NAMSA's Proposed Regions-Your Opinion?

NAMSA is considering the following regional divisions for North America.
The file is located at http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/38649-Areamap.gif

Let us know here what you think.
Rick

Hello Rick

What is the point?

Why deviate so dramatically from the US Sailing regions?

Why are you guys reinventing the wheel?

What do you hope to achieve with a region of MD DC and NJ.

In any event, in the natural sailing region of the Chesapeake Bay sailing Area.... we have Sailors who go to Va Beach, DC Maryland, Deleware and Pennsylvania to sail

In addition we have the New Jersey sailors who come down to race quite often north of Baltiomore (god only knows how they deal with the Turnpike) but they don't go by three major cities to Philadelphia, Baltimore and DC to get to the Potomac River to race.

I would think that you should use the regional sailing associations as a starting point.... not a cookie cuttter approach sorted by states if you want to reorganize for the sake of reorganiztion.

As you may have gathered... I still have not percieved a reason for NAMSA's exisitence

Respectfully
Mark Schneider

Rick,
You show the states of NJ, PA, DE, MD and VA as being one color on the map, indicting, it seems, one area. However, the color code to the left only lists NJ, DE and MD. Please clarify. From a locals point of view, VA, MD and DE center their sailing around the Chesapeake, with lesser involvement of PA and NJ. (NJ has many fine venues along their Atlantic shoreline.)
Thanks,
David

Mark,
I think we should find out from whoever set up these divisions what their reasoning was. Some people have obviously done considerable work on this.

Personally, I agree that it is very confusing if the divisions are all different for US Sailing, for the Hobie Class, and for NAMSA. And then, of course, there are also the divisions we use for the regatta schedules in Catamaran Sailor magazine and on the catsailor.com website.

I do think that the Area divisions that work for US Sailing do not necessarily work well for the beach cats, because the US Sailing network is based upon yacht clubs and Regional Sailing Associations (RSA's) of affiliated yacht clubs, all of which relate to their ladder programs to get to various US Sailing Championships.

Multihulls are mostly not affiliated with yacht clubs, so maybe we need a different geographical layout. I don't know.

Anyway, Rick just saw this for the first time yesterday and posted it to get feedback.

The regions really don't deviate much from US Sailing's regions. The ND, DC, NJ also contains VA and part of PA if you look at the map. I just didn't have room in the text to describe exactly each region.

It deviates somewhat because it encompasses all of North America as opposed to just the US. We are still open to suggestions. I combined Area's A and B because it seems to make sense. There has always got to be some club on the edge of the Area that seems out of place.

Mike Hill
Regions Chair
Tiger #1520

Well an opinion is worth what you pay for it.
Mine is that Texas should be part of 5 not 8. because we travel to the coast states all the time and have never even considered going to colorado to race, ski maybe.

Hey Mark,

After thinking about this, I've changed my mind. I do believe there is a need for some sort of National Organization. However I think the scope should be expanded. I think it should be an organization not just for multihull sailors, but for sailors of all kinds. We could attempt to serve the common needs of the sailing community of the entire United States.

We can perhaps create an organization, leverage existing yacht clubs, Regional Sailing Associations, etc., to try to build a national community organization to administer the sport of sailing in the U.S..

Services we could provide to members might include:

Promote and develop racing under uniform rules

Exchange Information among sailors

Providing input to the ISAF regarding the racing rules of sailing

A certification program for judges, races officers, sailing instructors, etc.

Administration of Portsmouth, PHRF, or formula based rating/handicap systems

Providing for reduced rate Regatta and Club insurance by grouping our needs together at a National level.

Providing a forum for rules arbitration at levels higher than the local regatta (a rule/appeal system).

We could also form individual committees or groups to act as mediums of exchange of information among specific groups of sailors, like multihullers, and yet they could still be part of the larger organization promoting the like interests of all the sailors.



I suggest we all agree to meet in say... Portland Oregon, in late October, maybe the weekend of the 23rd, to discuss the idea of creating such an organization!

We have competed in twelve events this year. Ten of them were SOUTH of Virginia. One in Maryland the other in New Jersey.
We reside in Virginia, near Va Beach.
I don't care for US Sailing's set-up at all. Or this one, but I don't sail in any NASMA events, so I guess it does not matter.
Nearly every sailor in Va Beach that travels to regattas goes South. Not North.

Tracie

Thanks for the input from all, sarcastic and negative ones as well.

What NAMSA is about is to get the sailors out there to critique and suggest. This is obviously a first draft that needs some work.

After we sift through your suggestions and ideas and criticisms, etc., and after further considerations we then will put this all up for a vote by the entire membership.., and by all the Chapters.
It is called democracy. We want the NAMSA sailors to decide issue of this much importance.

Thanks,
Rick

Is Cuba in Area 5? Of course, they are welcome as long as they are sailors!

Don't forget a US championship the pulls 20 top sailing teams together for a first rate regatta on brand new chartered identical boats and sponsors a Junior championship for the kids as well.

But Jamie … that would take participation and work on our part to effect such an agenda.... I know you have done your part as past Alter chair... it’s my turn this year for the Area C

Take Care
Mark Schneider
Area C PRO, CRAC and Miles River Yacht Club

PS Jamie Check out CRAC's new online registration and regatta management web site. www.sailregattas.com/crac or on the CRAC web page... this program enables you to see all of the relevant documents for a regatta, register on line... order your extra t shirts, dinners, pay your dues, etc, collect your early registration discount, your US Sailing and NAHCA discount, Pay by credit card online and see immediately who else is competing... Oh yeah... it dumps the data into a csv delimited spreadsheet for use in excel or Sailwave.

We do, however, go to Texas to race - boats, that is. I don't think Texas offers much in the way of skiing. Maybe you should consider coming to Colorado for some sailing. Our fleet has more than 40 boats, with 30 of them very active. Not bad for a land-locked state.

Jamie,
It would help if you or somebody connected with the Multihull Council and Multihull Committee would explain exactly what those two bodies are able to do within US Sailing and how they are funded.

When Gordon Isco was Multihull Council Chairman, he made it very clear that the Multihull Council is not actually able to DO anything -- just make recommendations to the board of US Sailing.

I know the creation of the Multihull Committee added a little more power and maybe some budget money? I don't know, because nobody has ever explained all this very well. I am under the impression that the Multihull Youth Championship is privately funded. And I don't know about the Alter Cup.

NAMSA is not supposed to in any way be in conflict with US Sailing and the Multihull Council. My vision of NAMSA is that it can be an ex-oficio arm of the Multihull Council and implement many of the ideas and suggestions the Council receives but is not able to act upon.

All sailors (at least racing sailors) should belong to US Sailing, as far as I am concerned. But I also see a need for an organization that is specifically of, by and for multihulls to work hand-in-hand with the Multihull Council but be able to fund things and do things that the Multihull Council cannot.

In effect, NAMSA is like a class association except that it brings together all classes of multihulls because there are so few of each. It is no more in competition with US Sailing than the Sunfish Class Association is.

Mary, I really don't believe there's anything that the Multihull Council and the Multihull committee can't do. All it takes, as I believe you are learning with NAMSA, and as Mark Schneider said, "that would take participation and work on our part to effect such an agenda."

The limiting factor is the lack of volunteers/workers. US Sailing doesn't have extra money and extra workers just laying around. However they already have the organizational framework in place.

The work of both the Multihull Council and Multihull Committee is, I believe, privately funded, just like NAMSA. The advantage is we don't have to re-invent the organization. Take the efforts that are going to building NAMSA and instead direct them to improving and directing US Sailing.

It would be far easier to work in the existing framework, and to direct money and volunteers there, bringing our agenda with them, to participate in and help shape the direction of US Sailing, then it will be to create a new organization to do the same thing.

Jamie,
With that philosophy, all the existing sailing classes and associations (like the Hobie Class Assn., for instance) should disband and all their members should just throw their efforts into US Sailing as individuals?

As a multihull sailing association, NAMSA is a voting member of US Sailing and is able to cast a vote on things that require a vote, just as the Multihull Council gets to have at least one or two votes. As a separate association, therefore, NAMSA can help the Multihull Council to get things passed that are beneficial to multihulls. The same thing with HCA and any other multihull associations or multihull one-design classes that belong to US Sailing – associations get a vote, whereas individual sailors do not.

So the best way to “shape the direction of US Sailing” is to be an association with voting rights and also to have a delegate at the Multihull Council meetings to give input about the needs and interests of the particular association.

The Multihull Council should actually be encouraging more multihull associations to form and to join US Sailing. When you look at all the multihull classes there are, if all of them would form class associations and all of those class associations would join US Sailing, we would have a large number of multihull-friendly votes! Maybe we could even convince US Sailing to include a multihull in the Junior Olympic Festivals or elect a multihull sailor as president of US Sailing.

Nope Mary, I disagree. They should not disband. They have a decidedly different focus. I believe all of the one design classes should be strong, grow, and join US Sailing. I believe the Hobie Class Association should really be 5 or 6 class associations, all joining as members (i.e. the Hobie 16 Class Association, the Hobie 20 CA, the Tiger CA, etc..) I believe we should work more closely with and be members of the RSAs like I-LYA and DRYA who are already members, and should have multihull representatives. I believe we should work harder to integrate with the ranks of all of the rest of the sailors. I believe in 99% of what you are saying. When there is a need and a void we should form an organization to get what needs done done.

At US Sailing OCRA can represent me, CRAM can represent me, I-LYA can represent me, Area E can represent me, etc..

In this situation there is a void. But it is not a lack of organizations. It is a lack of volunteers in our existing organizations. More organizations without more volunteers simply make more work, spread our efforts thinner, and increase the organizational overhead without accomplishing anything more.

So in that context what I don't see is the need for or point of NAMSA. It just seems redundant organizationally to me.

An idea:
If just 3 multihull people, NAMSA people if you want, were to attend US Sailing meetings consistently for the next 3 or 4 years. If they volunteered as members of the junior sailing committee. If they hung around long enough to get their faces known and to establish credibility, I bet you would find that multihulls were in the JOs. All it takes is just a very few people who are willing to volunteer and hand around long enough to make it happen.

People, not organizations, will change the face of US Sailing and the sport of sailing in the United States.

Jamie
The Hobie 16, Hobie 17, Hobie 18, Hobie 20 and Hobie Tiger are all US Sailing member classes.

Jamie,
As far as getting a multihull into the JO Festivals, the reason that has not happened is that we do not have a widespread racing program for youth multihull sailors.

US Sailing has made it clear that if we can guarantee enough youth sailors at specific JO Festival sites and if we can guarantee enough boats are going to be provided, AND if we can show that there is a coordinated program of youth racing on multihulls, they will approve a multihull category.

So it is not a matter of three people "hanging around" and getting known and bugging people; it is a matter of multihull sailing organizations working together to get our own programs going first. This is something the Multihull Council cannot do because it is not part of its "Purpose" within US Sailing.

The Multihull Council exists to represent the interests of multihull sailors within US Sailing -- it does not exist to implement and administer racing programs or any other proactive activities. I am sure Gordon Isco or Bill Doelger, or even US Sailing President Janet Baxter, would confirm that.

If you have a list of things that could be accomplished by the Multihull Council if you had more volunteers, please share it.

Mary, I disagree. I believe that this is something that could be done via the Youth committee at US Sailing if we had multihull minded members, that is volunteers, working on it. I don't think this would be best accomplished via NAMSA, via the Multihull Council, or via the Multihull committee. It would be best pursued by getting people on the committee that does the JOs and then working from within that organization. Again, their are already plenty of Councils, Committees, etc. Just not enough volunteers to get something like multihulls at JOs. Probably a big factor here is we don't have enough say Hobie 16 fleets in major yacht clubs. I think this problem gets fixed by getting our biggest one-design fleets to become fleets within yacht clubs instead of living in their separate world and then asking why we are not included in the big yacht club events.

This argument is going nowhere, so let's just agree to disagree so that we can get back to the purpose of this thread, which is to ask the sailors themselves
what they think about this NAMSA proposal for geographical sailing divisions.

If people want to debate the usefulness of NAMSA vis-a-vis the Multihull Council, please start another thread for that. Leave this thread for the people who want to get on with the work of NAMSA.

Thanks.

I am likely one of the sarcastic ones, But really, why do I care what color my state is on the map? Am I going to be invited to a meeting in the middle somewhere? Does it matter if [color:"blue"] Colorado [/color] and [color:"red"] Texas[/color] are together and we dont generally sail together? Would there be some sort of area related issues that would need to be voted on within our group? Please give me more information other than do I like my [color:"green"]color [/color]

Hi Marc,
What we are looking for is a good division of North America that groups likely multihull sailors. Color is not an issue.., forget that. This is just a gif trying to show the lines of division.
What we need is input by the mulithull sailors out there on what they think the division lines should be.
Naturally, anyone can cross the line to sail in another region, just as in any class or even US Sailing.

And we wanted to keep the number of regions low, i.e., we could divide into 25 or 30 regions.

Please keep the input coming. We need your help.
Thanks
Rick

Hi Mary,
We in Ontario Canada are excited about NAMSA and feel that Hobie has deserted us. H. Div. 16 doesn't work for us because we are only about 50% H boats. So, Matt and company will find that we will probably drop most associations with said company and join an OPEN organization namely NAMSA.

Marc, your folks have had quite a while to chat with the NAMSA folks and request what you wanted. And I think that this is only a preliminary proposal anyway. So, if you have a suggestion lets hear it.

Rick,

I think Marc Reiter has a point, sort of. Sailors in south Texas seem to gravitate more toward races in La. Fl. Ala. etc. and have easy access to ocean-style sailing. It's rare for the high-plains and mountain sailors to go that far south unless it's a nationals or some other major event. However, several of us travel to north Texas for events and we've had them join us for races in our area.

Maybe split Texas between the mountain and southern divisions. You also might consider grouping Utah with the mountain division, rather than the So. Cal. region.

Perhaps somebdy can explain to me why non-Hobie sailors want to join a Hobie fleet and why they are so upset at not being allowed to join? I don't own a Laser and I can't join the Laser Assocaition.

I notice pitchpoledave even refers to his Division as a H Div 16. He also mentions that 50% of the H Division are Hobies, so why don't these hobie sailors stay with Hobie?

I am confused as the non Hobie sailors want to be members of a group that is not of their class Also why they want to drag the Hobie sailors away from their own class which to me seem to support thier sailors.

Sorry the whole thing is lost on me

Hello new

It is confusing but here is one spin on it.
The Hobie Division structure has evolved over time. The name trade name,"Hobie" does not accuratly describe the situation on the ground in 2004 in many areas. Today, each division is a defacto regional sailing authority for cats (more or less), much like the CBYRA which serves the Chesapeake bay region for Big boats and dinghies. The Hobie Divisions are composed of clubs which are named hobie fleet xx but today they really serve as paper yacht clubs for all beach cats. These paper clubs have both hobie members and non hobie brand boat members. In addition to the Hobie yacht clubs... you also have other cat clubs which use more generic names... eg CRAC or WRCRA. CRAC has been an associate member of Hobie Division 11 in the past but in any event the organizations work to coordinate a schedule for the mid atlantic.

What is happening is that the Hobie Corporation and the Hobie International and the North American Hobie organizations have decided to turn back the clock, and reserve their trademark "Hobie" for events that are truly Hobie only.

So yacht clubs/Hobie fleets are being forced to make choices on how they run events. In an ideal world this probably could work out however, the reality is that clubs are small and they are now faced with hosting two regattas instead of the one they normally run if they want to serve all of their members. The Tornonto club, for example, would need one Hobie only event and and one Open only event instead of their one combined event. That's tough to do when the number of volunteers is low and the amount of work needed to run an event for 20 boats is the same as it would be for 40 boats AND you only have so many weekends in the sailing season to choose from.

So, This is forcing yacht club/Hobie fleets to choose their future.

One outcome of this debacle is the discussion to establish another set of regional sailing authorites under the NAMSA banner. (Thus the map).

The most important role a RSA serves is the coordination of the areas schedule. When everyone wants the same dates on the calander the RSA is usally the final word. In CBYRA, this is managed by the term Sanctioned... the Collection of Clubs, aka CBYRA, cannot stop you from runnng your event in conflict with someone else, however, they won't sanction you... keep your scores posted, include your results in any of the regional year long series etc etc.

I have no clue how a new RSA under NAMSA and a RSA of Hobie only Divisions will benefit the rank and file cat racer.

In a perfect world, each Hobie fleet or Cataraman Club would join their RSA, In the Bay, this would be the CBYRA, under this umbrella, the clubs would organize the schedule, set rules for high point, etc etc and serve the various classes in their club and region. In this kind of organization each class formulates a strategy for their season and their class president works it out the yacht clubs for starts at the sanctioned regattas.

In the good old days cat sailing was large enough to go their own way.... Today, cat sailing should try to integrate into the mainstream of sailing while maintaing the unique flavor (Hobie way of life, etc etc)they have developed over the years.

Just my spin.

Take Care
Mark

Let me add a bit more confusion to the mess.

While what Mark describes is certainly true in some parts of North America, it is not the case throughout the region.

There are still a fair number of "true" Hobie Fleets out there (Hobie Fleet 204 in Syracuse, NY being a classic example).

Matt, I believe we met at Quonset Point, or perhaps New Bedford some years back, so I know you are familiar with Division 12, and Fleets 28, and 448. 448 is still probably the biggest fleet in New England, but we are seeing many members leave, and 28 is all but deceased! For MANY years the same people have run all the events. Many have moved on to other brands of boats, and if they are excluded they have no reason to do all that work. In 448 we work hard to recruit new members, I got one new member this year, and I preach about the fleet and Division all year! There aren't many that will devote all the time and work that goes into running events. Mark's comments are right on for most of the country! I say this as someone that loves my Hobie, understands the "one design" race, but really is more interested in seeing the sport grow. Do you see any Hobie Fleets growing dramatically since the new directives came out? How about the number of regattas and races? I just don't see any way this has helped fleets or the sport. I know you are a real authority on the sport, and Hobie racing, so I am asking with hopes that you can help me understand how things are going to be better. Thanks, Brian

Brian, it must have been at Quonset Point in 1999, since I've never sailed at New Bedford.

I lived in Maine from 1983-1985 and raced extensively in Hobie Division 12. I got to know a lot of people from Hobie Fleets 28, 448, 209, and of course my own fleet, 231.

I know many old faces are gone and / or have moved on to other brands of boats. It's happened in my own division. (Nearly everybody that races in CRAM started out on a Hobie.) People get burned out, they have other priorities (kids) and / or they develop other interests. Personally, if I was getting beat up in B or C fleet every other week, I'd soon lose interest in racing. At some point, a Fleet just has to say, "We aren't going to hold our traditional event this year. We're tired, and we need a break." There's no shame in that.

Mark's comments are right on for significant parts of the country, but to expand it to a broad generalization across the country is just not correct.

My current Hobie Fleet (276) lay dormant for several years. I had no interest in carrying the load - I was too involved on a regional level. Finally, a guy came along who became our "sparkplug" - he got us off our collective rear ends and back into Hobie sailing on a local level. Our emphasis is on having fun - not racing. There are a core group of us who take turns hosting fun sails and parties. The only thing that we all have in common is ownership of a Hobie Cat. I've made some great new friends and I really get into the "mentor" role of helping people get their boats working right and most importantly, out on the water.

There are fleets that are growing. Fleet 276 has gone from nothing to a paid membership of 20 or so in 2 years. Hobie Fleet 519 in Portage, MI has 5 new members this year. At least 2 of their existing members have sold non-Hobies and bought H-16's. Hobie Fleet 204 is a growth machine - we could all learn from them. They are working on their third and fourth generation of sailors.

These are just the fleets that I have personal knowledge of. I'm sure there are others.

Likewise, there are fleets that are dying or already dead (they just won't admit it). It's part of the natural cycle.

I don't know where the Hobie One-Design policy will lead us. I know that what has happened in the past (and I take responsibility for some of that past) has not helped the class grow.

There are some very encouraging signs of new growth. Hobie Cat Company will be supplying 35 boats for the 2005 Hobie 16 North Americans to be held in Southern California next July. They've made a committment to do this for three years. They haven't supplied boats for a regional event since 1989. The self-organized Rehoboth Fall Classic next week will draw over 25 Hobie 17's - and they're just racing for fun. No points, no titles - just a good time. Tigers are really starting to take off, admittedly at the expense of some of the other Hobie Classes (the 18's and 20's), but there is still net positive growth. Even the Hobie 14 is showing a resurgence - look at the Newport frostbite series. In what other catamaran class can you buy a 32 year old boat and trailer for $600, clean it up, put on a new sail and place 2nd in the North Americans (I did).

I know that there's a lot of anxiety about what going to happen next year. I'm confident that the new leadership of the HCA (Ed Muns, Bob Merrick and Rob Jerry) will carry us through. I'm just going to keep sailing, no matter what.

Matt Bounds
Hobie 16 108389
Hobie 14 32350
Hobie Tiger 1111

Hi Matt

I agree with your qualification, I was certainly not trying to characterize all Hobie fleets around the country.
The national politics is important but not the essential factor for revival.

You noted a couple of positive situations:
A recreation centered fleet, Syracuse and Rehoboth.

I would like your comments on why Syracuse and Rehoboth are successful. ... I would also add to those groups, two open fleets, Sandy Hook and WRCRA and the Bristol and West River A boat fleets as other fleets which have experienced great success over the last few years.

It seems to me that they have a couple things in common.
1) They have a facility where the mast is up
2) They have a low key local racing program (OK maybe not Bristol)
3) They have a mission: They focus on growing new sailors by supporting adults in learning to race cats AND/OR they have a juniors program that gets their kids involved.

In the future ... I believe that revival will occur when we integrate with existing yacht clubs and follow these principles.

Take Care
Mark

This is getting off the thread a little, but I have to add Denver's Fleet 61 to the list of successful Hobie Fleets. We have about 55 paid members and get 35 to 40 boats at our regattas. We'll feed 125 to 135 people at the largest events. Our fastest growing fleet is the 20 with three new owners this year and at least two others getting boats in time for next season.

I think our success comes from several factors. First is an enthusiastic core group that shares responsibilities of Commodore, social commodore, racing, newsletter, membership and treasurer. We also continue to attract new people - boat owners and NBOs who get involved with running events. Second is the diversity of events. Our division holds six points events and five social or fun-sailing events each season - one of which is a fundraiser that generated $5,200 for Craig Hospital (the facility that treated Roy Horn. The event was mentioned on a Maria Schriver-hosted TV program about Horn).

But I think Mark is right about getting involved with local yacht clubs as a key to generating membership and giving catamaran sailing some credibility in the eyes of "mainstream" sailors. Over the last two seasons we've been showing up at open events with enough boats to get our own start and the half-boaters are starting to take notice. Another area we're starting to focus on is youth sailing. We have a handfull of enthusiastic youth sailors, but next season we're putting on a fundraising regatta for the local youth sailing organization that I hope will become an annual event. I think this new regatta could become a source of not just young sailors getting involved with the fleet, but their entire families who come out to support their kids and see how much fun multihull sailors have.

Since Hobie's new membership rules went into effect, we've actually gained one or two members who sold thier boats and bought a Hobie. I support the idea of NAMSA as a way to support the sport in general, but without a local core group of individuals, or a "sparkplug" as Matt said, who are willing to organize a few events, I don't see how this organization will ever take hold in this region where Hobie is the dominant multihull on the water.

Update from the Northwest. We are predominantly Hobie-only (will be next year per the mandate). We only had 2 or 3 non-Hobies: a couple Inter 20's and a Prindle 19. We saw a slight dip in attendance at regattas this year as several sailors (incl. Ken & Eric Marshack) bought A-Cats and developed their own circuit.

We are seeing incredible growth in the Hobies, particularly the Hobie 16. For the past 3 years we have been teaching Hobie 101 and 102 classes to standing-room only crowds! Nearly everyone who sails a beach cat today started out on a H-16 at one point or another. Our Hobie 16 fleet in the Northwest hasn't been this big in 15 years!! We are already seeing the H-17 and H-18 fleets grow, too, as some people get bored on their 16. I expect the A-cat fleet will see growth from this well. It is just a matter of time.

For us here in the Northwest, the key has been educating and providing opportunities for the new sailor. People from all walks of life are (re-)discovering the thrill of catamaran sailing.

Matt et al, Thanks for the facts, and the thoughtful reply. It is good to hear that some fleets are still growing! 448 runs an intro to cat sailing every June with a local adult ed organization. I know they usually get at least a couple of new members each year from that, but 28 used to run terrific Hobie seminars with at least one having a large turn out. Most of the attendees I never saw again! I guess a lot of it is just luck with the timing and who you get. As you said, a lot of people have moved on to other boats, and others have moved away, or taken time for families etc...That is certainly what happened to Fleet 28. I will miss all the great events! Perhaps in time there will be a revival here too. There are a growing number of us that just "fun sail". Brian

Hi Guys,
Great to hear that things are going well in parts of the country.
Meanwhile, it would be greatly appreciated if we could get back to the subject of the thread.
Thanks,
Rick

The question still stands Rick... anybody?

WHY???

Why do you want to build a Fourth level of regional sailing associations?

Jamie described the US Sailing Mission previously. AND they host regional Alter Cup qualifiers regionally! A real and tangable mission.

NAHCA has their RSA.... How universal this structure will be for all beach cats remains to be determined in 2005. (supposedly Hobie only) How strong each NAHCA regional organization is depends on the region in North America. How many people/fleets participate in the Hobie divisions is unclear.

Hobie Div 11 holds one scheduling meeting, publishes a regatta book, hosts a website and scores a season Highpoint series for Hobies, Shares a set of equipment among clubs.... Tangible stuff.

Most sailing areas have their own Regional Sailing Association... eg CBYRA on the Bay ... ps... All you need to do is participate if you want to share the benefits of a RSA. Why can't they serve any function that you feel is lost when NAHCA goes its own way in a region? (Do they work for EVERY OTHER kind of sailing vessel execpt beach CATS???)

What is NAMSA going to do as the Fourth level of Regional Sailing Association? How does it plan to interact with the other three established levels. Who the hell is going to do this in each region? Why haven't these people stepped forward in each area and educated us rank and file or club leaders on what is missing in our regions and needs to happen in the future. Why haven't they done this work in the past as part of one of the three existing levels of RSA?

Respecfully
Mark

Mark,
I think you are making this sound much too complicated. North American Multihull Sailing Association was first formed 45 years ago to provide a communication link (newsletter) for all the different types of multihulls around the country and also to provide a handicapping system and some structure so those different classes would be able to race against each other. It has been dormant since 1985, when the handicapping was taken over by the Multihull Council and the NAMSA Newsletter had died.

In many parts of the country the only racing structure available to all the boats was the Hobie Class structure, which for years allowed non-Hobies to participate in an Open Class at their regattas. When the Hobie Class decided to close the door to non-Hobies, it was feared that many catamaran sailors would be left with no way to race and no way to put on regattas. It appeared that perhaps NAMSA was needed again to provide a structure similar to the Hobie Class structure, but for all the non-Hobies (and Hobies, too, of course) because NAMSA is an organization open to ALL multihulls.

Even when the “Open Class” was an option at Hobie regattas, it was not an ideal situation because there are a number of non-Hobie classes that would like to be able to race one-design when they have enough boats. This was not allowed at the Hobie regattas – only the Hobies were allowed to race one-design. (Mark, I know you have never been a fan of one-design racing, but a lot of people are, even if the classes are relatively small.)

In addition, for non-Hobies there has never been a structure to provide for large, regional championships. The Hobies have events like Midwinters East, Midwinters West, the Midamerica Championships, Eastern, Western, Midwest, etc., most of which did not even allow an open class for non-Hobies.

NAMSA will be able to organize and coordinate similar major events around the country, as well as a NAMSA North American Championship, that are open to ALL catamarans, and provide both Open Portsmouth Classes and one-design classes for those classes that can bring enough boats.

All of the classes are relatively small in numbers, so it just makes sense to have consolidated regattas that make it financially feasible for organizers and also provide events accessible to boats that might otherwise never see another of its kind. As a far-out hypothetical, let’s say there are a couple of G-Cats racing in Florida and a couple in New England and a couple in the Midwest and a couple on the West Coast. If they all show up at the NAMSA North Americans, voila, you have a G-Cat fleet. Then maybe the G-Cat people start getting excited about building their class again. Maybe Hans starts building boats again.

It’s great that your area has no problem with putting on regattas. Same with CRAM in Michigan and CRAW in Wisconsin and numerous other multiple-class organizations around the country. But there are big segments of the multihull population that do not have a multiple-class organization to turn to. Those areas need to form such fleets, and they could sure use the help and expertise of established groups like CRAM and CRAC and CRAW. And there has been no overall entity to unite all these separate multihull communities.

NAMSA, ultimately, should be the mother ship that bonds together all the multiple-class fleets (or multiple-fleet organizations) and makes possible the large, regional and North American Championships that would not be possible for most of the classes to do on their own. I don’t think NAMSA will add any bureaucratic levels to existing, successful organizations like yours. But I do think it can help areas that are not as fortunate. And its big contribution, as I see it, is in creating the larger, regional regattas and the North Americans. In order to do that, NAMSA needs all of its member organizations to work together to make those bigger events happen.

Having said all that to show how “simple” it is, I must add that I am not personally involved in the NAMSA organization (except for it having been my idea to revive it), so I do not really know the purpose of the North American NAMSA divisions we are discussing in this thread. Are they planning on having a system of “points” regattas as the Hobie Class used to have? I don’t know. Rick White or Mike Hill needs to explain it better.

If NAMSA establishes large-scale “regional” championships, it’s not like participants would be limited to the people in specific “regions.” They all would be open to anybody from anywhere in the United States, just as is the case with the Hobie regional and Continental events, which are all open to Hobie sailors from anywhere in the North American Region (and foreign sailors, as well).

Anyway, this is all pretty silly, because if you want to subscribe to Catamaran Sailor Magazine, a membership in NAMSA is, in effect, free. For a subscriber, $5 of your $20 subscription fee goes to NAMSA to get you a membership card and a vote in the organization. If you don’t want to belong to NAMSA but do want to get Catamaran Sailor, you just tell me you don’t want to be a member, and I keep that $5 for myself instead of sending it to NAMSA for your membership. If you do want to belong to NAMSA but don’t want Catamaran Sailor Magazine, tough, it’s still $20 and you still get the magazine along with your membership, like it or not.

When I started the magazine 10 years ago, I did it because I thought there was again a need again for a NAMSA Newsletter as a communication link for all the multihull sailors. I just called it “Catamaran Sailor” instead of “NAMSA Newsletter.” So, in spirit, NAMSA has been alive through my magazine for 10 years

Now that NAMSA has been incorporated and activated as an organization, having a membership and a vote makes it possible for you to vote on any policies that NAMSA proposes, or you can vote to have NAMSA not do anything at all. So what do you have to lose?

OK, Mark & Jamie, I will start a new thread on the subject of Regions. Please continue your debates on this thread and leave the Regional Discussion open to the subject on the other thread.
Thanks,
Rick

Hey Rick,

Mary, in her post "Re: NAMSA #38745 - 09/28/04 12:13 PM" asked me to drop it and I did. You haven't seen me post here lately, (until now).

Jamie,
I feel kind of insulted that he did not include me. Anyway, now we are free to bloviate about NAMSA all we want on this thread.

Mary, you never cease to impress me.

Bloviate - to speak or write verbosely and windily

I had to look that one up. We could "bloviate" about NAMSA, or, per your feeling kind of insulted, we could bloviate about Rick. It might be more entertaining. Got any dirt you want to share?

Nope, nothing to share -- I'm washing laundry right now.

Ok Mary Define the scope of the problem!

Have you surveyed the NAHCA regions and reported on how these Divisions have resolved the NAHCA mandate for their members. Its time for schedules to be created... decisions must have been made. For example, You published a letter in Catsailor that the Texas Division has told NAHCA … No Thanks for that kool aid! How many other Fleets or entire Divisions? How Big a problem is this turning out to be? MAYBE its only a problem in a handful of areas in the US. Perhaps the issue will be solved If some NAHCA Fleets/Divisions DO host Hobie only races… But their member clubs ALSO create open regattas to serve their other members? If a region is mostly Hobie and HAS no other racers…again not much of a problem… This is something that needs reporting on by you!

If NAHCA’s mandate does have a negative impact and sailors don’t have local races to attend… THEN we have an issue and can look for solutions.

If NAHCA's mandate does not generate any problems... can NAMSA go away?

I plan to take a deep breath and respond to the rest of your letter a bit later.

Take Care
Mark

When I started the magazine 10 years ago, I did it because I thought there was again a need again for a NAMSA Newsletter as a communication link for all the multihull sailors. I just called it “Catamaran Sailor” instead of “NAMSA Newsletter.” So, in spirit, NAMSA has been alive through my magazine for 10 years

YES…. your magazine pulls together news and letters and reporting from clubs around North America and serves the mission… "communication link for multihull sailors"! This was missing AND needed. The need for NAMSA divisions is the issue that I raise.




Actually, I take the time to make these arguments because there IS something to loose. (I personally choose not to support NAMSA but love the Magazine). What we have to loose is energy, focus and standing in the larger scheme of sailing organizations in the US. The last thing you need is a group of cat sailors who’s fundamental organizing principle is HEY WE ARE NOT NAHCA setting out to duplicate a bunch of "NAMSA" regional sailing authorities for half the catamaran racers in the US… While the other half of cat sailors are REorganizing in the "NAHCA" RSA to recreate the good old days … MEANWHILE, the adult sailing world has solved this issue 50 years ago (BACK in the good ol days) and organized all the sailing clubs into RSA as members of the US Sailing Association. I just don’t understand it. These organizations work for Opti's up to 70 footers! What is so unique about us... other then we don't play well together?.... Why don’t the people who want to form a NEW RSA…. Take over as US Sailing Area reps. Why don’t they join their Regional Sailing Authority and use those resources to do something.

Take Care
Mark

Geez, Mark, nobody knows the scope of the problem yet, and I'm not going to call 150-some-odd Hobie fleets to ask what they plan to do in 2005.

As far as losing "energy, focus and standing in the larger scheme of sailing organizations in the US," I don't even know what that means.

You raise an interesting point about RSA's. The Regional Sailing Associations under US Sailing consist of groups of affiliated yacht clubs within a given area. Most beach-cat sailors, of course, do not belong to yacht clubs. It never occurred to me that a beach-cat fleet could join an RSA. If it is possible to join, that is a good idea. Although, I don't know what it costs. I will ask the commodore of CABB if he has ever asked whether our fleet can join BBYRA (Biscayne Bay Yacht Racing Association).

Hi Mary



Ok... Good. so we don't have a problem yet! NAMSA can slow down and let things settle out.

I agree... I don't know how big a problem will emerge for 2005.
I have a guess though... I predict that it won't turn out to be that big of a deal... I believe that clubs want sailors to participate and I think most will choose to give away the prefix Hobie as in Hobie XXX regatta and become the XXX regatta and keep the non Hobie sailors participating.

Why don't you contact the Hobie Division chair people or NAHCA and ask them for an update? It should not be a secret.

With respect to energy, focus, standing etc.
Standing: Remember, the sailors that run CBYRA, and do the vast majority of work at US Sailing are volunteers as well. So, When you approach them for assistance and announce... I represent, NAHCA, or NAMSA, they don't know what that means, they don't care and they wonder... Sheesh.. why don't they just join up and play ball like EVERY OTHER CLASS OR CLUB!

Energy, Well lets count. 10 or so US Sailing region people + 10 NAHCA people + 10 NAMSA people amounts to 30 people doing the SAME THING.... (AND MOST of this work never actually puts a regatta on the water) I am reminded of the joke... how many cat sailors does it take to screw in a light bulb???

Focus: Hmm... How in the world can you build a consensus around a common focus with 3 separate groups attempting to speak for cat sailors ?

Take Care
Mark

Mark, I just noticed the title of your post, suggesting NAMSA could cause multihulls to lose "Respect."

In my humble opinion, respect is something the multihulls have not had in the mainstream sailing community precisely because of the fact that we are not organized. The monohull mainstream sees us as a bunch of maverick nomad tribes wandering from beach to beach. They lump all the beach cats together. They do not recognize us as having distinct classes the way they do with the monohull classes. Everything with two hulls is just categorized as "Multihull." You don't see US Sailing referring to "Monohulls" as though everything with one hull is all one thing.

We are treated like a minority group. When Sailing World does a survey to find out how many racing boats there are of different types, beach cats should probably be included in the "dinghy" category, but they are not.

In the ideal world (as it was for us back in the 1960's), multihulls would have their fleets within yacht clubs and do their fleet racing at the yacht clubs and maybe even be able to race at other clubs within their RSA, and be affiliated with other fleets of their kind at other yacht clubs around the country, and fleets would be able to host major events at their own yacht clubs, complete with restaurant, snack bar, and swimming pool.

But that is not the way it is today, and I don't see it happening in the foreseeable future (except for maybe A-Class fleets and Tornado fleets).

So most of us continue to be nomads, outside the mainstream of sailing.

To gain respect and recognition and stature and influence with US Sailing, we need to get organized under a body like NAMSA, and we need to do it in the same type of format as all the other bodies that are members of US Sailing.

NAMSA is not about providing another layer of bureaucracy. It is about uniting all the multihulls so we can become a part of mainstream sailing and earn respect within US Sailing.

It is about NAMSA being able to help the Multihull Council, because if NAMSA has a lot of members, those members can be polled on what multihull sailors want and need. They can be surveyed to find out the current demographics of multihull sailors, ages, kids, etc., and what kinds of events they like, what kinds of boats they are gravitating to (formula classes, smaller, single-hander beach cats or bigger cruiser-racer multihulls, etc.). All this information will be very helpful to the Multihull Council in representing us within US Sailing.

It is a cliche, but it is usually true: united we stand, divided we fall.

P.S. I should add that these are all just my personal opinions about what NAMSA should be about, since I am not involved with the organization of NAMSA and have never been privy to anything the officers and committee people are doing (except what they put in my magazine on the NAMSA News page).

The reason I am not involved in NAMSA is because if I don't like what they are doing, I want Catamaran Sailor Magazine to be free to criticize them and I don't want any suggestion of conflict of interest.

Sorry, Mark, for some reason I did not see your post until after I had posted mine. But that's okay, because I think you have actually made my case for the need for NAMSA.

HI Mary

I don't see how I make your case.



OK... WHO ELSE in sailing has an organization like NAMSA or for that matter NAHCA (a collection of classes)?

Yacht Clubs and individuals join US Sailing. That is the membership.... Not NAHCA or NAMSA,

The solution is to address local needs, scheduling coordination, PR, etc etc by having your local Cat club join the RSA just like the huge yacht club down the street. When you play by the rules that everyone else is using you are in the game... When you want to parnter with other sailors to make something happen locally... you might join their organization in order to get to know each other. When you form your own organization and start a different game ... don't expect anyone to pay any attention to you !...

National issues that require input to US Sailing or work sanctioned by US Sailing can be led by your US Sailing rep and any teams they put together from club members in the area.

I don't believe you have made your case for additional representation and organizations like NAMSA.

Take Care
Mark

Below are the by-laws of US Sailing about voting and non-voting members. Especially note 1.(a)(v) below relating specifically to multihulls.

You ask: "OK... WHO ELSE in sailing has an organization like NAMSA or for that matter NAHCA (a collection of classes)?" You added: "Yacht Clubs and individuals join US Sailing. That is the membership.... Not NAHCA or NAMSA."

As you can see from the following, ONLY regional and national organizations (like NAHCA and NAMSA)and class associations and offshore and cruising associations have a vote within US Sailing. And there are many such associations.

Yacht clubs and individuals are NOT voting members.

NAMSA is doing precisely what is provided for in US Sailing's rules so that we CAN start working within the US Sailing system and provide another vote on behalf of things that will benefit multihull sailors.

What fleets do to survive and thrive at the local level is entirely up to them -- different things work in different areas. But I do notice in 1.(a)(i) below that RSA's are to be made up of yacht clubs, and it does not make any provision for fleets to join.
----------------------------
(From the US Sailing By-laws)
ARTICLE THREE—MEMBERSHIP
1. Membership in this Association shall consist of:
(a) Voting members represented by delegates hereinafter described and composed of:
(i) Sailing associations (sometimes titled yacht racing unions, yachting associations, yacht racing associations or sailing associations) made up of yacht clubs, which by their application for and election to membership in
the Association accept the responsibility to carry out, in their respective areas, the purposes for which the Association was organized;
(ii) Sailor-Athlete Advisory Council delegates who are Sailor-Athletes (as defined in Article 15 of these Bylaws).
(iii) Class associations composed of one-design classes organized through fleet and/or districts as one-design, restricted, open or rated classes;
(iv) Offshore cruising/racing associations organized through clubs, fleets or classes for the conduct of racing locally, regionally or nationally on a level, handicap or rated basis.
(v) Multihull sailing associations organized through associations, clubs, fleets or classes for the conduct of racing locally, regionally or nationally.
(vi) Inter-Collegiate Sailing Association (ICSA).
(vii) United States Windsurfing Association.
(viii) Community Sailing organizations.

(b) Nonvoting members composed of:
(i) Affiliated associations which conduct college, school, Sea Explorer, Sea Scouts, armed forces and similar sailing programs;
(ii) Yacht clubs which are members of a member sailing association;
(iii) Fleets or stations which belong to a member class association or offshore cruising/racing association;
(iv) Individuals or families who are interested in sail racing;
(v) Other sailing organizations, including yacht clubs, which are not members of a member sailing association and fleets or stations which are not members of a member class association or member offshore cruising/racing association;
(vi) Corporations wishing to support the work of the ssociation.

(c) Such other categories as may be established by the Board of Directors.

The difference I see between NAMSA and US Sailing Multihull Council is that NAMSA is in total control of their organization. NAMSA sets the fees and disperses the money as it see's fit. We pay $40 dollars a year to US Sailing and as far as I can tell $0 is spent in the Multihull sailing council. Everything that we do through US Sailing is self supported by the particular activity. Take Alter Cup: We have the Hoyt-Jolley fund which supports the Alter Cup and enables us to get boats and put on the event. The competitors also pay quite a bit to enter the Alter Cup to cover regatta costs. If you want a Judge from US Sailing you have to cover his costs and any reimbersement. If you want to become a Judge you need to pay for the courses.

So my point is that if we run NAMSA separately but in concert with US Sailing we can help fund youth events and Alter Cups and qualifiers. NAMSA could provide things like scales to National events or support national events by helping to supply (and pay for US Sailing judges).

Right now because NAMSA is in it's infancy it's a little early to expect much out of the organization yet. But I can see it building and working with US Sailing.

One of the reasons I drew the Regions up just like US Sailing is that I thought it would help us to support the US Sailing Council easier.

Just my thoughts,
Mike Hill
Tiger #1520