NACRA to launch F17 in 2005!

My newsletter says that NACRA is coming out with a F17 and that Rules will be on the NACRA Class website later this week. Rules are to go into effect in 2005.

I cringe everytime someone announces a new class to divide us with. We now have formula classes at 14' 16' 17' 18' and 20'(still available 15' and 19') We have enough sailors to support maybe one of these classes. If they want to make a single handed formula boat why not build an F16 and feed into an existing class.

Actually, from what I have been told, it will still be based on the I-17R platform, but with provision for a larger kite for big guys. I also understand that PC will allow the Nacra F-18 rudder blades use as an option.

Single or 2 handed ?

There has been a 2 handed option in the UK for a while (but not taken up by anyone....)

Sparky, is that the NACRA or Performance web site ?

Linky would be fantastic when it come out..

My estimate of the proposed rules.

Rule 1 : You must use the NACRA I-17 platform

Rule 2 : you may use NACRA F18 rudderblades as an alternative to I-17 rudders (which are actually the old Nacra F18 rudders)

Rule 3 : Everything must be bought from Nacra

Rule 4 : Big guys may use a standard Nacra 21 sq. mtr. spi (also known as a nacra F18 spi) instead of the standard Nacra 17 sq. mtr. spi.

Rule 5 : everything else is prohibited.


Due to overwhelming demand this class will come into effect as soon as somewhere in 2005.

Same I-17 platform really just with a new catchy name.

Some formula class !

Wouter

>>There has been a 2 handed option in the UK for a while (but not taken up by anyone....)

Some 40 boats sold by this "option" since conception. Yeah these guys are near bankrupcy !

I wonder how many I-17's are in the UK ?

Wouter

UK 4 17's - we also have the shadow and FX1

Interesting about a bigger Kite.

I am already sailing with a 19 sq as it rates the same under SCHRS at 107 and my down wind angles are already deep when wiring, not sure I need more Kite !

A lighter boat would be nice !

Have to agree with Dan Ward, too many formula classes just divides us up into tiny sub-classes, might as well stay open class, HOWEVER :
If all Formula classes can strive to be equal or very close in performance, this could create ONE Formula class in the future. It`s optimistic, but possible. Only way to acchieve this is to exclude the manufacturers from decision-making positions in the classes, and ask the SAILORS what they want, create the Formula & then tell the manufacturers what sailors want. Will never happen because the manufacturers need to control the market in order to survive, EXAMPLE :
Hobie would not build a F16 boat that is equal in performance to F18, as it would erode the support base for their F18 product, unless there is sufficient market share for both. If Nacra made their F17 equal in performance to F18, same problem, so they will have to differentiate the two, probably by making F17 a single-handed only boat.
So where to now ? create Formula classes that each have appeal to their own target market, but make them equal or very close in performance to eachother, ie F16 ISAF rating = F18 ISAF rating, a good place to start. If F17 does the same, we have 3 formula classes that could compete on equal terms. This would unite sailors who choose different platforms for whatever reason. The one problem with this is that I can`t see F18 sailors welcoming the thought of being beaten by 16ft or 17ft boats, so they will want to stay separate. I can`t see F14 competing on equal rating to F16/17/18, or F20 either, so F14 & F20 will have to play on their own. But F14 could declare H16 non-spin & P16 non-spin as their "target class rating", so should strive for ISAF rating of 1.16, which I think is realistic, this would allow them to include H16 & P16 sailors in their foundation boats. This would create larger fleets racing on elapsed time, main objective of Formula Classes. One of the objectives of Formula classes should be to INCLUDE as many existing cat classes as possible, even if the classes are different lengths, as far as I know I-17 & FX-One are INCLUDED in F16 class as their performance should be very similar.
I would propose 3 formula classes, all as inclusive as possible :
-F14 : including older generation non-spin 16ft boats, ISAF rating 1.15-1.17
-F16/17/18 : Allow P18, TheMightyHobie18 (& Dart18?) with spi, must rate equal to F18 or less.
-F20 : More of an open class, allowing Tornado, SC20, N6.0 etc.

Question : Would F18 sailors in general welcome inclusion of F16 &17 boats at their events racing on equal terms ? Or would F16 & F18 only compete on equal terms at Open events ?
I reckon that`s like asking if Tornado sailors would welcome I-20`s at the Olympics .

Cheers
Steve

Simone,

>> 4 17's - we also have the shadow and FX1

Thanks for the info. I rest my case. Well with the exception of getting a few of these several tens of "double moded" boats of ours out to some events in the UK.

About the larger kite.

I completely agree with your statements.

Call me a whimp but I'll stay with 17.5 sq. mtr. That is more than enough for me.

> a lighter boat would be nice

That two, now increase the mainsail area as well add a selftacking jib plus some lightweight carbon parts for halve the price of the heavier alternatives, keep the width and you'll end up with an F16 that is 200 mm or 8 inches to long in the hulls.

I fully understand that I'm baised to the F16 but what is honestly the point of the F17 ? In all fairness it can only aspire to be just as fast and no more as the F16 is already pretyy much at the max of everything. Those 8 inches extra hull length won't do much, believe me.

Besides the F16 rules fully allow the I-17, FX-one and Shadow to race with us using the grandfather rule.

Afterall the F16 class was partly created to consolidate the singlehanded-doublehander segment of cat sailing as the large number of slightly different boat fragmented this segment into oblivion.

Our arms are open and we are happy to welcome you. Stronger still, we challenge to come and race with us and show us the potential of your (in general, not you personally Simon) sailing skills (1st and most important) and boat (secondairy and relatively minor in the big picture)

Wouter

How can we race arm-in-arm with F16 ? F16 rates 102, I17 / Shadow Rate 107, FX 1 rates 104 (all SCHRS)

No wonder you are happy for us to come and race with you !!!!!


Simon.

Simon,

It is the NACRA Class website (http://www.nacraclass.com/northamerica/NAINDEX.htm).

Looks to be a single-handed class.

thanks sparky, will ahve a look later

>>How can we race arm-in-arm with F16 ? F16 rates 102, I17 / Shadow Rate 107, FX 1 rates 104 (all SCHRS)


I-17R version is rated faster and it is all about sailor skill anyway. Mozzie F16's are 8 % slower on paper then us however these "Can do mentality" skipper have caused a stir or two by finishing ahead just the same.

Besides FX-one full = 104 , F16 = 102 ; 2 % speed difference ; do YOU think that this is significant ?

I can tell anybody right now that finishing within 2 % of the leader will either make you de leader or give you 2nd place; in a small percentage of race you can be 3rd but as good never 4th or more down the road. 2% in 45 min racing = only 50 second. Even the top 3 in large F18 races do often span out more than 50 seconds. In short If you are not in the top 3 while sailing a FX-one during a F16 race than you need to work on your skills before creating another class that you THINK you can win in.

>>>No wonder you are happy for us to come and race with you !!!!!

We are happy to race F18's as well even F20's.

Most of us know already that the nut behind the tiller is 85 % of the overall result. Most sailors make far to much out of 1-5 % theoretical speed difference.

Besides ;

F16 is not the class claiming :

-1- The speed and power are unprecendented for a boat its size
-2- ... allow the nacra F17 to be pushed to the limits long after the competition has backed off.
-3- With the nacra F17 ... proves to the competition that the .. designs are truelly the trend of tomorrow.


So I say bring them and race us F16's.

Wouter

Otherwise just call it the I-17 class as it is known already

Scooby,
So, you want a lighter I 17?

Take out you circular saw and cut about 1/3rd off your daggarboards

Everytime I lug mine to the boat, I wonder how many pounds I would save,....I suspect 6 pounds or so.( ..that is 5%)

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix

Wouter,

I guess I missed that grandfather clause.

Tell me about this. For example.

A FX-1, I-17 normal, I-17R/spin race in a F 16 event.

How are the above boats rated?

regards,

Bruce
St. Croix

Sparky,

Thanks for the link.

Nice pic too.

Is it my eyes, or are those bows starting to 'dip'

I thought the bows 'lifted' under spin?

I see the waves about 2-3 inches too, so the effect we see is not surface condition.


Bruce

Texel rating has measured more I-17 versions than SCHRS, Texel is typically 1 point higher than SCHRS.


Inter 17 Orginal (Aus version) : 115 (Doublehanded version with jib but no spi)

Inter 17 : 111 (also known as the EU version)
Inter 17 R : 103 (The US singlehanded version)

Inter 17 XL ; 108 (A rare version apparently only found in EU; I don't know much about it)
Inter F17 : 104 (calculated using specs as found in flyer)

Apparently the mainsail area went down from the I-17R to the F17 : 16.44 sq. mtr. to 15.80 sq.mtr including the mast.

F16 = 102 - 101 depending if you sail doublehanded or solo.

Seems to me that the I-17R could race very well with us.

Wouter

Wouter,

>I guess I missed that grandfather clause.
>Tell me about this. For example.
>A FX-1, I-17 normal, I-17R/spin race in a F 16 event.

Go to section 5 and 6 in the F16 rules

http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/F16HP_class_rules_section_C_class_events.html

here you can read up on the grandfather clause


It boils down to this :

All events are by default OPEN Formula 16 class events unless specified otherwise or when the event is a international event like a future Worlds. The last is logical.

This means that any grandfathered boat or one eligable to be grandfathered is welcomed under the conditions that :

-1- it is agreed that the first over the line wins and the other places are scored accordingly.
-2- participation is done in good taste and along the lines of the spirit of the F16 rules.

The spirit is of course "Don't Bitch just sail as good as you can and have a beer when back at the beach" We are one big sailing fraternity and if you win then we want to hear all about it; when you loose then don't blame the boat.

The rule is written in such a way that the given boats have equal ratings to the F18's or just a little slower; meaning we can all race first in wins with a margin of only a few %.

There is some talk about temporary grandfathering but that is only included to have a handle when somebody dhows up with the intend to F*ck-up the class. That is against the spirit of the rule and we will revoke his grandfather status.

There are way to exploit the grandfather rule so that boat that in inequal can still be entered. We needed to protect ourselfs for possible future unfair entries. We certainly intent to never use this provision.



>>How are the above boats rated?

See my other post in this thread.

Sadly you have the slowest I-17 of the bunch; luckily you have the conditions that it should not hold you back much. See you own experiences against the FX-one which is rated faster than your boat

regards,

Wouter

The way i see it
The I-17 sold mainly in Eu called the Nacra 17
In North America the I-17R is the main model sold now called the Nacra F17.
both are single-handed classes.
The Nacra F17 will have two spinnakers, a larger one for sailors over 210 lbs. with a estimated sail area of 12sf larger than the standard one. (nice idea)
no mention of any formula class that, I have read, but I might be missing something.
F16 Class, is it a single handed class or double handed class seems odd to try to be both?
one final note, HEY Wouter its Nacra not nacra, I see you cap all other manufactures.
just my .02
Ted Z

OK, I had missed the grandfather clause too, however, I think we need to measure all the Inter 17's in the world.....



Looks like the UK boats rate as F16's : http://www.nacra.co.uk/ click catamarans, Inter 17, shows length of 17 feet (5.25 mtr)

Looks Like US boats got a little longer somewhere : http://www.nacraclass.com/F17.htm

I believe my boat is 17 foot 5 long.......(LOA) but not sure what LWL is (17 foot 4 ?)

BTW Bruce, clocked my I17 at 15.7 Kts on my GPS with the kite up in not that much wind on Sunday (F3-4) All I need is a nice F6+ (and flat water) to go and play on !

Wouter,
1. It would be a great event to sail with F 16. One would learn alot and have fun.

2. I was always envious of the F 16 organization and helpfulness and events, and wondered what a dream it would to be compete.

3. Slowest boat?....we will see,....we have some Caribbean skills you know,...after all, we put de lime in de coconut...that was pretty innovative!

Thanks for the good news,......I suspect alot of I17s may be marking thier racing calanders for F 16 events now!


regards,

Bruce
St. Croix

Brobu,

>>1. It would be a great event to sail with F 16. One would learn alot and have fun.

Well don't forget that we can learn a hell of alot from you guys as well.

This is a win-win situation for all of us.


>>>2. I was always envious of the F 16 organization and helpfulness and events, and wondered what a dream it would to be compete.


Well, for that you may be in the wrong neck of the woods as F16 doesn't have any local branch there. Although there is some talk of starting one in Puerto Rico (closer but not close I estimate). Apart from that share on the forum make comments do whatever helps either yourself or us. You're welcome.


>>>3. Slowest boat?....we will see,....we have some Caribbean skills you know,...after all, we put de lime in de coconut...that was pretty innovative!


Well, we got you up to speed with regard to the FX-one of Harper and the texel difference between these is 4%; Just shows that a few % isn't really that much difference anyway. So Slowest boat is definately a very relative term ! So keep at it and maybe you can give the future PR F16's a lesson or two in fast sailing !


>>Thanks for the good news,......I suspect alot of I17s may be marking thier racing calanders for F 16 events now!

Well, in all honest this dependents on the area. Actually overhere the Dart 18, FX, I-17 and A-cats already started a annual national 1-up Cup 2 years ago. So in this case the F16's will be making use of their initiative. And thus we help eachother.

I'm hoping to get that I-17 sailor at my club to tag along. Looks like at my club we may have a few F16's in the not to distant future. Together with the 4-7 F18's that regular race in our club series we may wel end up with a very competitive race series. Last year we did 21 races and crews from neightbouring clubs sail down to ours to participate. The level is getting high. Occasionally we have Gerard Loos competing on his Tiger.

Regards,

Wouter

>The way i see it
>The I-17 sold mainly in Eu called the Nacra 17
>In North America the I-17R is the main model sold now called the Nacra F17.

Sounds about right.

>both are single-handed classes.

They are, although I've seen a few with jib kits being sailed as doublehanders at Texel for example.

>>The Nacra F17 will have two spinnakers, a larger one for sailors over 210 lbs. with a estimated sail area of 12sf larger than the standard one. (nice idea)

When the gate height and poles aren't modified as well than the difference between the two kites performance wise will most likely be neglectable.


>>F16 Class, is it a single handed class or double handed class seems odd to try to be both?

It may seem that way but it is definately both. Taipan 4.9 has been double moded for over 10 years now.

Both versions handle very well, but I always tell people to try it out themselfs.

There are some features that allow the F16's to do both modes well. Relatively small sails that are easily trimmed singlehandedly, small weight and a basic design that is more oriented to low drag than high power. Of course law drag sailing is less strenious on a solo sailor than power sailing.

Stuff like that.

>>one final note, HEY Wouter its Nacra not nacra, I see you cap all other manufactures.

Ohh, the "error" was not done intentionally. sorry

Nacra !

Wouter

We used the Texel measured Length Over All when we wrote this rule.

We specifically wrote them in such as way that it would include the FX-one and I-17 (in all versions)

5.30 mtr = 17' 4.5"

This leaves a little margin for the baots and for measurement.

If it was found out that the boats are just a little longer than we'll adjust this rule. The intention of this rule was clear ; include similar boats like I-17 and FX-one.

Texel measure the I-17R at 5.24 mtr. overall. 2 inches to spare.

Some speed you got there singlehandedly !

F6+ ?!! that is alot of wind when singlehanding the kite.

Wouter

Actually chaps! If we want to be that pedantic, it should be N.A.C.R.A. The name origanally stood for - North American Catamaran Racing Association, and the first off the beach cat of theirs was the 5.2 which was a scaled down version of a N.A.C.R.A. "D" class cat.

Wouter,



Yup, goes alright on flat water !



Yup, flat water makes it much easier ! Sail on a large lake (in UK terms) in the UK most of the time

BTW, I mentioned my new GPS, I have written a short review for a motoring Site I help to look after, There a a fair number of images, so Iwould not recomend non ADSL users have a look, but it's here if you are interested :

Mini Review of Garmin V, image intensive !

Personally been using the Garmin Geko 201 together with a friend who has the same one.

We clocked similar speeds (16.8 knots) to yours without a spi on a Taipan 4.9. Remarkable the speeds on upwind, downwind and reaching legs were very similar. That was something we didn't really expect. F5 to high F5 on a lake as well but some chop build over time. We were to chicken the hoist the spi that time. The course was also relatively short because mono's were on the start line with us. The C-mark was only meters from the shore and I actually had to jump off 2 times at the c-mark to prevent beaching the cat. Made for some nerve racking C-mark roundings. The lake was an old Sandpit so the banks are very steep.

See attachment.

Note this was certainly not one of our better rides together. Was our first time together as well. Later plots show more consistant sailing but the plots are less well developped to show on the net.

GPS's are cool that is for sure.

Wouter

What software are you guys using to get these plots, I want to do a similar thing with my etrex.

Wouldn't it be good if you could link up a wind instrument to a gps then you could get some really meaningful data out.

I am using 'mapsource' hat was bundled with my GPS

Works a treat.

Bruce,

The bows dip a little when you bear off. I never pitchpoled my NACRA 17R in a little more than 4 years of racing, and I don't know of anyone who has gone over any other way then sideways on the NACRA 17R. I HAVE gone over numerous times (4 times the first regatta!) and have been known to "push the envelope", "live on the edge", etc. I don't think using the spinnaker causes the bow to depress.

Sparky,

You are not trying hard enough !

I've only tipped over 3 times in about 4 years, but all with the Kite up!

First was a wild gybe in a fair bit of wind whe I just 'went for it' too much and the Kite was pulling before I was ready and the boat just blew over.

The other two were while wiring with the kite up and I just Pitch-poled big time (was fairly windy F5++) because I had too much plate down.

I really like the concept to allow more folks to sail the boat. Big guys usually pay a penalty downwind and by adding a small amount of sailarea to the spin is a fantastic idea.

I'm in 100%!

Bob

In two weeks, the CRAM F17 Fleet is adopting the new rules and the prototype large spinnaker has been promised. We expect to see it used at the Tawas regatta and the local dealer (Cathouse www.cathouse1.com) is offering a special deal on the prototype spinakers for the heavier skippers (over 210#).

Hey Sparky! Any chance the CRAM F17 group would allow the F16 1up boats or Hobie FX ones sail with them?

It is interesting that you mention sailing F16 single-handed boats head-to-head with the F17! We have done this in the Catfight for the last 4 years because all the single-handed boats start together. I don't think there would be any objection to having them sail and be scored in the same class and I think it would be good for the F16 Uni sailors to have a (larger) fleet to play in. It would be up to the skipper to decide if he wanted to sail with the F17s and register that way for scoring. I am pretty sure that the double-handed F-16 would be scored in the Low Portsmouth fleet. Regardless of whether the boat is the same speed or not, 4 hands against 2 hands is just not always fair, IMHO.

The alternative is to sail Portsmouth fleet and be scored on handicap. CRAM has a High Portsmouth and Low Portsmouth class which are scored separately. This last weekend, the Low Portsmouth class included NACRA 20 and A-Class and the Low Portsmouth included H-18, H-17 and H-16. One design fleets were F-18 and NACRA 17.

>><>I don't think there would be any objection to having them sail and be scored in the same class and I think it would be good for the F16 Uni sailors to have a (larger) fleet to play in.

That would be the case. The more souls the better the fun.

>>It would be up to the skipper to decide if he wanted to sail with the F17s and register that way for scoring. I am pretty sure that the double-handed F-16 would be scored in the Low Portsmouth fleet. Regardless of whether the boat is the same speed or not, 4 hands against 2 hands is just not always fair, IMHO.

4 hand to 2 hands, yes I agree.


Wouter

Will any F16 show up for cat fight? would be interesting to see all the single handed boats racing.

>>Will any F16 show up for cat fight? would be interesting to see all the single handed boats racing.

Well, I-17 and F16's are geographically a little apart. F16 being present in the southern parts of US and rising in California. And the I-17 being strong around the Ohio-Michigan area.

Don't know if many will travell up to cat fight. However there are a few T's at Rhode Island I beleive.

We'll just have to see. Eventually the two zones will met and then some combined racing will be fun I'm sure.

Wouter

NACRA F17 Tuning Guide is now posted on The Cathouse website (http://www.cathouse1.com/). "Click" on NACRA F17 and then at the bottom of that page, "click" on F17 Tuning.
This document has been recently updated and reflects the change in the Rules.

I havn't been able to locate the rules for this new F17 class. Is this class a "formula" class like the F14, F16 F18 and F20? That is, can other manufacturers or individuals build conforming F17 boats or is it limited to one manufacturer.

Dan
It's my understanding that F17 is the new name for the Nacra 17r. I haven't heard of any Formula 17 Class Assoc. at this time. As for the rules, I called the Mark at the Cat House. " rules have been sent to N17R class members for input" I think Sparky is a F17 Class member? Maybe he'll shed some light on the rules.

The NACRA F17 Rules have been derived from the NACRA Inter 20/Inter 18/Inter 17R Rules. The key modifications are that the larger spinnaker is allowed for skippers 210# and larger, that weight of skipper without adding weight have been set at 180# for the small spinnaker and 230# for the larger spinnaker, that weight adjustments are set at half of the difference between skipper weight and minimum (a chart is provided), that a new profile and length of daggerboard is permitted based on NACRA provided template (I'm still waiting on the template), and that the new NACRA F18 rudderblade is permitted.

Les,
Thanks for the info.

Exactly what does the 'new' F18 rudderblade look like?

Is it bigger?( I suspect)

If so, where?

And the reference to d-board length. Which way is it going?

regards,

ps. I have been in Tampa since Friday ( July 16). Hoping to see some local cats out. But, alas, it rained all day Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday and ended Tueday late afternoon. Today is a beautiful clear blue sky, but no wind.
geez!

Bruce
St. Croix
USVI

Bruce,

You can see a photo that shows your current rudder and the new F18 rudder side-by-side. The new rudder is larger.

Daggerboard length is going to be about 8" shorter with a leading edge profile similar to the F18.

Hey Les,
Do you have a link to these photos>

To clarify, this new design d-board and rudderblade,...they are designed for the Nacra F-18,....yes?

thanks for the update on the I-17 (ok,...the F 17).

..by the by,...the F stands for 'formula',...yes?

regards from Tampa ( sunny and HOT)

Bruce
St. Croix ( and going North Les, in about 2 weeks )
US Virgin Islands

http://www.nacraclass.com/northamerica/NAINDEX.htm

This is the link. Click on the 1-20-04 article, "New rudder info". I just had brain fade !

Attention all NACRA 17R owners!

INCA has just informed me that they are requesting all NACRA 17R owners that are thinking about attending Performance Race Week in Tybee Island, GA this October to send an e-mail to INCA [INCA@speednetllc.com] and provide the following information:

Name
Sail Number
Skipper Weight

They will respond to your e-mail address with information important for the Class.