H17 vs. J24

Ok, on another sailing forum, one of my j24 friends was told that he needs to get a beachcat because he prefers a boat that is "fast, trailerable, and non-cruising (needs no head, berth, etc)" Someone mentioned a Beachcat, and of course he's like "well my j24 could hand a beachcat its butt on w/l course." I, and some others begged to differ. I've run circles around the schock35 I crew for on my little 17, and I'm willing to bet that on a w/l course, I wouldn't win by a landslide, but decisively nonetheless. Throw in a reaching leg, and its game over for my buddy.

What I want to know is has anyone really sailed against a longer waterline mono head to head on a beercan race?

Doesn't seem feasible considering we're on portsmouth and they are on PHRF, but I've got this curiosity bug as you all know

I watched an I-20 beat several Maxis and Sleds (70-82ft+), boat for boat around w/l courses in the Caribbean during 2000. I was sailing at the Heineken Regatta and the Rolex during that season, on a maxi-sled. The I-20 was the sole spinnaker boat in the beach cat class and the cats started AFTER the Maxis/Sleds!

The name of the I-20 was Southern Utilites, I think. Anyway,it sailed higher nad faster upwind that the giant monos. So,cats do "smoke" monohulls around the cans!

OFFSHORE CLASSES USSA D-PN WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
*************************** CODE 0-1 2-3 4 5-9
Hobie 17 (1-up) H17 74.0 78.5 76.2 73.7 69.5
J/24 (Int.) J-24 81.0 83.3 81.9 80.4 78.2

I dont know about you, but a crew of 5 on a lead lugging slug vs. one poor devil on a wire when the wind is blowing sounds like a poor matchup.

I'll take the 17 as long as it's not blowing stink and the water is relatively flat.

Sleds don't point, they reach. Waterline, waterline, waterline. At leat that is the case with the GL-70's here on the great lakes.

we had a race Memorial Day beachcats,tris and monohulls...a buddy on a I20(non-spin),,,started last,,,,waited 10 min for one of the other beachcats that had flipped right after the start,,,finished the race 45 min ahead of the monos and the tris that were flying chutes.....I dont know what your j24 buddys been smokin but there aint no way a j can beat a beachcat

Maugan, I don't know about beercan races, but I do seem to recall something about an America's Cup....

Here's a nice report about a beachcat entering the St. Helena Cup event 13 okt 2002 which is almost exclusively a mono event with some big boats and two big trimarans.

http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/Report_2003_okt_13_Australia_St_Helena_Cup.html

Personally I can't tell you about H17 vs J24 but I do know that I recently sailed an exclusive upwind course against two mono's of about 7 to 9 mtr length (22 to 30 feet).

They pointed higher no doubt about that and they made 2 tacks where I had to make 3 but I clearly overtook them on speed and sailed past them by the same they were leading me at first in about 90 minutes. I think they were leading me by some 6 kilometers. It was during a small trip up and down the Dutch coastline I made a few weeks back. I was single handing a 1975 Prindle 16 with jib and was just trapezing in sizeable but not violant chop. I was definately steering over the waves to minimize the waves hitting the lip on my hulls.

I once sailed against a very modern 12-18 mtr yacht and that baby was really hard to catch upwind on the same P16 but then doublehanded in less wind.

I think that you can distinquise two stages. 1 is where the mono hasn't reached its hull speed yet. Here the cats have a much harder time upwind and downwind. Stage 2 is where the mono has reached it theoretical hull speed and can't go faster will the cat can. Here you'll smoke them hands down.

Wouter

And that is no old monoslug. Its crew have done several Sidney to Hobart races and can be expected to outpace a J24 I think.

Wouter

Wouter is right in my opinion.

We are mostly sailing our Tornado in mixed fleets. When it is below 3 m/s we usually struggle to keep up while beating on a w/l course. With the kite up, we usually gain on them.

When the wind pick up, and we can begin to use the trapeezes.. Well, they see us at the start and at the prizegivings.

This is boat for boat. If you sail on handicap, they has to be limited by hull speed for you to come out on top.
But, if the wind drops while sailing and they begin to sail below hull speed, you loose time to them very fast!

Pick a windy day, and you can demoralize them boat for boat, while beating them on handicap as well.

This boat is not sailed by David by Daniel van Kerckhof at the Koh Samui International regatta in Thailand last may 2003. The F16's took 1st ans 2nd in the open cat class.

A you can see from the pics their were some big mono's there !

man don't that cat look small in comparion

Just posting this pic because it looks nice and Dan did overtake these pinnacle of the mono class boats.

Wouter

The I-20 I descibed at the 1999 Heineken Regatta was sailed by WF Oliver and Robert Jennette, according to the old results that I located. Maybe they can give us their take?

Random blather and non-scientific observations:
Common misconception around the mono circles is that cats are ineffective upwind. For anecdotal evidence, I've kept up with a J-24 upwind on my old Hobie-14 - couldn't catch him but he wasn't getting away either. That was in about 15 kts in a decent chop. I ate a Tartan T-10 upwind on my Hobie-18 (singlehanding) in about 12, this after he luffed me up to make the point that I couldn't point like him - pinching I equalled his speed, when I dumped behind him and cracked off a few degrees I was gone (still close hauled), making it to the middle of the Bay before he cleared the River.

But, most mono sailors base their version of the truth on experiences long ago on boardless boats that weren't tuned or sailed effectively. They don't know the what can be achieved on cats with boards and modern designs. If the guy wants a single hand cat that can eat up his J-24 on an W/L course, maybe he should get an A-Cat...

More anecdotal un-scientific stuff:
Last year in the Annapolis to Oxford race, beachcats were an unofficial class. They started further away than the mono start, and Mark Schnieder on his Tornado sailed through their starting line some 20 minutes after them, and finished boat-for-boat ahead of all the monos including all the large fast racing boats. This on an upwind dominated day. This year we have an official start, although they are making us carry anchors and running lights. Should be interesting!

Yet more anecdotal un-scientific extraneous stuff:
On the first day in this year's C-100 we came upon a couple of large monos slogging upwind in the heavy stuff like us, also heading to Solomon's Island. They were pointing higher, we (Hobie-20) were going much faster. We did a few more tacks than them, but we got to Solomons first. In the Tiki Bar later, some of the mono guys wanted to know what "this catamaran thing is all about, you guys just go pwing this way and pwing that way while we just point straight ahead". I asked him if it mattered given that we still got to the bars first. No answer. Then it was pointed out that they could carry beer. I pointed out that we had plenty of stowage for beer, and we could ice it too. Then it was pointed out that they had 10 women on board (all hiking on the rail). He had a point, I only had my crew who definitely is one man and not 10 women. So I asked him how many of those women went home with him. Turns out he went home with the same number of women from his crew that I went home with from mine - 0. The final question from another cat sailor was, "why would guys want to work so hard to go so slow?" Final answer - "we still beat the multis on handicap". Ah, buy your handicapper a drink the next you see him...

Keith: thats pretty funny.

My intention wasn't to incite another mono/multi flame war, I was just curious as to how they relate because of the increased waterline.

I might greet you guys for the end of the Annapolis / Oxford race. My grandparents' house is on Bachelor's Point which is opposite the spider buoy that marks the confluence of the Choptank and Tred Avon. The TAYC is where I learned to sail.

I had actually meant to write something useful and inciteful, but in the end the humor of that story won out. It was all in good fun with some Mai-Tais in the belly anyway! Hopefully no monohuller's feeling were hurt in the making of that post...

Instead of greeting us at the end of the Annapolis-Oxford race, why not go one better and join in? You can still greet us at the end! Of course, now that we know you have a home-base there, you might end up with a bunch of cat-sailors crashing your Grandparent's place! Check out www.sailcrac.com for details...

Keith: Not much place at the grandparents' place... my uncle's family is in the process of relocating to the area and moved in with them for a few months. Sorry

As for my entry, I was looking over the necessary accoutrements, and theres no way on earth I could fit all that jazz on a lowly H17 and not be sinking. Anchor w/ rode? Where!?!

I have a little fold-up anchor in my desk drawer that is 6 inches long and weighs 1.8 lbs. It doesn't take much to hold a Hobie 17. And you don't need a heavy line, either. Something like that is good to have on your boat all the time, just in case of a whole variety of situations. The reason it is in my desk drawer is that I know eventually somebody in the family is going to be in a bind at the last minute and need an anchor for a distance race. I like to be able to say, "I have it!"

can not talk for the h 17 vs the j 24, but my big modified tomcat 6.2 took the doors off a hotshot j80 often in the beer can races.

Mary, maybe I could get by with a sea anchor.

I don't know, theres alot of other stuff on there like running lights... and I don't even have a GPS

Before they "frowned" me out of their beercan races, I used to take the local fleet to task with my boat (I-20). It was a staggard start, with the highest handicap boats starting first, and so on. We were the last to start (had to wait 38 minutes on the 3 mile course), behind 2 J-24s and a J-105 with full complement of sails/crew.

Truth be told, it would probably be harder than it is if their skippers would not pinch so bad. Yes, monos CAN point higher, but most people pinch so bad, they kill themselves going straight for A.

And as we've read above, pointing OR reaching in any moderate wind (over 8 kts) need not be discussed (other than stories of whizzing past all of those crewmembers in their matching outfits on the windward rail).

The skippers I've talked to are not thrilled with beachcats because: (1) they are wet and wild (these people are relatively older) (2) it is hard to find crew, much less crew that can take the physical abuse of hard catsailing, (3) size matters - the bigger the boat, the bigger the respect at the yacht club, (4) they can't take the whole family out for a day on the boat if it's a H-16 (of course, they're not out racing with their whole family, are they?), (5) "Go with what you know" mentality. We all grew up with Sunfish, Flying Scotts, Lasers, etc. When you say "Sailboat race", most think that way. When you say "Beachcat", people think Hobie Getaway rentals tooling around near shore.

Now, having said all of that, the local fleet is seeing quite a surge in trimaran boats. I guess this is the best compromise for them between the leaners and cats.

I can't wait to make my first "big boat" purchase. I think I've had it narrowed down for a while, but I always want to see what else is on the horizon, especially some of these new 40'ers from France with the twin rig.

However, I can just hear the groans when I'd show up to the line in that thing.

**** and is almost evangelical about the J/24.

My two cents of anecdotal experience...

Taipan 4.9, cat rigged, solo sailed with 17 sq. meter chute vs. fully crewed, regionally competetive Melges 24.

Wind 10-12 knots, flat water.

On a half mile or so windward leg, I was pointing about 7 degrees lower than he was and had a 200 yard lead by the top mark. By the look on his face and the way he invited me to see how I did going downwind, I'd say he was trying. On the down windleg, I was running 175 degrees true and 85 degrees apparent. He gave up before we got to the bottom mark. Surprisingly, he's still my friend.

I race J/24s too and the tactics and one-design fleet size make them fun to race, but boat to boat....no chance.

Jeff.

Yeah its Bash

shhhh don't tell him though... :P

Hi,Maughn

The running lights are solved by getting one made for inflatables. Cost 18 bucks. Duct tape it to your bow and you will only need it if there is NO wind.

Anchor is available at west. 5 lbs. Rhode will double as tow line = 100 feet of anything. Stow it in the hull through the hatch cover.

Compass, Davis hand held will do 20 bucks.
Charts, Waterproof chart of the area = 19 bucks.

Cell phone or marine radio... (radio is superior)

The scuttlebutt in Annapolis is that we are on double secret probation this year. I am encouraging everyone to make sure they meet the required equipment rule, sail clean and be on time for the start. (or I will personally kill them!)

PS, the J22's asked for a start and the anchor and running light requirement was placed on both the J22's and the beachcats.

Take Care
Mark

We'll see. I'm still not super-thrilled about racing alone across the bay by my lonesome. If the wind dies out (as it's prone to do on the bay), I'd be bobbing there for hours, in the dark, alone

That's the beauty of this race... the monohulls will not miss the party... they are likely to quit long before you... stand up... put out your thumb and catch a ride to the beach with any monohull who has surrendered.

I think you almost have me convinced. I might be able to buy a used Garmin off my co-worker for cheap.

Which brings me to this question. How do you navigate while on the wire, flying a hull.... solo?

I have a dry bag (like the one's here on catsailor) that has a lanyard string on it. I attach the lanyard to the shoulder strap on my PFD and put some sticky back velcro on the back of the dry bag. I secure the GPS with the velcro to the chest/shoulder of my life vest high but within easy reach. It rarely looses contact with the sky that way. The string helps in case I have an 'oh $hit' moment with the GPS in my hand or in case it gets knocked off the velcro.