Nacra 5.2 lost at sea last night in Va Beach

A couple of local sailors decided to take their 5.2 out yesterday afternoon for a little ocean sailing in 35+ winds with gusts over 45. Needless to say, it was a heck of a ride, but they hit something under the water and snapped both daggers clean off at the hulls. They flipped and the sails were shredded under water. Fortunately, they had a cell phone and some flares, so they were rescued by a coast guard helicopter. They said it was heart breaking flying away and seeing the boat for the last time.

Regardless, if anyone hears about a beached 5.2 along the VA/NC coast, please let me know. They are friends of mine and want to salvage anything they can.

Boy, it's good to hear about people being smart on the water!

WOW! If the guys are all right, let's get their story!

I wonder if anyone has ever had a similar incident?

Jake, were you being serious or sarcastic?

I was serious! They had flares and a cell phone - they were thinking ahead and kept a bad situation from getting much worse.

But, on the other hand, was it smart to be out there in the first place?

It was pretty predictable that they would have a problem in those winds. And a helicopter rescue is always a very expensive and dangerous operation -- dangerous for both the sailors and for the rescue people.

As far as I can tell, the problem they had wasn't related to the conditions, but rather something under the water. I wonder what it was that they hit.

You're right Mary. When I read what Jake wrote, I figured that he was serious, and I do agree with him to a point. They were trying to plan ahead, but the first thing I thought of was --- why go out in inprotected waters in those conditions? I quit thinking I was bullet proof over 20 years ago.

A cell phone and road flares (yes, they brought road flares) hardly sounds like planning ahead to me. They are so lucky to have gotten a signal let alone reach the coast guard. I don't see what a cell phone a road flares would do for them a mile out to sea.
It was an off-shore breeze - or rather blow. No chance of getting pushed back to the shore.

I'm glad they are okay, but I truly hope they reconsider going out in conditions like that. It's just plain stupid.

Tracie

Tracie: FYI, I've gotten cell phone signal more than 3 miles out while cruising off key west.

Its amazing what the reception on those things is like when you have a clear LOS to a tower with nothing in between.

the dagger boards probably broke from a large broad side wave, which would be classified as 'something in the water'

I just think we all need to be reminded that:

Rescuers cannot isolate the direction of a cellular signal. You get a signal, make a distress call, battery goes dead or unit becomes damaged by water, next thing you know you are no where near your original location and your rescuers have no way to track you.

Unlike a VHF radio, a cell phone call is heard by one party.

While having a cell phone as a secondary communication device is good, its a far cry from being 'smart on the water' to rely upon it as your sole source of communications, especially when you are heading out on the water in extreme conditions on a catamaran.

Tracie

I'm guessing that you've never actually tested the "waterproof" vhf radios as to just how waterproof they are.

I've been through a couple already, one good dunk and they're toast.

Alright - 'smart' may have been giving them a little too much credit but they could have been a lot dumber.

STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!

Did these individuals think about their families before pulling this stunt? Do they know the cost to taxpayers for their rescue due to poor judgement.

I hope no one thinks these guys are "cool". Incidents like this reflect poorly on multihull sailing and its community.

I'll sign my name to this one.

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 147

Sorry--I took the weekend off and didn't reply to anything. I got a little more info from them, but they are probably going to give a full story to Damon on thebeachcats.com.

I told Tracie that they had road flares, but they actually had a gun. They were on the phone with the Coast Guard and shot off 4 flares (out of 6!) before they were spotted. Part of the problem was that they thought they were somewhere else, so the CG was looking about a mile or two down the coast.

When they hit something, they were moving, but not sideways. I think the sideways wave theory sounds the best, but they claim they were going pretty fast.

Granted, they weren't too bright going out in that kind of wind, but they were experienced in very high winds. The wind was blowing off shore, so it was like glass for about 150 yards, then it turned hellish. I think the only other thing that would have helped would have been an EPRB. I'm planning on buying one this winter since I'm thinking about some long trips next year.

Jake,

That's true, they could have done worse. Sorry if it seemed like I was picking on you, I was just using your statement to make a point about the safety.

Tracie

I know I'm going to catch a lot of flak for this, so I'm equipping the Pb jacket here.

Would I have gone out in 35knot winds given the opportunity? I'd probably do it if I was comfortable with the seaworthiness of my vessel. I'd never do it alone.

I wouldn't go out into the ocean probably. If I did, It'd be barely outside the breakers maybe 200 feet off the beach.

I think we all sail for different reasons, personally, I do it for the thrill. Always hanging onto the edge of disaster, teetering on a fine line between break neck speed and being in the drink. You can't get more thrilling than 35 knots. I've done 25-30 before, and I'm more than confident in my skills to handle 35 in "survival mode."

Some of you guys are getting on them for not being adequately prepared. Some of you are pissed off that they went out there in the first place. Point is that all that was lost was a material possession that can be replaced. The coasties got to do what our taxpayer dollars pay for... no harm, no foul in my book. I know its going to be an unpopular opinion, but thats just the way I see it.

Flame away, tell me how young and stupid I am.

Nobody needs to say it - they can see it.

Tracie

ouch!

Its ok... the Pb jacket protects me from high velocity projectiles.

Sorry you can't relate to my viewpoint.

I guess that *was* kinda mean - I should have refrained from posting that.

Tracie

Yep, I will tell you your response is young and stupid.

The boats we sail are not designed for these conditions. It is poor seamanship to attempt a "stunt" like this. If you feel the need to be on the water in +30 knots of wind, take up sailboarding as there is much better equipment designed for these conditions.

Maugan17,

Let me revise my previous post a little -- I quit thinking I was bullet proof over 25 years ago.

Yes, I've sailed in 40 knots of wind on a cat, and in over 60 knots on a leaner (monohull) 250 miles off shore, but not by choice. If you have a boat, whether it is a dingy or a ocean going vessel, you will someday get caught in severe weather -- that is one thing. But, to leave the beach or marina and sail into it is just plain and simple poor judgement, and irresponsible. I agree with Tracie and Acat144. You want a thrill in 35+ knots, get a windboard, or how about a kite board. Man you could really get some air in that wind!

Trust me, take care of yourself, you may live longer than you think and wished you had.

Hmmm Let's See:

Nacra 5.2 = $2-3K used in great condition, this was probably was not even close to that condition or value.

Potential Loss of a Million Dollar plus Coast Guard Chopper and Crew of 3-4 rescuing a couple of Stupid Thrill Seekers, well it Ain't Priceless and to say that's what we pay them for, well that's just a Crazy to Say.
The predicted Weather conditions were talked about all over the news up here prior to that day, even most of the Windsurfers packed it in that day, and they sail IN the Bay, not on the Oceanfront.

As Bob Hodges Said, "Stupid Stupid Stupid" any way you spell it. Those folks were one step away from the 2003 Darwin Awards

BTW 200 feet off the Beach is Still the Breakers in those conditions on the North End, so that idea needs rethinking.

One of the Coastie's mottos is "you have to go, but you don't have to come back" - I'd feel bad if anything happened to a CG crew while trying to pull my stupid butt out of the water for something I could have prevented. It also costs money to fly, and yes they budget for going out to get people, but every time extra is more spent.

I think sometimes we get cavalier about doing things just because we believe there's a rescue just a radio call away. I think there should be more overall pride in not needing to call for help.

In all of this the risky part to me is that it was an offshore blow, meaning that you're guaranteed to blown away from shore in a wreck.

All of us being sailors understand the idea of pushing the envelope in one way or another. Each persons envelope is in a different spot for different reasons and we all have our own ideas on how to approach it. Chuck Yeager and Neil Armstrong may not be who they are today had they not found limits that needed breaking. Wheather these sailors were out of their mind or curious to where their limits were, they learned a lesson. Yes they learned it the hard way, but is there really any other way to learn? Stupid would be without life jackets, cell phone and flares. So they obviously had an idea what they were getting themselves into. I raise my glass to those sailors. They wanted to know something, planed for the worst and survived. Risk is what you make it. There is calculated risk (capsizing, breaking something, storms) and there is uncalculated risk (crap you thought would never happen). But to a coast guard pilot and crew they are all the same needing the same attention. So if you're worried about the CG personal, then you should sell your boat and take up knitting because you never know when you might need them to put there lives on the line for you. You all have valid points, but they are your points tailored to your ideas, morales and abilities. Whats important is that you each understand your own limits and abilities in every aspect of sailing. Sailing is fun yes, but it doesn't mean it's not risky even on the calmest days.

Back to the original question...has anyone seen or heard about their boat?

Actually, having broken the boards in that kind of wind was
probably a BLESSING, as you don't want the boards in that kind
of wind to absorb the shock value of each gust, and stay upright.
(remember wind pressure increases to the second power)

As to value of sailing to Windward in 35-40 winds, it is futile.
Once you bear off one or two degrees to much, it is instant capsize.
You can carefully feather your way, just to stay UPRIGHT with very
little forward progress. But if you bear off a fraction to much you are over.
Not to mention a slight wind shift will be instant capsize.

As for experience sailors? I doubt it, as VMG is very close to nil in
40 knots wind with no reef. If they were reefed I would say experienced.

Perhaps, one of the forum's nautical engineers would like to show mathematically
the wind drag on the boat/sail, and lack of sufficient righting moment (no reef)
to keep head way, results in a extremely poor VMG.

I'm with crowd that says these guys were clueless.

I have to say I agree with Tracie on this one.
Maughan17, Have you ever sailed in 35+ knots? Not gusting to 35 but 35 true(gusts here on the Outer Banks were over 50 easy that day). I have done it numerous times even had a gust of 60+ kn(small waterspout/Worrell 2002)hit my I-20, sent me butt over teakettle, but I can honestly say I never pushed off into those conditions for fun. Each time was during a race(not that racings not fun) in which you didn't have much choice short of withdrawing from the entire event.With sponsors and a large finacial investment that's not much of a choice.
If you ever plan to go out in snot like that and consider the Coast Guard or an epirb as an OPTION ,you just shouldn't go out. Calling the Coast Guard is not like calling a cab.
Not to mention a 5.2 is a little small for that. Your pretty much guarateed a few good flips and the offshore direction makes that a probable suicide.
Tough on boat parts too.

Just something to think about,
Todd A. Hart
Team Cat Fever
p.s. For the waterproof radio, try putting it in a waterproof radio bag. I've had the same radio for 4 Worrell 1000s,1 Tybee 500, and a dozen and a half other distance races.

Todd, that is a good point you brought up about the pressure to leave the beach in a race when you would never do it just for fun.

Today I was able to interview one of the two sailors on the NACRA. Hopefully the details of the story will clear up some of the speculation. Although I doubt it will change the mind of anyone willing to state an opinion without hearing the facts first.
[color:"red"]
Catamaran Sailors Rescued off Virginia Beach [/color]

Mary, the one time I intentionally sailed my cat in winds over 30 knots was at Navarre Beach during the Juanas Good Times, I had driven 500 miles and there was no way I was staying on the beach. But that is such a sheltered area it doesn't really compare to sailing in high winds in the open ocean, or even the gulf. High winds and Good Times

While this story has plenty of first-hand information, it is definitely from the perspective of the "adventurous" souls who went out sailing.
Damon, what's the likelihood of getting an interview from the perspective of the Coast Guard personnel? Any possibility of interviewing them?

Yes, I'm working on that. I wanted to get the details of the coasties involved, including the name of the rescue diver if possible. I called the Portsmouth station but I have to call back tommorrow and go through the right channels to get a statement.

The facts?
Yes, the fact that two sailors who “Do this all the time”, went out in conditions that they thought they could handle but wound up in such a drastic turn of events that they needed to be plucked out of the sea by Coasties.
I think it sums it up perfectly.
It doesn’t matter how much experience you have, or how many times you’ve been in extreme conditions.
Weather and sea states can change in seconds.
There are no heroics in being rescued by the Coast Guard.

Tracie

With the risk of making more enemies than friends on here, and pissing off people I hold in high regard, I wont take the time to respond to all this. All I can say is this:

A) Yes I have sailed in 30 knots sustained in the Wrightsville Beach Channel, within visual distance of the coastie station. If you've ever been through there, you know that its not the most forgiving piece of aqua-state. 35+ knots? I don't think so, but then again, I don't trust my rig in that kind of wind.

B) I don't particularly have issue with these guys going out in the first place. I agree they should have had better preparations, like a stobe, and perhaps a dye pack or a floating ribbon. If you place that much stock in a VHF, then I'd bring one of those too. I do, but thankfully have never had to use it.

C) If it costs so much for the heli to just "leave the ground" then I guess they should never use it. Much less fly it up and down the beach on a perfecly blue skied summer day like they do all the time.

Let's put this into perspective:

Remember the editor and a group that went offshore on a Hobie 18 (was that Texas?)? If I remember correctly, no lifejackets (not to mention other safety equipment), and they couldn't even right their boat? They were lucky that they eventually drifted to shore....now that's stupid and THAT gives catamarans a bad reputation.

Yeah, these guys shouldn't have gone out...I wouldn't have. Perhaps the offshore wind blowing the breakers flat gave them a false sense of security - I can see how I might be lulled by that. However, I think their error in judgement is less in magnitude than in the previous example - at least they had a clue.

Hmmm, which is worse: to be ignorant because you did not know enough to know better; or to be stupid because you DID know enough to know better?

As for the comment about how our boats aren't designed for this kind of wind...

I hope you've never sped in your car over the posted speed limit.

The roads "aren't designed" for that kind of speed.

See, had they been out in a boardless boat we may not be having this discussion.

Viva le G-Cat

I'd say that in those conditions I would definately want more than a cell phone and a pack of flares. An EPIRB (or better yet, GPIRB) would have been a much better idea! Along with some food and water in a water-tight bag.

My friend often sailed his Prindle 18 in heavy-weather conditions- he didn't want to leave the beach if he couldn't fly a hull. One day he went out with two girls on his boat in a stiff blow (20s). He capsized during a tack, as the boat went up a wave, both girls (wearing thongs, and having applied sunscreen to their bottoms) slid to the back of the boat. The wind caught the trampoline and it flipped over backwards, then settled to the normal capsize position. The girls grabbed ahold of the stern of the boat so it couldn't swing into the wind and it turned turtle. Despite all their efforts, the three of them could not bring it out of this position. The water was just under 30' deep, and the mast pounded into the bottom during each wave trough. The mast eventually snapped and they were left to drifting in off-shore winds. He unpinned the shrounds and pulled what he could to the surface, managing to salvage the jib. They had only two life-jackets, which the girls wore, and wrapped themselves up in the jib to keep out of the wind and share body-heat. None of them had told anyone they were going out sailing, and two days later a police officer noticed that his car and trailer had not moved since the day of the storm, and called the Coast Guard. They found them later that day, 22 miles offshore, and plucked them out of the sea.

He must have been in his mid-late 30s when this happened, and had been sailing since he was 14 years old. He carried insurance on his boat and used it to buy a P-19 which he sails to this day, albeit more conservatively and with a cooler/bag containing plenty of water, juice, and snacks (crackers and such). He told me the most amazing thing about his ordeal was the beauty of the sky at night- he never knew you could see so many stars.

I'm not going to berate these guys for making a poor decision. I believe they realize their mistake at this point.

One thing I have noticed is that in high wind the 5.2 boards seems to snap. I've seen this now a couple of times. I don't know if it's related to the age of the boards or not.

I've also made some poor choices along with many others. I recall a Steeplechase that I pushed off with an offshore breeze and didn't realize the velocity or the danger. Many others pushed off that day and ended up scattered all over the coast broken and battered. I also had to call the Coast Guard that day to save a sailor that had become seperated from his boat. I ended up beaching my boat and heading out in a fishing boat to rescue that sailor.

I think these guys biggest mistake was expecting someone to rescue them. I'm a firm believer that any sailor should go out with the tools to rescue themselves. If they had considered that they were the only ones responsible to rescue themselves they might not have left shore that day.

Keep One Hull Flying,
Mike Hill
H20 #907

Mike,

As an outdoor guide and a former member of an Idaho Mountain Rescue team, the idea of not expecting help/rescue resonates with me. I agree with what you said above. An assessment of risk and the decision to go vs. no-go should be made from the standpoint of one's own skills/resources to get out of any potential situation without outside assistance. Not to say that one should not carry the necessary signalling gear. I wouldn't go out without it, but the availability of such gadgets should not play into the decision making process.

Maugan17,

Why don't you contact Performance and Hobie directly and ask them the maximum wind conditions the rigs on boats like the H-20, I-20, Nacras, and F-18 boats (not the platform) are designed for. I'm sure they will tell you the optimum conditions are 10-15 knots and to stay off the water in anything over 22-25 knots. The Tornado and A-Class have wind maximums of 22 knots for racing because people and boats get damaged in higher winds.

Your car analogy is not a good one because without speed limits, idiots that have no business driving fast would be killing themselves and others. The comparison a previous poster used that cat sailors who push the limits in their boats are like Neil Armstrong or Chuck Yeager is also ridiculous. Beach cats are pleasure craft, not military or scientific vehicles. No redeeming social value is going to come out of someone making a poor decision that puts himself and others in danger or potentially makes his wife and kids a widow or orphans so he can satisfy his "need for speed".

If you must sail in +30 knot winds, either get a sailboard or build a high wind rig for your beach cat that is sized for the conditions. Doesn't it make sense that as the wind comes up, the sailboard and kite guys go faster and faster with smaller sails?????

Sail safe, sail smart.

Bob Hodges
A-Class USA 147

About the speed limit analogy - Highways are often designed for a speed greater than the posted speed, and (in the US at least) the design vehicle is a mid-50s car which manuvers and stops much more poorly than a modern car. This is kind of a problem, as people can sense that their car is capable of safely exceeding the speed limit, and thus they do. The closest thing still made to the "design vehicle" is a dump truck, and lots of small highway agencies post curves based on how much their dump trucks sway when going around them.

I won't say those fellers seem young and stupid, but they make me feel old and wise by comparison.

I've spoken to the Coast Guard unit that handled the rescue and updated the story with some details from that end, and added the Coast Guard press release to the story.
Catamaran sailors rescued off Virginia Beach story.

I quoted this from the Beachcats site. I'm sorry but there's still something to this whole story that makes me go HURRAAAAY! instead of mumbling 'dumbass'.

Jake,
I think that we all say Hurray that they made out of the situation OK and we can sit here and Armchair QB the ordeal. You have to admit on some level deep down that a little more planning other that a cell phone and flares , was not the best plan. Even though that's what ulitmately saved them.
Having lived here in Va Beach my whole life, this kind of stuff happens a least once every two or three years, and usually has a sad story attached to it. So for now let's cheer that they were OK, but hope they hear "don't be a Dumass and Leave this Beach" the next time they think of leaving the beach with those conditions in front of them.

Anyway, just my .01 worth!
Doug W

A local TV Station ran a story, here it is!!
You Paid for This? Rescue of Sailors Attempting Trip in Gale Force Winds

Thats F'ing ridiculous. Those helicopters fly around doing jack sh*t every summer day guzzling down copious amounts of jet fuel doing nothing other than getting an aerial view of the thong-clad beauties.

GOD FORBID if they actually used that money towards its intended purpose.

Believe me, if taxpayers want to whine about fiscial inproprieties, there are bigger cash cows to be hunting than the coasties and this incident.

Maugan, you're right. One rescue is just a drop in the bucket, so I think we should capitalize on it. As "they" say, "any publicity is good publicity." Maybe these guys have inadvertently shown the way to getting more TV air time for multihulls. Did the TV station have video footage with the rescue? For future rescues, we have to make sure they are done in the daytime and that the media is alerted in plenty of time to get out there with their own copters for photo ops. It will help get the word out about how much fun catamarans are.
And if they spend $400,000,000 on rescues, why should monohulls and powerboats get the benefit of the publicity for the bulk of those rescues? We need to get our fair share.

I think I'm going to team up with the MauganH17 side of this little debate and I've also got the flak jacket on. It seems like these guys knew what they were doing as they have been called "experienced" on a number of times. Let's think what would have happened had their daggerboards not broken, well they probably would have got back to the beach and had a great time telling everyone how "gnarly" they were out there. It just so happened that their gear broke, obviously something that they would not be expecting. At least they had the sense taking out flares with them and a cell phone, just think how many people go out sailing without them.

To say that they are idiots for pushing the boundaries, well that's just crazy. Agreed, they are not helping science or any of the other things that had been said about the astronaught analogy, however what about explorers, mountaineers, etc. Do we call Shackleton an idiot for failing to reach the South Pole? No we celebrate that he survived even when his ship was trapped and sunk in the ice. We even celebrate those who actually die in these sort of things, not dance on their graves singing "who's the idiot". These sort of recreational "accidents" happen all the time and are used as a springboard for manufacturers to improve their equipment that helps all of us in the long run.

As for putting the coast guard at risk, well that's also crazy. These guys sign up for the job they do. Not sure how it is in the States, but in the UK where I come from, the RNLI (same as the coastguard) is staffed by volunteers and they turn a lot of people away from joining. This shows that the people who do these jobs activily want to do them and know and accept the risks involved. And as for the costs, well to be honest it's not that much when you consider the annual budget. The budget would be spent in any event on training even if they didn't ever go out on a rescue in a year. It's just part of life.

I could agree with Maugan on the theory that it gives the Coast Guard some practice if the rescue were happening on one of those clear, lazy days of summer when nothing else is happening. But where I come from, during periods of extreme weather the Coast Guard is kept plenty busy rescuing people whose boats are sinking, and they don't take kindly to having to divert equipment and personnel for rescues of people who went on the water for frivolous reasons.

During our 13th Annual Steeplechase, when a strong weather system arrived hours earlier than forecast, most of the fleet was wiped out and searches were under way by the Coast Guard, the Marine Patrol and the Sheriff's Department for two crews who had become separated from their boats.

Everyone was eventually safe and accounted for, but it was a pretty hairy day. Just prior to the awards being presented for the race, we received visits by and lectures from, in quick succession, the Coast Guard, the Marine Patrol, and the Sheriff's Department. Nobody said anything about being grateful for the chance to practice rescue skills. On the contrary, they threatened to cite all the sailors and confiscate their boats for something to do with "frivolous" and "reckless."

It's all well and good to admire these 5.2 sailors for exercising their right to go on the water at their own risk. But you know how the government works -- if we don't exercise common sense to protect ourselves from disaster, the government will enact a law that says we can't leave the beach when the wind is over X knots or the surf is over X feet high, or whatever. They will think they have to protect us from ourselves. And then we will no longer have the right to go on the water at our own risk.

This is not the type of coverage the sport needs. It is already hard enough to get a permit from the city of Va Beach, I hope this recent buzz over the incident does not generate future obstacles on permit issues.

On another note, sailing in 30+ winds does not make you an experienced sailor. There is *so* much more skill and knowledge invloved than just being young and taking risks.

Tracie

sailing in 30 knot winds makes me experienced... in sailing in 30 knot winds.

If you think we're getting bad PR, then you should clip some articles about Kiteboarding. At least we don't have the "Extreme Sport" mantra associated with that group of darwinist candidates.

Okay, Maugan, I'll bite. How many times have you sailed in 30-knot winds on your Hobie 17?

P.S. And those Darwinist candidates on the kite boards are probably just looking for a thrill -- isn't that what you said you are looking for?

I wasn't exactly keeping track of time. But I'd say a good 6 hours total. I never said I was an expert :P

we don't get 30 knots here on a regular basis.

Also, I've sailed in 20-25 quite frequently.

whyfore the biting remark? You think I'm baiting you guys?

Maugan. There's no "guys"; just me. I was just wondering how many hours someone must sail in 30-knot winds ON A BEACH CAT to achieve the status of being "experienced."

Well if you are referring to my response to tracie... I'm not necessarily talking about myself. I just used "I" as a nonspecified pronoun. I should have stated it better:

"He who has has sailed in 30 knot winds can say he's experienced in 30 knot winds"

Where he =/= MoogieH17

Nah, I'd say "He who has has sailed in 30 knot winds can say he's had experiences in sailing in 30 knot winds".
I've sailed in 30 plus, would I say that I am *experienced* in sailing in 30+ ? Not a chance. I've certainly experinced it though. Big difference.

Tracie

It is time to raise one´s voice…

1. I am government paid – in the Navy since 21 years, captain on board of 3 naval ships
2. I am a Hobie sailor since more than 20 years and yes, I am experienced
3. I am living in Virginia Beach

I think that you are showing a lot of disrespect for those guys who are there to help you.

Maugan 17/ Mary: Have you ever thought what someone from government organisations has to risk to go after “experienced sailors”.
They don´t go out for fun, even if the skies are fine, they have to train new crews. Or do you want a helo pilot out there for the first time in 45 knots of wind or a captain on his 20.000 hp naval ship that has never faced those breakers?

I have been involved in numerous incidents SAR missions to search for “experienced sailors” . Not more than once was it life risking. I was always relieved when I got home with my crew uninjured. What should I have told their wives and kids, if I returned. “We had to go after “Some experienced sailors”??” or what?

If you were experienced, you would have never gone out that day!
The forecast was indicating rough conditions. These experienced guys were going out alone! Without company! In those conditions!

This incident should be a lesson for all those “experienced sailors”, they are no heroes like the man on the moon or whatever!

Fritz-R. Klocke

I'll bite on this one. After serving 9 years in the Army, both Special Forces and other units I found that the act of training is not always training for the real thing and the real thing is why we train. I know many people in who trained for 30 years with Special Forces in Guard units, only to be told they can't go to Afganistan, even when they voluteered. For that very reason I got out. I should have joined the CG, they have real life missions. Yes its dangerous, but those that do it, do it because they love it, not for the money. I suspect its entirely voluteer. Now I am not saying that these two should have gone out that day, don't get me wrong. I think they were wrong, but I have been out with fleets that raced in 20-25 with gust to higher, and most recently Sail For Hope in Newport when the weather was really going to [censored]. But then that is fleet racing and there is something different about that than two hooligans going out on on their own, or is it?

Thank you, Fritz, finally someone who makes sense. To criticize the Coast Guard for flying because they’re not on a rescue mission just shows ignorance and arrogance. To commend these guys in any way shows the same ignorance and arrogance. They say they are experienced, but doesn’t that mean knowing when weather conditions are such that disaster is likely and knowing how to self-rescue when things go wrong? Going out in heavy weather to test your abilities is fine – so long as you go prepared to deal with the worst scenario without risking other lives. Maybe that means waiting until there is a fully supported race like the Tybee or other distance event where there are chase boats and other competitors nearby. Yes, the Coast Guard trains for things like this, and I know that like soldiers, firefighters and mountain SAR professionals, they love going out in tough conditions, but to use them as part of your bag of rescue tricks is irresponsible beyond belief and shows a complete disregard for the well being of others. I think these guys should get out their checkbooks and pay the Coast Guard for saving them. To beg for help finding their busted little boat is akin to tatooing a big 'L' on thier foreheads.

I just watched the report, and found it to be totally ridicules and very biased by the TV reporter and the lady that was trying to send a message to the sailors. I agree that this type of coverage is not what the sport needs.

All I can say is that I hope that the reporter or the lady trying to send a message don’t need any assistance from the Coast Guard if they are complaining about how much it cost.

The Skier
1973 H16

MauganH17,

I find your comments disgraceful.... With veiws like this I doupt that you are an experinced sailor at all.

I am 28yrs old and have sailed for more than 20 years. I have raced many times in 30 knots, sometimes gusting to 42 and have experienced a 60 knot squall on a beach cat on a lake. When the 60 knoter hit I need not say I lasted less seconds than you can count on one hand and washed up on the shore of the very small lake with my tail between my legs.

Just how comfortable were you in these 30 knoters and was it realy 30 knots. I stongly consider staying on shore when it blows 25+ and that is on the sheltered waters of Botany Bay (Australia) with support boats. This weather is boat breaking and crew injuring. In 25+ gusts can be much stronger.

I have been caught in a few life thretening situations including being traped under my boat after pitchpoling in a race where the wind increased to 30 knots sustained and gusts of upto 42 knots. This realy made me re think what I do on the water and puts sailing and your life in real perspective.

Going off shore in anything over 20 you must take into acount the possabilaties of any breakage including new equiptment. You also must be VERY confident in your ability to rescue yourself as help is not always at hand and a bad situation can go to worse quicker than help can arrive. For example take the tragic loss of one of the Tornado competitors at last years Princess Sophia Trophy who drowed under his trampoline before help could arrive.

It is great to explore ones limits but do so in a safe manner with the appropriate safty equiptment. A momentary thrill is not worth your life or that of others.

Sorry about the harsh criticism, but you are baiting us.

Stay safe and live for your next thrill.

not to change the subject, but, did anyone find the boat? (may have aleady been mentioned but I couldn't read all 60 replies!)

I've got to say, I've got mixed feelings on this whole story. First, wind is not the primary factor in boats breaking, it's normally the sea state. Also, I've read anywhere from 20 to 50 knots of wind from the different sources. Forget what the news media reports. They are selling a story. By the time the 2 sailors are old and gray, the story will have taken place in 75 knots. I'll take the CG's word for it.

With that said, I wouldn't think twice about sailing in 20-25. I've sailed in over 30 by choice, albeit in protected water within eyesight of a yacht club. I don't take issue with these 2 testing their abilities. The same way I don't take issue with Worrell sailors. I take extreme issue with their lack of safety gear. Why are people applauding them because they had flares and a cell phone. Where was their GPS so they could give their location accurately. Where was their VHF so they could broadcast their need of assistance and advise traffic on the shipping lanes of their situation.

The CG is there and paid to do what they did. It probably won't go down as the ultimate save in any of their careers. It takes a certain type of person to be in SAR type jobs. I'm sure they were fine with it.

The question that keeps nagging at me is: WHY would anyone want to voluntarily go out in winds that strong? What is the point? Maugan seems to be looking for the thrill of speed. However, as experts have said on this forum before, beach cats have a maximum hull speed and they cannot go faster, no matter how much more wind you have. And when the wind is too strong to hold the boat down, you probably are actually going slower than the maximum speed of which the boat is capable. And if you load more people (weight) on the boat to hold it down, the stress will probably break your rig.

So what's the point of the whole thing? It does not so much test the limits of the sailors' abilities as it tests the limits of the boat and teaches you how far you can push it before it breaks. And that is an expensive, potentially dangerous test.

Mary,

Sailing 1000 miles up the coast in a beachcat is dangerous. Climbing Mt. Everest is dangerous. Sky diving is dangerous. I don't know about the desire for speed being the only factor. As you rightfully pointed out, the boat speed will max out. You can probably get to the boat's hull speed in a lot less wind.

It's the rush. It has more to do with being in the situation where nothing is guaranteed. Wind and water noises confusing your senses. Shaking off the spray just in time to regain your eyesight to quickly ease the traveler. Launching off of waves. Adrenaline pumping, hyper focused on keeping the boat in a groove and feeling how loaded up the boat is.

Is it prudent? No. Of course not.

Is it fun? Absolutely.

Thanks for the clarification. I can relate. When I was a teenager, friends and I had access to a Dragon, which is designed for REALLY heavy-air sailing on the North Sea, and when we got a rare day on Lake Erie with a lot of wind, we would take the Dragon out and see how far we could bury the lee rail. VERY exciting! But we knew the boat could not possibly capsize, so I guess that doesn't count.

I was told the images were not loading, so I posting as attachments instead.
First one is of the Light Tower 15 miles off Va Beach Oceanfront.

Tracie

This one is of the Third Island of the Cheasapeake Bay Bridge Tunell.

More like the thrill of survival. I'd want to do it just to know that I could. If I failed, then at least I know that I gave it my best shot, and couldn't do it. I'm sorry if that challenge doesn't appeal to you people, and being called "disgraceful" for having an adventurous spirit is somewhat laughable.

"I've sailed for 20 years blah blah blah blah..."

I hear this crap from everyone. I've sailed for ... let see... 23 minus 13... 10 years, so roughly half of what you've been experienced to. Who cares. We could go into long digressions about whose sailing dick is bigger, but when it comes down to the decision as to whether or not to sail that day, its up to me, not all you people.

I'll leave it at that.

As for the comment that said mentioned that I was criticising the CG for flying around. Thats ludicrous. I was merely pointing out the error in logic when people say that, to go rescue these guys it cost $18,000... when I'd wager to say that it costs that to operate the chopper any other day of the week.

I swear, trying to get my point across to some of you is like yelling at a mango tree. Why don't we just agree that we have differring opinions and move on, because its quite apparent that the two sides of this arguement are entrenched.

"The thrill of survival" I am a recovering dumbass myself having survived a close encounter with hurricane Emily in 1987. There is nothing thrilling about it. Terrifying is more like it. The thought of sailing a beach cat alone in a very strong offshore winds is chilling to me. Just consider the litterally hundreds of failures that could prevent you from sailing back upwind to shore. Something as small as a ring ding could end your life.

That is a truly ingnorant remark.

One of the few positive things to come of this event is the CG got to practice a real rescue close to home and thank God they had guzzled down copious amounts of fuel training on many summer days before they had to go out in marginal conditions. The sailors' choice to go out in big wind is theirs alone, this is true. But by going out alone with only a cell phone and flairs as their safety net implies they were ready to put others lives at risk and that's where I take issue. The thrill of speed and ultra-challenging conditions appeals to many of us. It certainly appeals to me. Memories of taking on those challenges are my most vivid and I'm looking forward to my next opportunity to sail in big wind or ski deep snow in the back country. However, going into any situation like that alone with the expectation of someone else risking their life to save you is the ultimate act of selfishness. It sounds like these sailors used the term "experienced" a little too loosely. Had they been experienced they would not have gone out in that weather so unprepared.

way to take a remark totally out of context.

Bye.

The general consensus seems to be that these guys were experienced sailors who just had some unfortunate equipment failures. I'm not so sure I believe that.

I recently had the pleasure of breaking both my boards in similar conditions, although I was closer in to shore and thus the seas were lower. I found that the boat was more controllable and stayed flatter without the boards than with. Although the boat crabbed a good bit, I was able to finish the last three legs of an ACAC course.

Not that I consider myself an experienced sailor. I just disagree that the breaking of the boards is what caused the survival situation. More likely these guys were out of control from the beginning, and didn't admit it to themselves until they started breaking stuff.

I think what everyone has failed to realize is that would they have been on a Hobie, we wouldn't even be having this debat.

I addmitt it…I too have done participated in some rather “less than brilliant decision making”…and have so far…live to tell the tale…thanks to the grace of God…If anyone on this forum denies they have fit into this category at one time or another, they are lying to themselves.

Some observations…read into them as you wish…

1) Twenty years experience might mean:
A) Twenty years sailing all types of conditions from small lakes to open ocean, wind strengths from dead calm to hurricane force, in dinghies to Trans-Atlantic racers.
B) Twenty years sailing in a local 20-acre lake on an aqua cat.

One can have 20 years experience, or have one years experience 20 times.

2) How does one gain experience? By doing things…if you have not done something…you are not experienced at it. If one wishes to survive the experience it would be prudent to take small steps in the direction one wants to go rather than jumping in over ones head.
3) Just because you personally are not comfortable or equipped for a certain set of conditions, doesn’t mean the guy next to you is equally ill equipped. (They are several windsurfers that sail “JAWS” on Maui at 80 foot up the face, I can’t/won’t do it, you probably can’t/won’t do it either…but does that mean the local crew out there that have been doing it for years need to stop because of our limitations?
4) Choose the proper equipment for the job…If no production catamaran is designed to endure sustained winds of above a certain force, you are going to have to find something that was designed for that kind of wind like a very small sailboard/sail (less than 3sq/mt{32 sq/ft.}sail for 35 + sustained winds...how much sail does their cat have?), and be a very experienced rider. Or you will have to design your own cat, and hope that you will have conditions a couple times a year that justify the expense of building such a creature.
5) If you are going out in offshore winds make sure the “other side” is considerably less than a couple of thousand miles away,. At least you can blow to the other side before you die of exposure/drown /starve to death.
6) If we were really honest, one would have to admit the kind of personality that would gravitate to search and rescue duty in the Coast Guard has a little more in common with the adrenaline junkies they rescue than most would care to admit. Yes it is an important, serious job…but how many 19 year olds enlist because it is an “important and serious job”…I lived next door to a Coast Guard barracks for several years…they were really good guys…but they are human…I could tell some interesting true stories about their off duty exploits…just as foolish as sailing a outmatched beach cat in overpowering/offshore/open ocean conditions.

For what it’s worth…

Bob

can someone just please please please LOCK this thread. It's ridiculous. M17 has a point, so does every one else. Guys are OK, CG got some good real world experiance, and everyone still is sipping tea. There are SO many other things to talk about....

yes please. My delete key is running ill from all the hate mail I've been receiving lately. You would have thought I was a child molester or something.

People actually take the time to hate mail you?

Dear God, arn't there more important things to do? Like SAILING?

Yeah, which is odd, because I didn't think I had my email address posted on here.

Could have gotten it through the mailing list I guess.

Hate mail is entirely inappropriate, but as long as the thread contains new information or a new viewpoint the discussion has value. Perhaps it is due to my inexperience as a sailor (two years lake-sailing), but I've found every reply posted here interesting, EXCEPT those that are based solely on trying to belittle other writers. Even the replies that perhaps don't offer new information can be valuable in that they reinforce other viewpoints, a kind of "straw vote" in the discussion. Replies based purely upon the writer's emotional response to the topic are also valuable, as long there is self-control exercised in focusing the emotion toward a specific person. While the topic is generating appropriate responses, let the thread run free, I say.

so, what would have happened if they came back ok?

Today at our local Cat club Kurnell we raced in 18 to 20 knot gusty southerly winds sustained with a 20 minute squall averaging 24 knots and gusting to 31... all ofically recorded.

Result was a Tornado and Nacra 5.8 with broken masts, Taipan 4.9 crew gashed from top of forehead to mid cheak and over the eye (requiring stitches) after cartwheeling and hiting a side stay, plus many swims.

I was on the rescue boat and we cancled the racing during the squall, towing home 2 boats while the taipan crew was rushed to hospital.

Whilst the wind was fresh it was just still sailable but all skippers were happy to return to shore. And before I here any more about I am experienced in 30 knots, Id like to say that our club is made up of many State, National and World champions whome all love a blow. Talk to the real experts as to what is good crazy fun and what is just crazy.

How many sailors (and I have fallen into this catagory before) sailed in 20 to 25 knots and told everybody that she was blowing 30 to 35. As sailors we all tend to exaggerate. We are the worst, second only to fisherman.

I love to push the limits and have grown a reputation for it at our club. But when I do it I will do it either close to shore, in an on shore breeze or with a support boat accompanying me. Our local Coast Guard are based next door to our club house but I'd never rely on them for rescue. They have better things to do than come to the rescue of some stupid sailor that deliberatly puts himself into a potentualy dangerous situation.

These are just my opinions but I am sure that they would be shared by the CG.

I'll bet they would agree, too. The trick is having the foresite to know those limits and the maturity to test them whithout risking other lives. The sailors who are the subject of this thread had neither.

Allow me to also point out that all those recently mentioned accidents occured during a race, where competition between sailors was also a factor. Sailing as fast as possible, or at least faster than the next guy, during heavy winds is different than survival sailing.

If the people in that race were really worried they could have simply dropped their sails and rode it out. If shore was downwind of them they could have dropped the main and ran under jib alone.

______ Next thought... ______
If the Nacra sailors had invested in a specialty sail for their boat, one designed for high winds with a flatter cut and shorter foot, perhaps even a shorter luff, they might have been able to keep control of the boat in the first place.

_____ A little off the topic... ______
I've often thought about getting a "storm cat". Just a little 14' one-person boat to take out when it's really blowing hard and see how much fun I can have. A larger boat, with a smaller sail-plan (an 18' boat with a 14' boat's mast and sails) would seem to be the ideal. However I can't right an 18' or even a 16' boat alone, in a reasonable amount of time, because I only weigh 150# soaking wet.
Anyhow, I'm considering a Trac 14 "super sloop" (r/f jib and trapeze) for this, and perhaps by the time I feel competant enough to head out into 30+ knots of wind I'll be able to afford a new sail. Something designed specifically for that boat, a skipper of my weight, and heavy-weather conditions. Yes, I will be thinking long and hard about what safety gear to use and consider activating an EPIRB the very last resort.

I also love to push the limits (maybe more) outside of racing but still take the same precautions. If you want to have some real scary fun and put yourself in some dodgy conditions, have a freind in a speed boat (camera boat) go out with you. This way you can document your fun and at the same time, always have assistance close at hand.

"The trick is having the foresite to know those limits and the maturity to test them whithout risking other lives. The sailors who are the subject of this thread had neither."

I`d have to agree with Steve T. In an offshore wind of that strength, the sailors were basically saying to the Coast Guard : "We`re going for a quick sail, please come fetch us in a few hours." Looking at the wind graphs Tracie posted I`d have to say that conditions must have been beyond survival conditions.
Also agree with Steven Medwell (must be something to the name !), It`s generally about 20 knots when most sailors are already being tested to their limits, as well as the limits of the boat.
We all take risks : any of us could drown in 12 knots of wind, never mind 35-45 knots. Some of us also skydive, paraglide, snowboard etc - all sports involving evaluating the risks, and being prepared for them. There are two types of paraglider pilot : One type flies with a reserve parachute, has it repacked & inspected regularly, watches the weather report every day for 3-4 days before going to a flying site, then evaluates the weather himself, and asks advice from the local pilots. The other type arrives at a flying site, and without checking his equipment, the weather forecast, or the actual prevailing conditions, launches off into the sky without noticing that all the local pilots are waiting for the conditions to calm down to a safe level. It`s this type of pilot that makes the sport appear dangerous to outside observers, since they`re always making the newspaper headlines for all the wrong reasons.
Fortunately for the sport, they are also a self-regulating bunch : By virtue of their attitude to safety, they keep their own numbers down.
I`m sure this thread would have a different tone if the headlines had read : Coast Guard fails to locate catamaran sailors, search called off after 5 days.

Just my thoughts, on a positive note, maybe the guys involved have learnt to respect the elements, and woken us all up to the power of nature.
It`s great fun to push ourselves past the limits, but always keep in mind the "what if this goes wrong" thought - If they had gone out on a small lake in an onshore wind of the same strength and informed someone of their intended time of return, that would be enough safety for me. Flares would then be a bonus, not a necessity. I`ve sailed in 48-55knots (recorded) on a hobie 16 like that, was great fun, never upright for more than 30 seconds, capsized more than 15 times before we lost count. The answer to the "what if this goes wrong" question was that we would end up upside down, drifting back to a friendly shore with no breaking waves & dangerous rocks or reefs. There is a way of taking risks, pushing the envelope, and coming home safely, even if it goes wrong.

I agree with Steve completely. The A-class and Tornado class cancel racing at 22 knots because they know that is the safe limit for the boat and the sailors. That's the reality of these boats and the wisdom of the sailors in the class.

If you really have a desire to sail a beach cat in over 25 knots of wind, just be sure you setup the boat for the conditions, have a life support system in place, and don't just go out to try it "for the hell of it". I've done a lot of high wind (+20 knots) sailboarding. It's much faster than any typical beach cat and way safer (when you fall, that board and rig is a sea anchor). You get seperated from a beach cat, you won't be able to swim near fast enough to catch it unless it turtles (I've seen this even in 15 knots of wind).

I totally disagree with this statement! I have done some high wind sailing at a club in Montreal and this club was equipped with a weather station from Environment Canada. I know that I sailed in 20-25 knots winds on many occasions with a Prindle16. I also sailed at lake Champlain and at that time we had web access to a US weather station (nacra 5.7 singlehandled in 22 knots with 27knots gusts)

It seems to me that " ... because they know that is the safe limit ..." is a bold statement. Most likely is that these racing boats are very expensive and there is a real risk of an accident rounding a mark or at close racing. I know that it was the case at the last F18 race that I sowed up to (as a spectator) Peoples were concerned about collision damage and the chop.

Contrarily to the “wisdom” of your class, 22 knots is not a wind limit, Cat sailing doesn't become "unsafe" at that wind speed. I had very nice sailing performed at 25knots with many cats and I am certain that my 5.2 will handle strong winds with ease.

By purchasing an A-cat, you gave committed yourself to own a very light boat. The low and medium wind performances of these boats is remarkable but at the cost of a more fragile boat and more susceptible to collision and puncture. Also, these boat are much more difficult (and expensive) to repair.

About the “Expert Sailors incident”:

Personally, I would not have gone sailing in strong weather with offshore winds, eighter with my cat or with my sailboard.

Personally, I will not condemn these sailors for their action.

Also, if their rescue by the US Coast Guards was assimilated as an improper use of funds and equipment, then all pleasure craft originated rescue should be treated the same way.

Hi Charels,

You are correct..... 25 to 30 is sailable but is a test of survival (staying upright). I have sailed quite a few times in winds upto 30 knots and have had some of my wildest rides. But also did so taking appropriate precautions.

I think that racers would rather call it quits after 22 knots because your tacktics go from reading shifts, current and covering boats to just staying upwrite more often than your competitors. They would also rather wait for conditions to settle before they continue their series of races than blow everything (equiptment failure and injury) in a survival race and not be able to continue the regatta.

I have missed several weeks of racing due to equiptment failure such as broken masts, boards ect. Sailors serious about their sailing realy don't want to loose training time on their boats. If you don't use it, you loose it. And your competition stays in the groove and gives you a touch up when you hit the water next.

Best to have a toy boat to play in the big stuff and keep the good boat for your serious racing.

Charles,
I kind of agree with you in one way: If you are sailing on protected waters, meaning relatively flat water, you can safely sail and control cats in much higher winds than if you are also dealing with big chop. Same thing if you are out on the ocean and have no current or boat traffic causing chop and all you have to deal with is long, smooth swells.

Sometimes you can find ideal speed conditions on an inland lake in Kansas.

So the "safe limit" for racing or pleasure sailing actually has a lot to do with the water conditions as well as the wind conditions.

This season we had a race in 30+ mph winds. We had 380lb on my Nacra 5.2 and we went out Uni-rigged. The chop alone was wild enough. Out on the ocean I would imagine it would have been very bad.

People may think they know their limits, but most who get in trouble have thought they were within bounds. Anything can happen, and every sailor should set themselves up for a safe sailing experiance.

One of the funnest times I've had was sailing our old Club Wave out in some 25mph + wind. Waves love wind...

We take these risks not to leave life, but to stop life leaving us.....

Which is why I would probably have been tempted to join them for some high jinks on the ocean waves.

That said, I wouldn't put too much faith in flares or a cell phone on their own - I think a VHF (in water proof bag) and someone back at the beach who will call in a resuce if you are overdue is a generally a good idea. One of those satellite thingeys looks like a wise investment too....It's also helpful to have fellow lobotomy patients sailing out there with you who can haul you back to the beach without the CG getting involved.

Chris.

PS Mary - could you explain your previous comment about max hull speed for a cat?

There have been fairly extensive debates on the forum about the maximum speed that can be reached by beach cats. Wouter once said the maximum is 30 knots. Others have strongly disputed that and claim the top speed attainable is 20-22 knots. The people providing these figures are mostly engineers armed with formulae dealing with factors of hydrodynamic drag, righting moment, and other stuff.

Non-engineer sailors provide claims anecdotally of speeds up to 30 knots, some of them backed up by their GPS. However, the engineers say such anecdotal reports are unreliable and often subjective. They concede that speeds that high may be possible in very short bursts, often enhanced by wave-surfing, but that such speed cannot be sustained.

Whether the maximum speed potential is 20 knots, 22 knots or 30 knots, everyone seems to agree that there indeed IS a maximum.

I am going to Vote, Here in America that is what we do.

It is a risk to get up in the morning a huge risk to drive your car to work (statistically) each morning. And the taxpayer cost of that is staggering.

the coast guard costs the tax payers the same amount weather they rescue a sailor or twenty or none.

I would have sailed in the wind because it was fun and would be a great story to tell around the campfire.

I don't care if everyone thinks I am a dumb A## for doing so.

I don't care if there is a limit to the speed a cat can go as long as it is a hoot getting it to go that fast.

I am 40 and have done many things, when I die I will not regret having been rescued by the CG (or serving in the USMC) or anything that I did, I will only regret the things I let fear stop me from doing.

Lets see the statistics on rescues from hang gliding, rock climbing, River Kayaking, mountain biking, Motocross, Walking in the woods alone.

I understand safety and sometimes I understand living life on the edge.

I would have gone sailing.

I have to agree with Marc -- sailing in 35-knot winds (gusting to 50) is not as scary and dangerous as driving on a freeway to work in a city in rush-hour traffic. Being the wimp that I am, if I had to choose between the two, I would take the boat any day.

So, if thrills and danger and living on the edge are the goals, why not head for the highway rather than the ocean?

Marc,
You are right, it is a risk just getting out of your driveway. You are also right that it probably cost the same whether the CG rescues you or trains for it. The difference that I see is any rescue mission has its danger factor (that is why you are being rescued). Is it OK for someone else to get hurt and/or killed trying to rescue you just because you pay taxes? All other arguments do have their own merits, but I for one will go out when I am confident "I" can get back. Who will go to that 22 year old CG's parents/or wife with a little baby and say hey I'm sorry about him/her but damn I had fun.

OK now I'll get off my soap box.

Clayton

It was a vote but what the heck.

The coast guard was not risking their lives any more than they do every day. They train to do what they do as safely as they can. If it was a risk of there lives then they would not have done it.

We all make choices in life the coast guard makes theirs and they are responsible for it. The sailors made theirs and were responsible for it. It is a waste of everyone's time to say who was "right" and point at who was "wrong" as if that makes us right or wrong.

If you feel sailing in high wind is wrong because it may require the coast guard to do exactly what they are paid to do and volunteer to do and choose to do then don't do it.

I sail because I love it not because it is more or less dangerous than driving to work. I sail in high wind because it is fun. People do all sorts of sports because sitting at home watching TV does not have the same effect on their mind. You may if you wish condemn someone for throwing themselves against the wind in passion. you can even condemn the coast guard for choosing to risk themselves to rescue the sailors (it was their choice to do so).

Life is not lived looking back it is lived making choices now.

I will say it again I would choose to sail in the wind over discussing it on the internet.

I can relate to what Clayton said, because our next door neighbor is in the Coast Guard and he has a wife and three young children. He would probably give his life, if necessary to save someone in distress at sea. But why should he have to take that risk and make that sacrifice if it is not REALLY necessary? As with all our military service branches, I think my neighbor would feel better about dying while protecting our shorelines from terrorists than rescuing somebody out for a joy ride on a catamaran.

I haven't asked him, so it's just a hunch.

And that brings this thread to triple digit posts with 100!

If anyone coming in now doesn't know what's going on, read the whole story here.

As for where I am on this.

They do risk there lives sometimes in rescues like these more than they do in training. Sometimes conditions are worse than they train in and can deal with terrified and unpredictable people whom may further endanger there lives through their actions whilst being rescued. The 98 Sydney to Hobart race saw upto 90 knot winds and 80 foot waves...... these are not the conditions you train in.

However the CG will way up the risks of the mission and abort if they feel it will likely cost the life of a fellow CG....... but sometimes there judgment can be wrong.




With the conditions these guys were out in it was not MAY NEED ASSISTANCE but will VERY LIKELY NEED ASSISTANCE.

My thoughts on this is if you plan to put yourself into a highly dangerous situation..... have your own stand by assistance ready such as a mate on a power boat.

This particular post isn't about the VA Beach guys or anybody else specifically, it's more of a general rant. I'm not referring to any one person's post or views.

I think I'll drive my car the wrong way down one-way roads. It gives me a thrill, and that's way more important than the people I may put in harm's way.

Ok, a bit over the top, but not too far off.

That having been said, I'm all for people pushing the envelope of their skills and equipment, and going on adventures. I'd hate to see some general edict about what you can and can't do. That's for us to decide. But it's also for us to be responsible about. The best way to keep the well-meaning safety junkies out of our sport is keep things level on our own. What I don't like is the attitude that "I'll just call the Coast Guard" as the first line of defense when something goes wrong. If you're going to thrill seek (or just go sailing), take the time for reasonable preparation. Take some spare parts, have a knife, a radio, a chart, spare line, etc. Tell people where you're going to be and what you're going to be doing. Think through some common mishaps and think about how you'll deal with them (capsize, weather, breakage). These things all relate to good seamanship, and after all that's what we claim to be.

There will be times that preparation fails and you might need a rescue. That's fine. Putting yourself in a situation where it's almost guaranteed without some plan of action at self sufficiency ain't too smart.

I was curious, so I did a small search. Check out the two links below. I'm not sure they give the full picture, and I'm sure it's a smallish percentage against the number of rescues. Puts names to it all.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/USCGSBKIA.html

http://www.check-six.com/lib/Coast_Guard_Aviation_Casualties.htm

Both links go way back in time, the most recent stuff is towards the bottom. One aspect I hadn't thought about with respect to the CG is the Auxiliary, which is made up of volunteers.

Here's two more interesting ones:

http://www.seatalebooks.com/coast_guard.htm

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/history/faqs/LSSmotto.html


Cost - remember how not so long ago the CG decided to stop rescuing boats that were not in life-threatening situations? That was because of cost. Now you have to get Sea Tow or whatever. One year a couple of years ago the CG almost ran out of money to buy fuel - a good part that year was rising fuel costs, but activity also played a part (if I remember right, Congress initially reacted by giving them more money, then requiring them to use the money to buy C-130s, which they didn't have the fuel to fly...).

Everytime equipment is deployed, it costs. Sure they have a budget, and as long as you don't go over that budget it has the appearance of costing the same. But every hour flown is one hour closer to scheduled maintenance and retirement/replacement of tax-payer bought equipment. But it is there to be used, and it should be/has to be used. Let's just not be stupid about it.

Great post, Keith!

I wasn't going to add any more to this enormous thread, but I didn't understand the relevance of Damon's ditty about dying. I don't think people object to those guys going out and having fun and dying from it. The objection is that other people have to go into harm's way in order to PREVENT them from dying. At least the Coast Guard is TRAINED to rescue people. But what if another passing pleasure boat had come to their aid and that person had gotten hurt or killed trying to rescue them?

It is just human nature to try to help fellow human beings in distress. These sailors were out there by choice, but during an emergency a good samaritan usually does not feel that he has any choice in the matter.

Excellent Shirt!

XL in long sleeve Please!

From the first link , since 1960 14 Coast Guard deaths resulted from rescues (5 of those were from one event in 1961), 16 deaths occured from operational accidents. Looks like a dangerous job even without going on a rescue mission!

This is my last post on this as all things relevant have been said.

I agree that it would be a great responsible thing to do, to have a mate in a motor boat standing by if you are going to go out in 35+ winds and next time I do so I will see if I can get one.

the question of whether or not to sail is an individual choice and to sit on the beach and say "you should have known better" after something happens is meaningless.

I have sailed in 25+ winds and had a great time (because nothing broke) when other sailors sat on the beach with comments like "your nuts". I have sailed in 35 Kts and while exciting was not as much fun because it was at the limit of my boat(n5.8) and my ability to stay upright.

At 40kts I would sit on the beach and admire by buddies CG and MD as they left the beach on MD's H16.

There are 1000s of risks to your life (love the shirt). And the 5.2 sailors did not set off the beach with the idea of losing their boat and being rescued by the coast guard.

We are all responsible for our own actions and nothing forces anyone to do anything except make a choice.

If I choose to sail in 35+ winds and the coast guard chooses to rescue me then what difference does it make to discuss the reasons or to say we made bad choices.

I agree that it is a bad idea to set off from the beach with the intention of being rescued, I suggest we all not do that but I do not know anyone that would.

My last thought: A first time sailor in 8kts is taking the risk of needing to be rescued.

Do any of you remember posts on some of the forums about Fleet 448's 2002 Block Island Sail? This was a fleet event, with a good number of boats. The wind was blowing around 15 to 20 that morning, and forcast to increase to 25 to 30. I can't say what it actually was, but I know I would not have taken my own boat out, or gone solo. I crewed on a friends H16, along with his girlfriend. We got out about 4 miles and turned back. Most eventually turned back. Of those that didn't many had parts break, one was nearly wrecked beaching on the island, one was abandoned when the CG removed the crew from the turtled boat, and of the few that made the round trip, none enjoyed it. I did go out for a great joy ride later with a very experienced skipper, and another good sailor. They took turns at the helm. I remember the more experienced guy saying to turn a little, or sheet out a little before launching off the crests of the waves. I felt totally confident, and had one of the most fun rides of my life, flying off 6' seas while on the wire is a real rush! Later back on the beach I overheard the same guy telling someone he was just waiting for the bows to break off! Perhaps thanks to his advice we didn't suffer any damge. Another woman was seperated from her boat and husband, and wasn't picked uo for about a half hour. She told me she thought she was going to die. Fishermen picked her up. All this was with winds almost onshore, and incoming tide. When I was on my joy ride, I thought if the boat did go down we weren't far from shore and could make it in. It was a day I won't forget! My opinion is that the guy who lost his boat should not have been out there. He was not experienced enough, and his crewwas too light and weak; and the woman seperated from her boat should not have tried to go so far out. They had only been sailing a couple of months. Most of the others had a fair idea of what they were doing, and there was a sizeable group to watch out for each other. Our commodore had tried to get the less experienced people to stay closer to shore, but they wouldn't listen. That was my second time crewing in winds like that. Both times we stayed fairly close to shore, and both times were incredably thrilling! I hope to do it again! Brian

I think it would be insightful if we could hear from the two sailors involved and ask the question, "Knowing what you know now, would you make the same decision again to sail off that beach in similar conditions?"

Many of us have found ourselves in situations where we suddenly realize that we're in over our heads. We all make bad decisions from time to time. Hopefully we learn from the experience. "That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger." Surviving the consequences of a bad decision or two should provide the learning and wisdom that help with decisions later down the road. Additionally, we can learn from others.

In essence, what I'm hearing from many in this thread is the advice that we should learn from others' mistakes. There have also been many helpful tips about how we can reduce the risk while sailing (or not sailing) in high wind conditions - allowing thrill seekers the chance to experience "survival" sailing without putting others at risk.

Once more, the question, would they do it again?

I hope this board stays up a long time because it brings me great pleasure on a slow day at work in the middle of freezing February to look back on that day. At times I can still feel the power of the wind bursts, still see the waves breaking over the boat, still feel the chill of being in the water for 4 hours, still see my friends face smiling while sailing at crazy speeds, still feel the fatigue in my arms after righting the boat so many times I forgot to count, still feel my numb fingers after removing the wetsuit gloves to make a shackle repair, still remember my inner thoughts while securing a life line between my friend and I, still remember watching the sun disappear and thinking we may be spending the night in the drink, still remember the surrealism as the chopper arrived overhead and lit up our dark Atlantic ocean world, still remember the young rescue swimmer’s ear to ear grin as he made it to the boat, still remember him pulling me off the wrong side of the boat, still remember holding my breath going fully underwater through a wave while in the rescue basket, still remember feeling the tap from the airman on my head to signal I was in the chopper and to get out of the basket, still remember the hotel lights at the southend as the chopper made it’s way over land once again. So many more I could go on forever. Not one of my brightest days, not one of my darkest, but a hell of a day nonetheless. I wish you could have been there. Some days from this office chair, I long to be there again. Not one of my brightest thoughts, but not my darkest either.

So you are one of the two guys on the Nacra 5.2 that got rescued by helicopter more than two years ago?

Thank you for sharing your experience with the rest of us.

Re: Ask them, "Would you do it again?"

There is a formula we quote here at Hobie Cat to describe difficult situations:

Misery / Time = Comedy

This is not something you would wish to experience, but having lived through it can bring some sense of positive experience to you. I had a bad experience during the Hobie midwinters event in Mexico in the early 80's. The one hit by a big storm. We had to be rescued as well. I can recall a friend back home telling me he wished he had been there. I thought he was nuts. But over time, this experience is one I can count as an adventure or learning experience... still wouldn't want to go through that again though.

As a public service this is my cautionary tale…Would I do it again...No way.

Sept 25th 1987 I’m visiting my family in Bermuda. Hurricane Emily is bearing down and is forecast for a direct at about 10:00am. At 7:30am my brother knocks on the door. He’s going to move his 23’ inboard to a sheltered cove in Southampton about 10 miles away. Not wanting him to go alone I go with him, we have plenty time right. Heading along the north shore we are about a mile offshore when we notice the sky getting dark and the breeze picking up. We radio our position to friends in Southampton. No worries were ok.

We round Spanish point and start the final stretch across the Great Sound. It’s very dark now and the wind has picked up to about 20-30. Our friends check our position again, a little anxiety evident in his voice this time. Half way across the Great Sound we pass Pearl Island a few hundred yards to port we check the compass bearing to the narrow rocky entrance to the harbor now only about 2 miles away. It’s getting real ugly real fast. The radio crackles again. This time all decorum is gone…”where the f**k are you guys?”

A couple minutes later the bitch hits us and everything goes white. The spray is horizontal. Fortunately the waves have not had time to build too big but we are blind. We hold the compass course and decide that either we hit the opening to the cove or we run the boat up on the rocks and jump off. I wonder who will take care of my kids as I pull a life jacket on. A few minutes later, through the spray, we see the rocky shoreline on both sides of the boat. We had hit the narrow entrance to the harbor dead on.

Don’t mess with Mother Nature.

PS number 2

20 knots on a cat is survival, 25 crazy, 30, call the USCG


I was on my friends C&C24 in an evening race on Lake Murray last year when we were caught in 35-40 mph winds, and we barely made it. This on a big boat, sails secure, bare pole, 3 hp motor working fine, just cant keep it in the water to push us. We drug(wellreally it skipped across the top of the water) a 20 pound Danforth anchor, an some how on the 3rd thro it grabbed the bottom. We rode out the 15 minute squall we the Danforth locked, the motor running, and the boat 10 feet from the rocky shoreline that would have pummeled us had we ran aground.
My point is that 30 knots of wind is STUPID. 25 is asking for injury or breakage, and 20 knots is on the edge of control. Why risk it? No thrill is worth that.

Wow...you're old. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It is true that you can get killed waling across the street, but that does not mean I am going to go play in the traffic.

Play in traffic? Yes.

Play in traffic during the Indy 500? Don't be stupid. You'd be wasting my tax dollars picking up the pieces.

Some may old and wise....others may say his stupid butt has tried that, and it wasnt pretty....then there are those who say hes a puss, but I like the way my boat and my body are assembled right now. I would hate to break either one <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I guess there is a big difference between what an ocean sailor will try and what a lake sailor thinks should be attempted. We rarely raise the sails unless a small craft advisory is in effect. The bigger the seas the better the airtime. Almost all the lake sailing I've done has been in less than 15kts sustained, most races under 10kts. US inland average is like 8kts. I like the challenge of big air and seas, I also like dropping 15ft on a mt. bike so I might not be right. I think it is a personal decision to go out on that type of day. I would also feel that as friends of Dan's this was not the first time they had gone out in those conditions. I say you only live once, if you think you've got it go for it. I have no children and plenty of life insurance to protect my wife. If I CHOOSE to risk my life then so be it.

I hope your insurance agent doesn't see this post <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Geoff,

I suspect the notice of cancellation is already in the mail!

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I am an agent. Most recently with State Farm. Life insurance can't be cancelled like other types of coverage. There is a 2 year contestability clause but after that if you die they pay, period! So if your planning suicide, buy a policy, wait 2 years and then have at it.

Not being a life insurance salesman (we can all dream, can't we???) I would disagree.

Material misrepresentation is grounds for cancellation, if memory serves.

I believe the questionnaire asks questions related to your lifestyle. Don't lie and tell them you are a librarian with no outside activities.. They might have issues if your corpse is attached to a ripped parachute.

I guess I better fess up about being a part time Human Cannonball.

When was the Narca 5.2 built, early 80’s? Is it a good idea to take out such an old boat in such extreme conditions? Too bad but I’d presume it was not a big financial loss and certainly not worth risking ones life over. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

my first cat was a 1976 5.2, which is still in action at my club. New sails, new traveler track and one new hull later, but boat and rigging seem rock solid. One hull had a bolt rip up from the beam strap, but it was probably something I did while diassembling and reassembling to put the new tramp on. Im trying to convince the current owner to buy my F18 mast and sails and rev it up a little. It did have a spin on it back in the early 90's, but it was a poor designed spin(hey it was the 90's) and I didnt know any better, so I got rid of it. Anyway, good boats, probably stronger than what we get today.

Todd, you saying you didn't enjoy that day as much as I did??? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It sucked, but making ~60 miles in just over two hours was ok (till the storm hit)! I think we were just ahead and ~1/2 mile to windward of you when that happened b/c I remember seeing you all get LAUNCHED (think silhouetted against the sky) and thinking, "oh f*ck, hope they're ok". We saw you all up and moving otherwise we would have "attempted" to go back. Was that around Oregon Inlet?

I've been out in 20+ NUMEROUS times, 25+ well above average, 30+ ~20+ times on numerous boats from leaners to cats. I would consider myself someone who excels in big air as is one of the skippers I sailed with (also a big air specialist) before moving to UT. His words, "I can't trust you, you don't care what the wind is, you'll go out, lol". We did quite well in the nasty stuff. When it gets that way, there is a difference between those who can and those who try. (this is going to put in the same boat as Maugen, but..) If you get scared, you are going to act scared, you are more likely to get hurt. Composure is very important in these situations.

I've been out in some WILD hairy sh*t, but.... the vast majority of those times was to race. One race in particular in Ft. W (Bob cat posted a/b this one), we had a couple of waterspouts pop up and it got wild. Sadly, this was the decision making process, "what is the boat in front doing? racing, what is the boat behind doing? racing, so, we're racing too". Peer pressure is a biotch.

I can only think of a couple of non-racing times on a cat that I've gone out when most people would have stayed in. That being said, I would not have gone out that day on that boat. IMHO, breaking the boards would tell me that probably had them 100% down and that would be a mark of inexperience in itself IMHO. (flame away)

I hope most took my post in jest...but I too have recently found myself pulling back when conditions get extreme and dropping out of "race mode" a little earlier than I would in the past. I started sailing with the philosophy that "the existence of a limit cannot be determined without exceeding it" - but when we got into off shore gonzo blasts in last year's Tybee and this past Steeplechase, I found myself pulling away from the trigger a bit...and I think I've backed off just a ~little~ too much recently - including the Tradewinds regatta (we stayed fast, but I didn't push any crossings....then again, it wasn't my boat, etc.). There's a lot of psychology to this stuff. "Racing" in heavy conditions on a boat prone to capsize is a fine line between skill level and at what point you stop racing. I guess I've moved on to the 'sneak up on the limit' philosophy as of late.

Wuss (just kidding)

I had Brian say one day, "we need to slow down, we're going to break the mast" Learning where that edge is important, but... it's always changing, different on each point of sail and of course varies with the conditions. Like shooting at a moving target while blindfolded!

Agreed. I approach sailing in rough conditions like so:

I try to determine a variability percentage in how much power the boat can take before problems develop. This number depends on wave state and the strength (not frequency) of the wind gusts and our skill level and physical condition on the boat. In very flat water and steady winds, that can be 1% variability. In heavy waves and/or really gusty conditions, that can be as much as 30% (like this past Steeplechase). Once I kinda get my head around that number, I then try to push the boat right up to it. So, if the waves are pretty good size and the wind is relatively steady, my variability might be 10% so I'm going to try and run with about 90% of my available speed. I could probably live at 95% for a while but eventually that variability is going to get me. When you get bow sizzle on a Nacra 20, you are usually inside that variability.

The trick is that the REALLY experienced guys (Kenny, JC, Lohemyer, etc.) have both the skill and the experience to get this variability number pretty high because they can identify a potentially capsizing condition quickly an react skillfully - they are also able to adjust that number after every wave (whether they know it or not).

Now do you see what light air distance racing days are good for?

What's wrong with "torque it till it strips, then back it off half a turn"? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Or Mosley's line; "I cut it twice but it's still too short".