Current think on dual-purpose boats—1 and 2 up.

Hello,

Realizing there has been discussion on this subject, and even some current conversation in the f16 forum—and also that there are many, many opinions, I am going to risk broaching the subject of a “dual purpose” boat once again. I’m looking for a used boat, for East Coast U.S.A. purchase, that is suitable for an aging sailor who is not lightweight (200+ pounds). The boat would be sailed mostly one-up but hull volume and sail area to sail two up on occasion is highly desirable. I was VERY excited about the Taipan 4.9 when it appeared on the market, figuring that that would be my next boat. Unfortunately, the sole US dealer is now (apparently) gone and only a dozen or so boats exist across the country. I used to sail a Hobie 16, and a Nacra 5.5 Uni, but currently have a Hobie 17, which I love to sail; however, that boat is hardly appropriate for a big guy and certainly not terribly responsive with two on board--especially with the lousy wind typical of the Chesapeake bay in the summer.

A new boat is not a good choice as I don’t want to spend 10k + for an occasional boat. I don’t really race anymore, but might go to some local or division (open) regattas if I had a boat with a chance of being somewhat competitive (don’t really care about winning anymore, but I do have an aversion to being a mark behind the fleet, as happens often sailing my h17 at 225 pounds).

Anyway, I’d like to hear from the catsailors out there on this. The bottom line is that I’m looking for a boat in the 16’-18’ range designed primarily for a single sailor, that has enough hull volume to be half-way decent for a big old guy, and will also be OK to sail on the rare occasion that my wife wants to go for a sail.

Thanks,
RickO

Hmm

Jim Boyer will be in the Annapolis /West River area in about a week or so, perhaps you should get in touch with him for direct answers to your questions. There is also a dealer who can get you a boat.

What you are looking for may be rare on the used market right now. Three boats would meet your needs, the Nacra, I17, the Hobie FX one and the Taipan 16. The latter two can be rigged with jibs alone, spin's alone or both. I know of sailors who sail all three of the boats on the Chesapeake Bay and each loves their choice. The old adage of you get what you pay for holds for cats as well.

Of the older boats... I would suggest that the Nacra 5.5 uni would be a better choice then the Hobie 17 since the 5.5 is also used for the 5.5 sloop and will carry 300 lbs pretty well. These boats have been succesfully modified with Hooters and now certainly with snuffable chutes when you want more horsepower down wind.

Good Luck
Take Care
Mark Schneider
CRAC

I sail the Taipan at 185 lbs and have been competive with the other Taipan sailor in my area who is 140 lbs; in fact, I'm a lot better off with it over 10-12knots! I'm depowering the main significanty at 14 knots. It's a great boat and the large jib keeps plenty of power when adding a second guy. I've also sailed it in 16+ knots 2-up with main and spinnaker (no jib)--wow, what a ride!!! The boat is fast and nimble, and it makes me look like a better sailor than I really am. I've heard that the T4.9 cat-rigged champ in Australia is over 200lbs. There's quite a bit of hull volume for its length--much more than a H17, for example.

Having said that, I've seen the Fx-1 and I17R--they are quite a bit bigger than the Taipan in terms of hull size and rig size. If the Taipan relies on finesse and light weight for performance, the Fx-1 and I17R (and N5.5U) rely more on brute force. Probably very similar in final performance, but different in their approaches.

The lack of a US dealer is curious but not really an obstacle. I just called (you could also email) Greg or Jim, the designers/makers, and ordered one. Very simple. The real obstacle is cost. The exchange rate with Aus. is improving, though.

No used Taipan 4.9s are available in the US right now, and if one did come on the market it wouldn't last long as demand is higher than supply. (Note that the cost of the I17R and Fx-1 is also in the same range as the Taipan, and used ones are similarly scarce.) But a really viable option is to purchase a second hand Taipan from Australia and have it shipped. The build quality is of a standard than even the earliest boats are still stiff and competitive. A used Taipan can be had for well under 10K.

The new Blade F16 will be made in FL but will likely cost > 12K as only new ones will be available. The Stealth F16 is another option, but the hulls have quite a bit less volume than the Taipan and that might be an issue for you (it's a very nice boat, though).

Do you still have a N5.5? Another option would be to pick up another 5.5 or even a 5.0 and add a spinnaker--they would also make sweet one/two-handers. This would be the least expensive option. I'm sure the H17 is a bit of a dog for you, especially downwind. Adding the spinnaker to cat sailing has been one of the most enjoyable things for me, and it adds that hull-flying spark to the downwind ride.

Maybe look into the new GCat 5M Mk3. Or an older G-Cat 5M Mk2 and add another headsail on a pole. Any way you swing it, a GCat will hold a tremendous amount of weight. I've had over a 1000lbs on my 5.7M and didn't even put the hull-stripes under and it still sailed decently well (later with only 1 other crew on board (~300lbs combined weight) we were nicely double-trapped).

You could probably even handle a GCat 5.7M. I normally single-hand mine up to 15knots and I'm only 150lbs. Granted, over 10knots I consider going uni.

>>Fx-1 and I17R--they are quite a bit bigger than the Taipan in terms of hull size and rig size

Are you sure about the FX-one rig size. Because the mast of the FX-one is 8.5 mtr tall just like the Taipan and the mainsail area is given by Texel to be 14.91 sq. mtr. while Taipan is 14.58 sq. mtr. a difference of only (converted to ft) 3.5 sq. ft. F16 allows about 14.85 sq. mtr. and is as good as the same size as the FX-one main. Spi's and jibs are the are the same size. F16 selftacking jib is only a bit smaller ; by some 13 %

I-17R rig is alot bigger though. But no jib as far as I know although there are some rumours about a jib kit being (made) available

Wouter

The I-17R does have the jib kit! I actually own the kit and use it from time to time in light wind distance racing 1up with the spinnaker. The I17R with the jib kit, 2 up would workout well especially when the wind is up. The lowest price on a used I17R that I have seen so far was about $7500 to $8000.

Tom Turlington
I17R #124

Jib kit is available for the I-17R and has been in the US for more than a year. Prices for used I-17Rs is still pretty high...more than $8K on average...from what I hear. All that being said, I think the I-17R (now called the NACRA F17) is exactly what you said you want. As a single handed boat, it does what you ask, and for those skippers weighing 210# or more, there is a larger spinnaker available and class legal. The boat is rated to safely carry 300 Kg. (660 lbs) in crew, but I expect it is significantly slower with that weight!

I sailed the H17 when I weighed 210 # and I know your pain! I moved to the NACRA 5.5 Uni and had a great time racing that boat from 1991 through 1999, and that boat can carry the weight and still be competitive. I think the average weight of the National Champion varied between 175# and 190#. The hulls will carry significantly more weight than that and the class minimum for the NACRA 5.5 SL is 275#. The spinnaker is what prompted me to move to the I-17R and I have sailed one for the last 5 seasons. As you have read from others in this thread, flying a hull downwind is what makes spinnaker boats so much more fun than other Uni rigged catamarans. The steering system and balance of the I-17R allows a single-handed skipper to tend to the spinnaker, opposite board, mast rotation, etc., etc., etc., with the boat continuing to track on course without having to hold the tiller. I don't let it go for long, but a very gradual turn to weather with main only and a similar turn to leeward with spinnaker up is what happens when I put down the tiller...very predictable and necessary, I think, for a single-handed spinnaker boat. There is a guy in our fleet who started on the Taipan 4.9 with spinnaker for the same reasons you state. He sold the Taipan and bought the I-17R and told me he likes the I-17R better. He is the only one I have heard of that has owned both boats. Hope this helps.

Les, do you happen to know how many I17R's there are in the US?

Mark.

Hi,
I owned three Nacra 5.5' ('89 Uni, 93 SL and a 98 SL) prior to buying the Hobie FX-1 , my current boat. If you are looking used, I think the 5.5 is a great choice for the money. The SL, sailed uni, is recognized as a 5.5 uni, so this may be your best choice. I also may know of one for sale in the NorthEast area.
If you could spend more, I really love the FX-1. I sail it with the jib and extra trapeze, mostly two up, and often solo. I think it is the perfect combo boat, which is EXACTLY why I purchased it. I also believe it is much faster than the rating adjustment as a two-up boat, and have sent Darline Hobock (PHRF multihull chairperson) results from a race where I took a Prindle 19 and a few other boats that owed me time, boat-for-boat, which may indicate a need for a rating adjustment. I've also asked Darline if she could provide a two-up rating for the boat (since I feel it sails better that way anyway), just like the Hobie 17 has a two-up "sport" rating.

A photo is attached. She's a pretty boat too.

Good luck, and feel free to contact me privately.

Steve
Hobie FX-1, Sail #211

Mark,

There are at least 30 NACRA I-17Rs in the US, but I don't have an exact count anymore.

RickO
You asked “I am going to risk broaching the subject of a “dual purpose” boat once again. I’m looking for a used boat, for East Coast U.S.A. purchase, that is suitable for an aging sailor who is not lightweight (200+ pounds). The boat would be sailed mostly one-up but hull volume and sail area to sail two up on occasion is highly desirable.”

You just described the sailing characteristics of the Supercat 17. It fits perfectly with what you asked for. The SC boats are extremely well made, and have a long life span. Supercat may not be the first name in catamaran that come to mind… they are not the most “popular” cat…but just remember that Ferrari is not as “popular" as a Chevy either…

Regards,
Bob

The Supercat 17 does sound somewhat like what RickO was looking for. As long as he isn't looking for a whole lot of performance. The Suppercat's rating is 73.3 while the NACRA 17 rates a 66.7

Tom

>>I was VERY excited about the Taipan 4.9 when it appeared on the market, figuring that that would be my next boat. Unfortunately, the sole US dealer is now (apparently) gone and only a dozen or so boats exist across the country.

That info is incorrect; two dozen is more like it and I think this is more than de FX-ones and less than the I-17 or A-cat but as Eric Poulsen wrote earlier. None of these boats are very abundent.

Wouter

>>There is a guy in our fleet who started on the Taipan 4.9 with spinnaker for the same reasons you state. He sold the Taipan and bought the I-17R and told me he likes the I-17R better. He is the only one I have heard of that has owned both boats. Hope this helps.


I thought J. switched because he wanted to get into OD fleet racing instead of PN racing and the I-17R definately has a better class thing going on in the great lakes area. A good reason to switch, I think.

However I would be surprised if he sold the Taipan because he disliked it as a design.

Wouter

Thomm,
The 2004 US Sailing PN for the ARC17 is 70.0. This is the PN demonstrated by the ARC17 at the Tradewinds this past Jan. The spin was not used during the last four heats which were the only heats out of six that should be used in the PN calculations. During the first two heats there was much confusion on the race course and boats in the Open class sailed different courses and different numbers of laps due to not understanding the race instructions. If you correct this demonstrated 70 PN for the spinnaker, you get 67.3. That's pretty good for a boardless boat. The PN for this boat will settle down with more race data. This is one data point; the first data point for this new boat.
Good sailing,
Bill

Thanks all for you replies. This is very helpful. Lots of good info to sift through and weigh against what is available and logical. Another problem faced by Virginia Beach/Norfolk/Portsmouth sailors is lack of water access--the place is terrible. A light weight, simple to rig boat is a distinct advantage.

Mark--while I should know who Jim Boyer is, and the name is familiar, I can't quite remember. I like the idea of having a flexible rig in terms of jib/no jib Plus Spinnaker. After 20 years of sailing a 16 and the 17, simple is good! I'd probably want to sail primarily with main only, altho popping a spin sure is fun! ( Don't have that much experience with them but enough that I know how enjoyable they are.) I do sail by myself most of the time--and usually fairly conservatively (OK, OK, trapping off my 17 wing in 20 knots and big waves is really fun) and would probably not sail spinaker in that situation. Would be a good excuse to go to some regattas tho.

The 5.5 is a nice boat--had one (5.5 uni) for a little while but only sailed it a couple times before it umm, went away. Big boat and big stick. I know its an older design, and plenty are around. That would make it a good choice expense-wise, but--a big question is the differences between that boat and the newer designs (T4.9, I17, FX1). What are the features of the newer boats that make considering the higher price a worthy effort? I'm not trying to be flip, but is it worth it for a guy who no longer wants to invest the emotion and time needed for competitive racing? I'm not looking for the cheapest boat--just the best one. I don't anticipate buying another one.

Eric, your comments about the Taipan 4.9 being light and nimble, plus being able to handle one or two sailors is what attracted me to that boat to start with. I had not considered trying to have a used Taipan shipped from Australia--very good thought. The downside is, that even tho I don't really care so much about racing so much, having a boat with some presence on the East Coast makes some sense. However, I don't know how many I17's for Fx-1's there are either.

In terms of a GCat, I've known a few of those boats over the years, but didn't realize they were on the comeback (again). Sounds like an interesting boat, but the likely route for me would be to retrofit a used boat--but haven't seen any of those for sail. I did read the thread about them.

Les, you caught my eye when you said wrt the I17 "for those skippers weighing 210# or more, there is a larger spinnaker available and class legal. Is that something that is available with any other boat. My main sailing is and will be single handed. The only time I'll have someone else on board is just fun sailing, or perhaps some of the short distance races held on the lower chesapeake (e.g., Low Rent--has a new name now but can't remember it). The fact that the boat will hold course fairly well with no hand on the tiller is good for solo sailing ( I know, I know, any well-balanced/rigged boat will do that!).

Steve--thanks for you input on the Hobie FX-1. Isn't that a pretty new boat? I've never seen one for sale (admittedly, I usually only look at the local adds, and those in catsailor). You photo didn't attach but the Hobie site has some.

Rick Overbaugh

Rick,

Jim Boyer and Greg Goodall designed and manufacture the Taipan 4.9/F16, Capricorn F18, Auscat (A-cat), and Aussie Flyer (A-cat). [See ]http://www.ahpc.com.au/] Jim is about to tour the US and potentially could show you or take you for a sail on his design.

It seems that the various boats you're looking at are found in pockets hear and there. There's a cluster of T4.9s in Florida, a few in VA area (more in the East than anywhere else). There's a cluster of I17Rs in the midwest and (I think) the Gulf coast. There are no clusters of Fx-1s yet, but I've seen a couple here in CA so far. So if you want to be in an already present group, see what's around in your area.

Of course the best way to decide what boat to get is to go out and sail each of them. Then you'll know if the new ones have much to offer over the 5.5, and you'll know which suit your needs best. Also, you can't neglect looks--a boat's gotta satisfy your aesthetic sensibilities too. The F16s (Taipan, Stealth), Fx-1, and I17R are all nifty boats; all are relatively scarce at this point in the US (compared to Hobie 17,eg); all will be tough to find used. (No one wants to part with them.) But you should definitely be able to sail any of them before deciding which you like best.

Good luck and enjoy the process.

Howdy Rick,

Thought about this quite a bit and you might want to think about a used Marstrom A-cat. It won't be as good as some double handed but from what I have been given to understand it is the best of the As for big-boys and will really fit your bill perfectly for the single handed side of your question. And for when you want to double hand it should be adequate given Karen's size.

It will also satisify the requirement of perhaps being the last boat you ever have to buy. And I can also tell you from experience that light boats are great for all of the rest of the logistics aspects.

http://www.marstrom.com/administration/Boats/acat/index.asp

http://user.tninet.se/~zdt420t/acatstuf.htm

http://www.boatshow.com/A-Cat-Marstrom.html

Wouter,

I only said that he said he prefers the I-17R, not that he disliked the T4.9. I think his comments related to handling the boat single handed with spinnaker and he found the I-17R to be better for getting the spinnaker up and down and still keeping the boat under control. The NACRA was designed around single handed spinnaker sailing and it does that better than anything else I have seen. Other designs may do what they were designed for very well also (T4.9 was designed as a sloop and later sailed as single handed boat, then a spinnaker was added).

I only know of two single handed boats that started out as spinnaker boats, the NACRA I-17R and the Hobie FX-one. (I know that Marstom makes the M-18, but when I asked about it, the sales pitch was about it being an A-Boat that could easily be converted back and forth from A-Boat to M-18, the difference being beams and spinnaker rig.) Based on input from two people who have sailed both the I-17R and the FX-one, I don't think the FX-1 is as well thought out in the spinnaker up and down aspect, as both said that they had to clamp the tiller with their leg while putting up and taking down the spinnaker or the boat would turn significantly.

Rick,

I think NACRA took a look at what F-18 has done to allow closer racing between crews of different weight, allowing a larger spinnaker and jib for the heavier teams. The first of the larger spinnakers for the F17 is expected to be sailed competitively this weekend and feedback to the sailmaker will be provided. I have not heard of any other classes that allow the different size spinnakers for the big boys. BTW, there is a jib kit for the NACRA, but was not designed for or allowed in class racing. It was provided for people like you who want to take their wife/kids for pleasure sailing some of the time.

Bill,

A 67.3 rating for a boardless boat doesn't sound fair to the guy driving. If he were to race that boat say in a buoy race against the NACRA F17 (rated at 66.7), he would lose so much just getting to the upwind mark I don't know if he could ever make it up.

Tom

Actually, the T4.9 was initially designed and sailed as a sloop with spinnaker and has been sailed cat-rigged since its beginnings as well.

>>>I only know of two single handed boats that started out as spinnaker boats, the NACRA I-17R and the Hobie FX-one.


Actually the I-17 was in the beginning a spi-less sloop rig design from Australia so even the I-17 didn't start out as a spi boat. later it was converted to the I-17R which lead to the nacra F17 etc. It has taken to it very well, that is true.

But agree with your other comments.

Wouter

Tom,
The ARC/SC17 is a totally different underwater hull design than your typical boardless beach cat. It is more like a round bottom board boat with half a daggerboard on the bow and 2/3rds of a daggerboard on the transom which also steers the boat. The 17 sails much more like a daggerboard boat than a boardless boat. The oversize rudder and round bottom hull aft end lets the boat tack quickly. You do not backwind the jib on this boat to make it tack. You don't have time to. The ARC/SC17 is not your typical boardless beach cat.
The old SC17 used to sail slightly faster than the N5.2 on a boat to boat basis and the N5.2 was considered a hot 17ft centerboard boat.
Bill

Wouter,

The Australian NACRA 17 was designed as a sloop. The Inter 17 development team in the U. S. started with those hulls, lengthened them 5" to reduce the rocker, and then developed the rig as a spinnaker rigged single-hander. The hulls and rig for the two boats are different. The I-17R was a result of the Michigan fleet saying to the dealer that we would buy the boats if it had carbon mast and sail area comparable to the NACRA 5.5 Uni. Ultimately, the development team decided that 170 Sq. Ft. mainsail was too large and reduced it to 165 Sq. Ft. The Michigan fleet specified carbon mast, high-tech sail cloth and spinnaker. The factory left the spinnaker as an option for the I-17 and I-17R, but I think the new F17 comes with spinnaker standard.

Hi Jamie--How the heck are you?

I hadn't really thought about the A-cat at all, my impression has always been that they are expensive and FRAGILE!! Not the case? The light weight part sure would be nice for raunching the thing around on the beach. ( Kidding of course, but it would be nice for launching and loading on the trailer)

Wouter in the late seventy's early eighty's we released two comercial cats, that were standard with spinnaker and sailed one up. They were the Alpha Omega 4.4 - cat rigged with (opotinal) spinnaker, raced one up (or two) with or without the spinnaker, and the 5metre Alpha Omega raced one up, cat rigged with or without spinnaker, and sloop rigged with or without spinnaker sailed two up.
The problem was back then NO ONE would accept a cat with spinnaker -"spinnakers are only for mono's" and "spinnakers don't work on cats" were the common response to spinnakers on cats.
We also had the Alpha Omega 5.5 m Alpha which was sloop with spinnaker and was usually raced with it's spinnaker, although the spinnaker was derided by most other classes of cats as well as mono's (even though it used to absolutely "kick butt".
Goodall and Boyer had a similar experience when they first put their Taipan on the water (with spinnaker). The spinnaker was dropped real quick, not because of it's performance, but more so by the resistance of the market place.
Darryl

Slightly off topic, but the Shearwater has had a Kite for many years :

http://www.shearwater-asc.org.uk/

Just a couple of piccies

Hello Rick,
There is one very important difference in hull design between a one person and a two person boat. The hull height and displacement have to be designed for the weight of two people if the boat is going to work well as a two person boat. The A class cat is highly tailored as a one person boat. With one person on the wire and flying a hull, the cross beams intersect the leeward hull just a few inches above the inboard sailing waterline. If you put two persons on this boat and put all the weight of the boat and sailors on one hull, the front beam will be dragging in the waves of the chop that go with this wind strength and point of sailing. So you can't just put two persons on a boat designed for one person and have a good sailing boat. With two on the wire the sail thrust is approximately doubled; lookout for pitchpole, lookout for broken daggerboards, lookout for broken mast, need more mainsheet mechanical advantage, lookout blown out sail! You can take a two person boat design and sail it single handed but a one person design sailed by two persons, that doesn't work very well.
Bill

Darryl,
You guys down under have always been 20 years ahead of the rest of us when it comes to spinnakers. The 18s are just as fast as beach cats so the spinnaker design technology developed on them is directly appilicable to beach cats. I put a spinnaker on my first RC27 in 1983. The sail would fill and look pretty but the speedo and compass said nothing happened. I tried a few different sailmakers over the next ten years but no success. Finally in the 1990s a much flatter and narrower spinnaker began to work and today the spinnaker is a hot ticket. The Tornado going with the spinnaker has really educated the sailmakers about spinnakers for beach cats in the US.
Bill

Good Advice Eric. Most of the boats in this area are Hobie 16s, with a reasonable number of 17s and Miracles. I don't want to sail any of those boats for the previously stated reasons. There used to be a number of local 18 squares but they are gone now. With the changes from HobieCat company WRT regattas being hobie only, my regatta choices are pretty much limited to local fleet events, plus CRAC (I've never sailed in any crac events except Down the Bay a couple times, and the Chesapeake 100 with Jamie Diamond, but they seemed to have a nice variety of boats and seemed to be a good bunch of folks--but that was several years ago).

My rambling point is that whatever I end up with is going to be an oddball so perhaps a "presence" is not really a consideration after all!

Rick

TRENDSETTER.

Hey Rick, I'm good. Been a long time.

I would say a good A, especially a Marstrom, is the opposite of fragile. I'm sailing the odd-ball Bimare 2-up (it's designed for that). The main thing I notice with it is that the puddles of resin are missing from the hull. It has a pretty normally sturdy fiberglass construction, just done nicely instead of being glommed in with excess resin. I've seen Marstrom Tornadoes and the Marstrom M-20 and they are some of the sturdiest, best built, most nicely laid-up boats I have ever seen. Yeah they don't have some of the thickness of resin and gelcoat on the bottom that the Hobie 16 has, but they are certainly "sturdy". I think you'll find the boat nice enough and light enough that you won't want to drag it around the beach.

Now Bill is mostly right about the single hander being designed differently than a double hander. I'm assuming that you won't add a second trap, and that if Karen's going out it will be for a fun sail, not for some hairy white-knuckle ride in big surf and big winds where you're pushing a hull under every other wave.

If you sail it the way that it sounds like you plan to then I think the Marstrom A might be that boat to last you the rest of your life.

2 other minor things to look at.

1, look at the age of the guys sailing A class catamarans. You'd be a youngster by comparison to many. Yet the boats go fast as hell around a triangle.

2, talk to Mike and Carol Fahle. To hear Mike talk about it the used A he bought has been pretty close to a religious experience for him. And I know he has taken Carol out on the boat with him also, so he has tried some of what you are talking about. Now he's not as big as you but Carol is bigger than Karen and his A is a Boyer not a Marstrom. Everything I have read leads me to believe the Marstrom is the right A for big boys.

Hello Rick

Here is a little background about cat sailing on the bay.
We have several active catamaran fleets. Some may be called hobie fleet xx EG Hobie fleet 32 or 54 or 196 however they all operate as a catamaran club and proudly display their various histories. They are joined by CRAC and WRCRA as well as the Solomons cat sailing club. We work together to support the sport of cat racing and each does their part. You will be welcome to race whatever boat strikes your fancy now and into the future. Feel free to contact any of the above but I would not make much about the hobie stuff.

The A boat fleet is growing on the bay and Chris Ford, Tony Arends or Tracy Oliver (Va Beach) can fill you in. They had 10 boats at Cambridge last weekend. The race all of the other single handers and get scored as a fleet. We also have several Taipan -F16's on the bay which are also good single handers. Dan Berger has a couple of F14's aka H14's with headsails in Va Beach and they have a great H17 fleet in New Jersey.

We have a huge regatta schedule in the region (perhaps it too much) at which any boat that you bring will be welcome.

With respect to CRAC....we haven't changed much... just fatter!

With respect to odd ball boats...There really isn't any such thing... The days of 20 boat one design fleets are long gone... run what you brung and go racing.

Good luck
Mark

Rick, You did not mention if your "two up" sailing would include racing. My experience is that this makes a significant difference in choosing a boat. Jamie is giving you good advice to consider an A-cat if you want a fast boat to "retire" with as long as you will race it single-handed only. My wife and I have sailed our A cat together and as long as we do not push it then we do not need to be concerned about the issues that Bill Roberts described earlier. In fact, our Boyer Mark IV is so light and narrow hulled that it is easily the smoothest sailing boat we have ever experienced in the Lake Erie chop. So far we have hiked and trapezed together while flying a hull but I would be unwilling to put a second trap on the boat even with just our 300# combined sailing weight. It is a joy to rig and move due to its light weight but that also makes it a nuisance because I have to take the mast down in any wind over about twelve mph as it may blow the boat over and/or the 6" x 30' carbon mast pumps (rythmic shaking) which is undesired to unnerving. Since I normally keep my boats rigged on the deck at the water's edge for quick launching, this makes the "A" more high maintenance and therefore used less often (we also have a Hobie Wave and a Mystere 4.3 ready to go that are fine with the rigs up in any weather that we have had so far). If we race together, which we did once, then the wind is light to medium so that we do not stress anything and that means we cannot sail to the boat's PN numbers, especially off the wind against the spinnaker equipped boats like the Taipan or I-17. So if you race by yourself, no worries. And rec sailing will most likely be as Jamie suggested anyway - in wind conditions that will not overload the boat's design.

So I understand what you are looking for, especially if you want a fast boat that is equally good at racing fast single-handed or double-handed and really especially if you are looking for a boat under $10K. There are few good choices. Please share with us what you end up with and how you like it.

Mike Fahle

I've really enjoyed everyone's comments and suggestions. Kind of gets my windward hull out of the water a bit!

You have all given me lots to think about and now I need to investigate some boats. However, one of the primary thoughts that keeps going through this old and feeble head is that I wonder if it might be wise to avoid the newest style boats such as the Taipan, Nacra 17 and Hobie FX one simply because (rightly or wrongly) my impression is that these are boutique boats that will be replaced by something "better" in a few years. This may be the wrong way to think, but in my 20 years of sailing I've seen lots of excitement about new boats and then in a few years they are dwindling, no longer in favor, or practically gone. I can remember the fuss about the Mysteres (geez I liked sailing those--the center boards are sooo nice) but it seems like some boats "go away" fairly quickly. And yeah, I understand that the sport evolves and the companies need to bring new boats to the market regularly. However, my goals are mostly to sail a fun, fast boat with some lasting power (both structurally and parts-wise).

The A-cat seems like a good possibility. They have been around for a good long time, and probably will stay around. Also, for some reason, I'm attracted to the idea of the new supercat 17, possibly because it is built on hulls that have been around a long time and probably will hold up for a while too (albeit a lot heavier than the A). Both are kind of the oddball boat that seem to fit the bill. And, as Mark Schneider said: "With respect to odd ball boats...There really isn't any such thing... The days of 20 boat one design fleets are long gone... run what you brung and go racing."

That all said, I still want to sail some of the other boats--especially the three I called "boutique boats" at the start of this ramble.

Time to do some investigation!

Rick

Jamie mentioned that "Marstrom is the right A for big boys." Why is that? I see that there are a number of different hull designs so my guess is that the Marstrom has the most hull volume? There is a boyer for sale locally and a number on the A-cat site but no Marstroms? One of the local guys told me that the Marstroms are hard to find.

Supposedly, the Marstrom is the most expensive A-Class.
It is also supposed to be the strongest.
Marstrom uses the same hulls to make his M-18 which has a spinnaker, taller mast, bigger main, and is 8.5'wide.

If the owners are happy with the Marstrom, naturally they rarely show up in the used market.

Yes, I wish I had one.

I want to add one different perspective. Let me first say that I have owned a H14(twice) TheMightyHobie18 Nacra 5.2 and Nacra 5.8(twice). I currently have my second H14 and 5.8. I use the H14 single handed on 12+knot days, and my 5.8 on 5-15knot days. The 5.8 is responsive, rudders kick up reliably (sandbars), built like a tank, goes on and off the trailer at Willoughby boat ramp in Norfolk easily, and is comfortable with myself (185lb) or with family. Only problem I have is mast is a bit heavy to put up single handed. Hobie 14 is easy to muscle around in high winds and great for poking around in creeks and small rivers on lazy days. I can have H14 launched and sails up in 15 min. after getting to boat ramp.

Not exactly high tech. , but works for me. It would be nice to see a cat fleet like wrcra in the tidewater area.

Hey Rick,

We're at Bay Week. Wish you were here. We're back on small boats, as is most of the fleet. Not Hobie 16s this time, but Mystere 4.3s and Waves with Hooters. The biggest fastest cat here is the Hobie 18 being sailed by Betty and Dick Bliss.

We should try to organize a Bay Week "Reunion Regatta" for next year. Get some of you folks from the past to come back.

Hi Rick, I'm new to this forum but i've read your question and i'd like to reccomend the Stealth 16. I bought one 3yrs ago, i'm about your build ( i think !) and i've had great FUN its beauty is that is easily sailable either solo (with spinnaker ! ) or two up if a friend arrives. The thing that really pleases me though is after a hard days sailing/racing, i'm not very fit, its a pleasure to wheel up the beach/slip. It weighs 109kgs ready to sail has a performance to match BUT does a good job at keeping you out of trouble if things get a bit "out of hand" Get in touch with Jon Pierce at www.stealthmarine.com he's a good guy and his prices are really good at present - new boats are about $2-3000 cheaper than a Spitfire !
Regards Mike Young

You will find the link to John is http://www.stealthmarine.co.uk

the .com makes funny boats without sails......

Jamie,

Bonnie and I are depressed we couldn't make it this year to Bay Week too. If being out of vacation weren't enough (burned up an extra week this year doing the Tybee500), I have been without a catamaran until yesterday. We'll probably be back up next year - that's our favorite regatta!

Jake - show us a pic of your new F-18!

Ken

Hey Jamie. Boy, do I wish we were there. It has been 10 YEARS since our last Bay Week---maybe next year we could make the trip. Its interesting that everyone is back on the small boats--kinda cool.

I've really gotten away from sailing. I joined the fleet here in Virginia Beach when we moved here, but never felt particularly welcome for the most part and beach access is terrible (really only two places to launch, one of which is high effort but nice beach, the other is a filthy city launch with about 150 ft of beach [usually clogged with jet skis]). Dan Berger is now commodore and has convinced me it might be worth the time to give another try. So my interest has been piqued--hence a renewed interest in a more appropriate boat. Sold the 16 "Junkyard Cat" two years ago and kept the 17. I really like sailing the 17 in Willoughby bay and out into the chesapeake--especially when its honking, but there is no point in trying to race (there are several 17's around but I'm waaay too big to compete against the 165#ers!). Plus, 98% of any sailing I do is and will be solo. Ah well, say hello to the gang.

Rick

It's coming! I'm going to rig her up fully tonight and take some shots (if it's not raining). It is a beautiful 'thang!

Seriously - the quality of this boat, foils, finish, and sails is more than I could have imagined. Having Formula classes where the manufacturer's compete directly on the water is going to be great for this sport.