Why so few women skippers?

Sailing has always been hailed as one of the few sports where women can compete on an equal basis with men. And yet there are very few women skippers. Why is that?

Dunno,

good question.

I always ask everytime we go out on the boat if my girlfriend wants to drive and she always declines, even when we're on a slow fat mono.

I think guys introduce their "significant others" to the sport and never get the motivation to step outside the crew niche. I could be wrong though. I'm wildly speculating. And rambling. I'll shutup now before I'm in the doghouse again.

Mary,

How often do you take the helm and race against the boys?

Jennifer Lindsay
Taipan 4.9 #262

Well, this is not about me, because I retired from racing about 10 years ago. And I have my own opinions about women and sailing, but I am waiting to hear what others have to say on this subject before I express my own.

We need the opinions of women, as well as men; and, unfortunately, there are not many women on this forum (probably for some of the same reasons that they don't skipper).

And men are probably afraid to say what they really think for fear of offending women. But I REALLY would like to hear what they REALLY think, anyway. For instance, how many men really WANT to put their women on the helm (for racing, that is)?

Jennifer, in your case, you could give valuable input on this question. Why do YOU helm?

It's a conspiracy.
If all the female crews start taking the helm, they'll be able to point out the skipper's mistakes.
Usually its vice-versa; the skipper is always pointing out when the crew is doing something wrong, yet the crew is less likely to be able to point out what the skipper is doing wrong.
Its a male ego thing that they have to protect.
Okay, I'm joking..

That does not answer your question.

I can say that I don't skipper because I simply don't feel confident enough. I only started sailing (anything) about 4 1/2 years ago.
I started crewing on a Hobie 20, that was the first sail boat, let alone a catamaran, that I had ever been on in my life.

Dennis thinks I should be able to learn on the Tiger.
I don't.
I have sailed it, I have flow a hull, even sailed downwind with the chute up, but I become uncomfortable in quick think situations because I simply do not feel confident in what I am doing.

If I could start off on a smaller boat I think I could do well, because the desire to skipper is there. I would even want to eventual race as well.

I still don't think I answered your question!

Okay. Maybe it is because many women are introduced to sailing later in life, say after meeting their boyfriend or husband, while a good number of male sailors seem to have been sailing for many many years, even as a kid.

Tracie

HI gALS and Guys

Doing my part ,- sailed/ raced two of the W-1000 -now for 04 the -
Atlantic 1000 http://www.tybee500.com/

with female crew/- skipper
Both were very good when handed the helm ,
this often in offshore ocean racing conditions
and including some very difficult night legs in good sized seas -trapped out ,-spin flying.

Anyone can learn and become very competent in all regards of catsailing regardless of gender or physical strength -and size ,-{though it helps at times} -
The long legs like the finish of the Tybee 500 last year well into the night though starting at 10 a m is one of those times .

Les and his wife as skipper sailed really well in last years Tybee ,-
-http://www.tybee500.com/Team%20Photos%20BIG/Fully-Involved-2.jpg
as did team Lowen - -

http://www.tybee500.com/Team%20Photos%20BIG/Loewen-2.jpg

Actually some of the most fun I,ve had has been as crew on these races ,--strapped in trapped off the stern ,-spin flying ,surfing big Atlantic rollers ,-stars shinning ,-
great times etched in memory .

The I-20 is a good cat ,--but ,-its very skiddish to stear particularly in seas w chute up ,-it takes great concentration over sometimes long hours ,-so ,in distance racing someone that can spell you periodically is a real plus ,-and more fun for both team members .

Think we will see a larger variety of different 20s and 18s in 04 ,-for this and other reasons we need a general set of 20 ft consistant rules that allow all boats similar max. sail areas and min weight ,--general 20 specifications ,- a NA F-20 concept does this best and allows teams to add reefable mainsails and other modification for this type of racing .

just starting to get organized for the 04 Atlantic 1000 ,
currently seeking crew and gr crew . - happy to sail it with another female qualified skipper/crew .

Merry Christmas
Happy Holidays

Carl

My hunch is that indivduals get absolutely hooked on sailing when they sail a small boat by themselves. They make mistakes, ask questions, get the boat going well, get their head out of the boat and then enjoy the beauty of moving on the water with just wind and waves. Once hooked, you just have to go sailing and it's just easier if you drive! Its just not the same experience with one or in the case of a big boat with several others on board. Until you have the total responsiblity for going out and bringing the boat home you won't have a sense of sailing.

If you don't have the passion to just "go sailing"... the hassle factor of getting a cat into the water will stop you every time. I don't think we develop many women skippers because physically a cat is a pain in the butt on the beach. If the boat is just too much on the beach for you as an individual, I think you will be stopped. I don't know of too many men or women who want to be dependent on someone else for their well being. Bottom line... we need small, light fun performance boats for women and kids to sail independently. I think you also need to start or migrate to a boat that you can also sail socially and not just race.

The overwhelming participation of women racers in events like the Rolex demonstrate that quite a few women are very competive, enjoy putting together teams and do go racing. Even at the level, the majority of women sailors are crew's and not helms. (3 to 4 man teams)

I also think that a critical element is to have sailing yacht clubs which provide the support and expertise for a novice women helm to draw on AND a boat that they she can manage on her own. Notice that women race Europe dinghy's and not lasers at the olympic level... If you have ever seen a europe you would not have any doubts as to why.

Take Care
Mark

tracie:

When I was learning to sail in lasers about 13 years ago, because we were so small, the sailing school would crew us up. My first sailing camp I got stuck with the fat, slow skipper who had a propensity to death roll. As a sailing noob, all the kids would tell me that I was going to have a blast with "Death Roll Dickie" when the wind picked up and we had to gybe. I of course, didn't know what the hell they were talking about. The first week of camp or so, the wind never got higher than 7 knots or so. The second week however, the wind blew 15 knots the whole time, and I learned what it was to fall over backwards, get hit with the boom, and come in last place tired and covered with jellyfish stings (which, now, I have built up a tolerance/immunity to thanks to that kid).

The third week, I was sick and tired of sailing with Dick. Even I could tell after just sailing for two weeks that he sucked, he was to fat for the laser (even as an 8 year old this kid was huge) and I wanted off. So I went to the sailing instructor and whined, and told him, that I was getting off that boat one way or another (actually, at 8yo I threw a tantrum after I got stuck with him on the monday of the third week). So the instructor told me to rig my boat and that I was going to skipper then. After knowing that you were "supposed" to have crewed for a full summer before you skipper, I was quite suprised, but given the fact that the skipper/crew pairings for the summer had already been established, I see now that this was the only recourse for the instructor. I got paired with one of the Pram sailors that wanted to jump to lasers. The wind was blowing about 10 knots, and we were going to sail to a kid's house for his bday pool party that day.

The first day, my sail ripped, my tiller snapped in half, my centerboard broke, and the boat took on tons of water and I ended up having to be towed back most of the way. I was scared to death. I didn't really have a clue what I was doing. I knew basically that I had to steer in reverse (you'd be suprised how long that took getting used to) and I probably scared the sh*t out of the poor crew kid for most of the summer, but I ended up getting the "most improved sailor" at the end of the camp because I had gone skipper so quickly and started doing well in races.

Now I'm sure your situation is different (you're not an 8 year old boy for one) but I think the point is that we were all a little (alot) nervous when we took the helm the first couple of times. It wouldn't be exciting if it wasn't. If you're afraid of making a mistake in front of your skipper, then well, you'd know what its like to be a man who makes mistakes in front of his woman, the derivation of "the look"

I skipper because I have been sailing for 20 years longer than my crew, But am always trying to get her to drive.

I would like to know from the female skippers how they got started in sailing. and then see if I could influence my daughter with the same circumstances / oportunities.

Sailing for me is a passion that I learned at 11 and at some point realized that my other passions would only be synced if my girlfriend loved to sail.

How many of the female skippers have male crew? Can a man take instructions from a woman? How many women have competive natures that drive them to race?

While we are at it how many black female racing sailors are there? What is the percentage compared to the public?

how many black males are skippers?

OK what is the median wage of skippers compared to crew?

Mary, I am not sure, and I am not afraid to answer. On Triceratops, F31R, I am the principle helm. Mostly because I am the one that that seemed to have the fastest learning curve, and that machismo to go out and sail in conditions that really challenged me. I was also lucky to have a Tornado sailor join us and teach us how to really sail our boat. My wife just doesn't feel comfortable at the helm. AS much as I would like her to take it, and for our boat it is probably one of the less physically demanding positions, she just doesn't like to but she is getting better. another Female crew and friend wouldn't think twice if I handed her the helm, actually she would rip it out of my hands if she thought she could get away with it, unfortunately she is really only with us when we are racing and then there is a little tension between her and my wife (one upsmanship I think).
anyhow I have to agree that setting up a beach cat is quite a pain for those that are physically challenged, but there are ways around raising the mast. This is one of the reasons why I sold my cat (stupid thing to do), and bought a tri. now I have to launch on a ramp and all the extra expenses. There is no way my wife would sail without me, but our friend would if I gave her the chance. So I think it really is in the personallity and how much you want to push yourself.

Hello Jon-

I took my ARC22 out with two tri-babes from my bike club. We tried out my new furling asm spin and it all worked out well. Both got to get in the traps, steer, furl,trim, etc.Now they want to work catsailing around their more important cycling/tri events next year. I don't have a sailing mag in the house [raided] and I told them both no phone calls for less than five questions. They are 39 & 44 yrs young and neither had been catsailing before. Both were afraid of capsizing at first but became well adapted after the first run across the lake.

Now my goddaughter maybe be back here next year. She has her eyes on my FMS 20 thats being refinished. She helped me sand down one of the hulls. I told her RT has first shot at it and she said "my boat" and smiled...

So theres hope for you and your crew getting back into the catsailing scene.

thommerrill

It's been my experience over the past several years of showing people how to sail Hobie Waves at Rick's Place that, in general, women seem to learn to sail more easily than men do.

Now, is this because women
a. seem to get a feel for the boat faster than men do?
b. pay more attention to instruction than men do? (And is that because women know what they don't know, whereas men think directions aren't that important and they can figure it out for themselves?)

OR is my view of it skewed because possibly women relate better to being taught by women (in what is a mostly male-dominated sport)?

Maybe what is needed is a women-only sailing school on small boats, monohull dinghies and small cats, with only women instructors. Get some top-name, Olympic-level female sailors or coaches as guest experts for female-only seminars. There are very successful programs like that for the big sailboats (Womanship and others); so why not for the small boats?

As Tracie said upwards in this thread, "If I could start off on a smaller boat I think I could do well, because the desire to skipper is there. I would even want to eventually race as well."

While I'm at it, since there are so few women on this forum, I should answer Jennifer's question: "Mary, How often do you take the helm and race against the boys?" (And the reason I didn't want to answer it earlier is because the answer is so long.)

In my early years of sailing I ALWAYS raced against the "boys" (actually grown men) because there weren't ANY women skippers that I saw when I was a child back in the 1940's. Maybe I'm an unusual case (at least for girls) because I started sailing alone when I was about 8 years old on a pram dinghy my father got for me so I could learn to row and learn to sail by myself.

In my preteens and early teens I helmed our family Lightning in all the club series races (only female helm). In my 20's, I helmed my family's Shark catamaran (only female helm). All this I owe to my father, who relinquished the helm to me so that he could make magic with the sails and somehow make us win races even when I got terrible starts. He would say, "Get up there to the line! Get up there!" But I was too timid.

In my early 30’s I raced a Dingo (singlehander) in the Dingo Nationals, and I'm sure I was the only woman.

In my mid-30's I was the only woman racing a Laser in our little local fleet.

And then, in 1980, Rick got a Hobie 18, and I had to learn to crew. Bummer. The best thing about being on the helm was that you had the crew up front to help break the waves and keep you dry. Now I was the one taking the waves.

Steering was the easy job, and now I had the much more strenuous and athletic job at the front of the boat. Hmmm, seems like that is where the man should be (plus we needed the weight up front).

Actually, driving is all I really did until I started racing with Rick.

Rick and I have done boat deliveries, just the two of us, sailing day and night, offshore, and we have to switch off on the helm, of course, and take turns sleeping. Because I learned on a dinghy, I feel confident in my ability to sail almost anything.

My younger sister's story is different. She followed the same path as I, but she is a true and committed skipper and would never dream of crewing. She married a wrestling coach who had never sailed before. But since sailing was her passion, he learned to crew for her and they raced for years. (Ya gotta remember that we are all old people that I am talking about.)

Anyway, Betty (my sister) thinks it is not right to have women-only events. She and I raced in two Women's Hobie 18 World events, with her on the helm and me crewing. In both cases I had to literally beg her to do the events, because she said it is not right to have sex-segregated events in sailing. We got third in San Diego and first in New Jersey.

I partially disagree with her, especially in the beach-cat world. I think the women's only event that NAHCA (North American Hobie Class Assn.) hosts does a good job of getting more women involved and giving them the confidence to skipper.

As far as myself, I like to skipper my own boat, no crew. So now that I am free again to go to regattas after my eight years running Rick's Place, I am going back to the little dinghy concept that I feel comfortable with. So Rick and I are both going to be going to regattas sailing our Hobie Waves in 2004. I came out of retirement the weekend before Thanksgiving at a regatta in Clearwater, Florida. The Wave thing is really cool, because it is not just men and women racing against each other, in many cases it is husbands and wives racing against each other. Really fun!
----------
Okay, Jennifer, I answered your question; now it's your turn.

Mary,

>>>Steering was the easy job, and now I had the much more strenuous and athletic job at the front of the boat. Hmmm, seems like that is where the man should be (plus we needed the weight up front).


Then you will be pleased to know that this guy goes off the helm in 2004. I've been a reluctant helm since the beginning, but nearly always ended up as one on the request of my (varying) crews. In 2003 I somehow found a women to crew with me who rings me out of my bed to ask wether we are going sailing that day. It used to be the other way around. I'm counting my blessings. Anyway, she was very reluctant to give up the crew spot in 2003 but since we are going to fly a spi in 2004 races she decided that I could be better in front. No arguing with a woman who has made up her mind Ehhh ? Not that I mind the decision much, let me assure you. However it did conform a notion I had about female catsailors. They approach the whole subject different. Normally the men I encounter like to be a little scared; the "yeah, pull up that big bad big spi" followed by "ohh my god what have I done, ... , ehh, lets try to look cool and hope nobody noticed". I know enough women in catsailing to know that in the end both men and women arrive at pretty much the same point but women and men take different route getting there, sometimes completely different routes. Maybe having a female instructor is not a bad idea at all. I also did find when teaching catsailing that quite a few women tend to talk themselfs down. With a female instructor their reasoning turns around completely; they think "what great to see a female instructor make it in what I thought to be a mens world; she did it and surely I can as well !". There is no way a male instructor can start on that level immediately. It is also the women themselfs that tend to put the men at a higher level just because they think men are more suited to these kinds of sports. When I was a sailing instructor the most fun I had was when a couple showed up to have a testride of 1-2 hours. Often the women gave such a ride as a present to the guy. First thing they did was grap a chair and pull a magazine in order to wait out the 1 or 2 hours their men were away. The owner of the sailingschool immediately and always crossed this. He would say to the women, what is your size and start pulling out wetsuits. Then a familiar series of actions and reactions/protests would follow with the end result that both were going on the cat with a instructor. Great fun to watch. Typically the women would go and sit in the middle of the boat, to be out of the way of the guys who would soon start doing their thing. Best thing was to immediately propose to go trapeze out "as the wind was good and gentle here near the shore" BS of course but it works. With a little persuation and gentle steering she would go out and then you must slowly increase speed while paying heaps of attention to keeping the boat as calm as possible. Within minutes you'll be screaming along with the women overjoyed with the new victory she has achieved. Often she would would trapeze out pretty well while the guys tend to fumble about often. I put it down to the fact that women are far more willing to trust somebody else on the helm than men do. Men tend to want to have all the controls, when women often tend to want to feel that the controls are in more capable hands then themself. I say FEEL, because for all we know THEIR hands could be more capable then mine. This is the "talking themselfs down part". After the 1-2 hour testride the women would be transformed. She came in with a attitude of "I gladly do this for my man for it is not for me" to "He Joe, wouldn't it be a great idea to actually take some lessons and get a boat ourselfs !"

Absolutely wonderful experience, each time again. Nothing is more uplifting then to see an individual take a personal hurdle they thought they could not or would not take.

Of course the downside of this is that these women found themselfs in a situation where they were "put" on the boat. I think that a lot more women would be lured into these situation by other women for the reason I stated earlier. The

"what great to see a female instructor make it in what I thought to be a mens world; she did it and surely I can as well !".

At least that is what is my experience, as a (humble) man.

Wouter

My view is it is in the wiring. I am male, so you know my bias. I met my wife who owned and raced her Tarten 10 and she happen to have it docked next to my boat. Over the years I have wondered the very same. I have spent much time training juniors both boys and girls to race etc. I have watched the girls do really well and then not so well. I would ask why the poor performance and the response from the girl was so the boys would still like me. Yes, terrible but true. I believe that most women have other goals and dreams. Sure women can do just as well as men, they just do not happen to want to right now...In many situations the women tend to value a relationship more than steering a boat. Can they? Sure, but why when they can get men to do anything they want...My wife and I raced all types of boats however it is very difficult for two hands to steer the same boat. I encourage my wife to race our boat as much as she wants and yes it becomes very strained when I am on the boat in a race. Why? Because I want to win the race...she is still interested in the relationship thing..leads to shorts and faulty wiring...Good luck to the answers of life such as this... but I think the big reason may be those women sailors got married...
Respectfully submitted and one who has been beaten many a time by women skippers (P Glaser comes to mind)
Rich

OK, I'll bite...

I'll venture it's a personality thing. (awa gender/societally driven) The 'tomboy' girls, which are definitely in the minority of women, are the ones who would tend to be interested in sailing.

Now take that minority and divide it between ALL sports, and I'll bet your numbers will come out in proportion to the overall ratios of sports interest regardless of sex. (eg, there just ain't a whole buttload of interest in sailing as compared to other sports f'rinstance bicycling, skiing, soccer, drag racing, whatever). I mean, I arrived at boat racing via drag racing (used to have a '68 Dodge Dart w/383ci) and bicycle racing (pretty decent criterium/road racer at one time). The only thing I'd wished is that I could have been exposed to cat sailing earlier in life, but thass how it goes. I'd have fewer scars, I had a real nasty interaction with the macadam once...

Myself and the other few women I've met who do sail/skipper are to my best experience EXCLUSIVELY 'tomboy' types. Certainly the most competitive women are, well, rather butch ;-) (An' I won't EVEN go into those insinuations I've received)

Thass my story an' Ah'm-a stickin' tew h'it
sea ya
tami

Well, that's an answer I bet no man will dare respond to. And it's about as accurate as an observation the wife of a famous cat sailor once proffered to her husband: "Most of the men who sail catamarans are nerds and geeks."

Hey! Nerds and Geeks? For gosh sakes.

I definitely consider myself to be a Tomboy, but I don’t think I fall into the butch category. I’m not drop dead gorgeous or anything like that, but I’m certainly not butch, and, I am very competitive and very much into sailing.
I’m wondering where it is that you sail because all the women that I know through sailing are not butch types at all. Some maybe more competitive and into sailing than others but its not distinguished by their appearance.
(Unless you are referring to women outside of the sport of catamaran sailing. Then I can’t comment)

By the way, I too wish I was exposed to sailing at an earlier age.

Tracie

Hi Mary,
Do you know who is the US Supercat 20 National Champion, 2003?
Good Sailing,
Her dad

Tracie: are you a nerd or a geek though... thats the modus operandi here :P

Example 2:

Geek:
1.
a. A person regarded as foolish, inept, or clumsy.
b. A person who is single-minded or accomplished in scientific or technical pursuits but is felt to be socially inept.

2. A carnival performer whose show consists of bizarre acts, such as biting the head off a live chicken.

Geek: n : a person with an unusual or odd personality


Nerd:
1. A foolish, inept, or unattractive person.
2. A person who is single-minded or accomplished in scientific or technical pursuits but is felt to be socially inept.


Just call me geek, minus the biting the head off a live chicken thingie.

Tracie

tami ... tomboy yes, butch no! I'd crew for you any day, always guarranteed fun! (The real kind you jerks, get your mind out of the gutter!)

Thanks Clayton, and I'll get on your boat any day, me too!

I guess the term 'butch' has really been bastardised. To me, 'butch' means a 'boyish girl' rather than 'lesbian.' Sorry to have offended, but then what can one possibly say that doesn't offend someone in this diverse country?

So apparently my semantics got in the way of my POINT??

sea ya
tami

If the women who sail are all tomboys and "butchie," and the guys are all geeks and nerds, sounds like a pretty level playing field.

So now we know that to recruit more sailors, we have to advertise to NOW and to engineering schools.

By the way, I am both a tomboy (climb trees) and a geek (socially inept). This means that I love to skipper, but only if I am the only one on the boat.

Um...I never implied that butch stood for or meant to be a lesbian.

Tracie

Us cajuns look at butch as tomboy + 1. Or she'll kick your #$%& if you look wrong. BTW what is lezbans or what ever? (Just kidding )

Merry Christmas to all from the other 'gater country.

Clayton

I'm still wondering how people define "tomboy." Does it have something to do with what you look like, how you are built, what you wear, how you talk? How do you KNOW that a woman is a tomboy? And what does it MEAN to be a tomboy?

I am having an identity crisis.

Webster's says:

Hmmm...that begs the question: then what does it mean to behave in a boyish manner?

I guess if she sails then she is a tomboy and if she beats you at the races then she is a ____________ . (better sailor than you)

Mary, I'll go out on a limb here (if someone cuts the limb out from under me you'll be the blame )

IMO a tomboy will wear a dress if forced to, and play the games that normally guys play even if it means injury is imminent. They are tougher than most and probably will not be found behind a desk answering phones for a stuffed shirt corporate executive. Not that there is anything wrong with that of course (dang you've got to cover your #$% nowadays).

Butch, IMO, is being more like a man than most men and is not into mushy stuff like, well ... dating, dancing, watching movies that don't include machine guns and blowing up stuff.

I'll stop now before I start to get hate mail.

Clayton

The interesting question is where did the name "tomboy" come from--that is, what is its derivation? Its kind of fun to look up common phrases to see how they derived. Its surprising how many come from nautical terms. For example, "three sheets to the wind", which means someone out of control (usually drunk) comes from the fact that small sailing sloops have three sheets that control the sails; starboard and port jib sheets and a main sheet. If the sloop was "three sheets to the wind", it meant that the boat had all its control lines flying downwind, not cleated to anything and therefore not controlling the sails or boat. Anyone else have some common phrases that have interesting origins?

Merry Christmas to all! Santa is on his way!
David
H20

Rick has given me his opinion of what a tomboy is. He says it is a woman who can be very feminine but who also can play on a co-ed softball team, play tennis, sail, ride a motorcycle, intelligently discuss sports with the guys, cook, sew, clean house, take out the garbage, chop wood and stoke the stove, feed the pets, and nurture children. He said, in other words, a tomboy is a well-rounded woman.

So I asked him what you call a man who can play football, race motocross, play tennis, play softball in a co-ed league and also can intelligently discuss fashion and hair styles with the ladies, cook, sew, clean house and nurture children. I asked, “Wouldn’t that be a well-rounded man?” Rick said, “No, that would be a sissy.”

(Webster's Dictionary, please take note.)

Thank you Rick,

and apparently you left out "shoot her Ruger .22 and her Mauser 30.06 more accurately than her ex AND her beau".

I'm different than most girls, and I'm ok with that, whatever they want to call it, I dont givash*t. Why do you care, you?

sea ya
tami

I'll back Rick on that definition.

My goddaughter will be here tomorrow. She's been on the catsailors site and found the 12:1 [I bought ] in a pic. She now says "that since a I have 2 mainsheets systems one can go on ths FMS20" so she "can handle the skipper duties her self". She has mastered the wrapping an old man around her little finger part and is well on her way into manipulating me into giving her the boat to sail. But she does it in a straight forwrd manner. "You're gonna give me that boat after you teach me to sail it." At least i get to go...

The input of some on this thread has highlighted her behavior. She likes road bikes, playing softball/soccer, Nascar, watching football, catsailing, trisailing, refinishing hulls, talking to old men in controlled scenarios [rest homes, church, marinas, etc] as well as trying to con me out of my dog...[dog is off limits even though when she spends the night I never see the dog]. I would call her a young "Charlie" girl for those old enough to remember. She likes jeans but will dress up without a fuss for an occasion that requires it. Does not like/wear much makeup or jewelry. She likes her hair long but keeps it mostly in a pony tail style with no hair on her face.

Tomorrow we put the F25c in the water and she will start the outboard without help from me. This I want to see but I have no doubt it will happen because shes read the manual several times. We maybe there all day but it will start.

I hope you all have as good a Christmas day as i know I will,

thom

How about "He is a loose cannon" ?

Comes from the old sailing battleships on which the mouth loaded cannons needed to be pulled back to relaod and than push forward out of their ports to fire. The cannons were on wheels therefor and kept in check by many ropes (ooops lines) and pully blocks. Sometime a cannon brok loose and the rolling of the ship in the waves would run the heavy cannon on wheels all around over the gundeck or just straight through the wood work on the otherside taking everything with it. Try to stop on of those ! Hence "loose cannon" = Big trouble


Wouter

So ...

What ever the defintions are we don't have enough of them right ?

And that goes for the sissies as well !

Wouter

Why male ear piercing of the left ear is cool and the right is not:

As I learned this morning from Tim Zimmermann's book "The Race", in the mid 1800's the world had just figured out that it made more sense to sail from Australia and China back to England (or to the eastern U.S.) by sailing the Southern Ocean in a route of circumnavigation. It became customary and dignified for sailors who had sailed around Cape Horn of South America to pierce the ear closest to the Cape as they blew past (and survived)...the left ear. And with this I presume that to pierce the right ear meant you were clearly headed in the wrong direction!

Speaking of definitions, and back on the topic of this thread, perhaps I should rephrase my original question and ask "Why so few women on the HELM?"

To me, skipper and helmsperson are not synonymous words. On a two-person cat, there is a helmsperson (driver) and a foredeck person (sail-handler). Both of those people are members of the crew. And either of them can be the skipper. The skipper is the person who calls the shots, makes the decisions, plans the tactics and strategy, decides when to zig and when to zag.

Sometimes the skipper is the driver and sometimes he or she is the sail-handler.

I can understand why a lot of women do not feel comfortable with being the skipper, but I can NOT understand why they would not want to drive if the other crew member is the skipper.

Obviously, driving is the least physically demanding job and, in most cases, best suited to a woman (lighter touch on the helm, better feel for the speed, more able to focus and concentrate on the telltales and keeping the boat in the groove). Women learn this stuff really fast.

In the light to moderate wind conditions that dominate most of the U.S. in the summer, it makes the most sense for the woman to be at the back of the boat steering and the man up forward where most cats need the weight in light air. In heavier air where you need the weight back (and where the woman might be more intimidated steering in big seas and wind), switch and put the woman in front and the man in back.

And you can even switch positions during the race, depending upon who does what best on different parts of the race course. Back in his early days on the Tornado, Rick put his youngest son (about 10 years old at the time) on the helm so that Rick could be out on the trapeze and handle the sails and call the shots. Rick would be on the helm for the start and maybe for crucial mark roundings, and then they would switch places so Todd could steer and Rick could be in a better position to balance the boat and trim the sails and call the shots on the open portions of the course.

If a 10-year-old child can helm a Tornado, any grown woman ought to be able to helm any beach-cat.

Good points.

I our case the problem is that fact that the helmsman is also regarded the skipper and there is a rule which states that the crew may not switch roles. We are going to request dispensation for this this coming year. So why is this a problem for us. The Start !

The start often is a whole lot of screaming and shouting and knowing when to blink and when not to blink. Typically other men don't try to push their luck with a male helm. My crew doesn't really feel comfortable in this environment. The other issue is that I've been doing starts for years now and actually have become quite handy at it. Being competitive as she is she doesn't want to loose out on this very important part of the race.

I can see myself do the start, trap out first using the forward wires and walk to the front while passing the tiller to my crew. As you say Mary I would probably stay the skipper and call the shifts and tacks.

So the answer become "Why not, indeed" ; only issue in my case is the skipper rule which doesn't make much sense to me anyway. On bigger vessels the skipper often doesn't steer himself as well.

Wouter

Wouter, what class are you talking about that does not allow the crew members to switch off on the helm? Rick says the only multihull class he knows of that does not allow it is the F-28R, and that is because they don't want the owner bringing in a ringer to take the helm.

When Rick and his son were switching off on the helm in the Tornado class, somebody protested, and the jury refused to even hear the protest, saying there is no such thing as skipper and crew, there are two crew members on the boat, and no rule to prevent them from doing any of the crewing jobs on the boat, which include helming, or from switching jobs during the race.

I agree. Back in my T days I sailed with three women who loved to steer but that was it. They didn't want anywhere near the mast raising/dropping, boat launching, etc. But when it came time to steer they wanted the helm.

One was an Army nurse just back from SE Asia. She showed up every day she could. Why? When she sailed the boat thats all she could think about [DSS]. She married a catsailor and moved to California. I believe they just bought an F9A this year after giving their original 1977 Nacra to their daughter. I believe it was a 1977...it was the first year they came out.

The other two bought an H16 and a P16. Both asked me to negotiate the deals. Don't ask me why because all I did was follow their instructions from 3x5 cards with price and terms. After that it took both of them less than a year to get engaged/married. Basically they married the same guy...tall slender strong and a catsailor.

My god daughter has realized that a FMS 20 is going to be more boat than she thought and now wants to crew for awhile. Being 12,she has the right to start off as a crew and work into the skipper position. She took what was left of my sailing library back with her today. As well as the phone#/email addresses of the two women that sailed with me earlier this year. How do women seem to be "attached" almost instantly. Whats the connection or where does it come from? The three of them were together more than she and I spent together. She came to see me... Even my dog ignores me when they are around.

Paula I lost your email. That pic of you and your "tomboy" looks like you have alot of good times ahead.

thom

It is not a class rule but a club / national organisation rule.

But I think the orgins of the rule are vague enough in order to kill it.

I think it has more to fo with tradition then that there really was a consious decision to force this.

Anyway we'll see at the new years meeting.


Wouter

Mary,
You made an interesting point about the way women learn:


I taught skiing in Vail for nine seasons and in the majority of cases when I had a husband and wife in the same class who skied at about the same level, the wife improved more quickly. This was due, in part, to most women's style of using technique rather than brute force and ignorance. It also had a snowball effect: the wife felt satisfaction and accomplishment, therefore could relax and continue to improve, while the husband just got more and more pissed off that the wife was doing better, and therefore he was distracted and couldn't learn.

I also noticed that husbands who tried to teach wives how to ski almost always failed miserably. I could see them from the lift. The semi-competent husband is shouting direction at the wife as she stumbles down some beginner run. The wife gets sick of being shouted at and heads to the lodge for a coctail (or to sign up for a ski lesson) and the husband goes his own way.

Apply this to sailing and you might see a similar situation. Since it's a male-dominated sport, it's usually the men (husbands?) teaching women how to sail. Since it's easier to teach from the helm, where you can see what's going on, women first learn to crew. The men, who hate to relinquish control, don't bother to teach the helm position, and the women remain intimidated by the mystery of stearing and are satisfied with the progress they make at sail handling. It's also often a male skipper who is still learning who tries to coach a female crew and scares her so badly with his mistakes that she's affraid of taking the helm.

In cases where I've raced against women drivers, they have been very competitive and unafraid. In one case, a woman in our H-20 fleet called up the top sailor (a man) at the start and forced him over early. He was furious and told her that she wasn't supposed to do that and threatened to "come after her twice as hard next time." His ego was obviously bruised and she was hurt that someone she thought was a mentor would turn on her for making an agressive, but totally appropriate move.

I hate to support stereotypes, but perhaps it's an overly aggressive male ego that unconsciously keeps women off of the helm.

Slight Digression, but Mary and I lived Vail for almost ten years. She was the first editor of the Vail Daily. I was an entertainer for apres ski music.
Great times.

I can also relate this to skiing. When Mary came to Vail I did nothing to teach her to ski. She did it all on her own. I was out of town on a road gig and she took lessons every day.
Then one day she asked if she could ski with us (you know.., the guys!) We did the bowls, northeast under the Lions Head lift and the rest and she was right there with us the entire time.
Wouldn't have been, had I tried to help.

Rick

My wife just didn't like being blasted in the face with cold salt water. Also, I once dumped her into the Gulf during a red tide outbreak. Gives "swimming with the fishes" a whole new meaning.

Then again, a college perfesser once told me women are more highly evolved than men. Somehting about dentition but I fell asleep.

Pete in Cape Coral

Dentition? Cutting teeth?

Mary,

By now I'm sure you've noticed the high number of responses. Obviously, an excellent question! As for me, I can't offer an answer; when I learned to sail, as a kid, there were just as many women (girls really, as we were all young) at the helm as men (boys). I must also add they were all excellent sailors - demonstrating good seamanship and often leading the pack in local races.