A2 Price

I was given a price on the A2.

MSRP FOB factory

Without sails $19,878
With Sails $21,170

For comparison original press release stated $15,500 without sails

I hope this is wrong. Ignoring currancy exchange rates and looking at home market prices this makes it one of the most expensive A's around

I have started the process of buying a Marstrom.

Congratulations Carl! I had a go on a Marstrom A earlier this year and they are delighful!

Chris.

I dunno where I read it, but those figures are pretty acurate. It is a spendy cat.

BTW also the Marstrom A class does not come cheap at EUR 14,467 without sail and freight ex factory (i.e. USD 18,865). Add main, battens, beach dolley, covers, packaging, freight from Sweden etc., in all let say USD 3,000, and you have a total close to USD 22K.
The Marstrom is indeed the best built A class design, but for sure not the fastest (it did not win anything to far). Perhaps you can get a better value for money on the market!

Lets summarize :

A2
Without sails $19,878 (=15409 euro even at todays RIDICULOUS exchange rate of 1.29 US to 1 Euro)
With Sails $21,170 (=16410 euro even at todays RIDICULOUS exchange rate of 1.29 US to 1 Euro)

Marstrom EUR 14,467 no sail, no shipping = 18662 Us$
Marstrom Eur 16.000 with sail = 20640 US$

Won't you feel really pissed on the race course when having paid this much and (for example) 12.000 US$ nacra F18's are running you done like you are a wounded animal ? (see PHRF ratings) Not to mention that the F18's have a bigger and better race cirquit going on. Come to think of it how do the I-17R boats (11.500 US$ ?) with spi compare to the A's ? For halve the price you can forgive this boat for being just tad slower.

A-cat may be the greatest singlehander boats on earth (although some opinions are swinging towards the spi singlehanders now) but I won't pay between 16.000 and 17.000 Euro's to have a stripped down catamaran. There is hardly anything on it. Where does the money go too ? Hell, I won't pay that amount for an F16 and I'm obviously biased there. Even if I do get a whole lot more hardware and 2 extra sails for it.

I hope the A-cat sailors forgive me for this rant but the prices did make me grasp for air.

Wouter

Where does the money go in an A-cat vs. an F18? for fun, let's see....equipment wise, you loose the jib (-$400), loose the spinnaker (-$800), and gain a carbon mast (+$1200?). So we'll call that even. Price new A-cat $22,000....price new F18 $13,500. Difference $8,500. What you're gaining is a lack of 231 lbs from the platform...soooo you're paying about $37 / lb to go to the lighter a-cat. I'm very pleased with my F18 but considering how easy they are to manuever on land, I still dream about owning a lightweight a-cat one day.

We also need to consider that the production volume is probably pretty low for the a-cat and it uses pricier raw materials to construct. Payback for the tooling is harder to gain back on low volume production.

Take that idea further - lose all the controls for jib (self tacker, track, blocks, sheet, halyard, cleats, etc.) and the spin (again, blocks, sheet, halyard, extra hound, bail, pole, snuffer, tack, cleat). But, add a whole lot more carbon and new fabrication equipment, maybe new staff who work with carbon so you don't have to pay for the glass guy's learning curve... don't they set up in some sort of big oven?

Like the drug companies always say - the SECOND pill they make costs $3... the FIRST one costs $3,000,000.

Who can throw the first rock? I can't - the A Class looks good, but it'll be a used boat for me.

It'd make a cool Alter Cup boat, though, eh?

That's about right I can buy a new Marstrom with everything for about the price of an A2 with sail is in Ca. That is with an exchange rate of 1.29. The all time high is 1.30. If the rate drops to a more nominal 1.05, the price drops to $18K That is why I think the A2 is too high.

As far as speed, due to crew problems, I borrowed my wife's Wave for 3 races last year. This will be a BIG step up

You have to wonder if the price of the A2 is the result of the current exchange rate. There is no domestic competition. Maybe the price will come down if the exchange rate becomes more favorable.

But at 22k a pop, I'd be very surprised to see them on the beach at the AC, espically when they can't make the F18's fast enough.

Ding

The real question to ask right now is why are certain people who have the A2 getting rid of them in favor of the Bimare Javelin XJ?

Cost may not be the real hidden factor.

IMO, BC

F18 are not cheap in Europe.
For a new Hobie Tiger (without the Ullman main which won the 2004 Worlds) you have to pay at least EUR 15,000 if you go for all the racing options.
The same for a Nacra F18 from Jan de Boer. Used 2004 boats are offered from EUR 13,500 to EUR 14,500. Strange thing with the current RIDICULOUS USD/EUR exchange rate!
For a new Cirrus you have to be ready to invest EUR 16,500 and even EUR 17,500 for a Capricorn.
As you see if boatyards can make fat profits.....

>>The same for a Nacra F18 from Jan de Boer. Used 2004 boats are offered from EUR 13,500 to EUR 14,500. Strange thing with the current RIDICULOUS USD/EUR exchange rate!


You can get them new for less than that. A while back they even said on their weibsite that you could get 15 % discount if you didn't trade in your old boat. 14500 * 85 % = 12325 Euro's.

Cirrus is expensive that is true and so is the Capricorn.

But nevertheless we take away from this that the ready to sail A2 including TAX (19 % overhere)and shipping (16410 + 2000 + 1000 = 19500 Euro's) is still more expensive than all heavily upgraded and competitive F18's in Europe. And afterall there is a whole lot more hardware and manhours needed to produce an F18.

We should not forget that the European F18 price include 19 % VAT Tax. Someting I think is only 0-8% in the US depending on the state.

Wouter

Or no tax at all!!!!! Wow, I didn't think I would ever be able to say something like that! I bought mine free of tax (legally too).

An A2 Platform in Australia is nearly A$28,000. You then have to add a rig for about 7K and trailer and all the rest.

We will be lucky to see any of them here.

Most guys stick to the Flyer here.

Carl,

Do you believe you got a competitive price? I am not convinced KO shoots the best deals. Their pricing is not set to attract sailors to the cat market. They want sailors to sail Vanguards and J-boats. Thus new catamaran sales by KO are close to non-existent. Trying to negotiate a deal over this forum is not appropriate. Contact the other dealers and get the real market price.

By the way a Super Cat 22 could be had for that money.

Not sure that Carl is going through KO - but even so - I would go talk to them when buying a cat - they seem really keen to sell some performance cats in Texas and understand they'll have to be flexible on pricing.

Chris.

Mark

KO offered me a very good deal.

Where did you get this price? I can't get any of the dealers to give my a price or any sort of delivery date. You can get a new Flyer delivered for $18,000+/-. I can't see many of these things selling if the price tag is this high.....

You are wrong!
For a new AUS Flyer delivered to the US the bill is (at least)USD21,000.
Call Tracie Oliver for confirmation!

Tracy is where I got the price. Further Jim Boyer quoted me virtually the same cost personally, when he visited us at West River. I included the +/- to account for the exchange rate fluctuation. Eitherway, the A2 at 21K+ is not going to work. In addition, check the A-class website, you can get a 2004 Marstrom (used 3 times by Goran) for $15,500 delivered.

Guys,

So what would you pay for a A Cat? Assuming its autoclaved and as stong as a Marstrom and has a A2 style hull - how much would you be willing to pay?

Bill

I think that 15-18K, for the platform and mast is about right. I'd still love to know where the quote for 21K came from.

Personaly,
I think 20 K is entirely reasonable to pay for an A cat. If you don't want to pay that much feel free to pay much less initialy and buy into a different class.
I think a more important question is what are the yearly costs of owning an A cat. From my experiance, owning a Nacra 6.0 was much more expensive per year to maintain in good shape and race then my A cat. In fact this last year was the cheapest year of sailing I have ever done( except for my old dart 18) on a per day of sailing basis.

What I would suggest is that you sail an A class Catamaran. If after sailing one, you are willing to go back to your old boat, don't buy one.

Personaly, I am done with overweight, poorly built, multihulls mass produced with bad steering and cheep fittings.

Think Ice

Eric Anderson
A Class US 28
DN Iceyacht 5193

Another thing to keep in mind...depreciation. Well made boats with long competitive lives will hold their values better. I'm sure the better made Acats keep their edige for a long time...but of course the nature of this game is to be innovative and there is a development cycle issue that needs to be factored in. Same will be true for the F18 though.

Mike.

Don't totally agree with this.

Yes Marstrom's are well made and so is the Nacra F18. But, is the old Inter 18 holding it's value well. Answer is NO. Simply the Inter 18 is no longer a competitive boat (as with older Tigers as another example) and so they have lost value quickly - still a fine boat. If (and I mean if) another builder (or Goran) comes up with a new development for the A class, his current boats will no longer hold their value.

This is the price you have to pay by being part of a development class, or restricted development class or formula based rule - Things will change and cash will have to be spent.

I'm damn glad I bought my used A Cat when I did. Talk about appreciation!! Because of the cost of new boats there is a scarcity of used boats coming available and they are bringing good money. The biggest gripe I hear about the A2 is the inability to get info about the boat. Sad marketing.

Cris,

What was up with your deal on the Hobie Tiger? You went out of town. Unless it was a bankrupcy or business liquidation KO should of been able to match the deal you got. Sales and Use tax might have been a motivating factor but you need to register the boat in the state and pay the appropriate Use Tax at that time.

Interesting compliance issue I read in a state tax journal was how the Texas Comptroller office is reviewing out of state boat purchaser's declared purchase prices against a data base. If the value is out of line then the transaction is further reviewed.

"In addition, check the A-class website, you can get a 2004 Marstrom (used 3 times by Goran) for $15,500 delivered."
(with new sail and dolly)

Both of Goran's boats are now sold

This IS kind of what I was referring to...the development cycle in formula classes will cause accelerated depreciation as technology advances. But if things are relatively stable for awhile, the better made boats will hold their values longer than the low quality jobs. For Tornado class, the current competitive life of a Marstrom is 7+ years. In the past, polyester-based Tboats could go 2-4 years tops at the high end of the fleet. A 10 year old Marstom Tboat will sell for roughly half it's original price. Can the same be said for 10 year old Hobie 18's, NA 6.0's, I20's, Acats ,or (in the future) F18's?

Without meaning to hijack this thread, and completely off-topic!

What was the price for a Marstrøm T in 1994?
The market in europe suffers a lack for 90's Marstrøm T's these days. I'm trying to source a 90's Marstrøm T for some friends, wanting to race one-design, but I can't find any at a reasonable price