H16, Twixxy or Wave for beginner.

Hi guys, sorry you probably get these questions all the time but I need some feedback.
I'm a total beginner and I'd like to get started in Cat sailing.

First off, I live in Finland, Scandinavia, and the only brand we have available here is the Hobie Cat.
Secondly, Cats are extremely expencive here and there are virtually no second hand marked.
There are a few old Hobie 16 out there, but they are few and far between.
New prices i US $:
Wave $7000:-
Twixxy $8200:-
H16 classic $12500:-

My only realistic choíces would be a new "Wave" or "Twixxy" or a second hand "16"

I'm 183cm/95kg (6'/200lbs?) and plan to sail 50/50 with my girlfriend and my friend, hardly ever solo I guess.
(Girlfriend is ~110lbs and my friend is my size, ~200lbs)

Which boat should I choose for good speed and flexibility and why?
(I have been seriously interested in the Wave but it looks so simple and "toyish". With the prices over here I'd really like to get a boat to grow with, one that doesn't feel slow and boring after the first summer. Is the Twixxy next step up from Wave? It looks a bit longer with some more features...perhaps a good choice)

www.hobiecat.net have all the models available in Europe

There is an 'OK' secondhand market in Sweden and Denmark, and a large on in Germany. If money is of importance, you can probably find a good deal there.

E.g: http://www.hobiecat.nu/forum/kopsaljhyr.asp for Hobies in Sweden.

Have you 'locked on' to Hobies, or are you open to other designs as well?
If I was to buy a boat today, I would have looked hard at the F16's, or F18's.

I came into sailing via the Tornado route. Found and bought an old Tornado for a song, fixed it up and learnt to sail _and_ repair boats with it. There has been some Tornado action in Finland, so you could probably find an old Tornado rotting away under the snow at the larger sailing clubs.. If you want to sail instead of fixing old boats, buy something better

Hello Norway!
Well, I've done some searches on Google, buy/sell sites and boatshops and have found two cats for sale in Finland.
One H16 -86 (add was posted in February so it's probably sold already) and one Wave (asking 4000€ for a -98!?! ).

I'm not at all locked on to Hobies but I thought it would be a good choice since it seem to be the only boat the shop here offer (1 cat-shop in the whole country). I figured I easily could get spare parts and support.

Serously, at your weight I would not go for any 15 fot boat or less (meaning waves, twixxies, dragoons, N4.5 etc). You simply enjoy yourself at 95 + 50 = 145 kg on it. At least go for 16 footer or larger. Hobie 16 seem a good choice for yourelf and girlfriend. However two blokes of 95 kg = total 180 kg is alot for it. She will handle it in the recreational sense.

One of the best advices I would give you is to look for secondhand boats in Germany and the Netherlands. You can got good deals for 1000 Euro's on 16 and 18 cats here. The additional cost of driving up here and pick it up will always be way cheaper than anything else.

If you are looking at buying new than there are other interesting options for 12.500.

Go here for a good secondhand offer site for Dutch catamarans:

http://www.marktplaats.nl/markt/watersport/catamarans.htm

Take special note of the following models

Hobie 16 Le race 2750 Euro

Nacra 5.5 1950 Euro

Nacra 5.7 3950 Euro (excellent boat for your use, I would really consider this one)

Dart hawk 5.5 (formula 18) 4700 Euro

Nacra 5.5 € 1.750,00

Hobie 16 € 650,00

Prindle 19 € 1.000,00

Hobie 18 LE € 1.950,00

Nacra 5.7 bouwj."86 € 2.250,00

Catamaran Prindel 16 € 1.000,00

Etc

Wouter

Spare part is not a problem, if the producing company is still in business. You can always order parts via the internet, and have them delivered, or make your own. This site (catsailor.com) has a nice inventory of parts and equipment. There are several other stores as well, inside the EU (saves you some tax, sometimes I wish Norway also was an EU member..).

You will find that this forum, and the class e-mail lists gives the best support there is. Unless you happen to live really close to the shop, and the shop owners are active cat-sailors themself.

If there are any catsailors around where you live, buying the same boat as they have might be nice. It's funny how quickly the lust for some racing comes over you, and then having similar boats is nice..


Otherwise, I think Wouter just came with some good advice!

Wouter: I'm sure you mean "drive _down_ to the Netherlands" ;-) Finland was quite a bit north of you, the last time I checked the map (ahh, semantics..)

Thanks guys.
The more info I read on the Internet the more I like the Hobie 16.
It seem to be a much liked classic with a proven design and just big enough for my needs.

I will look over my finances (=selling my motorboat) and then check out what's available.
I can go to Sweden to buy a second hand cat, but I'm not driving down to Holland to trailer a boat home.

If I can save enough and get good money from my current boat I might even buy a new H16.
Since there's not many used boats around I figure it'll be easy to sell it if I wish to do so.

...And no, unfortunately there are no racing around here (that I know of). In fact I have never seen a cat when I've been out boating/fishing. Only other motorboats and loads of "normal" sailingboats.

Well, someone's gotta start

Unless you're racing one-design, I don't see the point in buying a H16. It was an OK design in the '60s, but is an extremely poor design compared to any other design from '80 onward. My first boat was a H16 because I could find them cheap, but I wouldn't buy another one.

Your girlfriend won't like pitchpoling in those cold waters, and this is just about what the H16 does best.

Hi,

You need to think longer term when buying a cat as a beginner, especially where you have limited choice. I've been through 4 boats in 4 seasons as I have developed. It was half an hour on a Hobie Wave on a Jamaican beach that got me started. It took about that long to outgrow it!

I would take Wouter's and everyone else's advice. Avoid the Hobie 16 - they are 'challenging' and not renowned for stability. Buy a seconhand Nacra 5.5 / 5.8 / 6.0 and you'll get a solid boat that will last forever, be stable and safe, but have the potential to go very quickly in moderate winds. You can even retro-fit spinnaker kits to these for more fun.

Cheers
Simon

Thanks for the input guys but the reality around here is that there's a very limited selection.
You Americans have a wider range of cats available.

As I said, I have never even seen a cat out in the water around here and I do alot of motorboating and fishing in the archipelago waters.
In midle Europe you can find more cats but here in Scandinavia they are not that common and I think the only brand available is Hobie.
(One cat dealer in the whole country as I understand it and they sell Hobie)
Perhaps there's a few Tornados as earlier suggested, but I doubt that anyone will know what I talk about if I mention Prindle or Nacra.

I'd think my best chances of ever getting a reasonably cheap cat is to find a used Hobie 16 or buy a new Wave.

Try looking around for a Hobie 18.., totally different boat than the H16 and is very stable. Never pitchpoled one in 15 years of sailing them.
As posted before me, the H16 is not very forgiving.., known as one of the only boats that will capsize in every direction.
Great cult boat.., much like the Sunfish.., and a great class of boats. But I would certainly not sail one in cold water. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Rick

Hi.
Try these sites out as well:
www.hobiecat.dk, (privates selling) select the buttom at the very left just of the black zone (Køb, Salg & Bytte)
or a German store.
http://www.sportmohr.de/index.php?menu=1&mp=Gebrauchtboote&kauf=an

Hi T55 again
Now read the whole tread. Thought I might give you the chance to read about the Hobie 17. Have had mine for 5 years. Great fun. Built for singlehanded but carries easily 2 persons, even in light wind.
On the contratry to HC16, the HC17 is very forgiving. Lots of volume in the front, and wings when the wind is really good.
Check these links:
http://www.nahca.org/hobies/hobie17_specifications.htm#Top
http://www.nahca.org/hobies/hobie17_linelengths.htm

Even though the HC17 is out of production it is absolutely no problem getting new original spareparts, ask Rick

I have to defend the Hobie 16 a bit here, since probably nobody else will on this particular forum.

We have been putting on race-training seminars since 1989. When the wind picks up on the water and all the other boats head for the beach, the 16's traditionally are the only ones still out there, having a blast in the big wind.

Hobie Alter Jr. always said the Hobie 16 was his favorite boat because he was able to stay relatively dry -- the raised platform kept him higher off the water.

I think a properly sailed and rigged Hobie 16 is no more likely to pitchpole than any other boat; the accent here is on "properly sailed and rigged."

A Hobie 16 is definitely less likely to pitchpole when landing on a beach, because it is designed for beach landings, unlike the modern catamarans with their sharp, plumb bows that can dig into the sand instead of sliding up onto it.

The Hobie 16 is the boat that was used exclusively in the Worrell 1000 during the race's early years when the sailors went non-stop, day and night, up the coast, coming in to checkpoints along the way for a quick change of crew. It was able to do that because of its unique design to handle surf and sand.

So it is wrong to call it a poor design. It is a great design when used for what it was designed for.

That's why there are different boats for different folks, depending on your needs and how you use that boat.

Hobie 17 for 145-180 kg doublehanded crews ? Are you serious ?

Lots of volume in the front ?

One can say alot of things about the Hobie 17 but this is really pushing the limit a bit.

Never mind that mast base boom that your crew is about to get to know more intimately with each tack. It is good for your limbo dance practice I'll admit to that.

Sorry, I guess I'll now be getting flamed by various sailors and branded a Hobie hater but advising the H17 for the stated use is just beyond belief. And YES, I've sailed the Hobie 17. It was designed as a singlehander and it is just that.

Wouter

Hi Wouter
Sorry if you think I give the wrong impression on the HC17. I wrote about my experience sailling it.
Concering the weight. According to the specs at http://www.nahca.org/hobies/hobie17_specifications.htm#Top the max load of the wings are 350 lbs.= 158 kg, which could be the weight of 2 persons. I admit: It is not stated anywere that it is intended to be doublehanded!

Concerning the volume: It was compared to the HC16, which was mentioned alot in the tread prior to my input. Sorry for not stating that clearly

And yes I have sailed it doublehanded,- with my wife being pregnant in 3rd month.

Finally I appreciate the different inputs. That's what make this site so great.

Well, I've done it already now, sought the wrath of the Hobie sailors so I might as well spill all the beans.

>The more info I read on the Internet the more I like the Hobie 16.
>It seem to be a much liked classic with a proven design and just big enough for my needs.

They are fun boats, but the owners make them at least twice the amount of fun in their testimonials. That is proven history.


>>I'd think my best chances of ever getting a reasonably cheap cat is to find a used Hobie 16 or buy a new Wave.

If you ( 95 kg ) are really serious about sailing 50/50 with your girlfriend ( 50 kg) and friend (another 95 kg)
Than take my advice. "Do not buy a hobie Wave" . Sure, again fun boats and surely people will tell you the boat will handle anything. But guys, HE ! 180 Kg's on a wave ?! That is not a sailboat that is a raft.

If you have to decide between Hobies and Hobies than what ever you do go down this list in the given order and only go to the next stage when absolutely no offers can be found for the preceding type :

Hobie FX-one (Most likely you will have to buy this new)
Hobie Tiger (Often girlfriends will sails less with you than you friend, Tiger is best with two guys)
Hobie 18 (Like the FX-one a good compromise between sailing with your girl and your friend)
Hobie 16

No other hobie, Don't get anything under 16 foot and stay away from the H17 is you want to doublehanded more than 25 % of the time or if you want to doublehand it with your friend at 180 kg's

If you are really about to spend between 10.000 and 14.500 Euro's on a new boat than don't get a H16 or TheMightyHobie18 but any other type of modern 16, 17 or 18 footer. Trust me on this, H16's you buy secondhand as good deals but not new. as you are not racing it will be no use to sink + 10.000 Euro's into a boat like that when you can have a hobie FX-one for slighly more and that is much better.

And I've sailed all of these for many hours. I know the H16 pretty darn well.

If you are looking for big bangs for not too much buck than look for second hands like nacra 5.7's and 570's (my premier advice), Prindle 18 or Hobie 18's or older F18's like the nacra F18 (dead cheap these days)

New ? Look only at FX-one's (with jib kit), Spitfires, F16's or F18's; the rest is simply a waste of money and Tornado's are to big for you.

The best boats for you and your girlfriend are FX-ones, Spitfires, F16's, Hobie 18's, Prindle 18's, Nacra 5.7 and 570's

The best boats for you and your male friend are F18's, Prindle 18-2's, Tigers, Nacra 5.8's, nacra 6.0's.

Wouter

Mogens,

I may have come across a bit strong. I meant nothing personal about it.

It was just the fact that I know the H17 and the vision of sailing it with two blokes on board just fired my rockets.

I have alot of respect for your wife, She is alot more agile and flexible then me (1.85 mtr. ; 85 kgs and not pregnant !)

Regards,

Wouter

Okay, and now I have to defend the Hobie 17.

I know that there are a bunch of sailors in Dubai who race Hobie 17 Sports double-handed. Must be all men. We were invited to go and do a seminar there, but we didn't go because I couldn't get into the country because I am a woman.

So, anyway, apparently the boats float and race with two guys aboard, so what's the problem?

Hi Wouter
Didn't see you input as a personal attack. No harm done

By the way: Have you sailed the HC16 singlehanded?,- if so, what are the chances to raise it alone, with the help of a raising bag as this site sells?

Well a hobie 14 floats and moves forward with 2 blokes on it, but would you advice this guy to buy it in order to sail it with its girlfriend ?

After 1 ride and many swims she will never step foot on that "thing" again.

Some great advice you are giving here. The gave a pretty detail intended mode of sailing and all you guys do is advice boat to him that you like for own sailing.

Wouter

Go with the Hobie 16.
All those owners can’t be wrong.
And whatever you do don’t bother reading anything by this Wouter guy.
He will have you in such a tail spinn you’ll end up buying a jet ski.

>>By the way: Have you sailed the HC16 singlehanded?,- if so, what are the chances to raise it alone, with the help of a raising bag as this site sells?

I did actually right the H16 twice singlehanded (have sailed it singlehanded more often). Both times I was sailing with a women/girl (2 different persons) both weighting in at a heavy 50 kg's without much experience. Problem was I stuffed the boat in some strong winds and chop. Girls overboard and I'm thinking. "please don't turtle" . So i that that mast going and two eyes noticeable showing a change of mode. In situations like this you find some extra strength and will somewhere as a guy. Got it up both times but I never want to do that again. Had muscle ache for days after that as I was hanging and slowly slowly climbing the line as the boat, ever so gentle, pointed her mast to the air. I was dumb. should have gone out both times are brough righting aids.

Have never tried righting aids.

Up till now my shear fanatisme have safed the day a few times.

I'm 1.85 / 85 kg.

Wouter

Sorry, Wouter, but I am a hard-core one-design racer, and it doesn't matter a whit to me how fast or slow the boats go as long as all the boats go approximately the same speed. Those Hobie 17 Sport sailors in Dubai apparently have not noticed that their boats are half sunk, because they are having too much fun racing.

You are absolutely right that people usually try to convince a new sailor to get the type of boat that they themselves sail and do not consider the needs of the sailor and the conditions where he is going to be sailing.

Personally, I don't care what kind of boat he gets, but my recommendation would be a Dragon. It's one of my favorite boats, and it is designed for the waters in his part of the world. I sure as heck know I wouldn't be sailing a beach cat up there.

Sorry, T55, I got carried away in my last response to Wouter -- although, I really do love the Dragon.

But if you really want to get cold and wet on a catamaran and you only have those three choices, it looks to me like the Twixxy would be the best.

However, if you can find a used Wave for a good price, you can put a jib and a reacher or spinnaker on it, plus a trapeze, and make it into a very versatile boat that you can sail in a very wide range of conditions and provide good enough performance to make it interesting. Something that you could "grow" with incrementally, so to speak, by adding more features as you can afford them or feel ready for them.

I don't know anything about the Twixxy, but I know the Wave has great buoyancy (can carry far more weight than the Hobie 16) and has excellent freeboard, which keeps you dryer. It can't sink, and it is very stable, and it has the flotation on top of the mast so it can't turtle, and it is VERY easy to right. These features make it safer when you are sailing in cold water. (Maybe the Twixxy has the same features.)

Personally, I would get a Dragon.

Thanks for the input everybody.
Perhaps it seem a bit weird to sail a beach-cat up here where the summer is short and the water is cold all year long.
We do have a beautiful archipelago area to explore, and an active boat culture.

I was thinking to take up windsurfing, but then I thought catamaran sailing would be pretty close + more social and a bit drier = warmer, and with a good dry suit + pfd it'll be no problem.

I'm going to Thailand this wintwer and there I plan to take a catamaran class and then rent catamarans for recreational sailing.
Hopefully they have a few models that I can try out and make my own opinion.

Can anybody tell me the diffrence between all these new plastic cats from Hobie, they all look the same to me:
Twixxy
Wave
Teddy
Dragoon

I still think that one of these, ~€5000-€6000 are within my beginner budget...(or a second hand Hobie 16)

"Can anybody tell me the diffrence between all these new plastic cats from Hobie, they all look the same to me:
Twixxy
Wave
Teddy
Dragoon"

Hi There, my opinion : don`t go for any of these boats, from what you describe your needs as.
The Hobie 16 will suit your needs, but only just, so it is the minimum spec / size of boat you should get. We have 2 sailors at our club that sometimes sail Hobie 16 together at 180-190kg. They are heavy for the boat, but it sails fine (and they have added the spinnaker kit), just realize that the limit will be in less wind than with optimum crew weight, 130-150kg. So it will suit you & your girlfriend fine. Not a great boat for single-handing in strong wind, again, recognize the limitations, carry a righting aid of some sort as well as righting lines & you will be fine. Out of what you say is available in your country it is the best option.
And regarding pitchpole tendencies : Once you have mastered the technique of sailing it in strong wind it is a very exciting boat to sail. The crew needs to have lightning reflexes in depowering the jib as it is a powerful sail, if this is done correctly, 30 knots is still sailable on a Hobie16. Pitchpoling is part of cat-sailing, as is capsizing & righting the boat. Learn to have fun with it.
The Hobie 16 also gives a dryer ride than many of the newer design cats because of the raised trampoline.

I don`t sail a Hobie, but have crewed on them for 4 years in all sorts of conditions, and have come home from a 55knot storm. There`s not a lot wrong with a Hobie 16, despite what some people say.

Cheers
Steve

...

Great, these kind of first hand experiences are very much appreaciated.

My points to get a Twixxie is still:

-Biggest of the new plastic Hobie cats, and hopefully not too "toyish"
-Cheap, can afford a new one Not some crappy second hand H16.
-Plastic hulls = strong and boyant for beginner
-Safe (less pitchpole tendancy than H16
-Big and fast enough for a beginner
-Don't need anything "race-legal" since it'll be the only cat around.
- ... Best thing of all Can take it ontop of car rack!! ...this is excellent because I don't need to spend extra $$$ to mount a tow-hook on my car and buy a trailer.

140kg is a lot of boat to be carrying on a roof rack. Nearly double the reccomended maximum of 75kg. I think you would still need a trailer for this boat.

You might want to consider a Dart 16. They are popualar in Europe, plastic (unbreakable) and fun. I had one, it was a good boat for both singlehanding and double. No daggerboards and kickup rudders allowed you sail over anything, and right up the boat ramp. Reefing sail and rollerfurling jib allow you to depower in a breeze. I think its better boat than a Wave or H16.

UK Class Association
http://www.dart16.com/

Builder
http://www.lasersailing.com/uk/boats/dart16/?i=1f51e5f59b5cb6585e7e74f5214ee768

Boat review
http://www.lasersailing.com/uk/boats/dart16/boatTest.php?i=12d3b95a7692762d22bc3889b1c6c69d

Bill

grob: You're right, it's too heavy.

bvining: I read the review and it looks like a very nice boat.
The thing is that up here I have to stick to Hobie and nothing else.
No Darts around and I won't drive to Germany or Holland to get one.

I'd sure like to have a big second hand market to choose from and then I could seriously compare which boat would exactly be the best, but the truth is diffrent.
...If anyone can prove me wrong, I'd be pleased to see some second hand Nacra, Prindles and Darts here in Finland

What are the usual wind conditions and wave conditions in the summer where you would be sailing? This could make a difference in your choice of boat.

Also, if you are planning to explore the archipelago and maybe do some camping on the islands, another factor would be the load-carrying capacity of the boat to bring camping gear, food and water.

I am also curious about whether you have beaches up there or whether the coastlines are mostly rocky. Are there beaches in the archipelago?

I don't know any exact numbers of the windspeed since I'm not a sailing or windsurfing much.
There are plenty of sailingboats and some windsurfers though so there is definately windy...And it's more windy than a protected lake since it's the sea whit lot's of space

The archepelago area has both larger, open water areas as well as smaller water areas scattered with¨islands.
Mostly the shores of the islands are 95% rocky/cliffs, but there are also some sand beaches.
(Make a search for archepelago + Finland in Google to see some nice pictures, I think there are totally >5000 islands and rocks out there, it's truly beautiful nature.)

The idea of catamran sailing here would be to explore and go for weekend trips as much as daysailing...No competitive racing, but speed is always a high priority, otherwise I could as well buy a comfortable "normal" sailingboat.

Mary,

Please allow me to provide a counterargument to your points with all due respect.

You are saying it yourself here :

>>Sorry, Wouter, but I am a hard-core one-design racer, and it doesn't matter a whit to me how fast or slow the boats go as long as all the boats go approximately the same speed.

YOU are a hard-core One-Design racer, today this is synonimous with hard-core Hobie Racing.
YOU are sailing at approximately the same speed as other boats, He has no other boats around.
It doesn't matter a whit to YOU how fast the boat is. In his case doing trip among islands (currents) I think increased boatspeed is added safety.

>>Those Hobie 17 Sport sailors in Dubai apparently have not noticed that their boats are half sunk, because they are having too much fun racing.

Well THEY are racing, T55 will be making daytrips. THEY are middle eastern men typically 60-75 kg a person. T55 I talking about crewweights between 145 and 180 kg's + camping gear/food/safety for the day. They are pleasure cruising in sub tropical waters, probably wearing nothing more than a bathing suit and life jacket. T55 will wear a thick wetsuit or a dry suit and be alot less flexible or agile when moving about on the trampoline that is likely packed with cruising stuff as well.

I did weekend trips with my Prindle 16's and Prindle 18's in the past (sailing to a regatta venues, doing them and then sailing back later in the weekend) and I really did appreciate the extra space on board. Not to mention the extra speed. More than once I had to sail against the currents past harbour inlets or against time to be at the destination before dusk. I'm not recommenting larger cats or advicing against the H17 because I'm anti one-design racing or supposedly dislike hobies, I'm doing that because I'm looking at T55 intended use for the boat. Sure one can cross the atlantic on a Hobie wave if ones life depended on it. Larger "cruises" have been made on rubber liferaft. But if one has the luxury of choosing than going for a larger cat is certainly the smart thing to do.


>>You are absolutely right that people usually try to convince a new sailor to get the type of boat that they themselves sail ...
>>Personally, I don't care what kind of boat he gets, but my recommendation would be a Dragon. It's one of my favorite boats,

I rest my case.

Again, I wish to underline my respect for you Mary, and for Hobie cats in general.

Wouter

No, Wouter, you rested MY case. Thank you.

I wouldn't worry about the top of your car rack, I know a few guys who carry there cats up there(Albiet its in pieces)Can this twixxie thing be up there without being taken apart? I just looked it up for hte first time online, looks like it has a little size and freeboard. Does anyone know a person in this gentleman's area that could give him a ride on a boat similar to his choices? Bottom line i think that would help him make a descision based on what would make him happy.

All European cars have a maximum roof rack loading limit imposed on them by the manufacturer. Most cars are 75kg, some are 100kg, some larger vehicles/vans are as high as 150kg. You need to check your handbook.

I don't know about the trucks in the US, and I am not going to tell you that you cannot carry a 140kg boat on your roof. But I do want to give you enough information to make your own decision.

Remember the max roof rack loading is nothing to do with the strength of the roof or the rack its all about dynamic stability of your vehicle. i.e going around a corner at speed or more importantly under heavy braking. It is stupid to think that a vehicle with 74kg on the roof is safe and one with 76kg is not. But these limits are imposed for a reason. You just have to decide if 140kg on a 75kg rack is too much. If you were to drive everywhere calmly at 55mph perhaps it will be fine but under heavy braking from 70mph a 140kg is likely to rip the roof rack off its rails.

I am sure Wouter can provide an equation to prove/disprove this assumption

In fact, it is not uncommon for cars with heavily loaded skiboxes (filled with anything but skis) to go over sideways in turns or avoidance manouvers. Especially SUV's :-)

Having the boat in a hanger is in my opinion the best way to travel with a boat.

I sailed a hobie 16 for 20 years, about half of the time solo and have capsized several times, solo. I always carry a riting bag with a 4:1 tackle and have never had a problem riting the boat (note: I weigh 95 kg and use a relatively large bag). I strap the bag to the underside of the tramp with quick release buckles so it is ready for use and the tackle line is already hooked to the top if the dolphin striker and bag. I use the tackle line as the righting line to keep the boat from turtling while I release the sheets and fill the bag. An added benifit of the bag is that it acts as a sea ancor when you initially rite the boat, giving you time to get things sorted out on the boat, then retrieve the bag and stuff it under one of the front hiking straps (on the down side, you have to get back to shore to be able to restow the bag under the tramp). Turtle note: I don't know how much weight is required to unturtle a H16 with a mesh tramp vs a solid tramp. I know 95 kg is enough with a solid tramp if righting cross wind (i.e., the wind helps get the boat on its side by wind pressure on the tramp).

As you seem to like the rotomoulded polyethylene boats, the only one that has not been mentioned so far is the Escape Playcat. These can be picked up brand new very cheap, £3999 in the UK.

However I think they may be cheap because they are no longer being made, I heard they were in trouble and a quick look on the Escape website revealed they only seem to be selling monohulls at present.
http://www.jowatercraft.com/Sail.html

Another option, though not a cat, could be the windrider trimarans, I bet the rave would be a hoot on a lake.
http://www.windrider.com/wrproducts.shtml

Finnish dealer http://www.windrider.com/dealers_int_popup.php?brand=windrider&country=finland



Gareth

Ok, since everyone else is putting in their 2 cents, I'll offer some of my opinions on boats I have sailed on or owned.
First off, I'm a member of a large cat club (150 boats), so I've been around and on a lot fo the boats mentioned in this thread.

First off, I currently own a hobie 16 and an inter 17. I hate the H16. IT si very true that for one design racing, it si a humongous class, other than that, I don't think too much of the boat. I will say though, that I know many many happy H16 skippers, and that's fine. At my club, used H16's are going for between $500 & $1000 (us). For this reason, it is usually most ppl's first catamaran. It's a picky boat. I think a lot of beginners get discouraged with it. It is definitely sailable in almost anything, but it requires a good amount of experience to do so.

I would not even consider a wave or getaway. Even for an absolute beginner. I have never sailed a bravo, nor do I really know anything about them, so I won't give any opinions.

I have yet to be on it or see it, but a club member recently purchased a dragoon. It sounds like a drastic improvement over the wave and getaway. The getaway sounded like an improvement over the wave, until I actually sailed on one...

Hobie 17 is a great boat. I wouldn't recommend it for primarily doublehanded sailing.

The hobie 18 would be a great boat. A good compromise, and there are a good number of relatively older and more inexpensive ones available.

The prindle line would be good for an older boat.

I think the absolutely ideal boat would be an inter 17 or FX-one, but they aren't cheap boats. I know that an Inter17 w/o spinnaker is about $9500 (in the states). I believe FX-ones w/o spinnaker are going for $9100 here. The reason these boats are great is that they are both designed to be sailed single handed or doublehanded which makes them very versatile. I have sailed my Inter 17 double handed and been almost able to keep up with the tigers... These are very responsive boats, and almost impossible to pitchpole. Doublehanded it should be relatively hard to capsize them, too.

A Tiger or Nacra F18 or Inter 18 or Tornado may be a bit much to handle, but if you want a bit more of a challenge, they are very fantastic boats.

I really can't comment on Mysteres or Taipans, we don't really have them here. I don't know the specific models, but from what I do know about them, both brands should have models that would be good for you. I believe these are mainly European brands.

The other thing is some of the other Nacra models, like a 5.0 or 5.5. Personally, I think the 5.0 is one of the most forgiving cats for a beginner to sail. If I were to start a cat sailing school for adults. I would buy a fleet of Nacra 5.0. Easy to handle, no daggerboards to worry about. Very safe and buoyant, and fast, fun boats. They're also built really solid.

Don't mean to offend anyone, this is all just based on my personal experiences, and everyone's will vary.

-Justin

The windrider is an interesting idea...maybe not a bad choice either. The one thing I've heard about tris is that they have a tendency to pitchpole in large waves because the bows are very fine. Having never been on one or seen this happen, I can't confirm this. Hobie cat also has a trimaran, I think the windrider is a more popular tri, from what I've heard.

Also, I wouldn't worry about the local shop for parts. A lot of things are relatively standard. What isn't you can always order. I don't deal with the most local dealer to me (long story). The local dealer is 30 min away. Instead I bought my boat from a dealer about 5 hrs away. Whenever I need anything, I just send him an email, and it arrives in the post.

Also, regarding the 16, it si true there are a lot of ppl who passionately love the boat. But I think that for every person you find who passionately loves it, you'll fidn someone who passionately hates it.

-Justin

I have just been informed that when I recommended that he get a Dragon, some people might have thought I meant a Dragoon and was misspelling it.

But I definitely meant a Dragon, which is a beautiful monohull keelboat designed for the wind and the cold, rough waters of the North Sea. So it should be ideal for Finland.

Recommending the Dragon was my way of saying nobody would ever get me out on that cold water on a beach cat.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Mary,
If you were referring to me, I didn't make that mistake. I don't think a dragon is a bad choice (along with many other monohull designs). As far as the Dragoon goes, I'm very enthusiastic to get behind the helm of it. It sounds like a good niche boat.

-Justin

No, Justin, nothing to do with you. Rick just told me that a lot of people probably don't know what a Dragon is and they might have thought I meant Dragoon. I don't know anything about the Dragoon.

Dragoon: I also know nothing. It sounds really hot as a beginner boat.
re: dragoon
sounds like a great boat...
won't really won't know til the spring, when I get to drive one...
There aren't very many of them is this country, though I get the impression it is doing well in Europe...
I have high hopes...
I really don't think the wave or getaway is the ticket, they are such cumbersome boats (an understatement)
that I wonder if important sailing principles can be understood on them...

Also, might I add, it is a fact (based on statements from multiple hobie dealers) that margins are higher on the plastic boats. This is of course from the dealers perspective, though based on what I know about the construction of boats, it is immesnsely cheaper to build a pvc type boat than a fiberglass boat. Plastic boats make up 80% of hobie cat's business (that is quoted from a hobie rep). Perhaps the reason they push these for beginners is $$ rather than honest guidance. I'm sorry, but all the plastic boats I've seen from hobie have been a f-ing joke. I think they are hurting the sport by pushing these...
Just my humble opinion...


-Justin

I have to say I don't agree with the second part of this. If 4 out of 5 boats sold are plastic boats, you could interpret this as incremental sales i.e. boats being sold that would not otherwise have been sold, this can only be good for cat sailing.

Other than Mary, very few people have good things to say about the plastic boats, but they would appear to be an important part of the catsailing community. Plastic boats have transformed the kayak market, and could be quietly doing the same for sailling.

This forum is mainly about hightec boats that are sold in relatively small numbers, perhaps we are out of touch.

It`s amazing how we tend to stray from the original post - I invite everyone to read the original post again, and then answer objectively. There is little point suggesting a Nacra/Inter/Prindle/Taipan/Turbosquid catamaran, given that T55 asked a really simple question, and it gets repeated in the heading of the post EVERY TIME someone writes a response, but none of us are reading it.
A simple choice of 3 boats, given his specific needs.
None of them are the perfect boat for these needs, given, but which one will satisfy all his needs reasonably well??

-Wave : I`ve only seen photos of these, but they look tiny.
-Twixxy : Checked out the web-site & specs, also doesn`t look big enough.
-Hobie 16 : Also not quite big enough to handle 2 large guys with camping gear, but I`ll assume that he`d rather take his girlfriend camping than his 200lb friend (I could be wrong here !) in which case the H16 will cope, but not be as good as all the other boats you guys have recommended, which he can`t get hold of.

He has a choice between the above 3 boats, for me it`s clear as day that only one of them will be reasonably adequate. And with his needs in mind, unfortunately there is no beach-cat, or dinghy for that matter, that is large enough to do what he is asking, and be car-toppable at the same time, so you`re gonna need a trailer either way.
Since you`re looking at Hobie-made boats only, perhaps you should be asking this question on the Hobie Forum, where the Hobie-haters seldom lurk.

Cheers
Steve

Maybe we should also keep in mind that he is a total beginner, and that he is going to be sailing on icy-cold water and also that he is going to be cruising/exploring without the benefit of other boats around to help if he gets in trouble.

I don't think the Hobie 16 is a very easy or forgiving boat to learn on. Trial and error might be fun in the warm waters of south Florida, but could be dangerous up there where he is.

Again keeping in mind the three boats he has to choose from, the conditions in which he is sailing, and the use he has in mind for the boat, the logical choice is the Wave.

It will carry MUCH more weight than the Hobie 16, it has a bigger deck/trampoline seating area than the Hobie 16, it is much more stable than the Hobie 16, it is easier to learn to sail than the Hobie 16, it can handle more wind than any other beach cat, and it is much easier to right than the Hobie 16. (And, of course, the material itself is buoyant, so the boat can't sink.)

Another consideration is that he has a VERY short sailing season, so he needs a boat that he can sail as much as possible during his window of opportunity. The Wave can handle a far greater range of wind speeds than any other cat. And, as I already mentioned, he can add a jib and a roller-furling reacher if he wants to go faster in light air. But in that part of the world you need to be able to shorten sail quickly.

There is probably a reason why the monohulls like the Dragon, that are designed for conditions up there, are substantially undercanvassed. Even the Tornado catamaran is undercanvassed (relatively, compared to modern cats) because of the area where it was designed to sail, around the British Isles.

In other words, the Wave sounds like the perfect boat for arctic exploration (at least of the three he has to choose from).

Two big guys (about 200 pounds each) went beach-hopping a few years go on a Wave in Canada on Lake Ontario, a notoriously cold lake. It worked great because of the boat's buoyancy and load-carrying capacity. They made hatches in the hulls so they could carry most of their gear in the hulls, even including a camp stove.

I know, this all sounds too practical and logical and safe, while he is thinking speed and excitement. Well, a Wave in 25-30 knots of wind is as exciting as most cats are in 15 knots. And most of those other cats wouldn't even be out there in that much wind (unless they are -- or even IF they are -- in sight of people on shore and/or with other boats around).

No matter which of the three boats he chooses, he should make sure there is masthead flotation on it, again for safety reasons.

And, no, I don't sell Waves. It's just my take on his three options. I've never met a Twixxy, so if what I have said about the Wave relates to that boat, as well, that could be a good option. I would put the Hobie 16 last on the list I would recommend for this particular situation.

I almost forgot -- the Wave IS cartoppable, especially if you get the classic version rather than the club model. The classic is fast and easy to assemble and disassemble.

Mary you have some sound advice there.
However I need to object on the "Arctic conditions", this is Finland/Scandinavia, not the north pole.-

We do have a short summer and fairly cold weather, but the water temps are around 18-20c during the summer and I won't instantly die if I get wet... Especially wearing a wetsuit.

Although there are no catamarans around, there's an active boatlife here that might rescue me in case of trouble
I actually live in a populated part of the world with real people on real boats

Hi T55,

I guess we are all concerned for your safety and enjoyment. Since most of us who use these forums are experienced (or at least committed) cat sailors, when compared to the average cruising sailor we probably tend to have higher ambitions in terms of speed being the source of enjoyment. That will have coloured everyone's view to some extent.

You need to work out what YOU want and how that is likely to develop as you gain experience. Do you generally like to potter and enjoy life at a gentle pace drinking a few tinnies of beer as the scenery rolls by, or do you find that you want to keep pushing the limits of speed and control to achieve an adrenelin rush? What about the people you want to sail with?

I have sailed for 3+ years and my wife has never got near any of my cats. We were in Aruba (Caribbean) two weeks ago and I persuaded her to come out for a ride on a Nacra 6.0 (big, stable beach cat) - with two other people to weigh it down. When the swell reached 6 inches the bow came up about 2 inches... that was enough for her to request a return to shore! By contrast, I keep looking for the edge and capsizing more often than I should in order to find it. I enjoy nothing more than powering off the top of waves into troughs several feet deep, and having spray flying from the bows and landing many yards behind me. The question is - which camp do you fall in? Have you seen the Spitfire Video (see separate threads on BBs)? Does their behaviour thrill or apall you? There's been a whole debate on their pitchpoling and capsizing - and you'll see that some of us think it's fun and others don't.

You also need to consider what windspeeds and wave conditions you'd like to sail in, while you are learning and thereafter if you tend to become more ambitious with experience.

One way to look at this is to draw a parallel with cars - that should make for some interesting follow up!

The Hobie Wave is rather like a Ford Ka. It is small and functional. You can drive it solo or two up but no more. You can throw it around a bit and heve a good perception of being on the edge, without leaving a dual carriageway or exceeding 35mph - but it felt good, was better than walking and your girlfriend was maxed out.

The Twixie has got some important trick bits (e.g. twin trapeze and spinnaker kit), so is like a Ford XR2. Still too small to accomodate a family, but a lot more fun to throw around. You have to go a bit faster to get a sense of speed, but you've got more controls to make going faster safe and comfortable. Your mate will enjoy this one more, whereas your girlfriend will either force you to stay in 3rd gear or still love it when you're topped out.

The Hobie 16 is most like the Ford Escort RS2000 from the mid '70's. Nothing like a modern RS2000, but fast, scary and on the edge if you drive round forests. As an absolute beginner, would you like to learn to drive in one? You and your mate are likely to love its accelleration, speed and graceful lines - so what if it is dated, it's a classic.

Most of the people on this bulletin board would probably consider themselves as driving anything from a mid 1990's BMW M3 to brand new Maclaren F1s.

In this context, which car would you buy to suit your needs?

I hope that is a useful perspective, and if not let's have fun with other analogies!

Cheers
Simon

Be real, If you buy a new boat you want a dealer nearby. So Hobie is the way to go. I wanted to suggest the Getaway. We have two that come out. These people aren't racers. Both were beginners to sailing. Their boats have the front tramp,wings and motors. They do a lot of camping and have done some distance crusing with camping gear. The boats are very boyant. They sail well in all conditions. It's a little bigger than what you were looking at however you mention you want something to grow with. I'm sure you will regret not buying a larger cat.

Have Fun!

T55,
I was not implying that you don't have any people or boats in your part of the world. It is just that no matter where you are in the world, when you are daysailing or "cruising," there usually are not other boats in your immediate area to come to your aid if you get in trouble.

If I go sailing on our sound, which is protected water, nine square miles, average air and water temps both 80 degrees, I can sail for hours on the other side of the sound without ever seeing another boat, sail or power. If I get in trouble, like get separated from my boat, I am in BIG trouble. And that's in warm water.

Most catamaran sailors are accustomed to buoys racing on a closed course, where there are lots of people around to help if you get in trouble. So sometimes people give advice to a new sailor based upon that scenario.

And, by the way, you probably need a drysuit rather than a wetsuit. Other people can probably give you better information about what to wear to keep warm and dry in your sailing conditions. A wetsuit is not going to cut it.

Sailing during summertime in scandinavia is done in shorts and t-shirts. A wetsuit might get to hot, but handy if it starts to blow a lot, or if you plan to capsize. Combinations of shorts/spray-jacket is also nice, it is not that cold here during summer, from 18 to 26 degrees (celcius) are common. If a cold front hits, it might drop to 12 - 15 degrees and a drysuit is nice.

A drysuit is essential during spring/fall!

Regarding contemplating a Dragoon. This is either old wooden boats or newer polyester ones. But they are monohulls with a relatively deep keel. Not a vessel I would enjoy cruising in the quite shallow areas of the archipelago of Finland. These are also quite costly boats, which requires a berth in a marina + haulout for mainteinance (or using your trailer and a slipway). Trailersailing is not that common in scandinavia, and most catsailors has no problem finding a sailingclub (few yachtclubs here, thankfully) with a ramp for launcing. Allowing for mast-up storage..

Mary: You are right on with regards to the Tornado being underpowered, at least in my common sailing conditions. It either blows a lot, or almost not at all. Makes it exciting from time to time if you are far from your launching ramp when it starts to blow..


T55: Have you been in touch with the Multihull Assoc. of Finland? Ref: http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/sctl/
They probably know what boats are available in Finland, and can give some further insights to your local conditions.

It is all what you are used to, I guess. A Tornado sailor friend of ours from England used to race in Miami in T-shirt and shorts when all the other Tornado sailors were wearing wetsuits or drysuits. We thought he was crazy.

And, Rolf, I am sorry I ever brought up the Dragon, monohull, which is still causing confusion, because now you have misspelled Dragon as Dragoon, which is the catamaran. I'm just very partial to the Dragon (monohull) because I spent a lot of time on one as a teenager on Lake Erie.

Obviously, he does not want a Dragon (monohull). I don't think he could carry that on top of his car.

It is good information from you that the area around the archipelago is shallow. Sometimes it takes forever on these threads to piece together all the relevant information so others can give a sailor halfway intelligent advice.

Sounds pretty much like typical North sea conditons to me. I use a shorty in months after june. Before that I either use a good wetsuit or since 2 years a drysuit in the months april to june when the water temp is rising from 5-6 degreee celsius to about 15-20 degrees. Having said that the first 3 years I had a 15 year old worn down wetsuit of 2.5 mm thickness and a spraytop (that is nice to have) and done it like that. Arguably I was in my 20's then and could stand a little cold during the first months of the season. a new 3mm (preferable with 4 mm on the chest) is the better option together with a relative thick spraytop. I never really liked drysuit for long periods although the magic marine drysuits are the best I know and I bought one of these. But like I said I only wear that one in the first months and on longer trips.

Now I do understand why you adviced the Wave , Mary. The explanation is very helpful in underscoring your advice.

Still, I think a boat a little more powered up is the way to go. I need to check up on the Baltic sea windconditions but I really don't expect it to be haunted with sudden gail force storms. After all it is totally enclosed by landmass and quite away from the Atlantic oceans. If anything most storms (arguable coming from the atlantic) will have lost alot of power of the land. T55 must correct me if I'm wrong


Wouter

ok, NOW we're off topic. My best ride of the summer was at 8 degrees C (46 F)and howling, and I had a full wetsuit (with hood) which was fine. The drysuit doesn't come out unless it's snowing.
Sorry, I don't know much about the Twixxy or wave; I would suggest a Hobie 18 over a 16 for sure for what you plan on doing with it. Good luck.
Al

this 80% figure is quoted from our local hobie cat rep. It may be bs or not I don't know. This is what hobie states. I do know for a fact that both the dealers and hobie make more $$ on the sale of a rotomoulded (truly plastic) boat. I think this is the reason why these are selling so well. The hobie dealers talk these ppl into these hunks o' junk, and the rest is history. I work in sales. Take whatever sales course you want. But I will tell you everything you want to know about sales if you want to know. It all boils down to one thing: tell them what they want to hear. That's all it is. What makes a succesfull salesman is determining what they want ot hear and/or creating such a thing that your competitors can't say. Take whatever sales course you want. This is the real world. If you want to sell something, the key is to keep shooting on selling points until you see that one or 2 points that makes their eyes twinkle. Believe me or disbelieve me if you want, but this is how my I17R was paid for. Ppl who have sailed a wave on a cruise or club med vacation or whatever want to hear this. This is a beginners boat. This just isn't true. This is a "I want to make as much $$ out of you as possible sucker, boat as possible" (getaway). Point is beginers want to hear about a boat for beginners, and Hobie knows this and they offer their non-boats (this is my term for the rotmoulded hunks of (you know what)) If these ppl would only come down to the cat clubs and talk to the sailors before buying a boat...

You're right, Justin. The Wave is not appropriate for a beginner because he would get bored with it. You have to race for at least 40 years, as my husband and I have, before you get to the point where you are senile enough to appreciate the Wave and the very tight one-design racing this class offers.
But it is nice that beginners buy them, because then the boats quickly end up on the used market so us stupid suckers who love those hunks of junk can get them at a lower price.

I guess I'll chime in with my 2 cents. I own a Hobie 16.I purchased it cheap and sail it in the warm waters of Rehobeth Bay, Delaware.I would not choose to sail it in New England let alone Finland . I checked out the Twixxy on the Hobie Europe site and I think thats the way I would go if I wanted to own a cat "up north". If I wanted to day cruise, I would get a monohull around 18' (6 meters?) in length with a chute for some down wind fun.