Is it worth it? Have parts been expensive and hard to come by? How available are old cross beams and Masts?

Bob

Bob - I bought an older Tornado in 1987 and (more or less) refinished it and updated it to the then current specifications (prebent mast). The boat which I mentioned for sale is a second Tornado which I purchased for spare parts with an eye toward restoring it also - but lack of time interferes. I have thoroughly enjoyed the first boat when I have had it on the water - even with the extensive setup time.

Bernie…
Have you ever heard anything about Tornado’s built by Zygal Boats? I had one response on the old forum that warned against buying from this builder…I am looking for a second opinion to either confirm or deny Jay’s warning before writing it off.

Bob

Howdee:

Guess I better say "Hi" and give you my phone number so we can talk about Tcats.

301 208 0828 home
301 975 2626 work
240 876 9510 mobile

There ya go. Call me and I'll rant about Tornadoes as long as you wanna.

-Greg

Concerning Tornado crossbeams;
Most Tornado's are built as a deck. The hulls and the crossbeams are all clamped up in a jig so the hulls are aligned and then the crossbeams and hulls are drilled for the bolts. So a different set of beams will probably misalign the hulls and might not even fit. The easiest thing to do is buy extrusions and match drill to the old beams.

It looks to me like your best bet is a Prindle 19. The 8.5' beam allows you to easily trailer it without standing it on its' ear. You should be able to get an older model which will satisfy your boat rejuvenation hobby. In addition, you can purchase the new MX sails and the new rudders with the money from the sale of your older boat. They greatly improve the performance of this boat. You'll notice that the Portsmith numbers are fairly close to that of the older style of Tornado with one trap and no spinnaker. You won't be sorry.

I figure I'll chime in my "Almost had a T" experience just for kicks.

I'd sold my H16 and was looking for a new, bigger, faster boat. There was a Tornado in sailing condition in St. Pete, sitting on the owner's lawn right by the beach. The ad said $1000 takes it away so I called and said I would check it out Saturday. I didn't have a car yet (I was 16) so my dad had to drive me. That Saturday he didn't feel like going and told me we'd go Sunday instead. "It'll still be there tomorrow" was his 'sage advice'. I called Sunday morning to let them know we were headed up and... no boat. They'd sold it Saturday night.

He ended up missing his favorite two football teams play each other a few Sundays later to drive me up to Dunedin to check out the G-Cat 5.7M, which I ended up buying. I wasn't going to accept his "It'll still be there tomorrow" excuse any more!