kite sailing, anybody tried it?

I went to a site www.kiteship.com (it was mentioned in another thread)

I wanted to start a thread specifically on this topic. (not necessarily that brand)

Anybody tried it on a beachcat say an 18 foot bigger or smaller boat?

I haven't, but there is some guy who has tried every combination imaginable, including Stacks, i.e. many kites on one tether.

I'll try to find his link.

You are talking about Dave Culp, Speedsailing
http://www.dcss.org/speedsl/index.html

He went to Speedweek in UK years ago.
There are stories about stacks of older-style power kites attached to cats and early kites to water skiis.
There is even an action photo of a mastless Tornado, "Jacob's Ladder" being pulled heavenward by a stack of power kites: the crew abandoned ship at about 20 feet (up).

I'm part of the regular crew onboard Afterburner...a 58 ft Blade Runner catamaran (New Zealand designed/built). We are expecting to recieve a kite from KiteShip 1st week of March and will be trying for the first time a week or so later. This is all in anticipation of the Newport to Ensenda Mx race later in April.

Should be a hoot!

Mike.

Dave Culp is really getting his message trough I see..

The Farrier boat guys are testing them out now, and the term "chicken kite" has already ben used about a 30 square meters kite..

Would you care to tell us how big Afterburners kite will be ? I guess this is Bill Gibbs secret weapon against that 'new' ORMA 60 tri that has come to California

Not sure of the size the kite will be...will post when I learn more. Bill has had a 8 sq.Meter practice kite for more than 1 year now...but has never had a practice session with it ;-) He did offer it to me to put on my Tornado...

Mike.

Dont think it will do you much good on your Tornado round the cans, but it would scare the bejesus out of the competition

Looking forward to hear about your experiences with the big kite on Afterburner!

This is from the FAQ page of the www.kiteship.com web site.

Surely this is the killer blow for these kites on a beachcat at the moment.

Ok, Bill stated this weekend the kite will be 2400 sq.ft. on Afterburner. Kite arrives today (3/1). Practice weekend will be 3/20.

Whow, that is a whopping 223 square meters if I'm not wrong.

It will be awesome if you release that beast in a breeze! I can just vizualise Afterburner getting airborne, flying 30 meters and then calmly lands before the gawking monohullers

I have done some kite skiing with a 6.4 square meters kite, and traction kites are really strong pullers.

Wonder what the jury and regatta people will say tough ? It sure measures in as a spinnaker, but I think they will have some comments about flying it in an 'unconventional' manner and kinetics.

Looking forward to hear more about Afterburners new gadget!

I saw some guys kite skiing on the St. Lawrence River outside Quebec City, Canada last week. I have no idea what speed they were doing but it looked like somewhere around fifty miles per hour.

Looked like a good thing for the cat!

I think there is a kite for kayaks, gotta be something in between.

We were by Dillon Lake, Colorado last week and watched 3 different people kite snow-boarding on Lake Dillon. The winds were fairly light and shifting. They spent lots of time on their butts, then would be jerked upright for a short run, only to fall back on their backside, waiting for the next gust to lift the kite off the snow. This would be a real pain on a boat, unless you have a nice steady breeze that an ocean might provide.
When we were in Hawaii a couple years ago, we watched a guy trying to get into the water (on his board) while hovering his kite above him. Either a gust came along or he mis-steered the kite, but he was dragged face-down up the beach, through some low brush and into someones back yard.
Maybe the versions for boating will require less skill to use??
Jack

kiteboarding is darwinism in effect. I'd know, my roommate is big into kiteboarding, and has "recruited" me on several occassions to follow him on the H17 in case he douses his kite and can't get it going again. I've picked him and his worthless kite crap up many many many times.

Then theres the picture of the kiteboarder who did a face plant into the front of a dodge van... thats amuzing.

I once heard a tale (second hand) about a guy in Charleston who was bound and determined to learn kiteboarding the hard way. Having found a great deal on a monster kite he decided that he needed to be cautious at first. He tied his harness to a big rock on the jetti so he could practice flying the kite without getting out of hand (this was before the modern safety release kits too). To people like us, the proper thing here would have been to get a small practice kite to start with. After getting things going, he had the kite down low and really pulling hard...guess what...string to rock breaks and he is launched down the beach.

Not bleeding too profusely yet (darwinism) he decided that his brusing and scrapes were a direct result of the rope being too weak, so this time he doubled it up. Because the single line to the front of his harness also tended to make him rotate, he tied the double lines from the jetti to the front of his harness - one around his left side, one around his right. The wind is honking now. As soon as the kite gets flying and POOF it yanks him up off the ground with the two strings holding him firmly to the jetti. The strings he tied around either side of him are now squeezing him terribly threatening to disembowl him. He's screaming for mercy when some good sumaritan puts a knife to the lines on the jetti....BOING! Down the beach, over the dune, and across the street he goes screaming the whole way.

The guy doing the kite sailing was telling this story to a friend of mine a day latter - I suppose he was trying to explain why he appeared so beat up.

I know I come off as a yahoo of sorts from time to time on here, but really, Jake's story is the kind I've come to know about kiteboarders and their relative risk/safety ratio calculations. To me it just seems like most of them don't have a respect or fear of the power of wind. Ironically, all the kiteboarders I've run across were wake boarders / getting dragged behind a motorboaters before dabbling in wind-powered devices.

Actually,, I have seen some skilled kite-boarders do some remarkable things. What mainly interests me is the technology though, and how that might trickle into our sport, eventually. I made that suggestion to some of our local sailors, as a part of a recent spinnaker seminar, just a month or so ago. There is some interesting footage on the aforementioned website, www.kiteship.com , worth checking out. It is only a matter of time until it has some impact, probably in open class distance racing.

It was not that long ago (well,, maybe 17 years ago), that an outstanding multi-hull sailor (who I respect very much) told me that spinnakers simply do not work on catamarans. They were a radical idea then. So, of course, I rushed right out and had my first chute cut !!

New idea's just take time,,,

Keep at least one hull in the air,,
Alan Maguire

I have no doubt that it will impact catamarans eventually.

I just don't want to end up looking like the poor saps who have no idea what they're getting into

Just found this on http://www.wetasschronicles.com (tim zim's website for those of you that read "The Race")

Reminded me of this thread. Story of a kiteboarder that hit the beach, and kept on going :P



Big ole no thanks on the kites

Maugan, if nobody ever wanted to be the poor sap trying something new, nothing new would ever happen.

I would love to get a kite to try with my Wave (as long as it is attached to the boat and not to me).

But one thing I don't understand is how do you launch it from the boat and get it to go up in the air? I have never had much luck with flying normal kites on land.

Mary,

From what I understand, that's the tricky part. The current 'boat type' kite sails have to be reeled in and out. If they drop the kite into the water while it's flying, they have to reel it back and relaunch it. The kiteboarders have some kites that are inflated with air and I believe they can be more easily water launched but getting them properly oriented without swiming to it can be difficult.

Just for the record there is a couple of Yahoo groups that discuss constructing these kites and a free program you can download for designing your own kite. (www.foilmaker.co.uk)

I am thinking about making one at some point.

The kites used on water for the guys with the surfboard, wakeboards etc., generally have a leading edge spar which is pumped up like a bicycle tube. This is so they stay afloat if they touch down. Normally they use a kite which is proportionately too large so they are a bit overpowered. A friend has one and he tells me that after a session of kiteboarding your Abs are pretty exhausted.

There are lots of kite makers out there. Ozone I hear is one of the better and Naish (Robby Naish of windsurfing fame) makes them. (his company) His dad was pretty heavily into Hobie Cats in his younger days.

Anyways the web is full of info on them.

I am buying a cat or I would be buying a kite for kitesking and or boarding. Can't have everything! Am buying some new living room furniture. Gotta be fair!

This saturday is first test/practice on 'burner with the 2400 sqft kite.

I will also be bringing my on-board tracking system (Ham radio hooked to a gps) to transmit our position in real time to the internet. To monitor our track, use the following link:

APRS World

To see an aerial view of the region, use this link and click on the "Acme Map" link at the bottom of the page:

APRS World2

Expect to start seeing signals around 10 AM.

I should also mention that the tracking system is NOT reliable as an emergency locator as many things need to go right to get the signals out to the internet. Please don't hit the panic button if you see us "stop" and never move again...it's almost always a loss of the uplink for whatever reason.

Another kite incident.

(I know this thread has little to do with kitesurfing, I just don't want to start a whole new thread about it)

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2806562

blown into a fish and chips restaurant no less.

I still wasn't totally turned off from the kite thing and was still willing to give it a whirl...but naaahhhh...on a cat or windsurfer, you only get wet if a gust like that grabs you. I'll leave the flying to birds and airplanes.

I note Mark Michaelson did not mention anything about using the power kite on the 52 foot cat Afterburner on their way to Ensenada last weeekend.

Following our kite test some weeks ago, we decided we needed more time to work our a few problems we had trying to get it to fly out in front of the boat. We were unable to get it out from the shadow of the huge mainsail, so it was not as stable as it needed to be. Owner (Bill Gibbs) will be testing more in the future...

Mike.

I've been helping our local einstein with his kite powered cat project. Can't reveal any design details but we had a lot of fun on the maiden voyage - here is what I posted on texascitydike.com

Wow! Can't wait to see some details! I never thought about it but I bet it is nearly impossible to right a turtled catamaran without a mast on it. Perhaps some sort of system could be used to flood and sink one hull and then refill it by pumping in air? Perhaps this pumping capability would only be on the chase boat?

I was thinking the same thing about the two guys who went out unprepared in an off-shore gale on a Nacra 5.5 only to crash and burn and require coast-guard rescue (see previous thread).

Kite sailing is actually a lot of fun. Once you master control of the kite, which is best done on land with a smaller model, it adds a whole new dimension to wind-powered sports. Harder, to be sure, but really exciting. It also translates to winter use with skis or a snowboard. Of course you need to be proficient with this gear, too, so you don't end up crashing into stationary objects, but the potential is there to keep you into wind-powered activities year 'round with a minimum of extra gear.

Nice jab. I guess people don't forget.

In reference to the accident I have read three different news reports on that accident and all three give a different story.

However... You essentially have a 17 year old boy, no helmet, family watching, conditions way beyond his ability. Guess what would happen if you did that on/in any vehicle.

I have a faint recollection of the time when "testosterone ruled".

Kites like anything have to be refined by thoughtful designers with a strong inclination towards erring on the safe side.

The newer kites have depowering systems that dump the lift when you release the control bars.

I wish kitesurfing would go the way of the lawn darts.

Here'a a link to the American Kiting Association for a bit of info.
http://www.aka.kite.org/?traction.html

I'm developing a small Cat for kiting, it's steered with the feet like a kite buggy. First trials promissing...
See it on the site www.kite-cat.com
Any comments welcome, John

Interesting!

Peter Lynn apparently did some work with this idea. I believe he sold a verson.

I believe Peter Lynn's was a buggy with each wheel replaced by a float. I was told the turning cicle was very large. This one with normal rudders attached to foot pedals is very responsive in turning, and with a good pull from the kite, it leans back and really takes off. Hope to have some video on the site to download soon.
John

I agree... the design with lots of rocker and rudders and less length would definitely make it more manoeverable. Sounds interesting!

Thanks for your interest Alan. I've just bought a Naish ARX 9.5, 7.5 on Ebay to use with the Cat, as it has only been tried with foils so far. Except the time with the Slingshot 13 in a wind which meant it was overppowered. As soon as I have tried it with the ARX, will post some details.
All the best, John

for the record ... I am in the process of learning kitesurfing and it is an absolute BLAST! One caviat: it is dangerous. No playing around; please if you consider buying one and "winging it" ... spend the dollars and take a lesson from a professional ... I know that you think it is not applicable to learn to "ski / surf" as "I will be using this on a boat". Just to get used to the dangers and power of this extremely large beast ... take a lesson and save a live (your own and/or a bystander). These kites, inflateables or foils can dive at 35+ mph with 600 lb test lines at anywhere from 10 to 30 meteres (30 m is advised for learning) and can cut of a digit or two before you know it is looped around something. The flip side to the danger is the raw power when you dive it into the power zone. As someone above stated ... start small to figure it out. Several manufacurers make smaller foil versions to learn (but still very powerful) from around 1 square meter to about 5 square meters ... NOTE these "smaller" kites still pack a wallop and I would recommend just "tea bagging" or dragging around in water to learn. Take a lesson and try it out ... Very addicting and gives a new level to light air fun ... instead of plodding around in 8 to 10 mph .. you can plane / gybe / jump in same wind.

My 2 cents, Mac

Yea, that bridge will ruin your day. Doing a "George of the Jungle" will leave a mark. (not on the bridge)

Clayton

I'm interested in trying a kite sail on my NACRA (sans mast). I've found lots of info on kite sails, but next to nothing about how they attach to the boat. Where? On a track? Anybody seen anything on this?

CapmWoody

If you are thinking of the KiteShip type setup, then they can be attached anywhere you think is strong enough. On a beach cat, a good place would be on the main beam at the inner gunwales. Perhaps with a turning block at the bridle tangs. You don't want to attach to the mast, as the point is to eliminate the heel moment. When we set this up on Afterburner (a 52ft beachcat) we used a halyard line on the mast to control kite height when launching/recovering. Everything else was at deck level.

See www.KiteShip.com for details on their systems.

Mike.

http://www.amoka.com/movies/bergo.wmv

haven't tried it, but have seen one on a 3 man outrigger canoe. the kite lifted the canoe most of the way out of the water on the jibes. they told me it flipped once and took off without them. no fun.
they could get upwind alittle even without boards and with round bottoms. once airborne the platform isn't very stable. if you manage to stay with it after a capsize, rightng shouldn't be a problem. the mast doesn't really help you right a turtled cat. the righting line does.

Sailing (well sorta) and Skiing at the same time. Fantastic

The Texas City story is old now. WHat happened with Einstein and his kite-cat?
Dave Culp and Kiteship are not really interested in beach cats.
Does anybody know about Robby Naish's gear, and appropriate kites for beach cats?

I wouldn't say that...he was hounding me at one point to try one out on my Tboat. I think he will respond to anyone who want to experiment. Trick will be how to work out a control system so one man can launch/steer/retrieve the kite while the other steers the boat.

As I understand it, spinnakers were used on small catamarans in the 1960's.

GARY

Rick and I never saw any spinnakers on cats in the 1960's, but maybe people were experimenting in other parts of the country. Some friends of Rick tried a spinnaker on a Shark once up on Lake Erie. They said the boat took off like a scared rabbit and they almost got thrown off the back of the boat. Apparently, they were afraid to try it again.

I think they just put a normal large kite with airbladders on a heavy cat like a hobie 18. make a bridle and put a quick release in case of problems. 1 guy steers the other flies the kite. no mast.

on another note i believe that p cats have always had spinakers.

Shearwater started in the 50's

history

Home page

Thanks for the history. It sort of makes sense that the earliest catamarans would do what the monohulls were doing. But we just didn't see any of that on the East Coast of the U.S.

Of course, the P-Cat was designed with a spinnaker.
Never saw many in the eastern section of the USA.., mostly a west coast boat.
Rick

Kite have been a part of the Aussie cat scene as long as I can remember.. the two below had "Flatties" but otherwise "normal" spinacker setups..
The Yvonne Cat (6.1 meter) was designed with a kite.. I believe the Yvonne was designed by Charles Cunningham.. Was one of Cunningham senior's first cat designs.. It still a very active class..


Also the Kitty Cat was an offshoot of the New Zealand R Class Skiff. Thus it had a kite. I cant find a picture of a kitty sorry.. But from memory it was 12 foot long 6 foot wide one trap. Working sail area of 110 sq feet and a kite.

I cant recall if the Manta Cat had a kite.. It was either B class cat I believe or very similar size.. So may not have had a kite..

Stewart

You guys are getting stuck in a terminolgy problem. The thread initially referred to this kind of kite:

G'day,

Outleaders (www.kiteship.com) are different to board kites. They are launched from the boat not the beach and they do not have anywhere near the power zone. They are 20-50% more effective than a spinnaker due to flying higher in clearer, stronger air and not being affected by other sails or the boats motion.

Mostly though, they are safe. All the lines lead to the deck, so there is no heeling or nosediving. Biggest worry is getting airborne, more a problem on a beach cat than a large cat.

They have been used on big, slippery tris, a dismasted Newick was bought back from the Carribbean under a kitewhich was smaller than their assymetric. Went just as fast as the assy and main.

They don't need winches. We launched, flew, gybed and retrieved a 420 sqm/4,515 sq' Outleader on AAPT, a 20m/66' skiff in Sydney without once winding a winch. You do need snubbers, I have a bank of sawn off hardwood fenceposts mounted on a piece of 12x2 timber for my small kite. This can be strapped to a cross beam, a seat or a hull.

Conventional assy's have an aspect ratio of about 2:1. They are twice as high as they are wide, triangular and area is limited by the height of the mast/luff. 9m mast, max area is about 20 sq m. Outleaders are 1:4. Max hoist is 9m, but the max area is 162 sqm! And don't forget, they do not cause heeling or nose diving!

Outleaders are just getting going. As more and more hotshots use them, so will the techniques for flying them improve. Afterburner's first experience was not a good one. The Kiteship team will be sailing with them this summer to reverse this.

None have been used on beach cats yet, although I will be trying my 40 sqm/430 sq footer on my 7.5m/25' proa http://www.harryproa.com/Elementarry/SailingPhotos_4.htm in a couple of weeks. Will let you know how it goes.

Peter Lynn's little cat was an awesome beast. Peter told me where to sit, how to steer with the pedals and how to trim and steer a kite. I climbed on, sailed off the beach (4 fixed stainless steel rudders, turned on a dime), through the surf and back and forth, upwind and down, for an hour or so. No problems, enormous fun. This was the first time I had used a kite, or steered with my feet. He was developing a 6m/20 footer while I was there, and I think he is now selling these.

regards,

Rob

You should do some fact checking on your info Rob,




More people have gotten killed by going airborn under a kite than by flying an assymetric spinnaker. As a result power kiting and buggy kiting are banned on the Dutch beaches and waters now. They may only sail at certain reserved spots and after acquiring a license. For buggy's you'll now need an official (landyacht) pilot license and you must do an exame for that.




20-25 sq.mtr is enough to fly 75-90 kg human beings (paragliders) so 420 sq. mtr. is enough to fly 1500 kg. How much did that 20 mtr skiff weight ? So what do you mean exactly by "more a problem on a beach cat than a large cat."





Maybe on mono's but not on beach cats

F18 => (8.25)^2/21 = 3.24 aspect ratio
Tornado => (8.75)^2/24 = 3.19 aspect ratio
F18HT => 9^2/20 = 4.05 aspect ratio




- 70's and 80's experiments

http://www.cobrakite.com/jaclad.html


- 80's world record set by Tornado platform with a kite

"Kite boats are already allowed in speed sailing. A world record was set and held for 7 years by a kite powered Tornado, back in the early 1980's"

Source : http://www.sailinganarchy.com/innerview/2003/daveculp.htm




Issues with kites :

- Try sailing under bridges or power lines
- Try bouy racing with them
- Try to stay in the water with them (not get fully airborn)
- Try sailing upwind with them
- The sagging of the lines transmitting the force is a serious problem in upwind sailing or high speed sailing.

With respect to efficiency of kites. Yes they are theoretically and practically more powerful than assies, however they (used to) have rather bad lift to drag ratios and are (were ?) far less attractive upwind dan normal sails. This ratio and the sagging of lines also impeded very high speeds. Landspeed records and water records (boats and surfboards) are once again set using conventional masted sails.

Kites are quite interesting but they are far less new or promising than some make them out to be.

Wouter


(Yes I did a stint at kite flying and building as well, several years back I must admit)

if you don't think that these kite people are suicidal just watch this crap.

http://www.wetasschronicles.com/KiteSurfWipeout.wmv

That guy deserves a Darwin Award.

>G'day,

> You should do some fact checking on your info Rob,
>
My first line was "Outleaders (www.kiteship.com) are different to board kites, they are launched from the boat not the beach and they do not have anywhere near the power zone." I am referring to Outleaders, not board kites. They are very different in design, use and capabilities. Sorry if this was not clear.

>> Mostly though, they are safe. All the lines lead to the deck, so there is no heeling or nosediving. Biggest worry is getting airborne, more a problem on a beach cat than a large cat.

> More people have gotten killed by going airborn under a kite than by flying an assymetric spinnaker. As a result power kiting and buggy kiting are banned on the Dutch beaches and waters now. They may only sail at certain reserved spots and after acquiring a license. For buggy's you'll now need an official (landyacht) pilot license and you must do an exame for that.

No one has been killed by an Outleader, and no one is likely to be. Plenty of people have been injured by breaking spinnaker poles, and there have been untold injuries caused by capsizing and nosediving caused by assymetrics. Neither of these happens with an Outleader.

> 420 sqm kite on a 20m/66' skiff 20-25 sq.mtr is enough to fly 75-90 kg human beings (paragliders) so 420 sq. mtr. is enough to fly 1500 kg. How much did that 20 mtr skiff weight ? So what do you mean exactly by "more a problem on a beach cat than a large cat."

The 20 mtr skiff weighs 7 tonnes. Plus it carries 3 tonnes of water ballast when flying the assymetric (390 sqm) in over 15 knots apparent. With the kite, the water is not required. See http://www.kiteship.com/ for pictures of the kite and boat.

I meant that getting airborne is more likely to be a problem on a beach cat than a big cat. Fly a big enough Outleader, in strong enough winds, you will leave the water. Not a big deal, because as the water foils (centrebopards, rudders) come out, the boat will go downwind, apparent will drop and you will come back down. With the ability to attach (by tweaking) the strings anywhere on the boat, the attitude of the boat is controlled. Attach them to the leeward hull and the boat will heel to windward. It will not capsize, it will not nosedive. It will just go faster and faster.


>> Conventional assy's have an aspect ratio of about 2:1
> Maybe on mono's but not on beach cats
> F18 => (8.25)^2/21 = 3.24 aspect ratio
> Tornado => (8.75)^2/24 = 3.19 aspect ratio
> F18HT => 9^2/20 = 4.05 aspect ratio

Maybe my post should have read _maximum_ aspect ratio. Your comments just reinforce my point, which was that an Outleader can be far, far bigger than an assymetric, on any size boat.

> Issues with kites :
>
> - Try sailing under bridges or power lines
No problem. Either fly the kite low, pull it in to close to the boat, or collapse it and let it stream until you are past, then reset it. None of these is a big deal.

> - Try bouy racing with them
Can't wait! The Outleader's advantages on the race track are many.
Blanket the opposition from 50m upwind.
Fly out from any wind shadow
Rapid hoist and recover
No capsize
No nosedive
Fully powered up through gybes, actaully accelerating as the main goes over
Safe
Much faster, much deeper
Always fly in clear air, unless you are sailing in a river with 30m high banks.
Much less effort, sheet trim is mostly easing. The sweet spot is much wider than for an assy.
No pole and bag sticking out the front to slow you down upwind

> - Try to stay in the water with them (not get fully airborne)
By the time you are airborne, you will be going much faster than you have ever been before.
> - Try sailing upwind with them
This is not possible. They are downwind sails. However, Peter Lynn has recently made big steps forward with upwind kites.
> - The sagging of the lines transmitting the force is a serious problem in upwind sailing or high speed sailing.
Far less so than the drag of poles, stays and masts. Outleaders can be flown hard against the forestay. They develop most power and stability on long lines, but they are not necessary. The sag on 50m of 3mm spectra is not huge, control is very simple. Most people pick it up within the first few minutes.
>
> With respect to efficiency of kites. Yes they are theoretically and practically more powerful than assies, however they (used to) have rather bad lift to drag ratios and are (were ?) far less attractive upwind dan normal sails. This ratio and the sagging of lines also impeded very high speeds. Landspeed records and water records (boats and surfboards) are once again set using conventional masted sails.

Not many records are set with assys, either. Outleaders are to help relatively inefficient (all beach cats and all offshore cats) boats go downwind. They would not be used or required on boats which have high enough apparent wind to always sail close hauled under working sail, such as your record breakers. They are not meant to be used upwind.
>
> Kites are quite interesting but they are far less new or promising than some make them out to be.

This used to be said about spinnakers, then assymetrics. You are right, they are _quite_ interesting. They are not that much different to a conventional spinnaker, but are a reasonable step forward in speed and safety. I suggest you have a go with one, you may be pleasantly surprised. Where abouts are you based? I will try to arrange a demo if you (or anyone else) is interested.

Outleaders do have down sides. The strings are a pain to store without a collector reel and the 3 mm strings can be hard on the hands. They cannot be used in breezes under 8 knots, although as we perfect the launching and flying techniques, this will change. At this stage, no development has been done on seriously rapid deployment and retrieving. Again, this will change as they are used more often.

Regards,

Rob

Thanks for your post, Wouter. Rob has said most of it. OutLeader kites are different--they're nothing like kitesurfing kites--nor like foils, nor like Peter Lynn kites, etc, etc.

KiteShip has been designing, building and sailing kitesailing kites for 26 years. We've done the flexifoil thing, we've done the kitesurf kite thing. We've been to Weymouth half a dozen times; we've done 30+ under kites. We're kite buggiers, kitesurfers, kite sailors, kite designers. Yes thanks, we understand the SEVERE limitations and the dangers of putting large, powerful kites onto small sailboats.

This is why we invented the OutLeader. Kites aren't new--they've been used for centuries to pull sail boats. OutLeader spinnaker replacement kites are new. They AREN'T designed to replace your rig. They AREN'T designed to sail upwind--any more than any other spinnaker is designed to sail upwind.

What they are designed to do is to kick spinnakers' butts. On all boats, at all sizes. They aren't meant to compete against kitesurf kites on kitesurf boards. These devices are great--well designed and well built. If you wanna fly, put one on your catamaran. Lotsa guys are trying to do this--not us.

OutLeaders are designed for the Rest of Us. Those of us who like to sit down, right on the boat (or trapeze!). In this use, they've been built--and successfully sailed, and raced, in sizes an order of magnitude larger than any other kite--ever.

If you're looking for a kick-butt spinnaker; check them out. If you're looking to blame kitesurf kites for damages, injury and destruction; talk to those other guys. They ain't us. ;-)

(Check out AAPT, haulin' butt with the 420 meter OutLeader, attached!)

Cheers,

Dave Culp
OutLeader kites, by KiteShip

Heemstede, The Netherlands. Quite near to IJmuiden seaport with its large pleasure craft marina and the home port of the Dutch Volvo ocean boats.

I will certainly not pass on an invitation to experience an outleader. Always interested to learn more and judge new things.

Wouter

Hello Dave,

Yes I know of you. Very interesting background in kites you have.

I think you touched the cause of the misunderstanding. I judged the outleaders as the replacement of the classical rigs as indeed all other kite designs have tried to do.

I'll admit to misintepreting the outleader concept. But I'm catching up quite quickly. I have been over you website totally. Quite a interesting setup for the support lines you have. Truly the way to launch and retieve these things on a sailing boat. Indeed a big issue with most (other) kites.

I'm still very skeptical about the outleader boosting performance on beach catamarans though as we current sail downwind with the apparent wind angle coming from about 70-80 degrees forward. For any sail to work at these angles of attact it must be able to go upwind so to say and must have a good lift to drag ratio. Boosting performance on beech cats is not that simple anymore. But as a kite buggier you sure as hell know that.




Do you throw the assymetics as used on skiff and sport catamarans unders this target as well ?

Because I'm truly facinated by a outleader that can kick a Tornado sport's butt downwind.

With respect to me putting a power kite on my cat, no thank you, I've done my bit of harnassing the power of such devices. I think they are to difficult to control well on a beach catamaran in comparison to an assymetric. But then again I also switch to a conventional class 5 landyacht (with unstayed mast and mainsail)





Sure not looking to do that. Although we are trying to get the kite buggiers into our landyacht club structure because of their actions our sailing license is under scrutiny by the local county. To many cowboy's in buggy land, don't want to be doing pilot exams as landyachters had to do for 20 years now. But this is a totally different topic I agree with you there.


Dave one question I have for you. Can outleaders be used to sail faster downwind than the windspeed ?

Wouter

G'day,

Can't do anything this afternoon as I am in Perth, Western Australia ;-) but I will be in Europe from April this year racing Elementarry (my new proa). By then I should have figured out how to fly the Outleader on it and can give you 2 new experiences at the same time.

You are one of many people lined up for a sail, and I still don't know where I will be at any given time (except Texel 8-11 June). Please drop me a line in about mid April and we can organise something.

Regards,

Rob

Harry,




I guessed that much. I can wait though, years if I have to.



Do you know which races you are going to do ?

We probably need to give you a handicap rating. Did the Texel rating committee allow you in already ? My advice would be that if you don't have confirmation yet that you best seek it right now.





I won't pay for a test sail that I can tell you right now, but I can wait a long time so place me anywhere on the list were you want. Actually there is a good chance that I will be at Texel this year. I don't want to go but I think I have to this time. If I there I will look you and your boat up. The Elementary is easy to spot !

Regards,

Wouter

G'day,

I am in Europe specifically to provide people with experience on proas and with OIutleaders, so you won't have to wait long, and certainly won't have to pay, except by having me ask a bunch of questions about aerodynamics and engineering.

Still not sure of what races, as not all the Notices of Race are out yet, and a bunch of them overlap. Round the Isle of Wight, Cento Miglia, Bol d'Or and Round Gotland (Denmark) are high on the list, but Texel is the important one. At present we have been refused an entry, although this was for a far more radical proa. They have allowed us into the Dutch Open the week before for assessment purposes, to demonstrate a) that we can shunt as quickly as cats tack (no problem) and b) (could be wrong here) that we are not going to beat everyone by too big a margin. At present, this is certainly not a worry!!

Regards,

Rob

This is quite common and no offense taken. A lot of what we do is education.



Yes, especially in large sizes. Nobody else has successfully launched large kites; we do it everyday. The largest available commercial kite (except ours) is 25 sq meters. We just delivered one at 420 meters and are willing to build at 1000 meters. Not prototypes, but shipping products.



You are quite accurate and right to be skeptical. Under many conditions we cannot sail this high (principly in light winds; also with less than highly skilled fliers). Most boats, with less than half an hour's practice, can sail as high as 80-90 degrees. Under controlled conditions, we pulled a 2000kg truck across the California desert at speeds in excess of 35 mph, at apparent wind angles as small as 40 degrees, for protracted periods of time. This has not been matched by others as yet (we have some experience, you see. ;-)




We are very confident. Perhaps overly so, but every boat we have put a kite on has reported an increase in speed. We offer a money-back guarantee if you don't sail faster with our kites--nobody in the business offers this but us. We don't just believe; we know.

I doubt that a one-design such as Tornado is going to be allowed to fly a kite in-class. I hope I am proven wrong...

On the other hand, boats such as cats and skiffs are very much limited in the size and power spis they carry by their stabiliby--both transverse and longitudinally. Flying a kite in place of the spi vastly increases both types of stability. Flying an OutLeader on a hot cat or skiff will be a handful, but the first guys who succeed at it are going to make the record books.



I have done so, yes. Again on land, pulling the truck. We were making 35 mph, very deep, in 25 mph of wind. VMG about 29 mph. This was not an approximate course or speed. We were gathering instrument data and "did the math" later in the evening. VMG/TW = 1.18.

Can this be replicated on water? Yes, I believe it can. Apparent wind was forward of the beam, but not way forward. The relatively high L/D of the truck was not a deciding issue, I believe.

Of course you can wait until Rob denney is in the Netherlands, but we have a Dutch distributor who can demo for you immediately. Johan Mulder; johan@kiteship.com

Dave Culp
http://www.kiteship.com