What is the ideal beach cat design

Some of us prefer and sail 14 ft cats ,-some would prefer sailing the 120ft Playstation ,--most of us for many practical reasons are somewhere in between ,-categorized into typical beachcats that is generally a 16 18 or 20 ft length, with a few {super } exceptions .

What would be your ideal dream cat design and what features would it have ,-{other than auto refill refrigerated Labatt,s keg and tapper lead to camelpack or sippy helmet } .
In general specs of Length -Beam -W -Sail area and general features or improvements as standards you would like to see or hope to see developed for future cat design.

Here are my current thoughts on a dream cat design ,Prefer the 20 Length for its ability in seas to be pushed hard without pitchpoling but would also race an 18 or singlehand a 16 as a matter of practicality being physically larger.. Like the 8.5 beam for trailerability , but also did enjoy owning and sailing a cat with wings to extend crew weight and beam .-would like the design-construction aspects of the cat to be as light as possible consistant with strength of all componants ,-rig boards rudders hardware also able to handle surf and extreme conditions ,
Hulls should have positive floatation , crossbeams should be oval shaped with no flat sides to slam and pound waves -

Mast -C F and light ,-sections are really getting good --see some A-masts ,-spin-s are great with a snuff system -mid pole ,-sailplan could be larger than current 20s ,-larger wings would allow crew to handle the added main area and spin ,the added power would more than offset added wing weight -
Hulls and bows would then have to have more volume to handle the added sailarea ,-a planing shape becomes possible in a more canted configuration and more power to get on plane. Larger spin should be set further forward on a longer pole to help lift bows ,-the more luff angle the more lift ,-this potentially causes a lee helm problem with the spin up evan with raked aft mast ,--The solution to balance and planning may be a small molded in skeg or mini foil near the bows that may also help lift and increase area for planning aspects ,-the rudders may be larger than current practise and idealy be adjustable to assist CLR and helm balance also somewhat offsetting the forard molded in forward foils .

recap -more sail >more volume >planning capabilty >spin forward >more lift >forward molded foils >evan more lift and balance under forward spin .---{worth experimenting with}

Out on larger wings the crew requires a good -J line -or safety line system to keep them in place but easily releasable .
A good readable digital compass location molded in for the crew with countdown features and combined with a GPS ,-
{Garmin needs to work on this one }--
A storage cooler area would be nice and place for spares and tools .
Athetically on fast cats I like some color -slick graphics ,-and artwork on the sails .

This is my {wish list } for consideration of future cat design ,-We have so many good cat design types out there now ,-but one thing for certain is that they will continue to change .

-added note on future classes and the sport -
The A class developed to its hi tech state is a great one and has again experienced an increase in class and will continue well into the future mainly because it is allowed limited development.-B Class eventually became the Tornado selected for the Olympics with similar longevity due to excellent design and development over the years ,- Formula classes seem to be some of the largest currently with the most potential for similar longevity that create great interest and partisipation and have great appeal to a wide variety of sailors .A good single handed spin F-Class group is also needed beyond the 16 -18s and 20s in i-F and HT classsification in each Length category ,- Would like to see all cats fall within these basic categories for racing groups and an improved rating system to allow equal rating classification by equalizing in design formula the basics of sail area length weight and beam.-Current cats that require periodic refitting and new sails could then target the ideal size and configuration with mods and updates to race equally in each L category -with spin and non spin and also single handled handed spin and non in sub categories .Very important also are entry level cat design like waves -14s etc for new and experienced sailors alike to help them along and into the sport .
All cats have a rating ,and race ,-the concept is to target a max in L W SA category for preferred equal class racing ,-those over equal rating move up to the next level for start sequences.

Hope to see it all in the near future and know we will see many more than the 1000 to 2000 currently estimated racing
catsailors.
Really believe setting up a more desirable L W SA RATING class racing structure will help along with great new designs that are sure to keep being developed.-The numbers could easily be ten times current est. within the decade if set up promoted and marketed in the media and existing sailing organizations and with new events for all catsailing and future catsailing enthusiasts.
New cat design with -colorfull graphics and team artwork on sails flying off wave tops airborn with crews trapped out is a very appealing image , very marketable in this sports crazed country ,and just waiting for the right combination of good folks to make it happen .

Carl -
I-20
H-18 +spare platform
SC -15
sailboard
cayak w sail {sippy helmet optional}

My ideal beach cat already exists. It sits on a trailer a few miles south of me and gets broken out for the big regattas.

It is the G-Force 21 Grand Prix. 21' long and 11' wide with high-volume hulls and a really tall mast (owner has installed a mast taller than what the Tornados are running). It's got a nice new square-top main and roller-furling jib. I think a roller-furling reacher would be the perfect headsail for this boat in the common conditions for my area (fairly light winds in the summer). I would like to see a set of "wings" on it and 3 trapeze wires per side. A deck configuration that loses the deck-lip and increases bow volume would be nice, and is exactly what Hans did with the new G-Cat 5.0 Turbo.

Otherwise... I'd like to see a kevlar or carbon-fiber version of the Reynolds 21 Cat. Something like an 'expedition' boat that can hold some gear, get the crew out of the weather, and handle rough conditions. It should be light enough (when empty, at least) to be cat-tracked up the beach by two people.

I think an important factor is price (look at the interest the "Thoughts: Why there's no $3k (US$) "starter cat"" thread generated). If you want a carbon boat are you happy to pay carbon prices?

I would like a low maintenance, cheap, and robust boat, I would like to be able to take be able to take all breakable bits off easily, vandalism is getting to be a problem at our club. It needs to be sail and forget. Now I have young children I have a lot less time to sail, and I begrudge spending that time fixing the boat. There is no point in a fast boat if I don't get to use it!

It needs to be easy to setup and sail.

Conversely my ideal boat also needs to be the one all my buddies sail. At the moment thats my Hobie 16 which certainly does not meet the above criteria. Cheap to buy but expensive to maintain.

Gareth

My Ideal beach cat would firstly be one that I don't have to pay for. Then make me an all carbon Tornado.

Forget the 8.5 beam... Give me heaps of beam and a beach to store it on with the mast up. May be an old aircraft hanger on the beach so the boat can stay out of the weather with its sails up and not get blown over.

Come to think of it, give me a C Class and somewhere to store it.

Is this too unrealistic

Hi Gareth and all

Agree on the maintenence aspect ,-but boats are always needing care ,its part of racing and boating in general ,-finding a way to enjoy it ,--{and get lots of help } with others seems a key .
Seems that most like to race similar boats in a class group .

There is a waterbike on the lake locally here -
http://www.seacycle.biz/
thought you might be interesred in it
It uses the back 2 piece hull section ,-the back part acting as a rudder ,--a sail could easily be adapted to it ,
It makes a nice fishing platform also ideal for trolling -
its a no motors allowed lake ,---thank goodness .
Very different type of {ideal cat }design

Back to the ideal cat design -which is many different things to different people at different stages on development with different intent and goals in sailing .

An ultimate 20 RACING CAT with larger sailplan -spin forward w foils and planning capability able to handle the 1000 mile races is my ideal ,--but again very different from others ideal cat given different goals and experiences .-

I'm not so sure about the wings. I like sailing around the cans, and I can see a crowded starting line posing a problem if I had large wings and went bulldozing through!

I think the boat I have right now fits me well (I-20): Great around the cans, user friendly, doesn't kill the crew as badly as a 6.0 with huge spin does, sets up in a reasonable amount of time (but reasonable for me is WAY different than the H-16 guys), great in light/mod air and chop, points high, drives low, easy to set/snuff spin. If I were lighter, I'd probably switch to the I-18. Right now, I need muscle on the strings, so my crew usually tips the scale at 180 or so. That puts us at 360 or better, which is a bit heavy for the 18's.

Would I go uni? Perhaps. One advantage of my sloop rig is I can roll up the jib if things get breezy and I need to make it to shelter. Sure, on this boat, it only removes about 50 sq. ft, but sometimes, that just makes me feel better than having a big sail downhauled and flapping in the breeze. Battens get expensive, you know!

For distance, I think it works pretty well. I'm sure there would be many improvements for each discipline, but I guess this boat seems to be a good compromise...

Hi Jay

Ya ,like the I-20 also ,-have raced it in 3 Worrells and a Tybee ,Its come through all but one beach called Jensen ,with 3 broken rudders trying to get out through the surf ,not to mention a squashed team-mate -{see dave under boat pic }
think we are really missing the boat by not yet having a large Formula 2o CLASS Organization and the great larger group as the F-18s will soon have with N-F-18s -Tigers -Mysteres etc etc all to race in large groups ,and able to make improvements and modification as they choose within class specs. {like rudders} .
We need a major concensis from numerous interested 20 owners that will commit to it ,-Barry on the East Coast has the first F-20 fleet racing going ,--congrates , Any can start one just by concensis of 20 sailors in your area .
After the example of 18s this year it will become easier for many to understand and see the benifits of it .

Also raced the H-21 with wings ,-way back in Prosail events in 88,
They experimented and eliminated most rules so it was as you mentioned like {bulldozing through } or became more like the Chariot races of ancient Rome.
The Miami race was pretty funny with about 20 H-21s wings locked up around the first A mark set on a reach from the start ,--it did not last long after that for numerous reasons.
They -wings ,are really nice though once used to them .
effectively adding beam and get you up off the water and able to see better , a little dryer too ,-
A different type of larger wing is needed though to make them worth the added weight vs increase in sail area.
The I-20 with its flat large hull sections gets close to planning at times ,-believe a little more sail area power and a more forward angled larger spin would get up and plane and provide a good jump in speed ,that combined with forward foils canted features and other design aspects noted for the {ideal cat design} -Most fun when your doing those distance races ,have the kite up and the wind just keeps building and building through the day -
My ideal would be that next step in design to an ultimate planning type hull and more powerfull sailplan and more beam or wings to hold it down.
Some of my best memories are flying off the back of wavetops and surfing down the backs of big Atlantic swells ,spin up strapped in trapped off the stern ,having a great time as helm or crew.
That,s catsailing yeeeehaaa

the g-force 21' is the only highspeed beach cat witout boards,the boat belongs to brian stewart.why have boards if you dont need them????????

to me beach cats should be boardless. we have lots of beaches and bars here in coastal sc. ever tried sailing into a beach and have the board hang up as you are about to land? ever sailed a daggerboard boat across a sand bar at 20 kn? i'm curious about a rectangular section that might plane and be slab sided to go up without boards. anybody ever sail a planecat? i have been curious about that design,,, dan

Hello Carl-

You already know my answer but I will restate as follows: LOA 38ft, LWL 36', Beam 20 ft, high aspect daggerboards and kick up rudders, draft 3" boards up, 50'CF rotating spar, CF hulls, Aluminum beams, triple trap, 500 sqft for the main/jib [squaretop main], screecher 450sqft w/Fancor furler, code zero spin 1000 sqft on Fancor furler, 1250 sqft asymetric [flat] and forward triangle tramp. Total boat weight 1500lbs all up without crew. Tom Haberman/Bill Roberts designed/engineered/built of course. All sails by GMsails of Austrailia. If you want to see Gordon's work just look at Afterburner. What a difference those sails made for that boat.

If they build this boat I will buy one,

thommerrill
FMS 20 #57 - still being refinished by Don Caldwell
ARC22 #2234 - going back in the water this weekend
F25c 009- the other Farrier Kit boat

ps if anybody see's caldwell tell him to call Thom...

Carl,
A 20' boat with hulls that can handle it. Wings?,10 ft. wide......Mystere 6.0!

Mike

Hello Carl,
I would have responded sooner but my computer has had the 'worm blaster' lately. Just got it fixed today.
You are not aware but the hull you have described in your 'ideal cat' is the ARC21 with one foot removed from the transom. The tooling was designed so that this could be done in production. This puts the rear beam on the transom and the main beam 9ft forward of the transom. This places the weight of the rig further aft than any other 20ft boat. Also the hull is clean for trapezing all the way to the transom; no rear beam in the way. Both of these features maximize pitchpole resistance. The original SC product line was designed and developed on the SE coast of Florida. This is why these boats have the tallest hulls with the highest beams and the highest crown foredecks of any beach cat available. They were designed and developed to sail clean in the ocean in 3ft to 4ft chop.
Let's look at this wing comment for a minute: Everybody likes the way the Tornado sails in a strong breeze. The reason it excells here is that it has a high righting moment to sail area ratio. The sails can be driven hard on the Tornado when the narrow boats have to depower. Well let's put wings on the narrow boat and make it at least equal to the Tornado. The Tornado Sport has 24.3 ftlbs of righting moment per square foot of sail area. Now let's put about 300sqft of sail on our new narrow boat to power it up a little. We will let it weigh 400 pounds including everything. So the basic platform generates 400 pounds times 8.5ft/2 = 1700ftlbs of righting moment and that turns into 1700/300 = 5.67 ftlbs of righting moment per sqft of sail area. Now the 320 pound crew has to make up the remaining 18.63 ftlbs of righting moment per sqft of sail area to equal the Tornado Sport. What lever arm must the crew have to generate the required remaining righting moment? Ans: (Crew lever arm = 18.63 x 300/320 = 17.46 ft.) WOW, a 35 ft wide wing boat that is only 20 ft long. What do you think of that answer?
As for sailing in the surf: The ARC rudder head is the only modern beach cat rudder head that adequately supports the rudder blade when the blade is sailed through the surf in the partially down position. All of these new rudder head designs that have no framework aft of the pivot bolt cannot support the rudder in the partially down position because there is no support structure. 'You can't support something with nothing'. These are deep water start rudder head designs.
You mentioned you wanted a carbon mast. Marstrom makes a fine one for about $5,000.00 and you can rig it and paint it yourself.
As far as planing: You want a 20ft hull to plane while supporting 400 lbs plus 320 lbs = 720 lbs total. That is a hull loading of 36 lbs per ft of hull length. You also mentioned the A cat. The A cat hull is 18ft long and supports a 165 lb boat and 160 lb crew. This leads to a hull loading of 18 lbs per ft of hull length. If a hull loading of 18 can plane sometimes under very special conditions, then a hull loading of 36 just can't get there from here, can it? How about a 36ft long two person boat?
Spin pole lengths: The ARC product line has the longest spinnaker poles of any beach cat on the market.
You mentioned lee helm with the spinnaker up: Read about 'shared lift' on the Aquarius-Sail web site and note the forward centerboard position on these boats.
The ARC product line has got you covered on all aspects, Carl. Be sure and take a long hard look.
Good Sailing,
Bill

Hello Thom,
Thanks for your confidence comment on Tom Haberman and myself. The ideal boat you describe is very close to an RC30. The RC30 has a 45ft tall carbon mast and 550 sqft of working sail area. I have tried several different cut screechers but I am having faster success with spinnakers from one particular sailmaker. Also screechers are twice as heavy as spinnakers. Roller furling gear is really heavy!
As far as boat width goes, I have 5ft wide wings on each side of the 30 which brings the overall width up to 26ft with a 30ft LWL. The weight of the boat is 1000 pounds.
I do not understand your comment about Afterburner and GMsails. The boat was a winner in New Zealand before it came to the US. It has been a winner ever since it has been in the US. So, what is this big difference that GMsails has made. All sails get old and have to be replaced eventually.
The RC30 is a breakthrough design. It has a lower Portsmouth Number by US Sailing than an F40 and it costs 1/20th as much. The people that sail the boat can take it apart for trailering or put it together for sailing. It can be towed by a normal size automobile or a van. The F40 requires a crane for dismasting and loading the hulls onto a flat bed trailer. A tractor is required to tow the flat bed trailer. It takes two people to carry the mainsail of a F40 down the dock. The RC30 mainsail weighs 36 pounds with battens. Winches are required to trim the sails on an F40. Winches are slow to respond with to changing sail trim/requirements. Pulley systems and cam action jam cleats are quick to respond with. Two guys can pick up a 175pound RC30 hull and move it around, load and unload etc. A crane is used to pick up an F40 hull and move it around. A crane steps the mast on the F40. The RC30 uses a gin pole and the mainsheet pulley system.
When boat size goes beyond 30ft, boat part weights quickly become greater than people can handle. For example, hull weight varies/scales with length cubed, l**3. A 175 pound hull at 30ft scales to 302 pounds at 36ft. Two guys can pick up a 175 pound hull easily. A couple of NFL linemen could pick up a 302 pound hull but not two 160 pound average sailors. The 30ft long beach cat is at the practical upper limit of manageable size boat components. Go beyonnd 30ft and things that increase in weight as the cube of their size just simply get out of hand for people to handle manually. For boats larger than 30ft in length and masts taller than 45ft, cranes and tractor trailer trucks are required and then the cost of boat ownership just exploated. That is why the whole F40 and Pro Sail thing failed, COSTS. If it had been done in RC30s, it would still be thriving today. The RC30 continues to turn in the lowest ET's and PN data that US Sailing has ever received.
Good Sailing,
Bill
PS I want to hear about you winning some races out there in Texas.

Bill,

How is it calculated that a Tornado Sport utilizes 24.3ftlbs per square foot of sail area?

Hello Jake,
The Tornado Sport is 10ft wide and weighs 395 pounds and has 251 sqft of sail area and is sailed by two 160 pound people.
Platform righting moment equals 395 x 10/2 = 1975 ftlbs of righting moment.
People righting moment in the trapeze position equals (2 x 160)(10ft + 2.9ft) = 4128 ftlbs.
Total righting moment equals 1975 + 4128 = 6103 ft lbs.
Righting moment to sail area ratio = 6103/251 = 24.3.
This number right here is why the Tornado runs away and hides from the narrow gauge boats when the wind blows. There are other 20ft boats with similiar weights and sail areas to the Tornado and when the wind is light, they can stay on the same leg as the Tornado, But, let the wind pick up and the Tornado is gone! The Tornado with its superior righting moment to sail area ratio can continue to drive the sails hard as the wind builds while the narrow gauge boats have to depower.
Designing a narrow boat with a similiar sail area/plan as the Tornado does two undesireable things to the sailing contest.
First, the narrow boat will be slower than the Tornado in medium and especially heavy winds. Second, the narrow boat will favor heavier sailors more than the Tornado as the wind increases because the narrow boat is overpowered with sail area for its maximum righting moment capability.
Jake, if you had ever sailed a 12ft wide boat, you wouldn't want to go back to 8ft. A fifty percent wider boat will obvisously generate 50% more max righting moment. Fifty percent more max righting moment will generate 50% more max sail thrust out of the same sail area. Fifty percent more sail thrust is WOW! It is like putting a supercharger on the engine in your car and burning nitromethane fuel. It will blow you away with thrills and excitement and speed. To control 50% more horsepower than you ever have before will scare you at first but you will get the hang of it. It will change your attitude toward heavy air sailing and it lets average size people be more competitive when the wind blows. Increasing righting moment by making boats wider is the least expensive go fast there is.
Good Sailing,
Bill

hello Bill-

Bill Gibbs stated the GMSails made a big difference. They are cuben fiber. I plan on ordering a main and jib from GMsails this winter for my FMS 20 #57 and my F25c.

The reason I dream/designed a boat with less power to weight ratio was because where I live the winds blow 15-25 with gusts when they do blow. I thought that with a 20 ft beam [didn't think about racks] and an increase LOA to 38ft [LWL=36'}would be more stable for this area. I dropped the main/jib to 500sqftas well.

I still think about the RC30 and the way it demonstrates the design you created. I am suprised that none of the west coast boats [RC30s] go up against Afterburner in the ghost races they have from time to time. I bet Gibbs a chocolate cake [match race] if I ever get away from here with the ARC22.

Jake- Bill's absolutely right about the 12' beamed cats. I sailed a Tornado for seven years before the rep [tall guy that could pick up the FMS 20 mast] took me for a ride on the 4th of July [BorgvsMcEnroe]. I fell inlove with the design completely. I have an 1980 FMS 20 being refinished by Caldwell now and hope it will be ready to paint by September. Its one of the original boats. Of the three boats I have the 1980 FMS 20 #57 is my favorite because it sails great singlehanded with the main alone. With the jib furled its a light touch speedster. Once i was caught in a blow off a point and the boat accelerated so fast the rigging was deafening. Great boat! If you ever get a chance to sail one be prepared for a major change...

thom

I am also with Bill....

Once you sail a boat with some decent beam, you never look back.... and it takes a while to get the smile of your face . This normaly happens when you go for your first capsize and realize how far you have to fall

These RC and ARC boats sound like serious fun. We don't have these Down Under... Please tell me more about them.

Cost (new and second hand)
Models and specs
how many are raced and where (Internationaly)
Manufacture or Class Websites

Cheers

Here's some numbers (ignoring sail area):

Tornado, 10' wide, 395lbs, 160lb crew X 2
boat righting moment: (395/2)*10 = 1975 ftlbs
crew righting moment: (160*2)*(10+2.9ft) = 4128 ftlbs
TOTAL = 6,103 ftlbs

Nacra6.0NA
boat righting moment: (460/2)*8.5 = 1955 ftlbs
crew righting moment: (160*2)*(8.5+2.9) = 3648 ft lbs
TOTAL: 5,603 ftlbs


This means the crew on the 6.0NA needs to make up a deficit righting moment of 500ftlbs and using the combined 320lb crew weight, a 1.56ft wing would do it. I certainly do not wish to doubt your expertise but I'm a little unclear where you derived that a 35' wide wing boat would be necessary.

Given a choice on the water, I would go with the 10' wide Tornado - hands down. However, given the choice of putting something behind my truck and traveling down the road, I would go with a 8.5' wide boat with wings. I think having wings on a one piece trailerable boat do give you a good deal more righting moment and might be worthwhile.

Hi Stephen,
Check out the Aquarius-Sail web site and you can see and read about the ARC product line of catamarans.
Cheers,
Bill

Jake-

I drove a tilt trailer for seven years all over the USA. I am looking into a tilt trailer [one] for my ARC22 & FMS 20. One can stay on the beach while the other goes with me...

thom

Stephen- go to my web page in the photo section and you will find some pics of my ARC22 on the trailer. I don't have any of the boat on the water uploaded as yet.

thom

Hi Jake,
The first thing I did to our 'phantom boat' was to power it up a little as Carl suggested to 300 sqft of sail area. Then I increased the crew righting lever arm until the boat had the same 'total righting moment to sail area ratio' as the Tornado Sport. This rational leads to a boat that has a higher power/sail area to weight ratio than the TS and the same righting moment to sail area ratio as the TS. This leads to a boat that is faster than the TS.
My whole point was to show that this design thing is a difficult task and you can't just grab a few features and throw them together and have a faster boat guaranteed. You have to do Performance Analysis on paper before you fly off and build a boat that misses your goals.
Your analysis, Jake, gets your boat up to the same righting moment as the TS but it is a heavy boat so it will be slower in all conditions because it is down in power/sail area to weight ratio relative to the TS. Your boat has 264sqft of sail area according to a web site. To have the same righting moment to sail area ratio as the TS, your boat needs a total righting moment of 6415 ftlbs. This leads to 11ft wide rails or a 22ft wide boat with nobody on the trapeze. Get out on the wire and the boat is 28ft wide. It happens fast doesn't it and it is still slower than a Tornado Sport.
Keep this in mind: If the goal is to build a faster boat than some objective, the overall performance goal will only be met when the basic design parameters of the new design exceed the competition. Building a new design with equal performance design parameters to the competition will always fail to be successful. At best the new boat will be equal to the old boat and who wants to build a new product that is the same performance as an old product. For a new design to be faster than an old design, the new design must EXCEED the old design in every performance related design parameter.
Good Sailing,
Bill

Thom,
You know where to get anything you want for your ARC products, FROM THE FACTORY.
Bill

Thanks for your reply Bill,

I think we are comparing apples to oranges by trying to get the same sail area to righting moment ratio between a 10' wide, 251 sq ft Tornado and a nut busting 8.5' wide boat with Carl's 300 sq ft worth of sails. I'm not trying to defend Carl's desire for monster sail area but I am trying to defend the addition of racks to the 6.0NA to achieve considerable more righting moment with minimal weight gain. OK, my 6.0 is a good deal heavier than the Tornado and even with Racks, I'm not claiming it will be just as fast, but with my current upwind sail area (which is actually greater), I can achieve the same sail area to righting moment (same 320lbs of crew weight; although this is pretty light for a 6.0) ratio double trapped on a 2.5' rack. Add Carl's monster sail area and yeah, our boat + racks would have to be 18.9' wide.

Hi Jake & Bill ,

Great to have interesting exchange of views on ideal design which may be so many different ideal concepts based on intent of use.
Some include {cruising -racing } --then the practical limitations -{budget constrainsts and size limitation ,-14 footer or 120 ft Playstation },-, ,
{geographic location},--need to trailer,-- or lake and protected harbor type sailing to ocean or Great Lakes type sailing in seas and surf , and{ sailing experience } -racing background ,-type of racing -races in a large class or smaller rated groups ,-type of boat sailed ,-{all relate their veiws based on existing experiences }.

Think your in agreement on the wing aspect ,-as Bill noted the addition of 5 ft wings on the 30 design .

To revisit the last comment in the original post ---
future racing and events --
The 30 seems like the ideal craft or at least one class
{maybe another at 20 with wings}-for it when another ProSail type series {raced on F-40S and H-21S }or similar interesting major distance race event capable of drawing in a major sports marketing entrapenure and ESPN or TV time ,-
{peole will watch putting for an hour --amazing }
The sport needs this type of exposure as one aspect towards its renewal and increased interest in it .

It was a great experience to race in Prosail and the Ultimate Yacht Race series on H-21s BACK IN 88 as seen on ESPN and NBC Sports .
They picked the breeziest venues and some of the major sailing centers around the country ,-NewPort R I -and Mystic Con .-Miami ,-Great Lakes area ,on St Clair -Corpus Cristy Tex ,-San Francisco ,-etc ,--

Another sure way to create international interest would be the always interesting human drama aspect of distance racing on high speed cats and the course raced ,-The 1000 mile races and the Tybee 500 draw this and international interest , With larger potentially faster craft like 30s the course raced should become larger ,-Racing across the Atlantic has always been a great one ,-earlier OSTAR races and other examples indicate this as well as around the globe races ,-which seem too extreme to most sailing though feilds of "growlers" -ice chuncks in the S-Ocean ,-but across the Atlantic , seems very possible and ecomonically feasable on the 30s . --The 120 ftrs too expensive or evan 60 tris --often too fragile and expensive ,--the 30s may be the ideal craft .

Maybe it is just my very excellent sailing teamate in the Tybee 500 this year ,Gale ,- http://www.galebrowning.com/
who is targeting around alone in 06---
that has me thinking in these terms ,but think racing F-30s across the Atlantic in internation competition with live camera aboard each would be a fasinating film all sailors and all people would enjoy seeing , something very marketable particularly in this sports crazed extreme reality T V type trend currently .-
It would draw in all types of racing enthusiasts from numerous sailing classes around the globe.

The sponsor idealy would provide 20 to 25 boats and allow entries of teams of 3 plus an alternate in teams from around the globe ,and provide all aspects of event organization ,-- needed modification for an Atlantic race like reef systems ,-storage of water and supplies would be needed ,and a dry safe in hull sleeping area --assume this could be accomplished along with other design aspects geared towards this more extreme event ,along with standards of EPIRBS -phones GPS ,-flares etc that have become the norm in the 1000 mile races ,-teams would outfit and supply themselves as the major team expence along with transportation of personel .-

The transformation of what will be called -THE aMERICAS cUP ON cATS -on HT 18s will be interesting ,-but think something bigger is needed to capture the imagination of the general public .

Both sides of {the big pond } would get very interested in this type of event ,-

For now we have to settle for the 500 or 1000 mile coastal versions ,-but think we will see this in the future .
Be ready Bill and Tom ,--and potential Sailing teams out there .-
Always good to place interesting ideas and concepts out there ,-for ideal design and events -food for thought

Carl .

Haberman is going to build some battens for both my F25c and FMS 20. I sent him the info on the F25c last month. I'm also going to consult him about a stern hung rudder as well.

thom

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how sponsor-provided boats sailing across the Atlantic is going to gain the interest of the non-sailing public.

Even golfers take their clubs home with them.

It still seems like a very expensive race you're dreaming about.

I think you'd get more people to watch 10 Tornado teams racing across the Atlantic. Slightly less extreme, would be 10 Reynolds 21-style boats. Call them maximum beach-cats or minimum cruisers if you will. An added flair would be if the teams each built their own boats. You'd have stitch-and-glue plywood designs going up against strip-planked cedar or foam-sandwich boats. Kinda like a poor-mans Paris-Dakaar race across open ocean.

Hi Jake,
Racks added to a N6.0 would definately make the boat faster than it presently is in medium and heavy weather and smaller people could sail the boat better/faster in stronger winds. These are all +++++s.
There was a time when boats were 8ft wide with double trap and sail areas were around 210 sqft to 220 sqft. Now we have added 0.5ft or 6% to the width of beach cats and the sail areas are up 20% to 30%. What's going on? Where's the balance? Ans: The factories have added sail area to their new products to make them faster than other new products. So what has happened is the new products are faster in light winds but they are slower when the wind blows and they now favor people of greater weight.
Notice the jam-up of Portsmouth Numbers around 60 + or - 1. There are boats of different sail plans and hull shapes and board and rudder shapes and rigging arrangements but they all run to the same PN which says these boats are the same performance level within 1 PN point. What is causing that???
These boats have one basic design measurement in common, the 8.5ft width. Boat width sets maximum righting moment. Max righting moment sets maximum sail thrust and maximum sail thrust sets max boat speed. So you give all these 20x8.5ft wide boats the same max sail thrust and they all go the same speed within 1 PN point.
Look at the CFR20, 20x8.5ft. A 275 pound boat with 287 sqft of sail on a 34ft mast and. Everybody thought this boat was going to be a rocketship being 150 pounds lighter than other 20x8.5ft wide boats plus it has a big unirig sail plan which is supposed to be more efficient. What is its PN? Guess what, 59.4. I point this out only to show how basic to performance 'boat width'is. Boat width is king when it comes to performance for boats of the same length. As long as we stick with this 8.5ft wide thing, we are going to be stuck with boats with a PN of 60. You can spend thousands of dollars and have all carbon everything and take a hundred plus pounds off the weight of your boat and your PN is still going to be 60 as long as the boat is 8.5ft wide. When are we going to break the barrier? When are we going to step into the world of really fast boats that the average size person can sail to its maximun in strong winds?
Bill

Hi Jake,
I made an arithmetic mistake in my previous post. For the N6.0 to have the same righting moment to sail area ratio as the TS, the hicking lever arm for the double trap 320 pounds of crew is 11ft. This doesn't make the boat 22ft wide. It only makes the boat 13.5ft wide and add the people out on the trap and the boat requires 19.5ft of room/width on the starting line.
Bill

Bill and Jake...Very interesting discussion. First I should say that I am an Architect which means I know enough engineering to be dangerous. My question is this, Increasing the righting moment only increases the max wind speed that can be accepted before depowering is required. But there will be a range of wind speed where a narrower boat with wings will fly a hull and the wider boat will not. In this range isn't the narrower boat faster all other things being equal. Sometimes a lower righting moment is desireable...Dan

Thanks for the discussion Bill!...I can go to bed now as for I have 'learnt' my thing for the day. Seriously - that was fun. Now I just need a tubing bender for that 2" OD aluminum tubing and to figure out a way to get out on that 2.5' rack without killing myself.

Its not all that hard...

Ok, maybe it is, took me a couple tries to get out on my wing without inadvertently going off course

Dan,
There is no rule that says the skipper and crew must always sit on the windward hull. To go fast the skipper and crew, the balast, should sit where ever is necessary to allow the boat to 'fly a hull'. There have been comments on this forum about A cat sailors sitting in the middle of the tramp and 'flying a hull downwind'. Look at some of the righting moment numbers in this thread and you will see that the people on the boat are the major contributors to total righting moment. To go fast the sailors should always place their weight so as to allow the boat to just barely 'fly a hull'.
Good Sailing,
Bill

Very interesting discussion…it is amazing how Mr. Roberts can explain over and over again how things work in the real engineering world, only to have the catamaran community hide it’s head in the sand and ignore the reality of Physics.

Seems, everyone wants a faster boat…BUT…they artificially paint themselves into a corner with self imposed limitations on Length, Width, Weight, and Sail area, Mast height…etc… You know one of the definitions of insanity is “one who wants to do things the same way they have always done them, but achieve different results.

I am starting to come to the conclusion that “racing rules” have done more to harm the development of boat design, be it power or sail…mono hull or multi hull…than any other factor. To get a very good handle on this topic read “Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor” By C.A. Marchaj. It talks about how racing rules have driven ocean going Mono Hulls farther and farther away from seaworthy designs, as designers have gone to extremes to “cheat” the rules…he speaks of how many of today’s mono hull designs have little to do with what is “best” at sea…and everything to do with twisting design perimeters, forcing them to design in a self imposed box. All for the elusive carrot of ‘fair racing”. Which for all practical purposes will never be achieved 100% …

Some where along the line things went way off track…no longer is it about designing and building the best boat regardless of limitations. “Trailing width” has become one of the “all powerful” limiting factors of Catamaran design. I find it amazing that everyone pretty much acknowledges this fact, and accepts it without protest. Instead of limiting “on the water” performance because of trailering…why not attack the real problem…the transportation of the boat to the water.

It appears that SC/ARC has made great strides in that direction, but the majority seem easily defeated by this problem… so quick to “roll over and play dead”. We sent a man to the moon, are you going to tell me we can’t come up with a better solution in transporting a 400 lb. boat?

I find it very sad that the designers of true innovation and superior products (like Mr. Roberts) who strive for the “best” within practical limits…who refuse to be put in a box…find limited commercial success, while those who are more adept at marketing than design/engineering, fair much better in the economic arena.

I will venture to say that until the catamaran community is willing to shake off its self imposed chains of “racing design rules” (which I don’t see happening), it will be artificially frozen in the doldrums of mediocrity.

The 38-year-old Tornado Catamaran’s current level of performance when compared to the “latest and greatest” drives this point home with undeniable clarity.

In our new “ politically correct” society”… we have come to expect that things will conform to “our reality”. Unfortunately…or dare I say fortunately…physics has some frustrating lessons for those that choose to ignore it's Laws...

Bob

seeker:

You make several good points, however, I'd just like to point out that I would, in an instant without hesitation trade my H17 up for a tornado in any condition, if it was narrow enough to safely trailer around. You have to factor in transportation into your sailing experience, if your boat doesn't even make it to the water, theres little point in trying to argue about its hydrodynamics.

Hello Maugan17,
Most wide boats can be taken apart by removing 8 bolts, 2 at each end of each beam. Then the hulls and beams rolled up in the tramp are loaded onto a trailer with the hulls sitting side by side. The sails and rudders go in the sail box. It is no big deal.
In 1978 I came out with a boat 20ft x 12ft, the SC20. The beams telescoped from 8ft wide out to 12ft. The tramp stayed on the hulls and beams. The rudders stayed on the hulls. It took 20 minutes to go from 8ft wide to 12ft wide with mast up. The boat had a PN of 60 without spinnaker.
It was a great family boat and it was also the fastest production beach cat ever built. Have you ever heard of this boat?
Bill

If trailing width is THE rule framing all comercially designed beach cats, then the "ideal beach cat" needs a new and more user friendly folding system to feature a larger width without sacrificing trailerability. Reducing the dry docking area needed in beaches and clubs also helps.

Note that small cabin multihulls not much bigger then beach cats boomed after different folding systems were developed 20 years ago, notably the Farrier system.

Would a scaled down folding system help? It's hard to imagine a Farrier folding system in a beach cat, but maybe the swing-wing system could be adapted with relative ease. The extra length would not help, though: a folded ARC 30 would result too long for trailing without a permit - but still easier to assemble. Maybe a "swing-float" ARC22?

Anyway, I agree with the "no rules" approach to multihull design. Faster, safer, and cheaper is better. And that's it.

Sounds like the system that the H21SE uses to telescope its beam.

I have heard of the SC20. While I realize that it doesn't take THAT much more effort, it is awefully nice to just heave up the stick and off you go.

I'm still leaning towards getting a tornado at this point.

I see nothing wrong with the telescoping beams on the SC20...we have several in our club. This system works very well unless you take into account the width of the few boat ramps we have to use. Then you might consider a way to extend the beams once on the water.

I am surely not an authority here, but I do have some comments that I think are uselful.

Even though I have facilitated the one man righting of a H21SE, I have never seen either a H21SE nor a SC20 being expanded from trailering width to sailing width.

But I would like to point out one thing that is quite obvious to me, that a H21SE is very difficult to expand to its sailing width.

While many cats, including the Stilleto 27 and the SC20 have straight cross-beams, the H21SE has curved cross-beams. They are cured as if they belonged to a TheMightyHobie18.

My bottom line:
Expanding a boat with beams that are curved, has got to be a VERY difficult manuever!!!!

GARY

I would think it would be obvious that the beams would be straight unless the benefit of curved (arched beams) locked at 8'-6" could provide an advantage superior to the advantage gained by increasing the width of the platform with a extendible beams. Let form follow function.

Bob

Hello Jake and Gary-

There is a price to pay for wide beamed boats in my experience. When I first bought my FMS 20[restickered Supercat 20 by Boston Whaler according to the rep who found the boat for me in Jupiter, Fla.] in 1981. It had an expandable trailer with a winch to spread it out and pull it together. Unless you greased the pulleys everytime this trailer would bind. The trailer I have for my ARC22 is expandable but has no cables. You simply pick up a hull and walk it out. It takes a couple of pulls on each end to get a hull fully out but its alot easier than the one with cables. It aligns well most of the time. I usually put it together singlehanded because I always pay close attention to details. It takes awhile to complete the task. I have a place where I can leave it on the trailer fully assembled thats close to the lake. Don Caldwell has nade a tilt trailer for his SC20. He said he can be on the water in 45 minutes which is very quick. I may get one of those myself. There's nothing like sailing a wide beamed boat once you get a chance to try it... you won't want to go back.

thom

Telescoping beams work but it is hard to say that they are user friendly. I was always finding excuses not to trailer the SC21 because I disliked the system so much. It jams easily with sand, the bolts were difficult to remove, parts got lost...

The reason I favor some kind of swinging beam system is that it could also be used in the water. Maybe somehting like the X folding beams shown in the last MM, page 20 (Cat 2 Fold). It doesn't need to lower the mast to fold.

Hi All

Good posts ,

Raced the H-21 for a year and traveled around the country with it for events ,-
The telescoping beams were not a problem at all ,--though you needed to be carefull around sand as it would cause binding .-We generally set up in parking lots or grass areas.
The added wings to the extended beam were great also ,though you had to be sure to tie them in ,
the spin block was mounted on the wing end and could be pulled out by the force which would result in a wing flying around at the end on a spin sheet line ,-
The physics problem of the 21 was its huge overall weight,
the comptip mast was very heavy also , to lift and take down .
quick story -
On one mast take down in Newport ,I had gotten a large gash on my hand during Sat races that required stitches ,
we raced Sun ,-me with a duct taped right hand in high winds and a huge chop from enormous amounts of boat traffic from spectators and the jazz festival going on .
With the mast that heavy and tall and one hand good was a bad combination , half way down the base popped off its base and started down pivoting on my shoulder with me fighting it the whole way ,---For some reason the gr crew thought they could catch it before it hit ,--yelled let it go ,--but too late ,--they ended up with a fractured wrist . -Rough wek for al of us.
We had one on a trap wire on each side ,--but from then on we always attached a rope and winch .

Do really appreciate the light C F masts available to use now ,-hopefully costs will continue to come down for them .


Wanted to comment on the rules aspect and how that effects boat design also ,-for cats though ,not monos .
Will add a post there in re -.

It is too bad that the system used for the Shark catamaran has not been adapted to others. It's a 20-foot-long, 10-foot-wide boat. It folds up in the middle so it looks kind of like a long teepee on the trailer. The folding and unfolding only takes a few minutes. I'm sure there must be some reason why it doesn't work for other boats, since no others have used it. The new Sharks weigh in at minimum weight of (I think) 450 lbs. Maybe the folding system only works because of the hard deck instead of trampoline? Oughta get Shark Builder John Rogers on here to comment. Always seemed to me like a better option than telescope or tilt.

Mary,
Are Sharks still built from molded plywood? It may be that with more modern materials they could weigh in at 400 lbs., as good or better than most 20 footers.
David