N6.0 downwind w/spin technique?

Transposing from another post so more people can chime in here.

This past weekend, 1st time on a 6.0 in a race. Did great upwind in lighter conditions, no more than 5 knots consistently. Up against F18's an I20 and a Supercat 20. Downwind everyone, even the non-spin supercat would kill us.

Here's the conundrum:
1) Our chute isn't the "NE" chute thats 351 sqft. Its bigger and fuller, about 400sqft. We couldn't get enough luff tension to heat up as high as the I20, or get any kind of boatspeed downwind, it felt choked off when heading down. There was no groove to speak of in between where we could get moving.
2) I'm still novice at spinnaker trimming. I've read all thats available on teh intarnet about flying the chute. I have hordes of experience flying syms on monohulls.

Dave suggested that we need 15-20 to really let the 6.0 stretch its legs. Are we this screwed when it comes to light air?

Thanks in advance!
-Tad "Port tacker" Pecorak

Hi Tad.

I dont know about the N6.0, but spi luff tension is critical on the Tornado. I would guess that luff tension is very important on the N6.0 as well.
With a slack luff, you would have to head up even higher than the I20 before you can start driving off..
If the luff (and foot/leech) is to long for the boat, you would probably be better off with a spi. designed for the boat (is your spi. designed for the N6.0?).

They say it is, but its not the generally "accepted class spinnaker." I put that in quotes because there really is no class spin, but rather the "New England" cut spinnaker that is generally used (I think).

First do a cheap dumb test. In no wind hoist it, sheet in tight and make sure you can pull the luff tight with a couple of inchs left in you hoist and foot. If you can't, you need to look at rerigging the boat.

I am not familiar with the 400 sq ft spin, I am familiar with the 450 Smythe chutes. The 450 is a near masthead chute The big chutes on the 6.0 are great for distance races in light air.

We learned several years ago that the big chutes do not work well in bouy races. They don't "point" high enough. Most people use Tornado, I20, or NE (Smythe 350) chutes. The Tornado and I20 are pure bouy chutes. The NE (Smythe 350) is a compromise. It works well over a wider range of wind angles than the bouy chutes.

By the way I still have a 350 I would like to find a good home for.

FYI for Rolf. These chutes are huge. The 350 would require you to sheet from the rear crossbeam on the Tornado. The 450 would require a masthead hoist, rear crossbeam sheeting, a longer pole and you steer with the chute. All the rudders do is make noise.

Carl,

This is not a masthead, but it is just gigantic. Its an E/P sail. I know for a fact that there is quite a bit of slack in the luff when its hoisted. Pole can't go much lower though, its already at deck level. We were going to go with bridle wire extenders to raise the end of the pole, but that would just make this luff problem worse.

Carl: Sounds like the first kites they tested for the "Tornado Sport", giant kites sheeted to the rear beam. I think they tested them on Lake Garda, and it was really scary to race with them as they had no view to leeward..

I wonder what kind of mast rake would be needed to have a tolerable lee helm with these kites tough

Tad: Is your halyard block at the right position, and is it an option to raise it? (without compromising the mast!) Otherwise, perhaps it's time to go shopping..

We are shopping for a 350 chute right now actually, have one in mind. The chute is sheeted to the rear block currently. And there is NO view to leward with this one. I'll get a pic of it here shortly.

I have a 6.0na with an I20 chute and I found that the sheeting angle has to be correct or else the kite won't work properly. Once I moved the blocks everything worked very well.
Dave

I felt as if the chute was being choked off a lot having it sheeted to the rear beam. Should we try moving it towards the front a bit to open up the slot?

That was a big chute, but looked entirely diffrent from the ones used in the Tybee 500. Look at the pix of Rick Bliss' boat to notice the diffrence. You can adjust luff tension with mast rake if there is no other option , but then you compromise steerage and helm. I like being able to adjust my luff tension on the F18 using a seperate tack and halyard. I couldnt do that on the I20, and I think that will make a big diffrence when I figure out how to sail this F18.

David Mosley

dave,

As it stands, we can't use the big chute in the tybee, thats one of the reasons we're trying to sell it off and get a pair of 350 chutes.

We're going to keep tramp bag launching it for the distance races, but for around the buoys, we got killed on our spinnaker sets and takedowns using the bag launch with separate tack/halyards.

Send some pics. Its hard to tell without seeing it.

Here's a pic of the spin, sorry it doesn't reach the top of the halyard. 330k, modems beware.
http://www.velocitysailing.com/images/bigspin.jpg

Thanks.

Tad,
What is the height of the mast hoist? I know when I bought my 6.0 it came with an E/P spin that was said to be the 'original 6.0 class spin' (1994 era) that never took off in popularity. i got into the class about the same time the NE class spin was introduced and bought one of the frist of this generation and never went back. After sailing the two sails it was a totally diferent ball game.
The hoist height question is because the spin hoist tang installed originally was a foot lower than the one that Smyth designed the NE class spin to. I think your boat is from the same era as mine was, and therefore am wondering if you will need to raise your hoist another foot for at least the new sail if not this one too.
One note, most of the guys here in New England have switched to a bail and cheek block system similar to the I20 to equilize loads during full rotation. If you are switching the height of your hoist, I would suggest looking into this.
Hope this helps (Sorry, i can't remember the specs on the hoist heights off the top of my head and I no longer have the boat to measure.)
Chris
www.acceleratedchaos.com

Thanks Chris,

We'll keep that in mind.

(I got the promo stuff finished btw, I'll shoot a copy to you, thanks for the advice on all that)

And I might add that as a general rule, hoist the chute and grasp the luff with your fist. You should be able to turn your fist from verticle to horizontal (90 degees) where the luff is too tight to allow you to turn your hand any further. A tighter luff allows you to sail deeper downwind (by helping to rotate the spinnaker around into the wind) - a softer luff lets the sail fall away from the wind which means you have to sail higher angles.

Tad,

We just added a spin this past spring to our 6.0. Its been great and at the same time frustrating. Our spin is in that 400 – 425 range, pic attached. Here are its dimensions:

Luff: 30-9½”; Foot: 19-½”; Leach: 25-8”; Mid Girth: 15’

NE Spin (350 sq ft):
Luff Length 32’-0”
Leach Length 26’-8 1/2”
Foot Length 17’-3 1/2”
Mid-Girth Width 13’-10”
Mid-Girth Width (minimum) 13’-4”

We set up our halyard hoist 28’ from the bottom of the mast. It looks like a masthead but it is not. Our pole is 14’ long and our mast rake is moderate, don’t have a specific measurement. It’s not raked all the way back. Our bow foil is at the standard height.

How do you know that you don’t have enough luff tension?
I have learned from some other sailors in our club and from a little experience now that usually we were sailing the spin with too much luff tension, especially, in the 0-5 and even in the 5-10 range. In 0-5 let off the tack line a foot. If you have a one-halyard/tack line like we have, then let off the halyard a foot. Watch the shape of the luff, it will be come flatter, and you will be able to head higher. One afternoon with a local sail maker on board that was checking out the shape the new main and jib he made for us, I asked him about spin luff tension. I got a clinic about spin luff tension and trimming. Wind was about 6-8 and he let off the halyard/tack line about 3’. That spin became very flat. The more luff tension the rounder the entry. Let it off; let it take a natural shape.

Heading as high as the I-20s? I think you find this difficult to do, we have. We just sail slightly deeper. We combine crew weight and heading to get the hull flying and then just sail our own race.

Spin trim? Just like on the mono-hull with symmetrical spins, sail the curl. However, unlike on the monohull, in order to get the pole in the right position the heading of the boat has to change. I have found the tell tails are only good for the helm to know when the chute is way over trimmed or the boat needs to head up. On 5 and above nights, if the spin is over trimmed, our boat won‘t head up, way too much lee-helm. It has often been heard on our little ship “easy that GDT so I can head up!” It has become a little bit better by leaving the main traveler centered and only easing the main sheet a foot or two.

We were gaining on almost all of the non-spin boats only to loss it back getting the GDT back on board. Snuff has helped greatly with this. However, the bow foil causes some snagging.

Gotta go,

After some experimentation yesterday, it appears that the sheeting position is to blame. Trey sheeted it by hand from "about the shrouds" and he said it was instantaneous acceleration.

We'll have to do some more tweaking, but moving the sheeting blocks forward will definitely happen this week.

As far as snuffers for the 6.0, the bridle assembly presents a tricky situation. if the hoop is at the end of the pole, or maybe 3/4ths up the pole, is that enough room to keep clear of all the snaggy bits of the bridle?

I have my hoop a few inches in front of the foil with no problems. Once in a while the sheets get caught on my jib furler, or the ends of the foil where the wire connects, but I don't think that this has anything to do with where the hoop is..The sheets never give me a problem snuffing, just jybing.

Dave

thanks for the help dave.