F18HT Development = Good or Bad?

I hesitate to bring this up because I don't want to say anything detrimental to any catamaran classes and I have always admired the F18hts. However, I'm really interested in everyone else's take on the following article. I know this won't go down easy with a few of ya' so I'm coating my dry suit with fire retardant spray as we speak - FLAME ON.

This would scare the poopie out of me if I owned one of these boats. Seriously - how can a normal person keep up with someone who's spending all that dough on development of a production boat? F18HT too heavy? He bought three sails for the boat in a day! Talking about the carbon fiber mast: "The mast is a beast. We can barely right the boat". Holy Cow Dung Batman!! C'mon let's flip my 6.0NA - I'll show you a beast to right! This guy is probably unloading $20,000 to better a $12k(??) Javelin F18HT. With this boat (class) being selected for the ICCT you can also bet that a few more will develop it further with a lot of cash leaving the regular folks in the dust and with outdated equipment. Do you think this is going to healthy for the class? How about for the sport?

The F18HT Bleeding Edge (literally!)

I don't know what the class rules are for the Formula 18HT, but if all the stuff he is doing to that boat is within what the Formula allows, I think it's great! This is not a one-design class -- it's a FORMULA class.

Everyone keeps lamenting that we don't have a "development" class. If the F18HT class can fill some of this gap, what's wrong with that? And gains will never be made if we don't have some people with enough money to take a chance on experimenting.

He has no idea whether his modifications are going to improve the boat. And he has no idea whether his modifications are going to help him win any races. But he is willing to take the gamble. If his modifications work, there may be ideas that can be useful to other existing classes and also can have an influence on future designs.

Being a Formula class, just as the A-Class is, I assume that people who cannot afford to spend a fortune modifying an already expensive boat can build a boat in their garage and apply all their own creativity and inventions and come up with a very fast boat that costs less than a production F-18HT. Would you also object to that?

Anyway, is this kind of development good for the F-18HT class? That is yet to be determined, but it has not seemed to hurt the A-Class. Is it good for the sport of sailing? Definitely!

You've got to be kidding me...



EIGHT pounds?

I think that I've clearly defined my thoughts on silliness such as this in past threads.

Also I'd like to point out that this guy seems to think that Carbon is the end-all-be-all of construction materials. He seems to know enough about it to be dangerous...



Really, I'm not familiar with the design or construction of the F18HT boats, but making things out of carbon, that are not suited for that material, can cause failure.

(Reminding the readers that this is coming from a guy thats intending on purchasing an all-carbon tornado..heh)

Just a diversion to this thread:

MaughanH17, you do know that you can not use that Carbon Tornado in a Tornado class event and get scored ?

Also a side note. The Tornado class was approaced by the ICCT, but the class board did not want the Tornado in that event.. There has also been some discussion within the Tornado class about wether the Olympic status is 'a good ting' for the Tornado class or a hindrance. But that is another discussion.

Over to the F18HT: If it is within the class rules, of course he can spend his money on 'go fast' gear. He will either kill off the class, start a new trend or get depressed by his boats performance when racing and quit sailing
I have to agree with Mary, if it is within the formula, why not ? Something good might eventually come out of it. But when he wants to adjust the minimum weight limit of the class, that's when the brakes have to be put on in my opinion.
Mary mentions the 'garage' option. I think that option is dvindling fast these days. Most people dont have the skills to design and build competitive boats these days. Just handling pre-preg carbon is quite laboursome. An autoclave is out of the question for most garage builders, as is the math for lay-up schemes and foam/glass composite panels.

But obviously, money is not an issue for this sailor. It will be fun to watch wether this affects the F18HT class.

I'll bite on this...never been flamed before. We are entitled to our "opinions", right.

I say that there are always going to be those individuals that bring up the money issue in sailing. If you have the resources to modify your boat (or any other toy you may have) and that is what you want to do.... then so be it. Not everyone is interested in how to hold together a 25 year old sail or jury-rigging from Ace Hardware.

Fast cars, motorcycles, power boats, monohulls, skis,.................have all been tweaked with money. If one can not afford (or has other priorities) for their money, then they have to accept the fact that they can't play with those that can.

I am asking myself if it is worth posting this because of the heat I will probably get from the "bailing wire" crowd, but I'll stick my neck out because it is "my opinion".
Dave

I agree with Mary, good thing for the sport, not sure about the class though. I suppose the class rules are open enough for the name, it is after all F18HT (High-tech) No mention of one-design, just a box-rule.
Good for the sport : One-design classes like Hobie 16 & Dart 18 etc insist on enforcing rules which were drawn up 20-30 years ago, when things were different - at the time dacron was much cheaper than "high-tech" materials such as mylar, so they were protecting their members from high costs. Now the cost difference is small enough to warrant the extra expense, as the mylar sails will outlast & outperform the dacron (my opinion). This only came about because other forward-thinking classes allowed the use of higher-tech materials, increasing the demand for them, which in turn reduced the manufacturing cost. On this premise, if enough demand is created, maybe one day carbon beams & masts will only cost a fraction more than aluminium. This will only happen if these ideas are tried, tested & proven to be better than the current norm.
Regarding boats for "ordinary folk" these are clearly not, but suit sailors with large funds, who indirectly will help the future development of cats and other yachts. It`s good we have them, they aren`t always the best sailors, but have a lot of cash, and will help develop the sport. Maybe that`s why we tend to dislike them, we envy their ability to spend heaps of cash on boats !
For the rest of us, there are 3 formula classes that allow for all types of crew weights, configurations, budgets and levels of bravery.
Me, even if I had the money, I`d have no interest in doing the Little America`s Cup, don`t want millions of tv viewers saying " who`s that guy who keeps holding up the start of the next race ?"

Cheers
Steve

Yes, it would be a challenge, wouldn't it? But that's what creativity and experimentation and development are all about. Maybe someday somebody will basket-weave a boat out of palm fronds and figure out a way to make it stiff and watertight. That kind of thinking won't happen if everyone starts believing the only way to lighter and faster is spending money or having an autoclave in your garage.

Jake,

Way to stir the pot.

If its not the weight issue, then its money.
For all but the very few select persons neither really matters, as the reason they got beat was most likely that they were out sailed.

If you are serious about competing, then you need equipment that is in the ball park with everyone else, 20 year old blown out sails will not quite do it. But we can not place a money limit effectivly. What about the guy sailing 16s with the new boat everyother year and new sails every year. Are we going to throw him out. At the least he is pumping a lot of good used boats into the market to hopefully grow the sport.

There are a bunch of voices on this forum always bitching about wanting more formula and/or box rule designs. Now they are bitching that you should not spend any money. Any new formula or box rule will have a lot of money and changes being done early in it existance as people try to sort it out. As it matures that optimum configurations will be sorted out and changes minimized. Look at the A-cat, not that much new development is being done now and several designs are out there all very competitive with each other.

I think its great to have new stuff out there. If this guy want to be a "technoweenie" and spend a lot of money, more power to him, but he better be spending at least equal time sailing it or it will not matter.


Matt

Rolf: I know that I wont be class legal. I don't mind, I just like going fast and being the first one back to the bar

I sail a F18ht in Europe. In former times I have other Katamarane sails Hobbies, A-Class, Taipan it am all good Katamarane. But over with "us" at Regattats to keep up in front I bought a F18ht.
Different Katamarane for different People in different sail Districts.

For me the F18ht great I sail is alone and too second.
The Speed is the same as with the F20 with us at the Lake

Greet Steve

Jake
Time will tell. You will see the development of soft wing sails. They can offer all the upsides of an illegal hard wing but fit into the rules. They have very little sheet loads because you are not "sheeting the sail in".
See image

"Most people don't have the skills to design and build competitive boats these days. Just handling pre-preg carbon is quite laboursome. An autoclave is out of the question for most garage builders, as is the math for lay-up schemes and foam/glass composite panels."

I agree that the techniques you mention are not for garage designers but,

1) These techniques are for volume builders, there are other techniques that yield very similar results that are suitable for the garage builder

2) The 18HT is not cutting edge in terms of weight and materials. A platform weight of 120 kg is feasible using wood epoxy carbon, aluminum beams, and carbon mast. If you used synthetic rigging you might be able to use an aluminum mast.

3) You could probably modify a 5.5 uni or Inter 18 to come close. If you did, you would end up lighter aloft than a purpose built 18HT.

Yes, a garage designer could compete in 18HT

As a side issue, one day this winter put all your Tornado's standing rigging in a pile and weigh it, I did, it shocked me

I fall on the "go for it" side with Mary.
Some reasons:
This is one person spending thousands of dollars to improve on a boat design which is already very advanced.
He is funding the developement that the companies and normal people can't.
The Class seems well organized and could quickly outlaw anything which causes problems(the iF18 Class outlawed canted daggerboards).

Tad, in light boats, weight is critical. A sailor can't be sure that he will have a good start or pick the correct side of the course, but he can make sure that the boat is as efficient (light, smooth, clean) as possible. Most A Class boats come from the factory about 5 lbs underweight to allow the owner to bring it up to EXACTLY 165.0lbs.

Sorry to be slow on comprehension, but who wrote the Bleeding Edge article?

He was refered to on the main page...

Peter Johnston wrote the article.

Jake,
Your original question was good or bad? You didnt define good or bad for for who, but if you are interested in a 18HT owners perspective, then here goes:

As a 18HT owner with I am very excited by the development Peter and others are doing to this boat. We had issues with the rudders not kicking up which Randy and others quickly solved this issue with a simple fix. We have an issue with the Jav2 that the rear beam hits in chop, slowing it down, Peter is experimenting with a solution. As far as sails, the class has already determined that the stock Bim sails are fast, faster than a couple of other prototypes that Randy did, but they are not very sturdy and they dont reef. So you dont really need new sails to compete, the BIM Sails are fast.

As far as other people doing development to the HT, I have seen lots of interesting stuff fromt the guys that were going to do the '03 Worrell in terms of rigging. Some of the class members are adding carbon spin poles and carbon booms and mid pole sheeting system. Some are also experimenting with new and different ways to snuff the spin (Randy's tennis racket is an example). I think this all good for the class and in the end, we want to grow the class. So the rules will hopefully work the developement to that end. We have decided that we are going to outlaw solid sails and outlaw getting the boat foil borne (althought I think that would be cool and probably pretty damn fast.)

But, I think that I wont necessarily have to spend a ton of money to be competitive for two reasons. The first is that I can pick and choose the modifications that really add speed and fit for my style of racing. For example I dont think carbon rudder castings will buy you that much speed and around the bouys the current spin snuffer system works great. I am psyched that Peter bought 3 sets of sails, now when I want new sails, I know who to talk to and it will keep my cost down, because I can make an informed choice and hopefully buy the best sails that will last for a couple of years. The second reason I dont think I will need to spend a ton of money to compete is that this boat has a pretty steep learning curve and being a light boat it is easy to mess up go slow. Sailing against the top sailors in this class has quickly shown that they are crushing me on the course because they are tuned into the boat, not because they have tuned the boat to be faster.

In other words, the sailor is making the boat go fast, the boat isnt making sailor go fast. So, no I dont think we will see everyone rushing to do all the mods Peter did. I like the fact that someone else is thinking about these problems/opportunities because I dont have a huge pile of cash to throw at this boat, and I dont have the knowledge to know what the best ideas are, so my plan is to let other people sort it out and only do the really fast mods after they have been really tested and proven.

The thing I like about the 18HT class is that it is open and we have few rules, I like the flexibility to make mods to my boat without worrying if it is class legal. I also like that we have very open communication about the boats. We all seem open and willing to learn and share ideas. I like this.

So, yes I think it will be good for the class. And, no I am not worried that I will have to spend a ton of cash to keep up. Will the difference between a carbon boom and the stock aluminum make you win more races? No, being a better sailor will win more races. And I agree wiht Mary that it will also be good for catsailing. We have added a bunch of guys from monohull and dighy crowd and thats good for the sport. Class building is a whole different topic.

And by the way, thanks for noticing the new web site. We are glad you are all checking it out periodically.

Bill - 18HT class

the latest prepregs do not require autoclaves. Vac bagging is within most home builders ability. then one needs an oven that gets to 100C.
Home builders have built these. So its not impossible.

I think that most of this is harmless tinkering, but clearly overkill to get back the 8 pounds. To make it class legal, he's gonna need some lead when he's done (can you buy carbon lead?). A lot of us are threatened by big spenders (quick, name some RICH catsailors other than Nigel and WF), but I agree, we can't and shouldn't legislate dollars. Certainly not in a development class. Sure the boat could drop 20-30 pounds, but then the class has to worry about obsoleting EVERY boat out there. Ain't gonna happen. Don't worry, be happy. The boats ARE gonna get faster, he may just be changing things quicker than most of us could. I admire anyone who sails this at 280 lbs; think I might have bought a smaller-than-max sail and mast :-) Not like he couldn't get another set later... See, I'm sniping at the $ too :-) Could be worse; could be dropping lots more into a lead sled to make it go .1 knot faster. Finally, I'll note that there isn't a real min. wt. 2 person spin boat beachcat class like the A-Cats (unless you count the M20 as it's own class?). There's a market niche to further split the fleets :-) Of course, even the A-Cats COULD get lighter...
Chris

Bill,
This is slightly off topic, but I just have one minor problem with the new "U.S." 18HT website. Under "Rules" everything as far as measurements and weights is metric on the website. Now, I am pretty old and it is hard for me to figure the conversions out in my head, so I have to resort to the conversion formulas in the back of my dictionary and the use of a calculator.

If this is indeed a U.S.18HT website, it would be nice to accommodate us uneducated people and put all those numbers into whatever form it is that we call it in this country, like ounces and pounds and feet and square feet and cubic feet and stuff like that.

Just a thought. When you are trying to grow a class and get more people interested, it is going to turn people off when they are reading specs in a language they don't understand.

Mary,
Good point, I agree with you. I always get lost with metric. The only issue is the temptation to round up when you get a fraction if you convert. For example when you convert 20sq meters to sq ft you get 65.6168. We dont want people telling their sailmaker that they want a 66 sq ft spin.

But you bring up a good point, we call the class 18HT, as in 18 feet and then all the rules measurements are metric.

Bill

Just a summary :


"The Bleeding edge !"

"When we first sailed our Bimare Javelin 2 USA-45, my 11 year old son and crew, Nick, immediately started lobbying for carbon beams. “Those aluminum beams look so old fashioned Dad."

"I figured we might as well try to get the BIM properly sorted out."

"WF figures our platform is 8 lbs over minimum"

"Fed up with our leaky platform, and the racking of the hulls (independent motion of the two hulls), we began looking for a way to make the platform better, and lighter"

"Finally, we want to rid the platform of the bronco character when pressing downwind in waves. The aft beam is simply too low for the platform"

"And the beam of the BIM looked slightly under max."

Our hulls were pretty scratched up when we got our boat, and the protruding seam can only add to drag"

"The gelcoat looks THICK, so we’re grinding away the seam, scratches and gelcoat"

"Both of rudder heads show voids in the aluminum castings, so still looking at what to do."

"The mast is a beast. We can barely right the boat"

"I asked Ben Hall if he’d make a new lighter mast for us, and he basically said he wouldn’t"

"We also went to a fatter spin halyard that does not absorb water for better grip while hoisting, and lighter weight."

"The Cunningham will get a total re-think in the coming months. The diamonds have been replaced with Dyform wire which stretches a lot less."

"The standard Petrucci main looks pretty good, but not constructed for any sort of long term abuse"

"The weight of the tube/sprit is about 6 lbs, which is what the old alum sprit weighed. And it’s at the maximum length…..about 11” longer than the standard aluminum sprit."

"Goran Marstrom was right. This class has picked too high of a minimum weight. The hulls, beams, trampolines weigh 193 lbs!!!!! "

"REGARDLESS, we’re really enjoying the boat."


Hummmmm, is this "a killer review" or just "a killing review"

Think of iot this way...without development and people willing to experiment with the "bleeding edge" and spending $$$, where would we be? We'd all be sailing Albacore's from the 1940's.

Read Brethwaite's book "High Performance Sailing" for some extremely valid points about why having open classes like the 18 footer skiffs is critical in advancing the sport.


One manufacturer classes such as Hobie14/16 are operated primarily as a business to keep the company going. All boat components/parts must be purchased through the recognized manufacturer, the idea being it keeps all boats nearly equal in performance with the added benefit of keeping the company profitable. One drawback is that as the class ages, new materials appear on the market that have potentially lower costs and improved properties. These can't be readily adopted into the class because this would violate the "all boats identical" rule and there is little or no incentive for the manufacturer to go and re-design components when everyone must come to them for the older stuff anyway (i.e. no competition in the component market).

Now compare this to a more open, multi-manufacturer class such as Tornado. This boat appeared on the scene at the end of the 1960's, pretty close to the Hobie16 I believe. Unlike a lot of other classes, there is no designated manufacturer and only the class membership gets to determine the rules, not a constructer company...so the rules are more about the sailor's desires than about profits for the company. But people say...the only real Tornado builder is Marstrom...which is correct...for the moment. THey came up with a better way to make the boats that no one else on the scene could compete with. This lead to most other builders going out of business...but there is no reason another builder won't ever challenge Marstrom in the future.

While is it obvious to everyone that the Hobie is easily the more successful boat in terms of numbers sold and profits generated, it certainly is not the better sailing boat from a performance standpoint. But more importantly, unlike the Tornado, which continued to improve over the past 30 years with changes in construction techniques and rig development, the H16 today is basically stuck at the same performance level it had back in the early '70's. Some think this is terrific...that's fine, enjoy it. But for me, I don't like the idea of a stagnated technology. I want improvement & evolution. I expect that form cars I drive and in the boat I sail.

No one is forcing you to get into an arms race of spending...there are lots of classes out there that outlaw this.

Dve Carlson asked who wrote the article that started this thread-

His name is Peter Johnstone. Yes, JOHNSTONE as in J-Boats. His fther and uncle started J-Boats and designed and built the famous J-24, J-35, J-22, etc. Peter also ran Laser/Sunfish for some time and started the OD-14 class(one-design version of the I-14).

Peter is currently building Melvin Morrelli designed Gunboat Catamarans. His tie-in with Melvin Morrelli should prove interesting with their new 18HT design!

The 18HT class seems to be making some pretty big strides. This new wave of developmental work and the tie-in with the Little America's Cup will be a boon to this class.

Exactly! If you're worried about sailing against a rich guy whith all the latest go-fast goodies, sell your boat and buy a H-16 so you can re-live the glory days of the 70s. Don't buy a FxHT class boat and then complain about it's development!

I do get the point someone was trying to make- there is a market niche for a one-design non-developement 18' boat right now, whith super-strict limits on the boats, but no rules about where you get your parts from. A 'po-boys' racing fleet of currently-modern boats that can be built without high-tech methods.