What is it that some people don't understand?

This irritates the fire out of me!!! I was checking www.foxnews.com and what was one of the headline articles?
<br>
<br>Copy and paste to follow....
<br>
<br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>'God Bless America' Signs Prompt Complaints in Oklahoma School District
<br>
<br>Friday, September 21, 2001
<br>
<br>
<br>BROKEN ARROW, Okla. — Concerns over the separation of church and state have prompted complaints about signs at some area schools that used the phrase "God Bless America."
<br>
<br>
<br>The signs went up following last week's terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Broken Arrow schools spokeswoman Judy Gourd said several parents had complained about the display on school property.
<br>
<br>"We had patrons that were not only unhappy but threatened to sue because the sign had 'God Bless America' on it," Gourd said.
<br>
<br>The school system contacted the Oklahoma State School Boards Association, which said the phrase could be construed as a violation of the separation of church and state under the U.S. Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution, officials said.
<br>
<br>But the executive director of the association, Dr. Keith Ballard, said Friday that it did not advise schools to avoid displaying the signs.
<br>
<br>Ballard said the association's attorneys advised that schools who use the expression make it part of a patriotic display that includes a flag, a picture of the Liberty Bell or some other patriotic quote or symbol.
<br>
<br>"This advice was given to ensure that the schools have no liability if the matter ever came to court — which we would hope would never happen," Ballard said.
<br>
<br>Principals at some schools rephrased the sentiment, but other parents have told the district they want "God Bless America" restored to the signs.
<br>
<br>"The Supreme Court is who makes these rulings, and, unfortunately, they put the schools between a rock and a hard place," Broken Arrow school board President Sharon Whelpley said.
<br>
<br>"Broken Arrow schools is composed of Board of Education members, teachers, staff, students, parents and patrons who support the sentiment that God should bless America," the statement said.
<br>
<br>"Unfortunately, we are also a school district that must comply with the law," it said. "We regret that this has caused any sort of controversy in our community, as we begin the arduous healing process together."
<br>
<br>©Associated Press. All rights reserved.
<br>Copyright © 2001 Standard & Poor's
<br>This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
<br>
<br>Fox News Network, LLC 2001. All rights reserved
<br>
<br>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>
<br>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34877,00.html
<br>
<br>At a time like this, how can some people be such petty A-holes as to bring something up like this!?! So what next? There was an hour long uninterupted prayer service on TV last week. George Bush has talked about praying more times on national TV in the past week than some presidents do in their entire term. Personally I am proud to have G. W. Bush as our president for several reasons, but that is one of them! Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bible thumper, but religion does good things for us.....ESPECIALLY in a time like this. What are these people going to do next? Ask that all the US money be replaced because it says, "In God we trust"? Or change the pledge of allegiance?
<br>
<br>It's not the fact that it's a religious issuse so much...I guess it's the fact that some people can be such... let me say it again... PETTY A-HOLES!!! Probably the same people that were ticked because their favorite TV show was interupted by last weeks events were the same people who complained about the sign in OK.
<br>
<br>Just my little rant for the day..... I probably sounded like a petty A-hole....
<br>
<br>Sail Fast
<br>
<br>Will
<br><br><br>

Will:
<br>
<br>Thank you for sharing the idiocy of some misguided individuals. I can think of better things to worry about at a time like this other than using the phrase "God Bless America" on a sign in a public school.
<br>
<br>Most people forget the principles that this country was founded on especially freedom of speech and religion. Using the phrase "God Bless America" isn't mixing church and state. It's expressing an honest sentiment in a time of crisis.
<br>
<br>Like I stated in response to Rick White's posting of The Grinch with a bin Laden twist, people need to respect the differences of others and learn to get along.
<br>
<br>I consider myself a religious person but I also respect the rights of other. But I don't want them imposing their beliefs on me anymore than I impose my beliefs on others. I let my actions speak for themself (and believe me, I am far from perfect).
<br>
<br>God Bless America!
<br>
<br>Chris<br><br>

When I hear stories like these, I'm inspired to contribute to a fund that will (a) provide these idiots with a one-way (first-class even!) airline ticket to Afghanistan or (b) a trip to New York to personally meet some of the families that suffered such devastating losses. Either way, maybe they'll learn something. It would be interesting to see what their attitude would be if one of their family members had been lost.
<br>
<br>I guess with the millions of people that live in this country, you can't avoid dealing with some morons. Somebody needs to tell these people to "get a life".
<br>
<br>- Bob Johnson<br><br>

A preface - please understand this BEFORE you reply - I personally would never try to have the "god bless" stuff removed, since it appears to help some people, and it doesn't hurt me. HOWEVER
<br>
<br>I am getting a wee bit tired of people using this tragedy as an opportunity to hoist their religion on the rest of the country. Of course the prez can say/pray whatever he wants, he's an individual. But I guarantee that some of the people/families of people killed were not Christians. Had myself or someone dear to me been invlolved in the tragedy, the last thing I'd want is for someone to use my death to glorify a god I didn't believe in. If the signs in front of your kid's school said something about Krishna, you'd be the first to bitch. Wouldn't you? Suddenly, there'd be no more complaining about "petty a-holes," but rather about "violation of separation of Church/State." You wanna talk petty? How about religious leaders who say we all deserve this because we've strayed. Yeah. So lay off of your self righteousness, let people's wounds heal, and go sail.<br><br>

I almost wrote a simmilar reply but was afraid of being misunderstood.
<br>I share the same opinion you expressed. God is a personal matter, not public. Also, religions have already provided enough "reasoning" for absurd acts in the past (and very recent past).
<br>I believe it is better to make all efforts to keep religion out of it, as well as all other human features capable of originating discriminatory issues.
<br><br><br>Luiz

In response to Michael and Luiz:
<br>
<br>“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands one nation under GOD, in devisable, with liberty and justice for all.”
<br>
<br>Seems our forefathers thought God was an important matter, as God is laced through every document they wrote. So some how I think the separation of Church and State that we have today is not truly what they intended. Separation of Church (organizations) and State yes but not separation of God and State, or the Christian principals it was founded on. So you do not like the word God Bless America displayed on our schools, so I guess you do not like the words “in God we trust” on the dollar bill, or the Ten Commandants displayed at many court houses across the country, or the many other symbols and words indicating our devotion to God across this great country. My only fear is the day we forget God and fall into the trap of removing God and our love for God out of the American fabric including our government, and our left to ourselves. When Christian principals leave this government God help us all because what are we left with?<br><br>

You are using a tragedy to promote your religion, not heal the hurt done. Of course you won't let it go. It's more important to you that your religion is established as dominant than that you give up on something which may be hurtful to others.
<br>I really don't wish to have this discussion yet again, but here it goes, Miles, since you insist on proving my point: The principles in our gov't. are not uniquely Christian. Sorry, man, it's true. Of course there are mentions of god. But the concepts of freedom, respect for human rights, and the other key concepts are readily apparent in several other systems which are not only devoid of but prior to Christianity. If you're so lacking in knowledge of other ethical and political systems that you don't believe this, I'd be happy to help educate you. However, if you are, you should probably refrain from making statements like "when Christian principles leave...what are we left with" until you know what we ARE left with. The founding fathers had lots of ideas, and (I hope) we are not opposed to modifying some of them. You know, the stuff about women voting, etc. I have a great deal of respect for several of those individuals, but times change. So I repeat. Get off your moral high-ground and understand that there are highly ethical non-christians out there who keep quiet in order to avoid hurting people's feelings, BUT WHO WOULD APPRECIATE THE SAME COURTESY. Now, when was the last time you went sailing? :-)
<br>Thanks
<br>Michael<br><br>

Sorry you are offended! Cheers!
<br>
<br>

We are left with Judaism, for one among many,
<br>
<br>and Miles, you should realise
<br>CHRIST WAS A JEW.
<br><br><br>

Yes thank you for the reminder and he was also the founder of Christianity and its principals. Remember Christ is seen as a wise person by the Jews but not the Christ and the fulfilling of prophecies. And must I also reminder you what faith crucified Jesus. I have many Jewish friends that will admit to this which of course does not diminish today what a great people and faith they are and in the long run they will blossom as a rose (if it has not already happened but will continue to do so). We could go on and on about this topic. Once again "I know what we will be left with, a few good non-Christian faiths and people standing alone, without the support of their Christian friends."
<br>
<br>

I am American because I was born in Brazil and it is one of the many countries in America, but I am not a citizen of the United States of America. Your continent is America, not your country. You and some of your forefathers may think god is fundamental, but not everyone. You are making only one mistake and it is the same one made in that school: you are assuming that everyone is exactly like you, thinks exactly like you and believes in the same things. This is not always true and the differences MUST be respected. This is the civilized rule, and it can be found in every monotheistic religion.
<br>
<br>I maintain that the mix of god, government, nationality and legality that is understandably present in your mind and feelings has been the cause of several problems in the past. We should all try to avoid repeating them in the future. The past is over, but if we do not learn from it, we will repeat the mistakes.
<br><br><br>Luiz

Sorry you think I am assuming that everyone is exactly like me and think exactly like me and believes in the same things, as I know this is not true and is not my belief. I just believe that Christianity is the foundation of this country and without it this country would be far worse off. That is my belief, sorry that it offends you.
<br>
<br>Also when “Americans” traveled abroad they are almost always never referred to as US Citizen of the USA, but as “Americans.” You may not like this but the fact remains. I am an American that lives in NORTH America. My Canadian friends do not call me a US citizen but an American and they call themselves Canadians. I guess they could call themselves Americans to but historically and logically they know this would not work. Also you are from Brazil and so if you want to call yourself an American more power to you but some how I do not think it will work to well for you, but then again Brazil is a free country so I am told so go for it.
<br>
<br>Also one more thing this country would also be worse off without the non-Christian faiths and organizations, which I also believe to be true. Belief in a God or a Supreme being is central to most faiths. So the meaning of God means many things to many people, hopefully it means to not kill innocent people.
<br>
<br>I am done, I think I’ll go sailing now
<br>
<br>

it just said 'god bless america'. who's god? yours? mine? his? wooter's? tami's? abdual's? no. just god.<br><br>

You said:
<br>he was also the founder of Christianity and its principals.
<br>
<br>::No, the APOSTLES founded Christianity in an attempt to follow Jesus' PRINCIPLES but they didn't get it quite right, as is evidenced by the LONG history of Christianity's blatant disregard for its own teachings and equally long history of vicious tortures and killings in the name of Jesus. Can you say, "Inquisition?" Can you say, "Crusades?"
<br>
<br>
<br>You also said:
<br>Remember Christ is seen as a wise person by the Jews but not the Christ and the fulfilling of prophecies. And must I also reminder you what faith crucified Jesus.
<br>
<br>::Please don't presume to remind me of anything, you aren't that well versed. From your replies it is quite apparent that you haven't been paying too much attention to your own religious teachings. For instance: the Romans crucified Jesus with the complicity of the Jewish priests.
<br>
<br>
<br>More of what you said:
<br>I have many Jewish friends that will admit to this
<br>
<br>::They're just being polite in the face of your bigotry. You are and remain a shining example of one of the many reasons why I'm NOT a Christian, nor do I subscribe to ANY organized religion.
<br>
<br>
<br>More of your statements:
<br>which of course does not diminish today what a great people and faith they are and in the long run they will blossom as a rose (if it has not already happened but will continue to do so).
<br>
<br>::Oh, I'm sure the entire Jewish community is blessed by your benediction.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>And, thankfully, the last of your statements:
<br>"I know what we will be left with, a few good non-Christian faiths and people standing alone, without the support of their Christian friends."
<br>
<br>::And let me make sure that you understand, there are MANY MANY more people in the world who AREN'T Christian than those who are. They, and I, don't need the support of your self-centered Christian prejudice. In fact, in the thousands of years people existed before Christianity, and in its beginning, Christianity has needed and still needs the help of other religions. YOU should be reminded that Christianity is one of the NEWEST religions on earth. And, I'll tell you also that Christianity is an amalgam of things taken from other religions, and for example you should read about the Osiris (Asra) cult in ANCIENT EGYPT... who do you think the Mother Mary was? Why not take a trip thru history and read about Isis, Mother goddesses, there are innumerable virgin mother cults, ALL predating Christianity.
<br>
<br>Miles, of course you have the right to make an argument, but please, at least make an educated one.
<br>
<br><br><br>

Tami,
<br>
<br>You are right - he is wrong. But my advice is to keep your boat clear from his. This is how our ancestors survived.
<br>
<br>Luiz@catsailor.com
<br><br><br>Luiz

Tami,
<br>Wow, I you seem to have a lot of anger stored up for Christians. Since you seem to focus much of your critique on biblical and historical accuracy I would like to recommend to you a small book that all who engage in debates over Christianity and other religions should read (Christians especially should read). The book is called "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. The title refers to him explaining the essence of Christian belief, without all its trappings applied by the established churches, hence the word "mere". You will find it very enlightening, whether or not the book convinces you of the divinity of Jesus. One central point you should know, which is central to Christianity, is that Jesus, in all his teachings, was very clear about his claim he was the "son of God". This claim is blasphemy to a devout Jew and would be grounds for killing in those days. When you read the gospels with an understanding of the culture of those times, you realize that Jesus was very much an "in your face" person to the religious establishment of the day (the pharises).
<br>
<br>Now if someone claims to be devine--to be the Son of God, one could honestly question their sanity. After all there are many in mental institutions today that make such a claim. In regards to Jesus' claim, we are left with three choices in response. One, if you don't accept his claim, but think he is sincere, then you would take pity on him as a deranged person. Two, if you think he is not insane, but lying, then he is an evil person and probably deserved what he got. Third, if you think he is telling the truth, then one's only proper response is to fall at his feet and worship him. (I know that sounds extreme, but how else should one respond to an infinite God, who presents himself to humanity in our form?)
<br>
<br>The Christian obviously believes the third option and hopes that all people will carefully consider their response to Jesus. One's eternal (spiritual) situation may depend on your response. In the end, don't confuse all the trapppiings of organized religion with the central message of Christianity; that message often gets hidden. Thank you for bearing with me on this short explanation. I do find a relation between the spiritual side of life and sailing, and its not just when facing a potential pitchpole.<br><br>

>>Follow up to Tami:
<br>
<br>::You said:
<br>he was also the founder of Christianity and its principals.
<br>
<br>::No, the APOSTLES founded Christianity in an attempt to follow Jesus' PRINCIPLES but they didn't get it quite right, as is evidenced by the LONG history of Christianity's blatant disregard for its own teachings and equally long history of vicious tortures and killings in the name of Jesus. Can you say, "Inquisition?" Can you say, "Crusades?"
<br>
<br>>>Apparently you are also not well versed in Christian history. The ORIGINAL Apostles were murdered before they created an actual organized church and it is also a recorded fact that Christ turned the keys of his kingdom over to Peter the chief Apostle and also to James and John. The Roman Christian Church was created 200 years after Peter’s death and has no direct lineage to Peter or Christ, so don’t equate the Original Apostles teachings with the many Christian faiths that used killing as their tool. I know someone is going to bring up the point “does one have to have direct lineage to be connected with Christianity” and I will say yes and no, it’s a long topic so email me if you would like.
<br>
<br>::You also said:
<br>Remember Christ is seen as a wise person by the Jews but not the Christ and the fulfilling of prophecies. And must I also reminder you what faith crucified Jesus.
<br>
<br>::Please don't presume to remind me of anything, you aren't that well versed. From your replies it is quite apparent that you haven't been paying too much attention to your own religious teachings. For instance: the Romans crucified Jesus with the complicity of the Jewish priests.
<br>
<br>>>Actually I will remind you of what I am quite well versed in which is the before mentioned statement and also that there is little indication that you can assume I am not well versed from just a few sentences. Once again the Romans are not part of my religious history! Don’t assume every Christian religion sprang from Roman in or around that area because that just is not true.
<br>
<br>::More of what you said:
<br>I have many Jewish friends that will admit to this
<br>
<br>::They're just being polite in the face of your bigotry. You are and remain a shining example of one of the many reasons why I'm NOT a Christian, nor do I subscribe to ANY organized religion.
<br>
<br>>>So I am a bigot for stating the facts, interesting. Actually my Jewish friends are quite open and truthful, and also quit knowledgeable on the topic. Our conversations are based on historical facts not emotions such as your self. I guess anyone that talks about historical facts are bigots. You are not a Christian or subscribe to ANY organized religion, good for you, if thats what makes you happy and fits you belief system!
<br>
<br>::More of your statements:
<br>which of course does not diminish today what a great people and faith they are and in the long run they will blossom as a rose (if it has not already happened but will continue to do so).
<br>
<br>::Oh, I'm sure the entire Jewish community is blessed by your benediction.
<br>
<br>>>Grow up! It is a prophecy that the Jews will return to their homeland and that the city Jerusalem will be one of the most if not the most beautiful city in the world. I am very interested in Jewish history and the predictions of the future for the Jewish peoples bright future as it is quite important to know about it and that is why I also talk regularly with those of the Jewish faith. I might add they know I am not a bigot but a person seeks understanding. Seems you are not well educated about the Jewish people and their teachings so I think you should not be speaking in their behave either. I off course am not expert either but do regularly study with them and others of different faiths.
<br>
<br>::And, thankfully, the last of your statements:
<br>"I know what we will be left with, a few good non-Christian faiths and people standing alone, without the support of their Christian friends."
<br>
<br>::And let me make sure that you understand, there are MANY MANY more people in the world who AREN'T Christian than those who are.
<br>
<br>>>I am talking about the US not the world.
<br>
<br>::They, and I, don't need the support of your self-centered Christian prejudice. In fact, in the thousands of years people existed before Christianity, and in its beginning, Christianity has needed and still needs the help of other religions. YOU should be reminded that Christianity is one of the NEWEST religions on earth. And, I'll tell you also that Christianity is an amalgam of things taken from other religions, and for example you should read about the Osiris (Asra) cult in ANCIENT EGYPT... who do you think the Mother Mary was? Why not take a trip thru history and read about Isis, Mother goddesses, there are innumerable virgin mother cults, ALL predating Christianity.
<br>
<br>>> Once again it is prophesy not a self-centered support, get it straight. The Greeks as well as many others have contributed to many forms of religion but that does not make Christ less unique because there are many teaching within Christianity that are unique and many that are not. It is also known that Christ was not known in much detail to the world during his growing years before his ministry in his late 20’s (until is death at age 34 – it is believed that was his age) and many believe he traveled about the various countries of his time learning from various people and groups. There are actually a few and might add vague records that he was actually sited at non-Christian sites learning from knowledgeable non-Christian people, so it may be assumed he used some of their good teaching with his own teaching. Some Christians think this is blasphemy or that the Bible is the only truth or source of truth, I tend to believe we can learn much from what is not in the Bible (and what is in the Bible), and what God or a Supreme being or what ever you call God has imparted to many people throughout the world. I might add that there are Christian type documents that are not connected with other religions. Have you read the Dead Sea Scrolls? And the interesting documents from South American. I assure there are many documents you have not read just like I have not read. Yes why don’t you take a trip through history other than a trip through the history that supports only your points. Also I am not into Mother Mary as a goddesses, she is the mother of Jesus but not a god or someone to pray to, that is to say in my faith, still I have no problem with those who want to worship her as a god like person, and why should I it their belief and faith. So I suppose you will call me a bigot for not believing Mary is not a god or agreeing with you, or agreeing with you on your take of religion, seems to be the pattern with you.
<br>
<br>>>You call me prejudice and self-centered for talking about religion, how about not calling names and just speaking in an adult manner, try it you might get more understanding and open dialogue.
<br>
<br>::Miles, of course you have the right to make an argument, but please, at least make an educated one.
<br>
<br>>>My arguments are very educated as I was a missionary for over 2 years unpaid and learned and enjoyed the company of many non-Christian faiths, not counting the years I have study religion (not just Christian religion). Seems some enjoy calling names to get more of an emotional response. You know people can talk about religion very openly even though there have been offenses by each faith against the other. I do have to admit that many Christian faiths try to divorce their past due to the difficulty of the offenses of their ancestors inflicted, instead of learning from it.
<br>
<br>>>I think we could go on and on regarding various religious topics so if you want to continue this dialogue please feel free to email me. I apologize if I have offended you but hopefully you will learn that people are not just bigots or self-centered just because they do not fit your take on religion or lack of it. Once again try to understand before calling names through open dialogue and understand if that is a goal of yours! I must add I do not think I am the leading authority on any religious topic but just that I have learned from various religions and documents and it is an interest of mine, nothing more with no prejudice connected. I will try to get a couple of my Jewish friends to email you about this topic sense you think I am a bigot for saying it, I am sure they will wonder why you feel this way.
<br>
<br>>>I will continue this discussion through email because we could go on and on. So please email me if you want and I could also connect anyone here with a non-denominational forum that discusses many of these topics.
<br>
<br>>>Cheers
<br>
<br>

not to try to piss any one off in this sensitive time of ours, but, i have never met a canadian who would call him/herself an american.<br><br>

David - your argument about the divinity of Christ is flawed, it only works from a limited Western framework. Read the Lotus Sutra, specifically the part about expedient means, maybe it will open your mind a bit. Since I HAVE read Mere Christianity, along with almost all of Lewis' other books, maybe you should be the one to broaden your own horizons. I mean that in a friendly way, not as a slam.
<br>Miles - still no explanation of how saying "god," and by the way you know full well that they mean a single god, not gods or goddess, was any more acceptable than "krishna bless america" or "the goddess bless america." Would you be upset about that or not, if those two statements were on your kid's school? Should I even bother to ask? Be honest. And yet you expect atheists, agnostics, hindus pantheists, etc. to accept your "god" because it is "harmless." By the way, those of us who hold monist or pantheist views tend to find your talk of "god" amusing.
<br>It's also funny that you backpedalled on your statement about what we would be left with - why is the U.S. the only country that would be left with a "few" good non-christians, if other cultures are able to survive without it? You are unwilling to take the stand that predominantly non-Christian cultures are filled almost totally with evil, unethical people. So what was your point, when you said that was almost all the U.S. would be left with. I'm quite curious, actually...
<br>Feel free to e-mail me, my address is linked under my post in the open forum about a N5.2 board.
<br>Thanks,
<br>Michael<br><br>

Perhaps you guys might not believe it, but there are quit a few 'non-religious' (i.e. agnostic or atheist) persons out there who believe that life is precious and should be revered. Non-chrisitianity will not, and has not, destroyed this country. This country was founded, in part, for freedom of religion. Worship and follow whatever you wish - I don't think any particular religion should be 'officially' (i.e. school/government) presented on us or our children.<br><br>[color:blue][b]Jake
<br>[color:blue][b]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
<br>[color:blue][b]Hobie 18 (???)

Thanks - so does the 5.2 teach us openmindedness, or are open minded people attracted to the 5.2? :-)
<br>That's a joke, "y'all"
<br>Michael
<br>BTW, Jake, I may have found a 5.2 parts boat to buy, let me know if you are looking for anything (rudders, etc.)<br><br>

Yes, as a matter of fact it does. The Nacra 5.2 teaches us, because it's such a minority, that's it's "O.K." to be different. It's great to see that we've round a community that will let us, and our minority believer 5.2s play with the other kids (And then we'll beat them up!) <br><br>[color:blue][b]Jake
<br>[color:blue][b]Nacra 5.2 (2112)
<br>[color:blue][b]Hobie 18 (???)