Class legal tramp?? Give me a break!

Related to my post about needing a new tramp, I just have to vent a little bit.

I think it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of in my life that there's such a thing as a class legal tramp. Could someone please explain this logic to me?????!!!!

It makes about as much sense as declaring that there will be a class legal bolt or shackle.

Everyone in the world of one design gets on their high horse about how this "helps make sailing affordable for everyone," but that is just utter BS.

How does that make it affordable when a new trampoline for the various Hobies ranges in price from 400 to 650 bucks, while the aftermarket equivalents, which in some cases are probably made better are half that cost??

I could go have Aquarius Sail or Salty Dog build me a tramp that would probably be better, for less money, and then some shmuck could protest me, or the sailor of my boat for not being class legal.

Working on restraining the "arms race" is one thing, but this is just ridiculous.

My vent for the evening.............



Tim J.

Tim,

The Nacra rules are the same. I sort of agree (sitting on the fence a little) with that though. If not trampolines, where do you stop? Sails? OK, the tramp is not a big performance ticket but it can add to boat stiffness if it's really tight (not to consider the warrantee and market reliability perception if everyone started buying supper tight trampolines and breaking boats). However, Nacra does seem to keep their pricing more in line with the one-off market. I just installed my new trampoline this weekend and according to the Nacra pricing guide (I haven't gotten the final bill yet) my new tramp for my 6.0 was around $350 from the factory. That's about $20 more than I can get an aftermarket one for and not too bad IMO. That Hobie price does sound VERY high.

Actually, I checked again and the Nacra trampoline is $20 CHEAPER than the aftermarket trapolines I found online.

Jake,

Come on, you're not really sitting on the fence on this one are you???

I'm almost speechless, this issue is so stupid. Maybe with a Hobie 16, you'd have an argument, but even there, people are doing all kinds of things to make their boats stiffer. I know of several people who have epoxied those boats together to make them stiff.

Even the sail thing is stupid. Make them measure in to a certain sail plan tolerance, and call it good. I think the formula idea is by far the best thing to hit the world of sailing in a long time. It's finally something that appears to be reasonable.

The other hilarious thing about the tramps (and the sails, for that matter), if I recall correctly, is that Hobie used to out source most of that stuff.

My first Hobie 20 sails were made by Elliot Pattison, and the tramp was probably made by someone like Salty Dog Marine in Michigan. Now, if I wanted to have Salty Dog build me the same frigging tramp, I couldn't do it! If I wanted to have Elliot Pattison build the sail I couldn't do it.

Yet compare a set of 1995 sails to year 2000 sails, and the shape isn't even close!!!

I like one design racing. I hate the idea of needing a calculator to determine by how much I got my butt kicked, or by how much I kicked someone elses butt. It should be as obvious as when we each crossed the finish line.

That being said, however, some of the rules that NAHCA puts out for Hobie Cat racing must have been developed in a vacuum, and I would appreciate if someone within NAHCA could place this into some sort of perspective that makes sense.

Oh, and getting back to tramp materials. If one wants to play devil's advocate, when did it become ok to switch from vinyl to mesh??? Surely the newer Hobie 16s and 18s with mesh have an advantage??? I doubt it. Was NAHCA consulted when that change was made?

Enough rant. Dumb, dumb, stupid, stupid, dumb, dumb, stupid!

Tim J.

Dang Tim...I'm buying the beer next time I'm up that way.

Check the Inter class rules....number of grommets is a regulated quantity.

I'm always thirsty! Let's make it a Summit, and support the local economy!

Tim J.

>>>Check the Inter class rules....number of grommets is a regulated quantity.


So ? By the same measure these class rules are "significantly uneducated and unreasonable" too

Who on this forum actually thinks that having say 11 grommets instead of 9 grommet will make you faster ?

Just learn to sail well !

Wouter

I got severely bagged on an Aussie Sailing Forum when I suggested that you should be able to get anyone to make sails for your Hobies and Nacros as long as they measured. Mind you the biggest bagging I got was from a Hobie dealer (Hi Mal).

This ludicrous situation is one of the reasons I sail a Taipan. Any sail maker, any block maker, any tramp maker, any foil maker,you can even build your own boat - as long as they measure they are class legal.

Rob
Timber homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS175.
For more info about Taipans see:
www.taipan.asn.au

Tim, (hey!)

Is this similar to the auto industry financial situation? Perhaps these manufacturers need the sales from the replacement parts to remain viable concerns. One design rules give them a relative certain prospect of future sales on every boat they can manage to sell. From abusiness perspective this is sensible and I can see the logic. The part that frosts my butt is the disparity in prices between Hobie and other vendors. Perhaps Hobie is carrying too much overhead, or is a "top heavy" company.

Silly rules like that is one of the reasons I own a Tornado now.

This is where the difference between a "one manufacturer" class and a "one design" class become apparent. The beauty of a one design class like the Tornado and Taipan is that if one builder (boats,sails,tramps etc) goes off the rails a bit with quality or price there are plenty of others to choose from. this keeps the quality high and the prices reasonable. with one manufacturer classes you are effectivly held to ransom, and there are no market forces in place to regulate the quality or price.

Certainly appears to be a problem with the Hobie pricing. We just need another manufacturer to provide as much support as Hobie does.

Wasn't there an issue at the last Olympics about an "illegal" Tornado tramp? Something about the mesh so open that the wind went right through it and lowered the possibility of capsize while flying a hull. What was the story on that? Where can I get some of that material?

Check out this place. http://www.multihullnets.com/warrant/warrant.htm

The T tramp from the sydney games was more of a diversion than a serious attempt, the bloody thing was twice as heavy as the normal mesh tramp and was as slippery as ice, looked cool though. Plus the efforts the rest of the fleet went to to ban the new tramp was a great way to distract them from on the water training

In order to realize the beauty of one-design racing, I think you have to get involved in some open class racing or PRF racing, where people are forced to always spend money in upgrading equipment because of the hottest thing on the market. I've done all three (one-design, open class, and Portsmouth on monohulls and cats) and the simplest and truest is one-design; it's just skills on the course (assuming you know how to tune the boat).

I know it doesn't make sense, but look at what the F18s are going through now trying to get the best spinnaker launcher.

I know the price of Hobie tramps are unusually high, and we have had a few people in our fleet buy the after-market replacements to save $100, but if they decide to sell the boat to someone who's interested in racing, they'll probably lose that money they saved in the resale value.

Just a thought.

Wyatt

You've missed the point. The arms race still exists in Hobie's version of one design, becuase everyone knows that it doesn't stay the same. Just ask any Hobie 16 or 18 sailor what years to seek out or avoid according to the weight of the boat. Ask a Hobie 20 sailor how the sails have differed greatly in cut over the years from '92 until now. Ask Rick how much the luffs of the Hobie Wave have varied.

It's a great theory (a theory I can agree with), but it's just not reality in this case.

Tim

One design is good idea, but it just dosn't happen.

Here in Switzerland some folks sail firstclass 8 (one design), a monohull.

At the last german championships the teams coming over from France had to carry lead, while the boat of my friend was carrying 400 kg overweight, with no stuff inside.
The overweight came from storing the boat in the water (we guessed). The teams with a higher budget lifted there boats out of the water an stored them in a heated place.
Also the builder changed the **** layout of the new boats.

An other example, a friend of mine, was competing at this years european championship of topper boss (Skiff like 49er)at the lake of garda. He was sailing a older boat, but the new boats were completly different. they changed the gennackersize and shape (lufflength), gib size and had a taller mast. All one design ...
At least the wind was high enuogh, so the lack of sail area didn't matter that much.

good sailing
Andi

[quote
You've missed the point. ][/quote]

No Tim, he didn't miss the point... I think he was right on. The "arms race" is a ligitamate argument in favor of Hobie Cat racing, not against. Regardless of who I work for... my opinion is that the formula that Hobie Alter devised is what has made Hobie Cat racing what it was... and is. Geez have some respect for the Guy. You can debate this issue till you are blue in the face... fact is... Hobie Alter had it right the first time around. Now there are too many cooks in the kitchen and they are going to spoil the soup unless we try and keep to the original thinking!

Now on the original question... The cost of the Hobie 20 trampoline has already been artificially lowered, because I felt it was too high as well. I will have to review in the morning, but I know I have looked at this many times before. Our cost of manufacture is based on labor hours in a product and overhead. The Hobie 20 trampoline is a perfect net fit from side to side, is not square like all of the others. It has a ton of labor in it. We have a dealer network. They are the reason we are still here and the reason you are able to buy a boat and even race a Hobie event. We do not sell direct as other builders do, so it is very difficult to compete with a company like Sunrise who sells direct.

I remember during the last (final?) Worrell that at least one team had something like 18 grommets in excess of this Inter class rule. They had used these grommets to get extra tension on their trampoline and were told, mid-race, to quickly fix it before the next leg in order to comply with the rule. That much tension could potentially mess a boat up.

Yes, you're right, and I appreciate your reply to this thread. I just think we need get sensible on which parts of the boat are part of that arms race. We've already agreed that you can buy standing rigging, blocks, sheets, etc., from whomever you want, and maybe the tramp is worth discussing, maybe not.

I also can appreciate what you mentioned about the dimensions of the tramp. I had forgotten that, and can imagine that it would add a lot of labor. It still makes my pocketbook say ouch, though!

If only I could buy it from Sunrise and still be a law abiding citizen!

Tim

No boats are as slow as boats that are upside down or scatted about in multiple pieces.

So what is the point ?

How doe limiting the number of grommits make racing more fair ?

Wouter

It's probably more about A) maintaining the warrantee of the boat and B) the manufacturer trying to keep his product from appearing faulty (suppose a lot of people add the grommets/extra tension and end up breaking boats).

Just so you guys know that Hobie Cat is not makeing a ton of dough on a Hobie 20 trampoline...

Tim,

I just reviewed the costs of the Hobie 20 trampoline...

The 20 tramp has 5.3 times the cost of labor and overhead that the 16 tramp has. Yikes!

The 16 trampoline has 1.68 hours of labor. The 20 tramp has 8.9 hours of labor.

There are several reasons the labor is so much more. We build hundreds of 16 tramps and they are basically square. When we cut trampolines for the 16 we can slit a roll of cloth in an automated system. They run seams through our welders by hundreds of feet at a time. The 20 is more of a custom run. The 20 trampoline is cut with a very precise pattern, one at a time. It has tons of little details that the 16 trampoline does not have. Pockets, grommets, little webbing straps. The shape is a net fit with the hulls.

I must admit... it is a nice trampoline.

Hobie sells the 20 trampoline for $630.00. (In 1999 the 20 tramp was listed as $720.00. It has been $630.00 since 2000 regardless of the increases in labor and overhead costs we have incurred.) The 20 trampoline is available in Black, Teal, Turquoise and Blue. All of these are IN STOCK so you can sail tomorrow if you need one.

The trampolines are all heat welded vinyl. These are proven to be the longest lasting trampoline materials and process available. Other direct sales companies have lesser quality materials that are stitched. We know we have to compete with these guys in some way, but we cannot give away product to do so.

Hobie Cat has a dealer network that helps to support sailors nationwide (Worldwide for that matter). We cannot sell boats and parts direct nor would it be in the end users best interest. Other companies sell direct as they have no dealer network. Simple math makes it difficult for Hobie Cat to compete with a company that will sell factory direct. No Hobie dealers means no new boat sales. No new boat sales means no future for Hobie or Hobie cat racing. Pretty simple concept.

As you can see, you pay more for the Hobie made trampoline for many reasons more than just the class legal issue.

Matt

Hi Matt,

I really appreciate the fact that you've explained the math behind this. I had forgotten that the Hobie 20 tramp was not square, and can see where that would add quite a bit of labor, along with the other issues you mentioned.

So, I'm convinced that it's a pretty nice tramp.

However, when money is tight from time to time, I still wish that if I as the consumer wanted to get a cheaper one to get by, that I could, without being (theoretically) protested by some schmuck who had a bad day.

I'll be saving up my pennies over the winter so I can buy a new one. Thank goodness we have winter here in the frozen north!

Cheers!

Tim

Matt
How responsive is the Hobie organization to feedback like you have just received on this forum? Hobie customers have raised a reasonable question, to which you responded with a reasonable answer. My question is this…Now that the subject has been broached about the cost of replacement parts (particularly the Tramp) what if any consideration will Hobie give this with its future designs. A tramp design, which is complex and costly to produce, can be more easily justified with a no-holds-bared boat (M 20?). For a boat that is to be used/raced by the masses, I would think a great deal of thought would be put into the design for the most effective blend of performance and cost efficiency in manufacture. It sounds like the Hobie 20 may have a bit more complexity in the Tramp design than necessary. May be too late to change for the Hobie 20…but it might definitely be worth looking at it a bit harder before putting the next model into production.

8.9 hrs is quite a bit of time…but where it is made also comes into play…I make no pretence at knowing where Hobie has their Tramps made…If it is made in the USA by highly paid craftsman, smothered with government regulations and environmental concerns that’s one thing…. If it is being made in China with hazardous working conditions, no regard for their environment, by people who are getting paid a daily wage that wouldn’t pay for lunch at a typical McDonalds that’s something all together different. That is not an accusation aimed at Hobie, just a fact that many big businesses are taking advantage of the extremely low wages of some foreign countries. …If that is the case, then it is the big manufacture that has products manufactured overseas that has the advantage, not the “little guy” who is doing production is the U.S. and selling direct.

In closing I would like to thank Matt for taking the time to set the record straight, the more information the buyer has, the more secure he/she feels about investing in a product.

Bob

I'd say Hobie Cat USA is VERY responsive. I lowered the cost of the Hobie 20 trampoline several years ago due to concerns like these. I have been pricing all of the trampolines with an eye on what is available out there from other suppliers. I know people have a choice. Racers only account for about 10% of the business we do, so we have a much bigger picture we have to be aware of when considering the recreational market for these things. Actually we have Hobie 16 tramps for far less than what you can get at Sunrise. The colored mesh are only about $20.00 more and all are class legal.

Let me just clarify:

Hobie Cat makes all of our tramps and sails here in Oceanside California. We have made our own since the company was based in Irvine and brought the McKibben loft in-house. This goes for all US Models / can’t say for HC France models. I think allot of their stuff is made in Europe, but some are likely made in Hong Kong. We have been very aware over the years that buying off shore can save money, but it costs jobs here. Most of what we do now is better served by building here due to more factors related to flexibility and inventory levels. It is only cheaper over there if you can buy in big quantities and stock heavily.

You should understand something about the Hobie 20. The Hobie 20 was a joint Hobie Cat and private venture that was intended for export for Europe originally. It ended up as a Hobie Cat USA model. We did not have full control over that design... and once it was done and produced for a while, we didn't want to change it. You guys obviously hate it when we change things and we are VERY aware of that.

We are very cognizant of making changes that affect the class, but we are also only one part of the picture. As a manufacturer we are but one vote on the rules committee. The class has the say so on many things. Personally I have been all over the proposed changes to the Hobie 16... I just hate changes really. I am a Hobie sailor/racer first and a Hobie company man second. You can often find me defending what I think is right for the class.

A statement was made about all of the differences in a Wave sail as evidence of something. The Wave was never intended as a race boat, so we COULD make changes to make the boat better. Actually, we have made very few changes as it is. I have no idea what Rick is looking at as far as luff curve changes. Maybe he has seen an original proto type sail or old Mylar ones that we had from pre-production days.

We have two things going on here.

Some people want changes / some people don't want changes.

It is a difficult line to walk. You just can't do it right for everyone. Sometimes we have to make changes due to supplier issues or safety issues (CompTip), other times we are forced to make changes to keep up with the market place (lowered boat weights in the early 80's) and sometimes we are forced to make changes due to popular demand and class decisions. Just review what is going on in the 14/16 forum recently.

Rule change proposals for Hobie 14/16

Excellent response…Hobie is lucky to have you on their front line.

Bob

I do see your point and I understand. Here's what I'm saying: If my one design class has a set of rules for me, I'm going to do my best to follow them. A new boat might be the answer, but it's usually only at the Nationals level that you'll see this kind of competitition.

Wyatt

Wonderful responses, Matt- Hobie is indeed lucky to have you around.
I just have to chime in here and ask about the sails.
I recently ordered a new class-legal jib from Murrays. Due to a shipping error, I was first sent an aftermarket jib, and sailed it for a few days. Murrays quickly sent out my Hobie branded jib, and informed me that not only are they the same product, but they are from the same sail loft! The only difference being the Hobie trademark.
I respect all that you said above, but if this is in fact the same sail (essentially) what is the reason for such a drastic price difference? I fully support buying the class-legal parts, and I would even choose to by the Hobie brand if there were a moderate difference in price, but if the same sail is really being sold at a huge price spread, I have to sit back and wonder.
I really don't want to drag you into a full discourse on Hobie's sourcing and product economics, but would you please tell me a little about the Hobie 18 jib?

While we are on the subject how about the H16 bare tiller tube

See previous thread "Saving $$$ with Generics? "

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=all

The conclusion I reached is that Hobie seem to plough alot of money back into the sport, and there is more to the cost of a product than simply making it. I beleive a hobie 16 is very overpriced but I still wouldn't be without mine.

Without Hobie there probably wouldn't even be a beachcat.

Gareth
www.fourhulls.com

That one is interesting... Murrays (who is not an authorized Hobie Cat dealer anyway) sent you some kind of "after market" jib that was not "class legal" for the 18? Certainly that jib was not made by Hobie Cat! We make all of our (USA model cats) Hobie Sails in our loft here in Oceanside California. We do not make an after market jib that is not class legal for an 18, nor do we sell one that is at some different price structure. No idea where Murrays came up with that idea. Sounds like they just made a mistake and sent you some sail from another manufacturer that they sell. It disturbs me that they are trying to pass this off as "the same" or from our loft. All of our dacron sails are made from 5.6 oz dacron cloth. You will find that the cheaper after market sails are likely much lighter weight material.

We do sell a "recreational" jib for the 16 that is roller furling.

Hmmmm, interesting....
Well, I will say that upon closer inspection, they do apear to be different sails. At least the zipper is a different make, and there are telltails and windows on the Hobie jib, which is really important to me.
I am still glad I was able to purchase the Hobie branded jib, and even happier that it is different than the "generic" one.
Thanks for your time and your quick answers, Matt.
By the way, I just LOVE my Hobie 18!

A couple of years ago my wife decided to get me a new main for 18 for my birthday. She went through Murray's, and ended up getting the sails they sell from Super Sailmakers (she wasn't aware of the class requirement). She ordered the heavier cloth version, which is similar to the weight of the Hobie sail. With the heavier cloth, the sail cost about the same as the Hobie sail. It did not come with telltales, numbers, or windows as standard. The claim is that the Super Sailmakers sails are the same cut and dimensions as the stock sails.

See the attached photo - the old stock sail is on the bottom, the new non-stock sail on top. Luff, head and foot are lined up. Quite a bit less area. I wouldn't have been able to use my battens without cutting them down. The sail build quality was excellent - but it was not the same cut and dimension.

We returned this sail and got a new Hobie one. Much better! Came with numbers, telltales, windows, and the area was actually a little more on the leech.

I looked at the Murray cataloge after you guys were posting this and it is a bit misleading. They list in the sidebar for Replacement sails for H14, H16, and TheMightyHobie18 the different color and weight options and state that they are not class legal for racing. Then in the sail selection chart, they list "Aftermarket Sails" and "Factory Sails". Saying "Factory Sails" leads one to believe that these ARE from Hobie and class legal but it says nothing about that. I wonder what they mean by "Factory Sails"?

http://www.murrays.com/archive/49.pdf

(Matt - I think your responses here are "spot on" and shows what a standup company Hobie is. Thanks for your input).

I stated that Hobie Cat USA makes all of the current USA model boat sails here in Oceanside, California. That is correct, except for one sail. The Hobie 20 jib is built by our former sail loft manager's loft in San Diego. This is because of the way it is cut and put together and we feel that the personal attention given to the jib on this boat is very important. It requires a keen eye more than any other sail we are building here.

Hi Matt...

Just a quick thought about possible options for Hobie customers looking for a Hobie trampoline replacement. Many other segments of industry produce different quality items for their customers, giving them a choice of "good", "better", or "best". Then people who may not sail often, or who might have a tight financial situation, could choose to purchase a Hobie replacement part that best suited their needs. We would understand that the "good" Hobie tramp may not last as long, or carry as lengthy a warranty, as the "best" one. It would be like the difference in price for a plain white Hobie sail vs. a multi-coloured one. Both are class legal. Would it not be possible for Hobie to manufacture (or sub-contract) a slightly less labour-intensive, but class-legal "Hobie" tramp?

Just a thought...

Mark Owens
1976 H16 sail # 19857