Righting a Hobie Tiger (solo if possible)

Any recomendations for righting a Hobie Tiger (solo if possible) would be appreciated. I am a newbie to cat sailing so the more descriptive the better ie. 1. swim to the boat

I am thinking of installing shroud extenders. Is there a danger of the mast coming off with the shroud extended? Is this the best system? How should the righting line be installed. What are the steps to right the boat.

Tks

Hello Ace,
The shroud extension system is just like any other "system". Either get all of it or don't get any of it. This includes a captive mast step base. This base also is a safety feature. It keeps the bottom of the mast on the ball while raising and lowering the mast. The mast can't slip off the ball or out of the pivot and fly up and hit your crew person in the face in the midst of raising or lowering the mast. I have seen this happen on some systems.
Bill

Bill,
We realize how upset you get when anyone wants to put a shroud extender on anything but a Supercat,
but you could at least do two minutes of research before you open your mouth.

The Hobie Wave, Dragoon, Getaway, 17, 20, Tiger, FX/One, and Fox all have locking mast steps.
Hobie Cat has been selling two types of shroud extenders for many years.

There is a standard procedure for righting any "beach cat" that works in all but the most extreme conditions (conditions when no one should really be out in), and it is like this
When you know that the cat is about to hit the water, forget about sheeting lines etc (assuming you haven't ditched with the kite up then it is more awkward), and direct yourself to getting up on the bottom hull ASAP, stand up holding on to the dolphin striker strap with one hand and lean out away from the cat. This will stop the cat from "turtleing" to a full 180 degrees. by leaning out in this way the cat will stay at 90 degrees for as long as you "hang out". Next reach up with your free hand and pull down the righting rope from the underside of the trampoline (if there isn't a righting rope you desereve to "lose" the cat). Wrap one loop of the righting rope around your trapeze harness hook and clamp both ends of the rope at the hook with one hand, this will stop the rope from "running" and you can then let go of the striker strap and lean out supported by your harness. now take both the ropes as they come from your harness hook and "play" the rope out (still around the hook), untill you can reach back and just touch the water with one hand, making sure that your legs are straight (not bent at the knees) and your upper body and your legs are in a straight line, this will mean that your body is at approx' 45 degrees to the water (this is the maximum leaverage that you can exert with your body weight for righting). Now, maintaining that angle to the water and by letting out appropriate amounts of rope, walk as far towards the bow as you can.
What now happens is that as your weight depresses the bow deeper into the water, the transom is lifted accordingly. This creates more resistance to sidesways movement of the cat at the bow and less at the stern. The result being that the cat will quite quickly come up head to wind. When it is head to wind, the wind travelling over the mast and sail(s) will lift the mast and the cat will come to rest, upright and head to wind with you in front of the front trampoline beam and in the middle of the hulls. If it is not coming up you are not head to wind BUt as soon as you are head to wind, the mast will "sail" up. Remember "if there is enough wind to ditch you, there is enough wind to right you". To get back onto the cat take hold of the front beam with both hands close together and raise your elbows over the beam and onto the tramp. Then swing one leg sidesways onto the deck of one hull just in front of the beam, use your leg to raise your weight so that your body is horizontal and vertually level with the tramp then roll onto the tramp backwards. The cat should be quite stable and manageable as it is "in irons" as it is still head to wind.
By useing this method, one person can right most beach cats single handed with the minimum of effort.
The worst thing a person can do when righting a cat is to hang on the righting rope by their hands and "PULL"! They cannot exert any more leverage than their own weight BUT by "pulling" they are exerting a very exhausting "Isometric" exercise, and can completely exhaust themselves in a matter of minutes, that is why it is always much better to support yourself by your harness and relax.
Darryl

Hi Sam,
You are right,I have only seen the newer Hobie cat products from a distance. I am flattered when one of the beach cat companies copies one of my ideas and puts it into production. It does rub me the wrong way a little when a boat company copies one of my ideas and calls it theirs and claims it is an advancement in the state of the art and it was on a production SC or ARC product 10, 20, 30 years ago. When it comes to safety items, I wish they would all copy all of them.
Many of the safety appointments I designed into the original SC product line came from problems sailors were having with the H14s and 16s back in the 1960s and 70s.
Example: The first Hobies had no connection between the mast base and mast step to aid in raising and lowering the mast. The technique used at that time was for the crew to hold down on the base of the mast at the step while the other sailor, usually larger and stronger, raised the mast while standing at the back of the trampoline and them walking it up to a position where the forestay could be connected. This worked fine at the local boat ramp until one day when a sailor was taking his girl friend sailing and she was holding bottom of the mast at the step, the lifter raised the mast with a jerk from his waist to his shoulder. This also caused a sudden jerk at the base of the mast and the mast slipped between her hands. The mast hit her in the face knocking out some teeth, splitting her upper lip and breaking her nose. I rushed her to the emergency room at the local hospital. That experience, Sam, is the scar tissue I had at the time, 1976, I designed the captive mast step and ball for the SC product line. Several other beachcat companies have now copied the design and I am glad they have.
Bill

Captive mast bases have been around on dingy's since at least the 1950's and on cats since the early 1960's here in Australia. They have never been the exception but the common rule, so I am a little bemused when anyone (that is still alive today) lays claim to "having invented" the idea, "reinvented" perhaps, but the idea was not "original" by any stretch of the imagination.

Darryl,
I'm sorry I never made it down to Australia to see all of the sailboat inventions. I won the right to represent the US FD class in the World Championships that were held in Australia several years ago and then at the last minute US Sailing, called USISA at the time, didn't have the money to send me and my crew.
My catanaran background at the time I designed the SC product line consisted of Hobies,Prindles and a few Tornados. I apologize for being so shallow but that is all that was here in S Florida at the time. I was a monohull sailor at the time and never owned a catamaran.
The mast step that I came up with was a ball and socket with a pin that locks the cup, the socket, onto the ball. The mast step can act as a hinge while raising and lowering the mast and when the mast is in the sailing position, it is free to rotate with the pin still in place. When the shroud extension is activated in case of a turnover, the mast cannot come off the ball and the mast is still free to rotate. I had never seen a mast step with those features before when I designed the one for the SC.
I never used the word "invent" relative to this part. I do not have a patent on it. That is your word and your claim about me. Please do not ever do that again.
Bill

Bill I use the same system on the Alpha Omegas, except that now that the front beams are in carbon and no longer require a dolphin striker, the cup is on the beam and the ball is in the mast base. for years we used a captive mast base that was quite a bit different, It consisted of a stainless steel conical pin in the mast base with a SS cup on the beam (formed on top of the D/striker that passed through the beam) and there were two SS plates, one fixed under the cup and one that would pivot independent of the mast rotation above the "pin". These two plates were pinned together with a clevis pin so that the mast could be raised and lowered and sailed with the mast attached to the beam.It works well but there are more parts than the cup and ball. We used it first (the SS one) in about 1972 and used to buy them off the shelf. The cup and ball idea I borrowed from a combination of variations that were around in the late 70's, particularly on the first 5.2 N.A.C.R.A.
So you sailed FD's?? we, (The Fibreglass Factory) have the only FD moulds registered with the FD association here in Australia and they are made now with carbon fibre, aramids and any other thing that the association thinks is "high tech". We keep telling them that it doesn't matter how "high tech" the materials are that are used in their manufacture, if they realy want to go high tech then they should bring the FD out of the 19th century as a design and try to make it more 21st century. They are not impressed when we say that!
Darryl

Oh and Bill in reference to "Invent" that wasn't in reference to you, but more as a generalisation to the media, lectures, press releases etc etc that I am sure that you have seen the same as myself, where it is quite common for some announcement to be made by a person and/or company, that they have just "invented" the greatest thing since sliced bread, and you look at the "invention" and KNOW that that same item has been around for years and years. The word "invention" is one of those words that today seem to have lost most of its finite meaning through over use and over abuse. It's like the entertainment industry today that has to find new superlative to "boost" the prestige of a particular artist. Words like "star" then "super star" then "mega star" and so it goes and through the inappropriate and over use of the word, it looses most of it's original meaning. Rereading the post I can see why you have assumed reference to yourself but let me clear that up when I say that I was not referring to you or any other one person.
Darryl

Bill,
How many times are you going to use that B.S. "ignorance excuse"?
Pretending you have not seen any other cats since the Hobie 14 & 16 in 1970 is an asinine attempt to justify your lies.

Your statement "I have only seen the newer Hobie Cat products from a distance" is a LIE .
Hobie has been using locking steps for twenty years.
You have been on the beach next to Hobies many times in the past twenty years.
I was at the regatta YOU attended with the Supercat Nationals in Columbia, SC last year.
I saw you parked in the middle of Hobies and Nacras for two days.

And now you are trying to spin "copies one of my ideas" doesn't mean "I invented".
What is the difference between MY IDEA and MY INVENTION?
If you didn't INVENT it, why would it " rub you the wrong way"?

Face it Bill, you were caught in a lie AGAIN, and you can't find enough mathematical formulas to save face.

Give your best spin.

Wow, this poor guy just wants to turn his boat back right-side-up. Mr. Roberts, Mr. Evans, Mr. Barrett. I'm sure you are all my supperior in knowledge and ability, so I won't mention sailing towards you, but please, if you have something constructive for this poor guy, tell him, if not, lets start another thread for this, or better yet, do it via email. I'll admit, that reading it is entertaining, so I really won't mind a thread dedicated to this sort of talk. But please not in a thread where some poor soul needs a question answered.

To the orriginal poster, I hope you found something usefull in the responses. Mr. Barrett seems to cover everything I would have to say about your problem in his first post.

When did this become the let's bash Bill thread. Ease up guys.

Bill, many of us appreciate your posts. I realize that sometimes when posts are written the exact meaning is not always conveyed. Please keep posting and giving your informed point of view.

Mike Hill
Tiger #1520

I bought the H-18 shroud extender (part 1264). Is it safe to install this on the tiger?

Ace, If your shrouds have thimbles the extenders should work. I think they are a good safety item to have, but I know a number of people don't trust the hollow quick release pins that came on mine. I plan on switching to spring loaded toggle pins if I reinstall the extenders. I have never used the extenders, but have had them recommended by other 17 sailors. As I understand it, the key is to loosen the shroud, right the boat bows into the wind, and then while hooked onto/or pulling on the trap wire, tighten the shroud. This avoids the falling mast routine. Good luck! Righting poles, and bags are good too!

Hi Josh,
A few years ago I learned another way to right a beach cat by yourself. This is how I right the RC30.
Put a drag chute in the water off the bow. This will turn the boat hulls parallel to the wind. Then go to the stern and sheet the main in firm and put max slack in the traveller control line. Push/stand on the traveller car/mainsheet and push the car and leech of the mainsail down to the water. The mainsail will inflate and the lift generated by the mainsail will right the boat. The boat will continue to hang on the drag/drough chute until you are ready to sail again and have retreived the chute. It's easy.
Bill

You can really get the 30 footer up like that, thats great, I'm deffinately going to store that one away for reference. Thanks Bill

Now this sound interesting - I find my 17 a struggle when I tip it in.

Once the mast starts to lift I assume at somepoint you need to go from standing on the mainsheet block / traveller to onto the tramp (to get out of the way of the main boom as it come up and then dump the main sheet....Could you take me (and I assume others) thru' this step by step....

Bill, it seems that at least someone has the right avice when it comes to "righting" any cat. If you refer back to my earlier posting you will see that we agree entirely in the principles of "righting a catamaran". The only basic difference between your way and mine is in the "size" of the cat and that you used a "parachute" to put the bows "head to wind" instead of using your body weight (as for a smaller cat) then basically use the wind that "ditched' you to right you.
I can only say that I am rather pleased that I "learnt" my caramaran sailing in Australia where this technique of "safety" for righting a cat has been taught to most sailors when they first start to sail cats since at least the early 70's. It has saved an awful lot of lives as well as unnecessary damage to cats.
Darryl

Darryl,
How do you use your "body weight" to get a capsized small cat head to wind? We usually can't get the bows much closer than a 45-degree angle to the wind.

Hi,

I have a question regarding shroud extenders (Hyfield Levers ?):

Since most cats are 8 or 8.5 feet wide, and most people aren't that tall, how do you reach the shroud extender (hyfield lever) to release it? Even standing on the inside of the bottom hull, and reaching, I cannot reach my shroud. If you try climbing up, you will most likely flip the boat the other way or turtle it again.

Steve
Hobie FX-1, Sail #211

hello,
after sailing the cats i have some ideas about righting one that seem to be out dated and primitive.
first, if by yourself on a 2 man boat swim the bows around after dumping the sheets so the mast doesn't turtle. once the wind is holding the mast up there is time to deploy your righting device. i like the righting bar personally. unless the wind is really howling, you are not going to get a 2 man boat back up without some sort of special device be it water bag righting bar or shroud extenders. shroud extenders will require special short shrouds and a mast foot that cant separate after the shrouds are loosened. Many a ball socket system won't stay together after you take the pin out once it is stepped. I think it is funny to see an old tornado or nacra mast foot that has the pin going thru the ball instead of below the ball like Bill put on the super cats. haveing a pin holding the mast to the socket for raising the mast then removeing it for sailing is quite primitive compared to the SC system.
anyway back to righting the boat. for me righting a 2 man boat solo i could never overcome the pressure of the wind on the tramp by pulling on the dolphin striker. that is why i just swim the bows around enough to get the wind to do the work. if you capsized whilst beating to winward you wouldn't need to swim though because the bows would be pretty close to "head to wind" already. you would have been asleep at the wheel , or showing off too much to capsize on a tight beat though.
hope this helps.

Mary This is an extract from my posting on the first page of this thread.
Wrap one loop of the righting rope around your trapeze harness hook and clamp both ends of the rope at the hook with one hand, this will stop the rope from "running" and you can then let go of the striker strap and lean out supported by your harness. now take both the ropes as they come from your harness hook and "play" the rope out (still around the hook), untill you can reach back and just touch the water with one hand, making sure that your legs are straight (not bent at the knees) and your upper body and your legs are in a straight line, this will mean that your body is at approx' 45 degrees to the water (this is the maximum leaverage that you can exert with your body weight for righting). Now, maintaining that angle to the water and by letting out appropriate amounts of rope, walk as far towards the bow as you can.
What now happens is that as your weight depresses the bow deeper into the water, the transom is lifted accordingly. This creates more resistance to sidesways movement of the cat at the bow and less at the stern. The result being that the cat will quite quickly come up head to wind. When it is head to wind, the wind travelling over the mast and sail(s) will lift the mast and the cat will come to rest, upright and head to wind with you in front of the front trampoline beam and in the middle of the hulls. If it is not coming up you are not head to wind BUt as soon as you are head to wind, the mast will "sail" up.

Mary,
You go swimming and use your body as the drough chute at the bow to turn the boat into the wind. This time it is body drag in the water rather than body weight on the righting line to assist righting.

Steve,
To reach the shroud lever, you first step up on the mast and then reach over to the shroud lever to open it on a narrow boat.
I first developed this system on a 12ft wide boat. There are ropes strung between gromets on the bottom of the tramp forming a ladder between shrond levers when the boat is turned over. At each shroud lever there is a slit in the tramp about 1ft long with a lacing across it. Untie the lacing and reach through the slit and open the shroud lever. Step back down on the tramp and pull on the righting line. The upper shroud extends approximately 18inches. The platform pivots about the captive mast step ball. The bottom hull moves toward the sail 18 inches while the upper hull moves away from the sails 18 inches, 3ft of relative motion change between hulls. The upper hull has moved in the weight balance from a position of retarding righting the boat to a position of helping right the boat. One person can right a 12ft wide SC20 at 450 pounds. When the boat comes up, the shroud that has been extended is to leeward. Keep the nose of the boat toward the wind so that the leeward shroud remains slack so that the leeward shroud can be returned to its original length and tightened by closing the lever. Once the lever is closed and the locking pin back in place, everything is back to normal and the sailing can continue. This is 1978 SuperCat technology.
Bill

Darryl,
The technique you describe is (I think) what most beach-cat sailors do. But I do not believe that will bring the boat head to wind. As I said, 45 degrees is about the best that seems to be achievable.

Bill Roberts said exactly what I was thinking: The only way to do it without using a drogue is to put a crew member in the water -- someone with an appropriate amount of drag to serve as a drogue.

That may not be financially feasible, especially if the designated drogue happens to be your spouse. And especially if you happen to be sailing in ocean areas inhabited by large, aggressive, carnivorous animals.

At any rate, this thread is about righting a boat solo, so without a drogue (or a crew that can be a drag), I still am very skeptical that it is possible to get the boat's bows closer than 45 degrees to the wind.

If you want "large carniverous animals" Mary, come and sail "down under".
I was reaching on a leg last summer in a place called "Esperance" in Western Australia and out on trapeze with one hull about 2' out of the water, I watched as a long dark form of about 12' to 14' passed diagonally under my windward bow and as my head uncontrollably followed it I unconciously put the helm down as I twisted my body to follow that "shape" and proptly put the lee bow deep into the water and was thrown about 15' through the air into the water in front of the cat. The "little fish" that I had seen and I came to an agreement, -if it didn't bite me I wouldn't bite it - Seemed to work OK!
About "getting the bows head to wind" it is imperitive that you take your body weight (on the hull) right up to the bow , or as near as possible, then the cat WILL come head to wind. The only cats that I know of that have some difficulty with this is the Hobie 14 and the Hobie 16, as they tend to be more unstable fore and aft when on their side due to their unique hull shapes.

This reminds me of when I started sailing. Was maybe my third time on a sailboat, and I was with a (bit more experienced) friend sailing a JY15. Well a squall hits us and we flip the boat. He takes his sweet time to help right the JY15, and while I swam around the boat to release the lines, I hit something large and somwhat round with my foot.

I have no idea what I hit....but ive never righted a sailboat so fast!