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Singlehanded cat sailing

Posted By: rbj2

Singlehanded cat sailing - 12/31/03 06:41 AM

I'm looking to buy a new catamaran primarily for singlehanded sailing but it might be nice to have a crew along on occasion. I've got two years experience sailing a 17' planing monohull dinghy but very little time on catamarans. Primary interest is going fast and having fun on inland lakes; racing not my primary interest but this could change in the future. I've read the previous posts but still have some unanswered questions.

1) Would it be a mistake to go directly to a high-end modern cat like a FX/one or Taipan 4.7 as my fisrt cat? Are these designs really only for racing or also good for recreational use and are they any harder to sail than typical beach cats such as the H16?

2) Is it safe to assume that a F18 catamaran such as a Tiger would not be well suited for singlehanded sailing, particularly by a sailor new to cats? Is the main issue getting overpowered (too little human ballast) and difficulty in righting singlehanded?

3) Can a 170 lbs single sailor right a turtled catamarn such as an FX/1 or Taipan 4.7? Only in certain wind ranges? Any aids needed? Also, will masthead floats absolutely prevent turtling or just reduce likelihood? I would think that a lot of wind pushing on the tramp with the mast to leeward could bury a float in waves and brute force a turtle despite the bouyancy.

4) As a singlehanded sailor, will I be limited to uni (ie, will I need the ballast and extra hands of crew to sail with jib and/or spi and if not what is the upper range of wind that people typically sail singlehandedly with jib and/or uni)?

5) Does anyone know where one can see any FX/ones and Taipan 4.7s in the Seattle, WA area?

6) Any input on why to choose FX/1 vs Taipan 4.7 would be very much appreciated!

Sorry for the long list!

Jerry
Posted By: pitchpoledave

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 12/31/03 07:02 AM

Hi Jerry,
I don't think that it would be a mistake to go to an fx or taipan 4.9. However, any boat that you get will probably get more wear and tear as you figure it out. Such as moving it around the beach, trailoring, righting it etc. I think the taipan 4.9 is the better boat.

I definitely would not recommend a Tiger for a new single handed sailor.

As for righting, not sure, but I think that it should be ok.

I would definitely choose the Taipan over the fx because I think that the formula classes are the way of the future (F16HP) over one-manufacturer classes.
Also I think that the 4.9 is more versatile (uni/sloop/spin)

And yes you don't have to sail uni if you are singlehanded. You might want to put a furler on your jib for when the wind comes up. I can sail my Nacra 6.0na single handed up to about 15 knots, jib furled, and its a beast of a boat, so the 4.9 should be a lot easier.

Another consideration is what everyone else in your area is sailing. This is important because if (when) you start racing it is better to race against like boats.

Definitely get a ride on each boat you wish to consider.
David
Posted By: phill

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 12/31/03 07:31 AM

Jerry,
The T4.9 is a great boat and you would be hard pressed to pass it up if you are considering one. Just so you know the most frequent national title holder in all the Taipan ranks sails a T4.9 Uni and when I spoke to him last he was the same weight as yourself.
No matter what you use the boat for racing or recreational sailing its all about balance and feel.
Sail them all and buy the one that has the best feel.

Regards,
phill
Posted By: ejpoulsen

T4.9 owner - 12/31/03 08:08 AM

I've had a Taipan 4.9 since last July. I'd be happy to answer any questions about it. I've seen the fx-1 but haven't sailed it--so I could offer some "anatomic" but not performance comparisons. If you get down to Calif, I'd be happy to take you out. There are now two 4.9s here.

As far as rightability, I've righted my 4.9 solo fine several times and on one occation in extreme conditions--heavy Pacific seas, spinnaker wrapped around the top of the mast, etc. I was capsized for quite a while while I got the spinnaker put away; the mast retained its bouyancy and never wanted to turtle. This is because the top section of the mast comes from the manufacturer (AHPC) sealed with a foam plug, providing adequate buoyancy.

The 4.9 is a wonderful boat to sail in terms of feel, whether uni (solo) or sloop (w/crew). In terms of performance, the experienced racers (definitely not me!) can equal or beat Tigers boat for boat.

As far as cat sailing experience goes, if you can sail a planing dinghy you should have no problem switching over. In fact, you'll find it a lot easier to go fast without crashing! The other 4.9 owner in Calif had previously been sailing a Musto skiff.

I'm not a believer in the philosophy that everyone needs to start cat sailing on a Hobie 16. (Isn't that like saying new drivers should start in an old 1970s Honda civic rather than a newer design?) I'm more interested in modern designs and interesting technology. It's much more fun sailing a well-designed machine than one with inherent defects you've got to learn to compensate for. Definitely go ahead and jump in at the deep end.

An F18 would not be a good choice for single-handing. Sure, it could be done. But much more managable would be the 16-17 footers. Also, you're bound to get the itch to enter a race once and a while--better then to have a boat that is designed to be raced solo (like the T4.9 uni or Fx-1)

Here's a list of other boats you might consider besides the T4.9:

Stealth F16
Swell Spitfire
Swell Shadow
Jav 16 (pending?)
Blade (? if avail. yet)
Inter 17R
Inter 17 regular
Hobie Fx-1
Nacra 5.5 uni
Nacra 5.2
Nacra 5.0
Hobie 17
Isotope
Sea Spray (hey, don't laugh--these things fly)

One advantage of the 4.9 and Stealth is that they were designed as versatile boats from the get-go. They're set up for either uni or sloop sailing while the others were designed specifically one way or the other (okay, I know a jib can be added to the fx-1 or H17). Also, the highly developed rigs of these boats allows you to tune them for a wide range or wind conditions. Having said that, I get pretty trashed sailing solo if the wind is >18-20; may just be lack of experience on my part.

Good luck--lots of excellent options...Send me a private message and I'll give you my phone # to answer any other questions directly.
Posted By: H17cat

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 12/31/03 09:08 AM

Hi Jerry: We have a very strong fleet of Hobie 17's in the Seattle Area. I have been sailing one since 1987, my son Tom has had his since 1989. There are two now stored at Sail Sand Point, Magnuson Park on Lake Washington, see www.sailsandpoint.org. The local market is also good for the Hobie 17, check the classified section in www.hobiedivision4.org. You might also want to check with Dan Carpenter, at Hobie Cats Northwest in Kirkland, our local Hobie dealer.

I would be glad to take you for a ride, or arrange to have you link up with one of the H-17 sailors at Sail Sand Point. If you do want to get into racing, we have a very good local group, and be glad to help you get started. We usually get about 10 Hobie 17's out for our Division races.

I live in Issaquah on Lake Sammamish, and am in the local phone book. Give me a call.

Caleb Tarleton
Posted By: Steven Bellavia

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 12/31/03 03:00 PM

Hi Jerry,

I had all the same items on my wish list as you, and purchased a new Hobie FX-1. it was a VERY tough choice with the same exact boat, the Taipan 4.9. In the end I felt the Hobie was better overall, though just my opinion. I went with the jib option versus the spinnaker (my personal belief is that spinnakers may be detrimental to the sport, but that's a topic for a different thread). I've attached a photo.
In summary, I leaned towards the Hobie (after not owning a Hobie since 1989, after which I had 3 Nacra's) for the following reasons:
1. Felt there was a better chance of a growing class with the FX-1. (Especially now that the Hobie 17 is out of production). Even if you are not racing, there IS strength in numbers, better re-sale, etc.
2. The FX-1 was more "conventional" - the mast is stepped from the rear while boat still attached to the trailer, sail is hoisted with a halyard...
3. It looks nicer

Of course, to be fair, there were cons too:
1. At 170 lbs you will just barely be able to right the FX-1 yourself. The daggers are long and strong enough to stand on, so you can skip the pole systems (which I tried and found about the same as standing on the boards).

2. The FX-1 is heavier than the Taipan4.9 by about 80 lbs. (Bit it's also bigger).

You shouls also consider a used or new Nacra 5.5 Uni (which is the same platform as the two-person Nacra 5.5SL), and also the Nacra 5.0 and Mystere 5.0 which are excellent entry level single and two-person boats.

Feel free to contact me offline, and we can discuss more over the phone....

Happy New Year!

Steve


Attached picture 27491-profile_with_jib.JPG
Posted By: Inter_Michael

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 12/31/03 05:08 PM

If looking for ease of rigging, ease of righting....and a fun and fast fleet to sail with....

Have you considered an A cat? There are now about 10 in the Seattle/ Portland area. It is a very "simple" boat in the rigging aspect, however it can be also very technical....depends on how much you want to play or pay.

For single handed racing, you may also want to check out the H-17. There is also a fleet of them around the area as well....but at 300+ lbs....not as easy on the rigging...

There are I think 1 or 2 Inter 17's in the area....aside from having a chute (great time!)....they are still in the 300 lbs range...

Michael
Posted By: Flying_Frog

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 12/31/03 06:16 PM

Inter 17R.

No questions the funniest boat I`ve ever sailed.

Trapezing alone under spinnaker is a feeling hard to match.

Check my old out of date website : http://www.oricom.ca/philippemascolo/site%20francais/mon17.html

I`m a lazy poster, so seeya
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 12/31/03 06:20 PM



I will try to answer the points that were left open by the other posts.

On the other point I agree with the other posts entirely; especially "try the all out and than make your choice"

-1- Skiff sailing. Which 17 foot skiff have you sailed ? Going from skiff sailing to catsailing is relatively simple and if it was a spi skiff or one with significant wings than getting straight to a high end single hander should not be a problem. There are some differences in how the rig works and I don't advice going out the first time in 20 knots. But when you know how the cat differs from the skiff rig them (a couple of weeks if you learn quickly) then any high end Single Hander should be fine.

Pro's of older singlehanders like the P16 or P15, nacra 5.0, H14 etc is that you can get them cheap and get alot of bang for the buck. But racing them is not much fun anymore now that everybody got fast cats. I still like my own (first cat) P16 a lot (even after owning several other 18 footers) but in racing I much look forward to racing my Formula 16 and not finish at the rear hoping for a good handicap time.

-2- Biggest problem will be to right the F18 ; apart from that it is done now and then. The F18 controls are good enough to depower it in most conditions although you'll hit the end somewhere (about 14 knots I was told). Then there is the weight. While sailing this is no problem but after a good sail the weight will break your spirit when it has to go onto the trailer. I have Beach parking but sold my 18 footers because I was getting really tired of pulling these up the hill in soft sand we have on the beaches. It is a great workout but I began to really hate it.

-3- Answer this question depends on the type you are looking at; just being 16 or 17 foot long is no garantee you at your weight can right it. If sailed 18 footers (A-cat) that I could easily right myself and 16 footers (H16) which I couldn't. Apart from this I agree with the things said about the different types by other posters; these are also my experience with these named types

-4- Mast float. Don't do it. Of all the boats mentioned non have a tendency to turtle on his own without a float. Floats are needed for narrow mast boats like H14 and maybe other 14 footers like the Dragoon, Wave and mystere 4.3. But all the 16 and longer boats have more volume in the mast because its needs to have a bigger crosssection area to withstand the bending loads. The new Wingmasts seem to be impossible to turle all together even when you keep hanging off the boats from the wrong side.

-5- Singlehanded rigs; I've sailed/raced anything singlehanded from just the mainsail. To sloop + spi. The more sails you have they more you need to work while sailing to get everything trimmed right. In manouvres this even more so. I've raced the sloop setup singlehandedly and after an initial period of getting used to it you will become used to it and be able to do this up to high winds. Spinnaker is more difficult but also faster in lighter winds. And of course you don't have to pull it in the big winds. Selftackers will make sloop sailing solo really easy. I've raced sloop up till 20 knots. It is a slightly different game but when you learn its differences then it can be done quite well. On such rule it to never just uncleat the jib in big winds when it is backwinding the main. Point up or down to the safety zone first and then reset the jib. A main that goes from backwinded to not backwinded can generate a sudden jump in heeling force of about a factor 1.5 On a singlehander this means capsizing. On a doublehander this means and "oohh and ahhh" with the skipper saving the situation by quickly letting the main out.


-6- The rig dimensions of both the FX and Taipan are identical. I've sailed them both for quite a bit and can comment on them. However I am heavily involved in the F16 setup to which the Taipan "belongs" If you trust me enough than I can describe the differences in a private conversation. I will not directly compare pro and cons in public. This is sort of an unwritten rule between class officials and between dealers. And I think much has been said already in the other posts.


I would like to end with a suggestion of looking at the Stealth F16. All european boats (which includes the hobie high end productline) are relatively expensive now due to the nosedive the dollar took over the last 6 months. The UK build Stealth has alomst kept its price in US$ the same; it is now a very price efficient boat. There is one in South California as well so may get a test ride on that one as well.

To answer Erics question mark (Blade ?) building of the first production boat is starting now. It is also done in EU so it may suffer from the Euro;dollar rate. It should come out near to the Stealth though.

Wouter
Posted By: flounder

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 12/31/03 07:40 PM

I single-hand my Nacra 5.2 (17ft) all the time. I am 175-180lb. I keep the jib on until the wind gets over 15mph.

Last year in AUS I tried out a Taipan 4.9. What a fun boat... excellent little rig. You will have no problems.
Posted By: ejpoulsen

Re: T4.9 owner - 12/31/03 07:45 PM

Oh yeah, I should also add,

Supercat 17
G-cat 5.0
Posted By: Slow_but_clueless

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 12/31/03 08:02 PM

Inter 17-R (used).

Leave the spin and 'sprit on the beach until you are comfortable handling on the trap, then rig the chute for blast reaches. Optional jib package, but I don't think there is a DPN with jib; would give the crew something to do if you went two-up. IMHO, the uni-rig was designed-for and is plenty efficient for the design weight of single-handed. I am 178# and not overpowered below high-teens of breeze. No problem getting it back up using the stock righting line and standing on a board (after swimming the bows upwind and uncleating the main).

You don't have to tune perfectly in the beginning, but isn't it nice to have all that control once you start to need it? You can always sail a fast boat slowly, but you'll forever be limited by a slow boat. Gotta have boards to go upwind and a spin to cook downwind, and what fun are roundings in traffic without having three-too-few hands?

Advantages of I-17R: Although a lot going on and challenging to master, great performance, great helm. DPN considered favorable by many. Decent number around U.S. fleets for OD scoring. S-O-T-A I believe for factory design and production. Plenty sturdy, I thought (some complain that side hulls flex when standing on them; so don't--corners and non-skid are stiff). Great dealer and factory support (was important to me).
Posted By: Wouter

Correction on the Mystere 4.3 - 01/01/04 03:04 AM

I wrote :

"Floats are needed for narrow mast boats like H14 and maybe other 14 footers like the Dragoon, Wave and mystere 4.3"

I have just been informed that the M4.3 mast section is the same as that of other Mysteres (5.0, 5.5, etc); it doesn't require a mast float at all.

I know the wave has one, the H14 needs one and the Dragoon needs one as well in my personal experience.

I stand corrected.

Wouter

Posted By: brobru

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/01/04 04:33 AM

Jerry,
Whatever you decide to get,..you will be a pleased sailing 1-up Uni.

I have a 2000 Inter -17 normal.

The 'normal' configuration means an aluminum mast 18 inches shorter than the 'R' carbon one. That is it.

We sail in the Caribbean, specifically US Virgin islands, in the Equatorial Trdewinds that blow 15+ ( waves 2-3) 95% of the time. A friend sails a FX-1 here also.

Never have any of these boats failed in these sea/wind conditions. It is nice to know the quality of boat you are sitting on when unexpected weather is upon you.....yes?


In the race season, many times the wind is 20+ with a little bigger waves,....these boats fly......the FX-1 'hops' over the water as the I-17 'plows' thru them....you never 'back down' as the boats are usually tougher than the skippers.

In fact, it would be very interesting to put a I-17 normal next to a I-17R in 15+ winds and see what happens

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix
I-17n
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/01/04 05:30 PM

Bruce,

The I17's are great boats. I have an I17R. You asked what would happen between an I17R and an I17........Like in a race?? I guess you could race them PHRF, but boat against boat is no contest. In the Nationals, we had several days with winds nearing 20 knots. The boat did well and all nine I17R's flew their spinnakers on the downwind legs!!!

Go to Keysailing.com for pictures!

Tom Turlington
I17R #124
Pensacola, FL
Posted By: BRoberts

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/01/04 05:33 PM

Hi Jerry,
I came to catamarans after 30 years of sailing high performance monohulls, dinghys, like your experience. You don't have to and should not start out sailing beach cats that won't tack and pitchpole in a heartbeat to learn how to sail beachcats. Beachcats are much easier to sail than monohulls. They are more highly powered and therefore the feedback to the sailor's actions makes a bigger difference in boatspeed. The boats are responsive; they talk back to you and with your experience in monohulls , you will catch on and come up to speed quickly.
To your questions: 1. Get the boat you really want first. Do not buy an old design, hard to sail boat that won't tack. The higher performance boats are much easier to sail and much more pleasureful to sail than the one you mentioned.
2. I have no experience there.
3. First of all a catamaran that turtles easily, like every time it turns over, is not properly designed. It is not a safe boat. It is not a necessary characteristic of a catamaran to turn turtle every time it turns over. This is the exception, not the rule. If a beachcat is properly designed, it won't turn turtle. There is enough volume per unit length in the mast, bouyancy, that the boat will not turn turtle when turned over.
When a beachcat turns over, tramp to windward, the boat immediately spins around to a tramp to leeward orientation. This is because the tramp becomes the sail and the center of drag now is out in the middle of the sails and rigging which are in the water. The turned over system is only stable with the pulling force, the tramp, downwind of the drag force, the wet rigging and sails.
4. There is a 17' US built beachcat that is designed to be sailed by 1 or 2 persons. It has a true self tacking jib so it can be sailed by 1 person with jib and main or 2 persons. It also comes with a spinnaker and spinnaker launcher and retracting system if desired. The spinnaker option is usually sailed with 2 persons. This boat also comes with a factory righting system for one person righting and it doesn't turtle.
5. and 6. No experience or knowledge.
Good luck,
Bill
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/01/04 05:37 PM

see attachment......although my Spin. did get stuck. Had to round the opposite of setup

Attached picture 27528-tom1.jpg
Posted By: Jake

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/02/04 02:24 AM

Bill,

Are you suggesting that there is a such thing as a turtle-proof catamaran (in the context of this 'beach cat' discussion)? I disagree - I can't imagine any cat capsized with the trampoline bottom perpendicular to a stiff breeze that won't turtle. That is, unless it's equipped with some sort of a mast tip float. However, I'll concede that some are prone to turtling faster than others.
Posted By: rbj

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/02/04 02:58 AM

To those who have responded to my questions, I really want to thank-you all for your excellent, detailed, and thought-provoking replies! I am really impressed with the catamaran commumnity if you guys are representative... On the one hand, you've succeeded in answering/resolving many of my issues; on the other hand you've raised at least as many new issues as you've solved! I guess I wouldn't love this sport if it was easy...

Your tolerance permitting, a few more add-on issues:

1) Fisrt, my experience was not on a skiff (wish it was!) but rather on a fast 17' daysailer which does plane (Hunter 170); I've heavily modified it to make it much more performance oriented and allow it to handle higher winds but it's nowhere near as fast as a catamaran. I've sailed it singlehandedly as a sloop in 15-18 kts (its a handfull!) and as a uni with spi in 10-15 kts. I would hope the fact that my time was not on a skiff would still not be an issue in jumping to a modern catamaran design.

2) Second, I'd appreciate some clarification on a few issues:

a) In one of the replies it was described that in higher winds the FX1 "hops" over the waves whereas an I17 "plows" through them; have others seen this difference and what are it's implications (ie, is one faster than the other and is a boat that hops over the waves a more bumpy/jarring ride? I had thought that the FX1 had wavepeircing hulls that would perform similarly to the I17 and F16's. Do the F16's act more like an FX1 or I17 in hopping vs plowing waves?

b) Regarding turtling of cats: I've seen H16's turtle and I thought they have a wing mast with sufficient bouyancy. Is there a big difference in the turtling likelihood of H16's and the more modern boats? It's not clear which boats have masts which are well sealed or have foam in them. I wasn't really that concerned about turtling in "fun" winds such as 15 kts; the problem I was concerned about is that sometimes you go out in these fun winds and later find yourself in 30-35 kts! Even if I were to head home pronto at that point it would be easy to be overpowered and that's so much wind on a big tramp I have a concern that a catararn might not "spin itself around" (mast to windward) before the force on the tramp can plow the bouyand mast below the waves. Am I being overly concerned?

3) Finally, you guys have given me tons of food for thought regarding options and broadened the choices I need to learn about; since reading your posts I've begun the process of learning about some of the additional options. It's clearly going to be a tough call since all the choices (one-design FX1, Inter17, Nacra, H17) and F16HP's look so good. In fact, it looks like it's not going to be easy to see let alone sail many of these boats. It may help to get input on a few issues that were not addressed:

a) Thoughts on the tradeoffs between the hottest new technology/design (ie, Stealth/Blade) vs designs that have been around long enough to be proven but are still modern (ie, I17, Nacras, Taipan 4.9)? When is a design too new for non-racers to buy (ie, Stealth/Blade vs Taipan)? When is a "modern" design too old to be a boat with lasting competitiveness?

b) If I were primarily interested in racing, focusing on speed alone might make sense. But since (at this point at least) that's the secondary objective, issues related to 1) bulletproofness, 2) intelligent ergonomics in the layout of controls (ie, non-cluttered/foul prone; well suited for single vs double handing; accessible from the tramp edge and/or wire), and 3) quality of the ride/responsiveness in various (aka rough) conditions are very important to me. Which of these boats excell in these areas and which suffer?

c) The strength of the manufacturer (likelihood to stay in business and prosper) and it's dealer(s) will impact everything from resale value to availability of parts and service. Since I live in the US, I'd appreciate advice on whether it's wise to limit my choices to boats made by larger established companies with US dealers? Have others had problems dealing with smaller manufacturers, non-US manufacturers, or geographically remote dealers?

Thanks again for everyones great input,

Jerry

Posted By: trilliumtri

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/02/04 03:55 AM

Jerry, I helped a friend get into an Inter-17R in Seattle about 1.5 years ago. He's not into racing that much, and uses it both single and double handed, sailing out of Magnuson Park (Sail Sand Point) I've sailed the boat with him a number of times, and I think it's very close to the perfect boat for what you describe. The spi helps it really get moving in the summer, and it handles very nicely.

I also sail a Musto Skiff, and am looking at an A-cat for racing locally. I think I'd still prefer the 17-R, but it deosn't have the fleet in Seattle. The skiff is a blast as well, but *way* more difficult to sail, and physically considerably more effort, particularly in the light 5-6 knot wind range.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/02/04 05:45 AM

Allow me to take care of the F16, Taipan related questions.

>>I am really impressed with the catamaran commumnity if you guys are representative

Well lets just say you've picked us on a good day !



-1- Nice boat that Hunter 170. Main point however is ; No trapeze. This does make things more complicated. If you start out singlehanding then you will have your work cut out for you. I believe trapezing is best learned as a crew on a doublehanded boat. This is wise anyway to learn the differences between the boats and the tricks on a catamaran. This can be done relatively quickly. Did you sail other High performance sailboats with friends. Like Lasers or 470's ? It is just liek driving ; not particulary difficult one you got the hang of it but the first steps are better made with an experienced person on the seat next to you. I don't think getting P16 or Nacra 5.0 instead of a High End cat will make much difference in this.


-2 a- Dependents completely on the design of the boat. Even in a class like the F16's one design is more of a cutter and another more of a bouncher. It dependents on the conditions which is faster. The hoppers are more noisy and often wetter. The cutters more smooth and silent. The Taipan is a cutter and I believe the I-17 is so as well. The FX-one, Stealth F16 and Blade F16 are more of a hopper. The latter three are intended to create a component of dynamic lift (semi-planing) at speed and go faster as a result. On the other hand a while ago we made Brobu's I-17 (normal, not the R) go as fast as the FX-one of his sailing buddy despite his much smaller mainsail. Different boats take different tricks to make them go fast. Some will tell you that this boat is always much faster than some other but that is mostly an emotional statement. (of which I'm also guilty off occasionally). I remember Eric Poulsen telling me about the differences between boats he tried and telling enthousiastically about the downwind planing of one and them choose another design because of the slapping upwind as a result of the same flat bottom. I trully think this comes down to what you prefer. Most catsailors fall into one of two categories : Cutters and planers. Cutters like smooth boats, planers like noise and spray. A cutter with a planing boat will sail as poorly as a planer on a cutting boat. So it is like putting the right bolt with the right nut. Get the combo right and the differences between crews seem to largely disappear. So what are you ? With respect to F16's ; Taipan 4.9/F16 is definately a cutter, Blade F16 and Stealth F16 are planers.

-2 b- I don't think you are overly concerned; it is a good question. About wing masts. Its meaning dependents on who you speak to. In refer to teardrop masts when the crossection is a teardrop. I refer to wingmasts when the front is an elliptical instead of part or a circle and when the thickness is much narrower than the width. A wingmast is much more like an aircraft wing than the teardrop mast. Hobie 16, Prindle 16, nacra's all have teardrop masts. Hobie FX-one has so to (but doesn't turtle in my experience and I've been out in 25 knots on my side) I don't know about the I-17 R (I-17 = teardrop) , Stealth is teardrop, Taipan = wing , A-cat = wing, Blade = wing. From the Taipan Wing I know it is as good as impossible to get the mast deeper than its hounds even when trying hard by hanging on. A well designed platform can be quite easily righted from a turtled position with the proper technic.


-3 a- I think we must take care not to overconcentrate on relatively minor issues. I think all boats under current investigations are considered competitive and will stay that way for years (except the H17 which is discontinued). So I think the choice it , do you want to spend a good dollar to get one of the newer once or do you want to get out on a cat and have fun / learn. All mentioned boats Taipan, FX, Stealth, Inter, Blade, A-cat will set you back some while the Prindle 16, Prindle 15, Hobie 16, nacra 5.0 can be had for a very attractive secondhand price. The modern ones are all comparable in controls and fittings. The same with the older ones. A decision on max investment will narrow down the choice and discussion alot. A design is almost never to new for a beginner although the learning curve to a A-cat for example will be steep. But than again all are steeper than that on a Prindle 16 or Prindle 15. Newer also means more sensitive control while a older design must be "handled". Both have pro's and con's. I do think there are some differences between the current list of boats. Some boats talk more to you than others but non are bad choices.

- 3 b - Bulletproof : none (don't let anybody tell you otherwise not even Hobie folk) except the older types like H14, P15, P16 etc
Ergonomics : pretty much all. Differences come down on personal likes and dislikes
Single handing - doublehanded : All with slight preference to : Taipan/Blade, then Stealth then FX / I-17 (reasons lightweight and the fact that the F16's have (been designed with) jibs and not aftermarket jib kits);
Getting back on : I-17 has a pretty high freeboard, FX/Blade/Stealth slightly less so and Taipan is easiest to get onto after capsize. (can anybody concur?)
Responsiveness : all are good some are better. Taipan does very well for its age. Apart from that I think newness is a good handle to list the boats on this aspect.
Rought Conditions : Freeboard is key here so I would say the list is in inverse to the one about geting on after capsize.
Excell- suffer : I think I will have to let this one pass. I can't indulge myself in this while being a F16 class official.


-3 c- geographical location of dealors and builder is definately a pro. However it is not the end of all things. Shipping a mast over land can turn out to be as expensive as having it cross the ocean. Hobie gives good product support via their local agent. On the other hand everything most come from Hobie. More than few sailors prefer to buy their own stuff and sails with other suppliers. Shipping a sail from Florida to Washington state isn't that much quicker or cheaper than shipping one from Australia. I can't really comment more on this; I have an Australian boat so I have made decision in this. Mostly because I was shipping in Prindle parts outside my local dealor anyway. So for me not much has changed.

Hope this helps

Wouter
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/02/04 05:45 PM

FX-1 " hops "over the waves whereas the I17 " plows " thru them??

Was that due to the boat design or skipper's weight and positioning on the boat? I myself have seen my I17R plow thru waves while the I17R I was racing was hopping over them!! Skipper's weight equal. Skipper position..........he was on the very back of the boat. I was a bit forward.

My vote goes to the I17 as best boat. See attachment with spinnaker.

Tom

Attached picture 27560-NAT2.jpg
Posted By: ejpoulsen

You're lobbing a big superlative here - 01/02/04 06:03 PM

Hello Tom,

Your opinion is that the I17R is the best boat. I have no doubt that it is a fantastic boat. "Best" is a superlative rather than a comparative, speaking grammatically; it's a strong word that requires justification. Have you sailed, seen, or analyzed any of the other boats mentioned?
Posted By: BRoberts

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/02/04 06:33 PM

Hi Jake,
What I am telling you is that the mast section on all SC/ARC products was chosen to prevent turtling. When the top 8 to 10ft of mast is submerged, the displaced volume is enough bouyant force to prevent turtling of the boat with no one sitting on the upper hull. You can always drive any turned over boat turtle with a couple of 200 pounders sitting on the upper hull trying to avoid getting wet.
Turned over boats do not stay with the tramp pointed into the wind very long when the boat is first turned over if the mast has sufficient bouyant force to prevent turtling. The boat will spin around with the tramp downwind in less than a minute if the mast has sufficient bouyancy to prevent turtling in the first place. The SC/ARC mast section is the most streanlined section, Al extrusion, of any sections available for two person boats. What more could you ask of a mast, more streamlined and prevents turtling.
Bill
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: You're lobbing a big superlative here - 01/02/04 06:45 PM

Hi Eric,

I looked back during a race once and saw a Taipan 4.9. He was back a ways though!!

Just kidding. Actually, I saw a Taipan 4.9 last Spring. Beautiful boat! If they sailed them here, I would buy one, but we sail the I17R here. We have five locally now. So, that makes the I17R the " best " boat.

Happy Sailing,

Tom

Attached you will find two I17R's running for the finish line! The problem is I'm the trailing boat.

Attached picture 27564-17race pic.jpg
Posted By: ejpoulsen

Cutters vs planers - 01/02/04 07:18 PM

Hi Wouter,

I think that it is not so simple as some hulls are cutters (meaning they slice through the water in a displacement fashion) and some hulls are planers (meaning they ride atop the water like a power boat). We both know it's not that simple, and I don't want any newcomers to catsailing to be misled. The line between the two categories is very blurry. For example, the Stealth and I17R both have flat-bottomed but very narrow sterns while the Taipan 4.9 has rounded bottom but wide, voluminous sterns. The upshot is that both types of sterns can allow planing in certain points of sail and with crew weight in the right place. Upwind and downwind the "cutters" and "planers" (I like your term "hopper" better; and I would call them "slappers") each have different characteristics, but the fact is cats sail most of the time in displacement mode with occasions of planing. Cats easily exceed the dogma of "hull speed" due to the narrow, fine hulls and low wetted surface (esp flying a hull). I'm not telling you anything you don't know, I just thought we ought to get the info out so others aren't mislead into thinking one type of hull planes like a jet ski and other type cuts through like a tanker. It's kind of like the wave piercer discussion--all cats pierce through wave, but where volume in the hull is distributed determines the hull's response when piercing a wave. Cutters, slappers, hoppers, piercers...when you get out on the water, it's amazing how comparable the performance is between the categories. They may behave differently, but big differences have not been seen in speed.

As a side bar, I've noticed that hull design may be a surprisingly small piece of the performance puzzle. Look at how well the Tornado hull shape still performs (incidentally, the T4.9 is very similar to a mini Tornado hull shape except for the plumb bow). I don't know much about the Tornado, but from what I've heard, rig devolopment, light weight, and the best sailors are what keep it on top. I'm not a great sailor and I'm a novice at setting up my rig. But at least I got a light boat going for me. The Australians have, over the years, approached cat design differently than here in the States. Go back to the early 80s--in the States we were sailing Hobie 16s and the Aussies were sailing Mosquitos and Cobras. Goodall told me they tried to make light weight boats with very refined rigs--that's how they get speed; whereas the nacra/inter and hobie design m.o. appears to be more of a heavy boat, big rig, brute force approach to speed. Both approaches work, just different underlying philosophy, and that philosophy comes through in the differences between the designs. The I17R is a big boat (for a single hander) with a big rig; the F16s are smaller, lighter and have smaller rigs. So here's another way to categorize single handers--the brute force and the finesse groups. Every one of the boats in either category that I've been has been fun to sail. I guess that's really what matters.
Posted By: ejpoulsen

Re: You're lobbing a big superlative here - 01/02/04 07:29 PM

Hi Tom,

Having a fleet is definitely a good reason for it to be the best boat for you.

Best Rgds,
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Cutters vs planers - 01/02/04 09:51 PM



Indeed I try to tell in simple terms much of what you wrote down in more detail. The main issue for me is that a sailor that likes to sail smooth should not look for a hooper/slapper/planer/wavepiercer and vice versa. The combo is what works. That is what I intended to say in my finishing sentence of the paragraph. With regard to the term planing. No cat planes fully and probably never will. It is indeed more like "having a (small) portion of its weight carried by dynamic forces created on the hull. I personally believe that such surfaces allow you to drive the boat harder without picthpoling and that explains more of the (possible) speed increases than the actual "plaining".

Personally I agree that the rig is more important than the hulls and I have a very strong perferrence for one particular rig. I've sailed many others but never encountered the same feeling of control. Of course with such a responsive rig it is also very easy to downhaul it out of its groove. But I love the way she talks to ya.

And you are right about :"I just thought we ought to get the info out so others aren't mislead into thinking one type of hull planes like a jet ski and other type cuts through like a tanker."

That is why I commented on the Brobu's boat and the way it was made very quick with the proper tricks.

But I also think that we can't all explain it too JB in a few posts. With his current background he will go equally fast or slow on pretty much all types named. The differences are in the cost, lust for technology, looks, and support. And even there they are not that big.

And that is as far as I can go without heavy slacking on the boats of our competition !

Regards,

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Okay, okay guys Keep it cool ! - 01/02/04 09:59 PM



Come to think of it ; Wasn't the Inter-17 also designed in Australia ?

I guess it all dependent on where one sails. example Florida = Taipan land. Michigan = Inter-17 land

But I would prefer to see a criterium defined on which to determine the label "best catamaran" other then location.

Or is the Lada the best automobile because there were so many around in the former Soviet block ?

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

I've got one for you Bill ! - 01/02/04 10:06 PM



>>The SC/ARC mast section is the most streanlined section, Al extrusion, of any sections available for two person boats.


"What more could you ask of a mast, more streamlined and prevents turtling."

Lets start with the demand that it be trully unique !

Okay lets hear it; Width versus thickness and also the round of the ellips on the leading edge. If it is not elliptical up front then don't bother.

Wouter
Posted By: Colin

hull shape - 01/03/04 12:24 AM

Catamarans that have flatter shallower hulls tend to have more initial pitch stability because their longitudinal metacentric radius is larger. If you divide the second moment of area of the waterplane (at the LCF) by the immersed volume you get a good approximation of the metacentric radius at small pitch angles. With flattish hulls the center of buoyancy moves forward farther with the same change in trim - which means the longitudinal righting moment increases more quickly.

For most catamarans the effect of the flattish hulls on pitch stability is just hydrostatic.

- unrelated about the Tornado - I think their hull design is one of the main reasons they are so fast!

talk to you later
have a great weekend
-colin

Posted By: BRoberts

Re: I've got one for you Bill ! - 01/03/04 02:05 AM

Hi Wouter,
The SC mast section was designed in 1978. It has a design point chord of 6.5 ins and a max width of 3.25 ins for a slenderness ratio of 2.0. The cross sectional shape, width distribution, was obtained by using a NACA 0050 foil section. When compared to Hobie, Prindle, Nacra and Tornado masts of the same period, the SC section was the only one with a thickness to chord ratio as low as o.50. The actual absolute thickness, 3.25ins, and chord, 6.5ins, minus the sailtrack area determined the volume per unit length of the mast that was required to keep a 12ft wide by 20ft long catamaran from going "turtle" in typical turnover conditions. I tried slightly smaller mast sections, Tornado, but they let the boat go "turtle" so a new larger mast section was required to prevent this 12ft wide two person boat from going "turtle". It had a slenderness ratio of 2.0, better than any of the other boats of its time, and it would not let the SC20 go "turtle".
When I designed the SC product line, I was sailing in the Atlantic Ocean off Palm Beach, Florida. There are no bays or protected waters to sail in. There are no islands a couple of miles offshore to sail downwind of. There is just the Atlantic Ocean with the Gulf Stream marching North at 4 knots. This SE coast of Florida is "BEACHCAT CATAMARAN GRAVEYARD". I felt it was morally wrong for me to sell a beachcat to the public that would "turtle" when turned over in that ocean. I also felt it was morally wrong for me to sell to the public a boat that could not be righted by the people sailing the boat. That is why every SC and now ARC product ever built has a righting system as a standard part of the rigging. No other boat builder does this and some have paid the ultimate price for this decision.
Fast and Safe Sailing,
Bill
Posted By: rbj

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/03/04 06:13 AM

Guys, thanks again for the great feedback. So much to learn, so little time...

Wouter, regarding the lack of a trapeze on the Hunter 170: of course, you are right, but I did add a trapeze to my boat last season (one of many performance enhancements and the only trap equipped H170 in the US that I know of). I only got to use the trapeze (singlehanding) a few times before the water got too cold but what a blast! Might I actually find it easier to trap on a catamaran than a monohull? I did find it easier to trap sloop rigged because the boat had a fair amount of weather helm when uni rigged. There's no easy way to adjust CE vs CLR as far as standing rigging goes (and never had time to play with changing CB or rudder positions). I assume that uni configured catamarans can be setup for a balanced helm (via mast rake)? Anyway, pushing the limits of the boat and limited time on the wire is what ignited my interest in higher performance catamarans.

thanks again,

Jerry
Posted By: Jake

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/03/04 01:46 PM

Jerry,

By all means, trapping on a catamaran is much easier. Although we're stereotyped as being unstable, cats are a kazillion times more stable than monohulls (just try to step on one from a dock and you'll come to a full understanding). We just load up the boat with more horsepower to compensate! Seriously though, we usually trapeze much lower on catamarans than monohullers do because of the additional stability.
Posted By: DanWard

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/03/04 04:14 PM

Jerry...Balancing the helm is a function of rudder rake not mast rake. Raking the mast influences the total load on the rudders but the rudder rake determines how much of that load is transmitted to your hand. If you do a search on this forum you will find a lot of discussion on the subject. Good luck ...Dan
Posted By: Jake

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/03/04 04:33 PM

Dan,

We may just be batteling terminology, but adjusting the rake does affect the amount of helm you feel (since the helm force is a direct effect of the loading on the rudders). Up to a point, it is preferable to adjust the rake of the rig to compensate for helm since upwind performance is affected by the actual load carried by the rudders and boards (and the consequent lift generated).
Posted By: DanWard

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/03/04 05:34 PM

Jake...Of course you are correct. I guess I oversimplified things a bit...Dan
Posted By: jollyrodgers

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/03/04 08:45 PM

Get a used a-cat to start with. They are light.
What is the use of a single handed cat that is best moved by 2 people?
Turning turtle isn't really a problem. Cats can be righted from a turtled position. Also just swimming the bow around as soon as you flip will eliminate the worry of turtle.
1 exception to that statement is shallow water. If your mast tries to turtle, and drives into the bottom, it could bend or break. So, in shallow water, get to swimming that bow around asap.
The more you have to spend, the lighter and newer the boat you buy can be. For me 300# is a strain to pull up the beach by myself.
Basicly they all work and are faster than most monohulls, so for lake sailing any cat is fine.
Posted By: brobru

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/05/04 02:41 PM

Tom and all,

1. First of all,...if you all are poppin' chutes in 20mph,.....then you single-handed sailors have the 'right stuff'...congrats and applause to you all,..I am going to look at the pics you suggested

2. As to the I-17 hull relationship to the water,..as to being 'bow down' as compared to 'seeing light under the bow'....again, you are correct,...it is skipper weight placement......in fact, that is how i sailed the 1st year,..'bow up',.....first year on the boat for me and I was in the top 5 so I was happy,........

3....then the F-16 forum ( Wouter and the Austrailians and others),....dialed me in,.......this is definately a 'bow down' upwind design,...the whole design of the I-17 likes going upwind with the majority of the bow in the water,..I target mine at 50% to 80% submerged at full throttle, never thinking about 'backing down' either....the boat just likes it and,..if I do not blow a tack in a wave,..the I-17 usually is at the top mark first (...and I am an average skipper, ..so it is not me..).........as a note,..the I-17 will fully submerge the bow upwind but does not like it ( I am sure you have seen this),..for it is a precusor for a very nice,slow pitchpole (...because it is slo,..I merely throw my weight 'back and out' and the bow comes back)

4. The local FX-1 owner also has a FOX also ( similar hull design, FOX is bigger al around)....so I go sailing with him when there is too much wind for theUni's...and I like the term 'slapper',....which is what thes hulls do,....in fact the noise of speeded water 'slapping' the hulls drives me nuts.....these hulls, the front 2-3 feet litereally dissolve a wave to foam and spray,..it is an amazing thing to watch........also the transition to full volume in the hull, again amazingly, say at 3-4 feet from bow, this part of the hull never ( hardly ever) goes under the water( there are limits of course).

...bottom line,..todays' single haded cats are alot of fun,..you never wait for crew,...and all your buddies want to take it for a ride..


regards,

Bruce
St. Croix
Posted By: Wouter

My answer to rake - 01/05/04 04:24 PM



>>Wouter, regarding the lack of a trapeze on the Hunter 170: of course, you are right, but I did add a trapeze to my boat last season (one of many performance enhancements and the only trap equipped H170 in the US that I know of). I only got to use the trapeze (singlehanding) a few times before the water got too cold but what a blast! Might I actually find it easier to trap on a catamaran than a monohull?


Mostly so , yes. On the other hand I think the Hunter 170 is a daggerboard boat with balast in the bilge. This means it can't be capsized. Catamarans however can and cats do require a little more sensitive steering than a balasted monohull. Skiffs are entirely different of course, these require alot more finess on the helm. So for all intents and purposes I think the cat would be a most natural progression from the Hunter 170+ trapeze.



>>I did find it easier to trap sloop rigged because the boat had a fair amount of weather helm when uni rigged. There's no easy way to adjust CE vs CLR as far as standing rigging goes (and never had time to play with changing CB or rudder positions). I assume that uni configured catamarans can be setup for a balanced helm (via mast rake)?

They are. This, as you have seen, is a much debated topic among sailors but it all boils down to this :

-1- reducing the FEEL of weather helm can be done both by mast rake and rudder rake

-2- reducing weather helm itself can only be done by mast rake.

Point -2 is advice from a performance point of few and it is often also the easier of the two to adjust. Certainly on cats.

Think of it in this way. Both mian and jib have their won CE and the combine CE is somewhere between these two.

The best performance is achieved when part of the side loads are carried by the rudders as well. Otherwise these add only drag for no gains at all. Assume the protions of the loads are optimally distributed between board and rudder. Now take away the jib. The new CE moves to the position of the CE of the Mainsail. Ergo, the leverage of the new sail force to the baord and rudder changes. From now on the rudder takes a large portion of the sideforce and the board takes too little. Now you can mask this away by reraking your rudder but your performance will still be suboptimal. You can bring the performance back to optimal again by raking your mast further forward and bringing the CE of the Mainsail to the postion of where the combined CE of the slop used to be.

Often mono's do allow the mast to rotate a little forward or backward. Upgrading your hunter may be as simple as placing chainplates between the (shortened) stays and the hull points.


Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

I'm sorry to inform you, Bill, That ... - 01/05/04 05:07 PM


Them I'm sorry to inform you that the SC/ARC mast is not the most streamlined aluminium mast for a doublehander nor singlehander.

Summary: The SC/ARC mast : has a design point chord of 6.5 ins and a max width of 3.25 ins for a slenderness ratio of 2.0 was designed in 1978 and is of the NACA 0050 type.


The mast section (which shall remain nameless) I hold in my hand right now (a cut off from a full length section that was to long) was designed in the mid 80's.

It's minor axis max length (= max width) = 63 mm = 63 / 25.2 = 2.5 inch
It's major axis length (including the sailtrack which is part of the fairing) = 151 mm = 151 / 25.2 = 5.99 inch = say 6 inch

Its slenderness ratio (as you defined it) = length / width = 151 / 63 = 2.397 = 2.4

Of course its frontal projected area is only = 2.5 / 3.5 = 71 %

I have difficulty in decyphering your elliptic tip measure. "It has a design point chord of 6.5 ins". I'm far more familiar with defining tips like these by the radius of the approximating (smaller) circle. The mast section I hold has a approximation tip circle of radius 22 mm = 22 / 25.2 = 0.87 inch = about 7/8 inch. The mastsection wall leaves the approximating circle at 16 mm height = 16/25.2 = 63.45 % = 63 %. I also think that the design cord alone doesn't fix the round; it needs a second parameter. But I concede that I may have misintepreted the measure.

I don't know its base NACA foil section.

Nevertheless : with a higher slenderness ratio and reduced frontal area, the mastsection I hold in my hand is the better of your named section when looking at streamlinedness. I really don't think the elliptical tip round will differ much between the sections especially not since your mast is wider for a given length which forces the tip round to be less elliptical.



>>>When compared to Hobie, Prindle, Nacra and Tornado masts of the same period, the SC section was the only one with a thickness to chord ratio as low as 0.50. It had a slenderness ratio of 2.0, better than any of the other boats of its time

Ahhh, but this is not what you've said in your other post.

You clearly stated (and I quote) :"The SC/ARC mast section is the most streanlined section, Al extrusion, of any sections available for two person boats."

I hold a doublehander alu mast extrusion in my hand that is counterproof of your statement.

Fast and Safe Sailing as well Bill,

Wouter


Posted By: MauganN20

Re: I've got one for you Bill ! - 01/05/04 05:26 PM

Quote
That is why every SC and now ARC product ever built has a righting system as a standard part of the rigging. No other boat builder does this and some have paid the ultimate price for this decision.


Not true. The Isotopes made by international fiberglass come standard with a righting pole that is more than adequate to right a boat their size.
Posted By: flounder

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/05/04 06:09 PM

I haven't had too big of a problem with my Nacra 5.2 turtle-ing. Seal the mast, and be quick to jump on a hull.

Couple benefits of the Nacra 5.2:
1. Racing, the Portsmouth rating is very favorable. Pull off the jib and race it single handed and the rating barely changes. In 3ft chop you can stay with Hobie 20s up wind or atleast I have.

2. Cheap... $1300-$3000

3. Solid construction and company support.

Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/05/04 06:35 PM

Hey Bruce,

It wasn't as simple as just saying, " Hey, it's blowin' up around 17..... 18 knots , Let's go for a sail and pop the chute!" It was the Nationals and they didn't cancel. I'm thinking............ " are we really going to race in this?" Then it's like...." are they really going to use their spinnakers in this." So when the front 3 or 4 I17R's immediately popped their chutes after rounding " A " mark and their masts took the load, I raised mine also and what a ride it was!!!!! The boat seemed to just fly. We were racing in the bay; not the gulf! I only flipped once .......... it happened during a gybe. Big gust, I think.

Happy Sailing,

Tom
Posted By: Wouter

And ... - 01/05/04 11:19 PM


And anybody needing a righting pole on an A-cat is to young to be sailing alone anyway !


Wouter

Posted By: BRoberts

Re: I've got one for you Bill ! - 01/06/04 01:29 AM

Hello MuaganH17,
Well good for Isotope. I've never seen one of those boats in Florida. Here we have Hobies, Prindles, Nacras and I20s, G cats and a few Mysteres and Tornados and some A cats in Jacksonville. Maybe if that Nacra off the coast at Daytona had a righting pole, someone would not have lost their life and a beach cat company would not have been put out of business.
Bill
Posted By: BRoberts

Re: I'm sorry to inform you, Bill, That ... - 01/06/04 01:49 AM

Hi Wouter,
A 2.5inch by 6 inch mast would not do the job for me on the SC20. I did not survay the world for existing extrusions but I did survey the US and English and Italian mast extruders back in '78 and no one had a mast that would do the job except for some that weighed form 2 to 4 pounds per foot. The Tornado section, 3inches by 5.5 or 6.0 inches would not do the job. I broke three Tornado masts in three months, identical breaks. The extra 20% of boat width and double trapeze of the SC20 more than overloaded the popular Tornado mast at that time. The section you point out probably wouldn't stand up to two persons sitting on the windward hull of a 12ft wide boat and it certainly would not keep the boat from going turtle in case of a turnover. The section you suggest is academic trivia relative to the problem I chose to solve.
Bill
Posted By: sail-s

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/06/04 03:32 AM

Jerry I think a FX1 would be a really good choice as I have heard nothing but good reports about it and yes the resale value will be good should you decide to sell it. I know I may get blasted for saying this but if you are looking for a light weight single hander to sail on small lakes (or big) the Hobie Bravo is a blast. Last year I sailed mine on the desert lakes in Eastern WA. and never had so much fun before. Actually sailed on the small lakes that I am told were never sailed on before by the locals. Mind you the Bravo is not a high speed cat but it’s a blast to fly a hull on, etc. If you were to buy one a boom kit is a must otherwise down wind sailing will really suck.

As for not being able to solo right the H16 well that is not true as I solo sail my H16 all the time and have capsized on several occasions and solo-righted it just fine and I only weigh 150 lbs.

I am biased as I am the Hobie dealer for Eastern WA, North Idaho, and Western Montana or those are the areas I have been serving and the Bravo was a well liked boat in those areas with no complaints after purchase. Actually sold some to Laser sailors and they like it more than their old Lasers, and that is saying something as several of them are active Laser sailors.

Email me if you have any questions at cart@sail-s.com
Posted By: brobru

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/06/04 03:37 AM

Hey Tom,

I went to the www.keysailing.com site,...did not locate the pics of the regatta mentioned,....can you give us a specific link?........really want to see the I-17R in action

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix

ps..the spin run must have been a real blast for you all!!
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/06/04 01:32 PM

Bruce,

After you get to the keysailing web site, click on the sailor's page. Then scroll down the 2003 schedule to Performance national date which is underlined. Click on that. Then you'll see Perf. Nats. again click on it and there are like 9 pages of pictures and a brief write-up. I believe page 4 shows the pictures of the windiest day. Not too many I17 pictures but you'll get the idea from the other ones F18, I20, NACRA 5.5 uni, and NACRA 6.0, etc.

Tom
Posted By: brobru

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/06/04 10:31 PM

Tom and others,

1...nice pics,....looked like a good time..............maybe you guys(gals) should come down here for Nationals?

2. Talking about design,......I saw the F-18 in Rolex-St. Thomas in March 2003,..........I thought it was a I-17...! if viewed from the bow, looking back,....the hull design is real, real close,.....just 6 inches longer,....what do you think?


regards,

Bruce
St. Croix
ps.....it has been blowing 20-25 for about 3 weeks now,...it was 25mph at 10 pm!
Posted By: hobiegary

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/07/04 12:42 AM

While my solo sailing style is out of your league with your 300 pound rocket-ships, I must say that I have been enjoying this thread of posts. It is very encouaraging to see such harmony and active participation on this forum. It seems that the new year is off to a very good start here!

Best of luck in your choice of new boat!

GARY
Posted By: rbj

Re: My answer to rake - 01/13/04 08:24 AM

Wouter, thanks for your (most recent) excellent reply and input.

Regarding the H170 and trapezing/capsizing/ballast, it is a centerboard boat with a small amout of weight in the centerboard but none in the bilge or anywhere else (I think it has 30 or 50 lbs in the centerboard). In fact, the boat capsizes quite easily - just standing on the rail will put the boat right over; I've test capsized it a couple of times to see how easy it would be to right. The boat wasn't designed to be singlhanded so it would be easier to handle with another person or two on board. The hiking straps and trapeze I've added have really helped.

Regarding adjusting the H170 mast rake, the boat has adjustable chainplates on the upper and lower shrouds but these are only good for adjusting tesion on the rig, not mast rake since the forestay is fixed length and an integral part of the furling jib. The only solution would be to add a shackle above the furling drum to lengthen the forestay but then the helm would likely be unbalanced when sailing sloop rigged.

I recently heard someone say that there aren't that many new Inter 17's, FXone's, or F16's being sold these days because many/most of the people buying a modern singlehanded catamaran are buying A Class cats, even if their interests are primarily recreational and not racing. I did not include A Class in my original short list despite the fact that the low weight was very attractive because I thought it might be too fragile and not as well suited for recreational sailing as it is for racing. I had assumed A class sailing characteristics would be quite similar to the FXone/Fox due to what appears to be a similar hull shape. Is this fundamentally true or is it in fact a more demanding boat to master due to it's lighter weight, requirement for and responsiveness to tuning, and it's need for finnesse as your subsequent post suggests?

Anyway, thanks to you and everyone else for the great advice.

Jerry
Posted By: Wouter

Re: My answer to rake - 01/13/04 03:46 PM


Jerry,

You're welcome.

Seems like the H170 is getting to be a more attractive boat with the post. Only 30-50 lbs balast is not much indeed. What a great daysailor ! Spinny, planing hull, roomy and not much weight. And fast as somebody in another post commented; she looks pretty as well. One learns something new every week as theysay.


With :"just standing on the rail will put the boat right over and I've test capsized it a couple of times to see how easy it would be to right." If this is the case than I think you should be able to trapeze off a cat very quickly. Mainpoint to learn with trapezing off a cat or skiff is one needs to develop a feel to keep the boat stabil with steering and careful sheeting. I do know a few mono classes with alot more balast and these boat are far more docile or even can not be capsized by a crew on the wire. This is not the case in your situation it seems. I trust that you'll put the boat over when you're one the wire and make a mistake ? If So than I think I will have to correct my opinion back to :"any singlehander will be fine, even modern ones"


>>Regarding adjusting the H170 mast rake, the boat has adjustable chainplates on the upper and lower shrouds but these are only good for adjusting tesion on the rig, not mast rake since the forestay is fixed length and an integral part of the furling jib. The only solution would be to add a shackle above the furling drum to lengthen the forestay but then the helm would likely be unbalanced when sailing sloop rigged.

Actually you need to shorten the forestay when removing the jib. The CE of the mainsail alone must be moved forward when removing the jib and its contribution in the CE. By teh way must sailboats have what is called a Pigtail high in the forestay near the mast. Often replacing this with a chainplate or shorten this and put a chainplate in will allow teh forestay to be adjusted. The pig tail is there as the jib can never go up all the way to the mast and the block / furling drum needs to placed a little away from the mast. May this is a good option on your boat to get the CE right ?


>>>I recently heard someone say that there aren't that many new Inter 17's, FXone's, or F16's being sold these days because many/most of the people buying a modern singlehanded catamaran are buying A Class cats, even if their interests are primarily recreational and not racing.

People say alot of things. A-cat class is doing great no doubt about that and that is good. However A-cats are not really outselling the F16's in the way it is presented. First I would like to add that we are a lot younger than the A's and that we don't have a "replacement" market yet. If a class has a few hundred boats sailing in the world than the class is bound to have a sizable turn-over due to replacing aging boats. It is not realistic to demand simular numbers of a much younger class with significantly less boats around the world. But more importantly the comment suggests that sales are dropping from levels in previous years; This is not correct. I can't speak for the FX-one and I-17R although I think the latter is doing well in the US as well but the F16 class is increasing the number of sales. Also the condition in the comment is not correct. "because many/most of the people buying a modern singlehanded catamaran are buying A Class cats" First all F16 secondhanders are scooped up within the month, this doesn't indicate declining interest to me. Currently we have a little supply side problem for the US. Secondly, our market share is far more based on the 1-up/2-up flexibility. Our builders reported that even singlehanded sailors buying one of these boats always buy the jib setup with it. I know of only one exception to this tendency. The main group interested in the F16 class are recreational sailors with kids or a want to occasionally take somebody else along AND the lighter weight racing crews. We started the class on the first group but lately we see the latter group becoming more and more important. People will blast me for this but I do see the F16 class taking increasing numbers of sailors from current lighter crews class like the Hobie 16 and Dart 18. And this is a completely different segment from what the A-cat does or even can cater for. The a-cat has pretty much achieved its penetration over the last (30) years and the F16 still has a huge potential before it. Therefor I don't really see the A-cat as competing for the same sailors and thus I think the comparison is off. Furthermore I would like to see a cooperation develop between the A-cats and F16 just the one developping between the F18 and F16 class. I think the boats are close enough in performance (without a kite) and it will be enjoyable for the both of us. I think that a combined little event is held in Florida this year. It think that is very cool. But I'm getting off topic.

In short ; F16 and A-cat are not competing for the same sailors and a large portion of the basis for F16 class is drawn from a different segment which the A-cat can not compete for. We are in general NOT seeing declining numbers or even a declining interest. I would argue the opposite on the mails I receive with questions on the boats.



>>>I did not include A Class in my original short list despite the fact that the low weight was very attractive because I thought it might be too fragile and not as well suited for recreational sailing as it is for racing.

I don't think A-cats are fragile. Of course, it is not a Hobie 16 or even an F16, but we shouldn't expect that of this class that is not her focus. But fragile ? No. Before the blasting starts on why I said "Or even an F16" let me explain this. More weight to go into reinforcements and smaller leverage dimensions and the fact it is designed for doublehanded racing makes the F16 stronger. This is not the same as saying the A-cat is fragile or not strong for it's intended use, but it does mean that I wouldn't want to take somebody along or double trapeze of it in 15 knots of wind. That was never the intend of the beast called A-cat. Personally I do think you stand a good chance to find a second hand A-cat for a normal budget. For the F16's you can forget about this; only buying new is your option now and the Dollar exchange rate doesn't help at this time. What is up with this dollar taking a freefall ? But then again all new A-cats have the same problem as they to come from non dollar companies. Now you understand why I really would like to see a US based F16 builder. Again I'm getting of topic.


>>>I had assumed A class sailing characteristics would be quite similar to the FXone/Fox due to what appears to be a similar hull shape.

No, no, don't make that assumption. The differences can actually be quite big. Even the difference between the FX-one and Fox are by some described to be very significant. Even between two A_cat wavepiercers the differences can be really noticable. Test sail each boat and base you decision on that. That is the only dependable way.


>>Is this fundamentally true or is it in fact a more demanding boat to master due to it's lighter weight, requirement for and responsiveness to tuning, and it's need for finnesse as your subsequent post suggests?

It is as simple as this :

-1- more tools = more experience required to tune it correctly
-2- less weight + more power = more skills required to make the boat behave as intended
-3- more low drag designs = more finnesse you need to develop to get the max out of the boat.

How can I explain this. By an example maybe. The speed of a low drag design (lightweight) is more determined by aerodynamic limits of a given rig setting. This means setting the right camber and sheeting angle of the rig. On a boat without these controls like a Prindle 16 there is not much you can do except concentrate on getting the windshifts and laylines right. On an A-cat and F16 a good crew will be able to get a few % more speed out of the conditions as well by being better at approximating the ideal camber sheeting angle combination. This may require the adjustment of the rig by anything from 2 to 5 controls. Some of these controls liek spreader rake need to be set before going out on the water. This requires experience to get it right. For recreational sailing this is not really important as going fast is going fast but in racing it does matter.

>>Anyway, thanks to you and everyone else for the great advice.

You're welcome.


Wouter
Posted By: rbj

Re: My answer to rake - 01/14/04 08:40 AM

Wouter,

Once again, great post.

>>I trust that you'll put the boat over when you're one the wire and make a mistake ?

In a heartbeat. Since I'm early in my learning curve I've avoided swimming by not trapping on very gusty days.

>> Mainpoint to learn with trapezing off a cat or skiff is one needs to develop a feel to keep the boat stabil with steering and careful sheeting

This very thought occurred to me the first time I pushed off the side of the boat with the sheet in one hand and the tiller in the other! Actually, I found it reasonably manageable and tons of fun once I was out. The hardest part was getting out with the tiller in my back hand and the uncleated mainsheet in my front hand since there was no easy way to keep steering AND stabilize myself with my back hand (to get my rear leg out) as I pushed off with my front foot. I could do it without stabilizing with my back hand if the helm was reasonably balanced but it felt stange since there is a tendency to pivot aft until I could get my rear leg under me. Even harder to do with major weather helm (cat rigged). If there's an easier way to get out singlehanded with better control, I'd appreciate learning from you!

>> Actually you need to shorten the forestay when removing the jib.

I knew you'd catch that mistake when I re-read my post after submitting it (another brain meltdown...)! Originally when sailing sloop rigged I had too much lee helm. I looked into adding a shackle above the furling drum to fix that but it turned out that just retensioning my shrouds fixed the problem so I didn't have to. Your idea of adding a chainplate to the pigtail is great suggestion!

Finally, I thought your comments about A Class and F16 were very lucid, balanced, and well stated. I agree there is some overlap but they are different animals and I appreciate your clarifying that issue. I want to compliment you on the excellent job you did on your F16 web site formulating an exciting new class which appears to be very complimentary other existing classes.

Jerry
Posted By: Wouter

Re: My answer to rake - 01/14/04 01:54 PM


Jerry,

>>If there's an easier way to get out singlehanded with better control, I'd appreciate learning from you!

Do you have a cleat on your mainsheetblock ? I find it a great help to point a little to high then cleat the sheet to the right setting of a lower course. Than move he sheet to my aft hand with which I also hold the tiller. Than I use my fore arm and rear leg to get out while letting both the tiller and sheet slide gently through my hand. Sometime I tuck my rear hand next to my body before getting out and extend it while getting out. This often gives good control. Right after or during getting out I point a little lower and thus powerup the craft to keep me off the water. I have to do it without a cleat on the 49-er I skipper now and then but this is alot more difficult as the smallest variation in sheeting cause the boat to rock from side the side.


>>>Finally, I thought your comments ... were very lucid, balanced, and well stated. I want to compliment you on the excellent job you did ... formulating an exciting new class ... complimentary other existing classes.

Thank you very much for your complements Jerry. It was what we were aiming for; And I say "we" as Kirt Simmons (USA) and Phillip Brander (Aus) were part of it right from the start. Their contributions were invaluable ; I often stand in the lime light as chairman but as Newton said "... it was because I was standing on the shoulders of giants"

Wouter
Posted By: h17windbtch6333

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 01/14/04 07:17 PM

When I had the same decision to make I went with the Hobie 17. I know it is obsolete but what makes it great is- it's a classic! MOre over, It is simple, easy, cheap and fast to set-up. Yeah, I race like once a year so the latest hip thing wasn't a concern. My main concern with a boat is how much $ to buy and run it. I'm sorry, I am not buying anything for $5k-$10k that doesn't have a motor on it! My point is- How much $ do you want to blow. And remember- the more $ a boat the more complex the system is. Do you want one hour set up, one hour take down? Do you want something you can leave on the beach for a couple days/weekend without it being swiped?
Posted By: rbj

Re: My answer to rake - 01/15/04 09:17 AM

Wouter,

>> Do you have a cleat on your mainsheetblock ?

Yes I do. I didn't cleat it for two reasons: 1) I was sheeting in as I pushed off rather than changing my heading as a means to counterbalance, and 2) I was pushing off with my front foot rather than my back foot since the swinging moment on the wire is forward; since my front foot was stabilizing the forward side of my body I really didn't need my forward hand to hold the trap handle so sheeting in as I pushed off was not too difficult.

I'm under the impression that most people push off with their front leg? It's certainly an easy way to get out if your back hand is free to stabilize you. If I push off with my front foot, I only have two choices for my back hand: a) just hold the tiller and steer (requires I push off hard enough to temporarily overcome the tendency to "pivot" aft until I get my rear leg out - problem is balance is off temporarily; even trickier in waves), or b) hold the tiller extension between my rear thumb and forefinger as I rest my rear palm on the rail to stabilize me as I get my rear leg out (problem is that for a couple of seconds I'm not steering).

>> I find it a great help to point a little to high then cleat the sheet to the right setting of a lower course... Than I use my fore arm and rear leg to get out while letting both the tiller and sheet slide gently through my hand.

That's a very interesting idea; I hadn't thought of pushing off with my rear leg due to the tendency to swing forward. I'm assuming that you are not using the trap handle at all when when you push off (neither did I)? Does this approach work well for pushing out both beating and reaching? Would it work as well to just cleat and then fall off as you push out (or is it necessary to first undersheet and then head up)? It sounds like you have the option to keep the cleated mainsheet in your foreward hand with some extra slack (rather than transfer it to your aft hand)? I'm definitely going to have to try your approach! It will be interesting to see if it works as well on a monohull with a less powered rig.

>> I have to do it without a cleat on the 49-er I skipper now and then but this is alot more difficult as the smallest variation in sheeting cause the boat to rock from side the side.

And I bet if you do it in gusty weather with an unbalanced helm it would really be lots of fun!

Finally, in your last post you aslo mentioned that it would be nice if there was a US manufacturer for an F16 class boat. I have to agree! It's an attractive class and that would make it much easier for me and others to go the F16 route. Anything on the horizon for a US built F16 boat? Aslo, one of the compelling things about how you've formulated the F16 class (besides the versatility) is how in different configurations it can be raced against other classes on a non-handicapped basis (ie, F18 and A Class). Why were Inter-17 and FX-one not included?

Thanks again for the great advice,

Jerry
Posted By: Wouter

Re: My answer to rake - 01/15/04 03:49 PM

Wouter,


>>I'm under the impression that most people push off with their front leg?

That can be the case. I not sure if I actually push out with my front or rear leg or just swing it over the side sooner. I do push off with the fore hand that is for sure. I tuck one of my legs under me so my toes touch the side of the boat then I roll back out over this leg using my fore hand to stabilize myself and my rearhand to take the controls with me. I guess I then put my other leg against the side and compete push out with that while flipping my first leg from shin to hull towards sole to hull. I never use the trapeze handle, useless thing. Well only on long long upwind beats where I have nothing to do and rest me hand on it much like most rest their hand on the gear shift stick in the car on long straight legs.

But then again I'm talking cats and your are talking mono's. I do it completely different on a 49-er but these also have a different trap setup. Their you lower yourself from a near vertical to a horizontal position. That is a whole different approach.

I'm sorry but I think I will have to be there to really help you.


>>That's a very interesting idea; I hadn't thought of pushing off with my rear leg due to the tendency to swing forward.

That is why I use my free front hand.

>>I'm assuming that you are not using the trap handle at all when when you push off (neither did I)? Does this approach work well for pushing out both beating and reaching?

I do it the same on all courses. Main point is to get out quickly without upsetting the boat to much.


>>Would it work as well to just cleat and then fall off as you push out

That is what I do when conditions call for that. It is what you have to do on a 49-er (but without the cleat).

You know I think I can tell you quite a bit about how it is done on a 49-er and other boats but it is to much type work to write it all down. Mono's must also be steered differently from cats. I would like to propose that we discuss this interactively by phone if that is okay with you. I can explain alot more in a 30 min call than 30 days of writing. Would this be acceptable to you ?


>>(or is it necessary to first undersheet and then head up)?

No, no undersheeting.

>> It will be interesting to see if it works as well on a monohull with a less powered rig.

Trapezing is trapezing. If there is not enough to trapeze out than don't do it. It is a simple as that.


>>And I bet if you do it in gusty weather with an unbalanced helm it would really be lots of fun!

You don't know that halve of it. One time we capsized 30 times in 90 minutes sailing. At the end of the summer I could do 100 push ups straight. Sailing (and recovering from a capsize) a 49-er can be a great bodybuilding excersize.

>>>Finally, in your last post you aslo mentioned that it would be nice if there was a US manufacturer for an F16 class boat. I have to agree! It's an attractive class and that would make it much easier for me and others to go the F16 route. Anything on the horizon for a US built F16 boat?


Well, the important preconditions are in place. We have two designs that are available for license building, we have two design teams (of which one is world famous) that have indicated to be willing to design a completely new brand unique F16 and we have a deals on important parts like the mast sections. Both Stealth (carbon) and AHPC (superwing aluminium) have agreed to supply other F16 builders with their mast or gear at very attractive prices when requested.

I also think that there is a market for it in the USA. A market that doesn't underdo for say the hobie Tiger market.


>>>Aslo, one of the compelling things about how you've formulated the F16 class (besides the versatility) is how in different configurations it can be raced against other classes on a non-handicapped basis (ie, F18 and A Class). Why were Inter-17 and FX-one not included?


This is also largely because I wanted a platform like that for myself. It is turning out to be the best selling point in the inventory. It appears that the founders were not alone in this wish. With respect to the I-17 and FX-one, they are included as far as I'm concerned. The grandfather rule allows these designs to be included in the F16 format. This may be a bit tricky when we have our Global Challenge in the future as for example the I-17 will not allow us in at their nationals etc but otherwise ;"come along show what you've got and have fun". Personally I think it would be great fun to have a "one-up nationals" where all A-cats, F16, FX-one, Inter-17, Hobie 17 and nacra 5.5 unis compete for the title best singlehanded sailor. We hav such an event here in NL and it does attract all makes. Wouldn;t that be something ?

>>Thanks again for the great advice,

You're welcome

Ohh check your mailbox on this site for some extra info. (phone number etc)

Welcome
Posted By: ABC

Re: Trapezing - 01/16/04 03:11 AM

Hi Jerry - and Wouter,

Just thought I'd add my 2c to the trapezing discussion:

I came to cat sailing from a monohull background as well and the first cat that I sailed only had one trapeze for the crew so I was on the side hiking with the straps. Consequently I developed the habit of tacking/gybing and subconsiously putting my feet under the straps.

When I graduated to my Taipan 4.9 7 years ago it just seemed natural for me to jump out on the wire (trapeze) from an 'under the straps' position.

After hooking up, I sit my bum over the edge of the boat and my toes under the straps, then I bend one leg up so my foot is on the corner of the boat and then push myself out. If you do it quick enough (once you get used to it) your body moves out fast enough to take the slack in the trapeze system before it drops down.

It works quite well for me most of the time except my crew tends to use the footstrap as a foot blocker and pushes herself further up the boat and can sometimes push it off the end of my toes as I'm trying to get out.

I've been trying to remember how I use my legs and I think that I always leave my left under the straps and push out with my right - I'll try to remember to check when I sail tomorrow.

re mainsheet and tiller - Both stay in their respective hands (tiller in rear, sheet in front) and don't get cleated or anything.

Everybody has different physical abilities and lengths of limbs so the important thing is to find something that works for you. I had one crew who used to perch on the side of the boat like a frog before she went out on the wire but she could get out as quick as me so it didn't really matter what it looked like!

Good luck deciding on a boat - I'm sure you won't be dissapointed whichever way you go.
Posted By: Sycho15

Re: Trapezing - 01/16/04 03:53 AM

If the new G-Cat 5.0T were shortened a few inches it would be an excellent candidate for the first US-built F16. However I realize it's not as simple as all that...
Posted By: rbj

Re: My answer to rake - 01/16/04 08:39 AM

Wouter,

Due to your additional input I have a much better understanding of your trap technique; I have to wait for the water to warm before I can tell you how it works! And thanks for telling me you do it differently on your skiff than on your cat... now I don't feel quite so confused why I couldn't translate the technique more closely. I also had to initiate trapping out more vertically on my monohull but thought this was inexperience (or lack of guts)... maybe it was just good (or lucky) balance instinct.

Jerry
Posted By: rbj

Re: Trapezing - 01/16/04 08:46 AM

Andrew,

Thanks for your input. It's interesting that I do the same thing with my footstraps. It allows me to power up the sails a little more prior to pushing off the rail. This may be particularly important on a monohull.

Jerry
Posted By: gregspittle

Re: Singlehanded cat sailing - 03/23/05 12:12 AM

Were you able to right it by yourself? Did you ever turtle it? If so, how did you right it?
Thanks.
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