Hobie 20 mods

Since the Fox has been a marketing failure in the US and Hobie says they are continuing with the Miracle 20, I've been thinking about what changes could be made to the Hobie 20 to bring it up to speed and enable it to compete, boat for boat with I20s, for example. Here are the two changes that I think would be most cost effective and make the biggest improvement.
1. Add a spinnaker with snuffer. My thought is to go around 300 sq. ft. (the older "accessory" spinnaker Hobie offered was about 300-320 sq. ft.) , NOT the smaller Tiger spin, which seems too small for a 20 footer.

2. Hobie should build an insert to put in the dagger board wells to re-size them for more modern, high aspect dagger boards similar to the I20. The low aspect H20 dagger boards have a lot of drag.

It seems to me that these two mods would invigorate the H20 and make it very competitive with more current 20 footers. I know it would still have all the shin buster pieces on the tramp and wouldn't have a self tacking jib, but we would get the extra power off wind and up wind match any 20 foot boat.

Hobie gets to sell retrofit kits for dagger boards, spinnaker kits and maybe even more new boats.

What do all you design experts think?

David
H20 781 (obviously)

a carbon mast and proper square top main would go a long way as well.

If you want to compete boat for boat one-design racing is the answer.
Who cares if it's an Inter 20 or a Hobie 20. Speed is relative. Go with the best fleet. If you don't have a C Class you're not playing the speed game.
Unless your some kind of millionaire you will always be racing a boat that is some degree of slow when compared to truly fast boats.

Making the kind of changes you are talking about to the H20 will destroy the existing one-design class. As others have pointed out if you want to sail the H20 then leave it alone and enjoy the one design racing it offers. If you want a boat that performs like an I20 then get an I20.

Prindle tried to do exactly what you are talking about to the P19 making the P19MX and IMHO this action hastened the death of the class.

Dave

I wonder if more Hobie 20's would come to distance races if they had a spinnaker.

Or would making the spinnaker class-legal destroy the current Hobie 20 one-design class?

Hobie 20 sailors could add spinnakers to their boats, at least to use for Portsmouth racing, just as other classes have, but I haven't heard of many doing that.

Whoops, Dave's post beat me to it about it destroying the existing one-design class.

I'd love to sail my 20 with a spin, but it would change the class from a couple's class with a lower weight limit of 295 pounds to one that required heavier, stronger sailors. If I were to sail my H20 in a distance race I'd just retrofit it with a spinnaker for those events. Granted, the daggers do have a lot of drag compared with higher-aspect designs, but the boat is still faster than the I20 upwind and downwind the daggers are half-way up anyway. I think with sailors of equal ability, it would be a close race. As proof, an H20 won the Great Texas Cat Challenge.

I probably should have added a little background. In Division 11 the H20 fleet is pretty much done. Our division racing is 16s, 17s and a smattering of 18s. We do have some H20s in and around the DC area and find our racing portsmouth style on the Chesapeake with CRAC. Even the I20s don't get enough together to race one design. I am a huge fan of one design, but, sadly, that isn't happening with any boat in my area except the A cats.

Regarding killing the class; how alive is it at the present? I wonder how many H20s Hobie sells each year; I haven't seen any new ones. My idea was that taking the risk in changing the rules would keep the boat more current and maybe stimulate sales.

To be fair, I have heard that the H20 is the only larger cat that mixed crews can sail because it doesn't have a spin. I think this is true, as I have sailed with a number of females and most of them were great crew, but wouldn't have had the strength to handle a spinnaker (they didn't think so either). But I don't think the H20 class has many mixed crews sailing the boat and the game seems to have gone to spin boats; certainly for distance racing and even for buoy racing. Everyone says they are more exciting and once you go there, you don't want to go back. I like the Hobie 20; I think its a good looking boat and sails well and would like to see it stay alive as a class.

David
H20 781

Pitchpoledave said:
"a carbon mast and proper square top main would go a long way as well."

I thought of that, but wouldn't that be more expensive to retrofit? My hope would be to make changes that current owners might realistically invest in.

David
H20 781

Seriously now.

The I20 is a lot faster than the H20 upwind. Believe me I know I sailed the H20 a lot.

If you change the boards and add a chute you will have a boat that is still slightly slower than an I20. If you buy a carbon mast and a larger main sail you might be getting close to the speed. So for about $7000 dollars you might have a boat that could compete head to head with an I20. Seems to me you would be a lot better off selling the H20 and getting into a class that is popular in your area. H16, H17, F18, or I20.

Keep One Hull Flying,
Mike Hill

With due respect :

I always wondered why the introduction of the midpole snuffer, the selftacker, the flatter spis, the new rudderboards and other upgrades never destroyed the US I-20 class ?

We always hear how allowing chance destroys a class but all the classes are are growing and surviving are exactly the classes that allow chance ! I-20's, F18's, A-cats, I-17, even F16's

Don't we all think it is time to face the reality ? That not chance kills a class but stagnation.


To Davidn I would like to say.

If you don't have a meaningful H20 class nearby then go for it !

In order :

Spinnaker
Selftacker (just because it make spi sailing more comfortable)
Squaretop main

Forget out the rest or decide to buy a different boat before adding the spi, selftacker and squaretop main.

With regards to Girls handling spi's. Have them steer and have yourself do the spi and get double ratchets on each side (4 in total). If Jennifer Lindsay and Kelly Gray can win their Alter cup qualifier and sail a Tiger in training then so can you !

Wouter

Just to be clear, not planning any changes to the 20 nor do I think we would, ever.

As for the I20's, all the mods presented simply don't make that much difference. I don't have a laced tramp, mid pole snuffer, or the new rudders. Don't miss them either! None of the mods obsoleted the existing boats. Many haven’t put ANY of the mods on their boat and do just fine.

The changes David is talking about making to the H20... new dagger boards, spin, and a larger main those are major changes and will obsolete every one of the existing H20’s.

Not everyone wants to race Formula; Formula isn't all things to all people. There are a lot of folks that really enjoy one design. Now I understand all one design classes have undergone changes, but most successful one design classes manage their changes very carefully.

My point to David is to either sick with the H20 as is and get people excited about the class again, or get into an existing formula class or spin enabled one design. Don't spend a [censored] load of money retrofitting a boat just to end up sailing open anyway, unless of course that's your thing.

Dave

If the Hobie 20 and the Hurricane 5.9 are so similar, why not try the SX kit which has given the 5.9 a new lease of life and keeps the cat on the same handicap number it always had.

I think you just made a bunch of H20 drivers very happy!

David,

I understand your reasons fully, Even I like One-design racing. That is not it.

The thing that gets me everytime that the paradox that if so many people prefer and enjoy OD racing then why are all OD classes dead ? In my area only the H16 and Dart 18 are holding on to some OD class but losing ground just the same. All those N5.2, N5.5, N6.0, H17, TheMightyHobie18, P16, P18, P18-2, P19, etc fleets are completely gone.

The biggest example I can refer to is the Tornado class. Over 2/3rds of the members voted against the upgraded Tornado; this would make for a solid base to continue the (classic) Tornado class for years. However; 18 months later the classic Tornado was all but dead and the few break-away sailors gethered a whole new class around them that would dominate once more.

I've seen it happen to all the fleets. Majority of class members votes against ANY changes whatsever. But when the small active core of volunteers leave because THEY want some changes than that whole majority collapses as if they never really existed. Most of them you can find again in the new class, after a few months of being sour, and then it starts all over again. Most of them just don't have a spine, want to have others do the work and resist any change because they can. Never, ever, does it occure to them that they can keep their class if they put some effort in themselfs.

I wish it was different.

Wouter

1: The class did not want the new rig, but ISAF did..
2: The Tornado will have a carbon mast from 2005.

So, we will soon see if changes kills the Tornado class or if no change would have been for the better (straying a bit off topic for this thread now, aren't we?)

Regards
Rolf

Matt, I still wonder how healthy the class is. I only see part of the picture (Division 11), but the H20 is not a functioning class there and it causes me to wonder if that is happening a lot around the country. If Hobie is selling a steady amount (I doubt if any manufacture sells large numbers of any single racing cat model), then I understand Hobies reluctance to consider change.

The thread was part theoretical thinking (its winter, you know) and part practical. My guess is the dagger boards while a change that could only be done with the manufacture as a real model change to the class, would dramatically improve the upwind performance of the H20. Of course, I can add a spin, which I am considering, in order to better compete in the portsmouth racing in which I find myself.

But where are the pockets of Hobie 20 strength?

David
H20 781

[quote]So, we will soon see if changes kills the Tornado class or if no change would have been for the better /quote]
The Tornado was the 4th largest fleet at a UK Cat Nationals this year, with 34 cats. As Yachts and Yachting says this is unprecedented.

"But where are the pockets of Hobie 20 strength?"

Mid-West

I would actually bet that there are more Hobie 20s racing in the US than INter 20s

Hi Wouter,
It is a bit of a mystery why everyone professes a love of one-design (the pluses are self-evident) yet the classes get very fractured at the upper end of the beach cat spectrum. In our area the H20 almost killed off the TheMightyHobie18 class. As I understand it because I wasn't there, the H20 was developed to respond to the Nacra 18. The Nacra 20 was then developed to respond to the H20. When the I20 came out it decimated the H20 fleet in my area. Now the I20 fleet is suffering as it lost members to the 18HT boats. My point is that a lot of skippers at this level are looking for the next home run boat; to show up with the lastest and greatest.

When I got my H20, I was in awe of it, but I noticed that it didn't get any respect at the regattas as everyone was "cooing" over the I20s; my boat and I were definitely "not happening"

This pattern will continue forever, I think. When I got into cat racing I always wondered why the cat sailors didn't maintain long time fleets (the H16 being possibly the only exception). In dinghy racing one can think of many examples; Lightning, Snipe, Lazer, Albacore, Flying Scot...some of these boats are over 60 years old and have only slightly, slowly evolved. People race them their whole lives. Cat sailors seem to be different--but I think I'm touching on a new thread here.

David
H20 781

here it is

The H20 sailors on the coasts have switched to the Tiger or other spin boats, but in the middle of the country, the 20 is still very strong. It's probably the fastest growing boat in our fleet (61 in Denver) and is very popular in other Midwest states. Of the 35 to 45 Hobies that show up at our regattas, about 25 percent or more are H20s.

On a different subject: Hey, Jake. I think an upwind race between an I20 and an H20 would be very close, but without a head-to-head test, it's impossible to tell (the gauntlet is thrown!)
See ya on the water!

That is almost certainly true

David,
I agree with a lot of you're saying. I think if you look at some of the long-standing one-design classes you'll see classes that had occaisional updates to the boats, gear, or sailplan. Compare a Star class boat to what it was in the beginning. If it hadn't changed, it would have died. What I see in the one-design classes for cats is a hard core nothing changes attitude, and the boats begin to fail to capture the imagination and passion of the sailors.

When I sailed my 18, I mused quite a bit about an add-on package that would pump the boat up a bit. I didn't want to have an 18 that was as fast as some other boat, I just thought there were some things that could make a more enjoyable and up to date version. Similar things to what you mentioned - removable daggerwell inserts to allow use of higher aspect boards, a spin package, and a modernization of the sail plan. As a package it could be added to the boats for HC racing and removed for OD. If it gained wide enough acceptance the change kit might make it back into the one design some day. I did add a spin to that boat, and I can say it is an addictive thing.

When I had my 20, I used to think about how easy it would be to do a simple modernization of the sail plan, along the lines of what was done for the Tornado. Change the cut of the main to a square, make the jib self tacking, and add a modern cut high aspect spinnaker. I never wanted to do this simply to keep up with the I-20s, I just thought the boat would be really nice to sail in that config, and such a beautiful boat deserves a modernization once and awhile. And I honestly think it could add new life to the class, but that's just me. Forget adding a carbon spar or other costly things. You could still do a removable insert for the wells to run different boards.

Now people say "requiring new sails would kill the class" - only if the new sails are prohibitively expensive or require expensive updates to the platform. Many OD racers replace their sails very often, so honestly buying new sails shouldn't be an issue. Keep the area low on the spinnaker, but make it a more efficient cut, and you shouldn't scare off the mixed teams either. For that reason, the Tiger set-up is probably ideal, also considering it comes from Hobie.

But again, I wouldn't make the emphasis on being faster boat for boat with the I-20s. I would concentrate on modernizing the boat in a reasonable way the builds on the strengths of the design and the people that want to sail it. Add the mods up for your handicap, show people how nice it is, and maybe it will catch on.

As for no mods made ever for the 20 or other one design classes, I can only what a shame. Class designs should be able to reasonably update with the times.

I still like the 20 and definitely had fun going head to head with you David! But I must admit I love my 6.0...

Indeed the H20 is a beautiful boat with a good following in some areas. I dont think there are any new ones being sold(correct me if Im wrong), so the class may want to invigorate itself. I think you should start with a new main and jib, leave everything else alone. See how the class rsponds to these changes. Put out a poll, or sail the boat DPN with the new sail package. If you are not sailing with a fleet of 20's, then do what you want. Make the boat more exciting and attractive for you. If you start kicking booty, then maybe it will catch on.

Have fun!

David
F18

Hi David
Just some food for thought about the H20 mast and potential sail plan revisions.

I believe the presence of a comp tip is a real challenge for a sail maker in designing a square top sail. If the rumor mill was accurate. The Hobie Fox suffered in the US because it also had a comp tip and the development of the sail never quite got it right (flexi tip caused the leech to open prematurely). Alternatively, the head to head with the I20 always demonstrated that the larger sails on the I20 trumped the Fox's F20 sail plan. The San Diego sailors should be able to comment on the Fox with a comp tip and the square top and spin versus the I20.

I have never seen a Fox on the water so I have absolutely no first hand knowledge if any of this proved to be true.

Finally with respect to spin size. Texel and ISAF seem to favor 24 sq meter chutes for 20 foot boats. The Tornado chute of 25 sq is considered oversized by texel. The I20 chute is 24 sq meters and the NE 100 chute of 28 sq if memory is correct.

For what its worth... the 25 sq m chutes are hard work in a breeze (you don't want to do 4 hours of racing with them)

The NE 100 chutes frequently use a doublers for distance races. (not double ratchets).

Finally, the High aspect jibs on the Tornado and I 20 are useless going downwind alone without a chute. (That's why you will see the I20's avoid hot reaches to sail high and then pop the chute to get down on odd ball courses.)

Take Care
Mark

>>Finally, the High aspect jibs on the Tornado and I 20 are useless going downwind alone without a chute. (That's why
you will see the I20's avoid hot reaches to sail high and then pop the chute to get down on odd ball courses.)


I don't fully agree here.

The selftacker may be less efficient on the downwinders but never useless. "Useless" suggests that you can just as well saile without it on the downwinders and that is certainly not true. Also I very much believe the reason for the loss of a little speed on the downwinders is to be found in the cut of the selftacker jibs. Selftackers are still exclusively used on spi boats and here the jibs are complete cut to optimized upwind sailing by sarcrifising the reach and downwind performance when sailing without a jib. This all has nothing to do with being high aspected or not not even with the selftacker setup itself. It is a direct result of the flatter cut od these spis when compared to jib on non spi boats.

I found signs for this on some personal experiences between my Taipan F16 and standard Taipans. Especially since me first jib was cut a little to full for a spi boat. It would collapse when I pointed with the standard Taipans and so I lost there. However on reaches and downwinders I was quite alright. Only on deep downwinders the standard boats gained ever so slowly on me. I won't go into details. Experience gained during touring stages of this summers DCC in 4 - 14 knots of wind.

The specs of the boats were

Standard Taipan

jib 4.15
main 14.56

total 18,71 sq. mtr.

Taipan F16
jib 3.45 sq.mtr (May be larger under F16 rules but construction limits prevent this)
Main 14.85

Total 18.30 sq. mtr.


So I was sailing with 0.41 sq. mtr. (4.5 sq. ft.) less area in total.

I'm recut the luff curve and I think I gained upwind performance against some loss on the downwind legs. I think the reaches will still be relatively all right maybe a small loss here.

If anything, we can take away from this that entlarging the square-top and putting a selftacker on can result in about the same performance as the overlapping jibbed boat with a pinhead main. Actually I found the differences to be so small that they may all be caused by errors in trim and balance. I know for certain that I sailed the DCC event with to much prebend and the middle section of my mainsail wasn't working optimally. I saw the tell tales in the middle do funny things but only realized in the last week what the cause had to be.

Wouter

Didn't the Nacra 6.0 add a spinnaker option a few years ago. How has that effected the 6.0 class?

Actually
They did not add the spin option to the boat and as a result the class is not able to sustain much one design interest at the national level.

The class is much like the Hobie 20 and the majority of boats are likely to be the same age eg 5 to 10 years old.

Sailors are faced with the age old debate... The boat is nearing the end of its racing life... Do I replace it with the same boat... change classes or change the kind of sailing that I do.

What's your advice Hobiezealot?
Mark

Actually they did - the New England guys created their specs with the spinnaker and asked Performance Cat to adopt it and make it an option on the boat. Perf did adopt a spinnaker option for the 6.0NA but they went their own way ignoring the work done by the New England group. I don't know of anyone that ever purchased the factory spinnaker option on the 6.0.

How has that effected the class in the New England Area?

Well...it's hard to point fingers at anything concrete but it seems that most of the folks that sailed 6.0's in the Tybee500 began to ask themselves why they aren't sailing Nacra 20s. The 6.0NA class is still relatively strong in the North East, Florida Pan handle, and Texas.

I can say that all the sailors were pretty disappointed that Performance chose not to support the New England package but I'm not sure that it had any real negative effect on the class. My opinion is that the 6.0 class is in a pretty serious downswing at the moment and that the majority of that is due to the Nacra 20's strength in offshore ability and health of it's own class. At least around here, if you're going to sail a 20 footer, the Nacra 20 is the only game in town unless you want to sail by yourself.

^ Jake hit the nail on the head.

We just recently moved from a 6.0 to a N20. I personally felt the N20 was a more complete boat. It was designed from the start with a spinnaker, whereas the 6.0 its always been an "add-on."

When racing head to head against the N20's, it always seemed that we were struggling to get the spinnaker tuned just right. We had custom sails cut for it, made adjustments in every little direction, but in the end, its just smart, I think, to go with a system thats been setup by the factory.

This is not just the age-old debate -- it is also the "old-age" debate, because most of the cat sailors are getting older, along with their boats. That has an influence on the questions they ask and the decisions they make.

I watched the New England 6.0 spinnaker issue with much interest as it showed a strong regional attachment to the boat and a desire to let it evolve somewhat. I was impressed with the NE skippers getting those specs put together. My guess is that Rick Bliss was probably one of the driving forces in getting that done. The existence of the N20 (I20) made by Nacra, however, means that the factory probably won't fully embrace the boat—they have a new boat to sell as their hot 20 footer. My thinking is that with the Fox out of the picture the only 20 foot racing boat Hobie has is the Miracle 20. Since this is Hobie’s representation in this prestigious class it would make some sense to let upgrades happen. Certainly, I recognize that one has to do this very carefully so as to not alienate (by making obsolete) the current H20 owners.

As Keith Chapman and Dave Mosley said it might work to establish some evolutionary and cost effective changes; then apply an adjusted Portsmouth rating to them and allow them to run alongside the current design to allow time for skippers to adopt. If the changes get accepted, they could then become the new specs for the class. Sails get replaced, a spinnaker could be added, and maybe dagger board inserts are not too expensive to consider. Is this practical?

The comp tip may be a problem when considering a square top main; I never thought of that issue. If a new mast were required to enable the sail to perform, I doubt this would work as skippers wouldn't easily be convinced to buy new masts.

SteveT, I know you approved of Matt’s statement that there will be no H20 changes, but, since you are in an area with H20 strength, do you see any scenario where the skippers would support modernization changes to the H20 in order to make Hobie’s 20 footer more competitive?

I’m a business man, so ultimately I know that the factory has to believe changes to the boat will stimulate new boat sales (or significant sales of upgrades) or there is no reason for them to pursue any changes.

I'm happy with the boat the way it is. If I want to sail a 20-foot cat with a spinnaker, I'll get an Inter 20. In a region with a strong H20 fleet, there is no reason to make any changes - beyond very minor ones - as everyone is already sailing an equal boat. I think the H-20 fleet has several seasons left before the Tiger finaly takes over in this area, (I'll probably be one of the first in my fleet to make the switch in 2006).

In the mean time, I don't see any reason to make changes to the class so it's competitive with another brand of boat. As I said in an earlier post, if I want to do more distance races, I'll add a spinnaker or buy a boat designed with one as part of the class.

Is the H20 strong enough to carry a spinnaker now?

Around 1995, I receive my former H20 with a replacement hull, then received 3 replacement hulls from Hobie for a former H20, and had to buy the fourth one, over a period of around 3 years, as they broke one at a time. Hobie always gave me the same reason why it failed. But over three years, one would think they would have changed their excuse or method of construction?

What is the competitive lifespan of a H20 now?

Plenty strong for a spinnaker. A 20 did the Worrell with mast head chute years ago in the roughest year. They used some running backstays I think.

The issue with the 20 hulls failing along the glue seam in the mid 90's was corrected and has not been a problem since. That was a post/hand finishing problem. The finising guys were sanding through the layup trying to fair out the seam because the glue jigs were mis-aligned.

>>The issue with the 20 hulls failing along the glue seam in the mid 90's was corrected and has not been a problem since. That was a post/hand finishing problem. The finising guys were sanding through the layup trying to fair out the seam because the glue jigs were mis-aligned.<<

Matt, what I find incredulus is over the period of THREE years (replacing THREE hulls sequentially),
it took 3 years (& 3 hulls) to figure that out?........IMPRESSIVE

What is funny is EVERY time/year, I replaced a hull, they told me the SAME story you told me for THREE years?

After the THIRD time getting the same story made me wonder, how are those finishing guys keeeping their jobs?

Holiday cheers,
Chris

Chris,
The story about Hobie hull "year" versus the actual year a hull was constructed has been discussed here before.
Supposedly H-Corp. builds large numbers of hulls at a time without serial numbers (look at the hand etched serial numbers on hulls).
As they construct boats, they put the current year serial numbers on the hulls.

Hulls built by one group of incompetants could be used for several years production.

If a company found a group of its products to be defective, they could stop using that product run for production boats, and use the remaining stock as replacements.
Of course that would be rude and tacky (possibly illegal?) and we all know that the GREAT AND BENEFICENT HOBIE CORP would never do that to their loyal customers

There is a great crowd of Hobie 20 sailors in Texas - I think they have made a fleet at nearly every regatta I have been to this year. There are also a few who will put spinnakers on the boat for distance races like the Great Texas Catamaran Race and Ruff Riders. The new Tornado spin seems to be a popular option.

The winner of the Great Texas Cat Race in 2004 was a Hobie 20 with a Tornado spin. The boat had an additional set of stays made from high tech fiber rigged from the top of the comp tip to the side stay anchor plates.

Ruffriders was also won by a different Hobie 20, also with a Tornado spinnaker. (Bag launch in both cases I think).

The Hobie 20 is a glorious boat. Very satisfying to sail and crew on. Contrary to some statements made in this post I have not seen it perform faster upwind than the Nacra 20 (another very fine catamaran). Sailing downwind in 12 or more knots it is great to wild-thing a Miracle 20.

What it lacks is a class legal spinnaker. Once you are used to running a spinnaker downwind on a beach cat I think you are spoiled for life. No matter what the attraction of one design (or formula) racing on non-spinnaker boats, I think the adrenaline trip of running a spin out weighs this.

I think this means an inevitable move from non-spin to spinnaker boats (vive le F18!). Before that happens though, long live the Hobie 20 class in it's current form. And may I propose adoption of the Tornado spin, rigged any way you want as an separate class for distance racing - in the style of the Nacra 6.0NA w/New England spin.

Chris.

P.S. I am sad to report that the Nacra 6.0 NA may be declining in Texas. At least one regular has defected to the Nacra 20 camp.

Now that's what I suspected! The Hobie 20 is a great, non-spin boat, but to attract new owners, I think it must have a spinnaker these days. You make an interesting point about running an extra set of wires from the top of the mast to support it. Also, is the Tornado spin about the same size as the I20/N20 spin (I think about 270 sq. ft.)?

David
H20

The Hobie 20 is a really fun boat minus the spinnaker. H20 fleets are strong in the Midwest and up until last year could be considered the strongest in this area.

To attract more sailors to the H20:

1. Make the boat lighter weight. It is not an easy boat to lug around a beach with two people.

2. Automate some of the adjustments. Waves, H16s and Getaways are popular because they are simple. There are a lot of lines on an H20 and adding a Spin. isn't going to make it more popular.

3. Wings. I don't know if the "Euro-Wings" are avail. for the H20, but wings: A. are comfy & B. Help when in a good blow.

4. Price. The cheaper they can make it, the better.

Flounder, all of your suggestions can easily be handled by just making a remote control model version of the boat that can be operated from a comfortable chair on a dock.

Not being on the boat takes all the fun out of it! ha ha ha.

I have to admit though that those little remote controlled power boats are a lot of fun in a pool.

The h20 is a hoot with a reacher on it. The sail drives the bows down a bit more so you have to shift your weight back but its furling system helps alot. Also can sail upwind in REALLY light air. Have done it have photos and a shirt to prove it.

Steve

Hi David

It sounds like you would like find a consensus among the Hobie 20 racers for some kind of "unoffical class" approved spinaker rig... much like the New England 6.0 nacra group did. The goal of course is to get a level playing field on the race course while providing an unofficial and unsanctioned upgrade path that any H20 sailor could join in and support. If the Texas 20's, who are pre disposed to this kind of tinkering, have landed on a Tornado chute for the boat... you might have the begining of a consensus.

One thing to keep in mind. Texel and ISAF rate spinakers by size relative to the length of the boat and the Tornado chute at 25 sq meter for a 20 foot boat is considered oversized and docked another percent (in Texel ratings at least.) USPN does not regulate spinaker size with respect to rating adjustment (although Darline has long thought that such a thing should be regulated)

Take Care
Mark

Oh, Man! I can't imagine that any of this would make the boat more popular. On the contrary, it would probably sink (pardon the pun) the class. The H-20 is a technical, difficult boat to sail well. It's that challenge that brings people to the fleet. Why else would someone move up from a H16 or TheMightyHobie18, or anything else, if the 20 was less technical and less challenging?

1. When considering lighter weight, consider durability. The boat is already built lighter per foot than the 18.
2.See above
3. My couch is comfy and sailing skill is much more usefull in a big blow.
4. I'll pay for quality.

Don't change a thing. The boat is great the way it is. If you want to race one-design with a spinnaker, get a spin-designed boat. If you want to do distance races, modify a spinnaker for the 20, but any major class-sanctioned changes won't make the fleet more appealing.

Good Post Steve!! I totally agree. I think the H20 class is great the way it is right now. I would hate to see a bunch of changes made to one of the best boats ever produced.

Mike Hill
Tiger #1520

Mike,
Not to be argumentative, but you used to own an H20 and now own a Tiger. Why did you switch? If it was because the class was dying out where you were sailing, how much larger is the Tiger class? In my area it is smaller than our extremely small H20 class. Was it for the spinnaker? Was it to get on an up and coming boat? SteveT says that is why and where he is going in 2006.

Your switching boats and Steve's anticipated switch seem to make my point that, even though the H20 is a wonderful boat and basically the only 20 footer racing without a spinnaker, those facts may not be enough to attract new skippers or even retain current skippers. I could just try to sell the H20 and go out and buy a Tiger, but I would like to stay with the 20 and would like to see the class flourish. Since I don't see any 2 person race boats being developed without spinnakers, that leads me to highly suspect a spinnaker may be needed to keep the boat current. If Hobie had a another 20 foot spin boat (like the I20) I would not see any reason for them to consider a change, in fact I would expect them to phase the Miracle 20 out. Since the above is not the case, I think there is a good argument to be made to consider updating the Hobie 20.

Since Matt says emphatically there are no changes going to be made to the H20, I would ask him what he sees in the future for a top-of-the-line 20 foot racing cat from Hobie. Is the Tiger going to be the top line boat? Is the Miracle going to be the top line boat? (It could; it more than matches the Tiger upwind and with a spin would outrun it downwind.)

David
H20

These boats can race boat for boat, by adding a spin to the Hobie. I can beat some of them and some of them beat me. I'll presume it is sailing skill.
My future wife has no problem with the spin, but we trade off on long runs. Ratchetting blocks are key.
if the Hobies and the inters are raced boat for boat then there is a larger class, and everyone agrees that racing boat for boat is better than racing numbers, (unless the numbers are really in your favor and you do not wish to improve your sailing skill).
my 2 cents. where we sail it is getting harder to attract sailors to race. anything that makes a larger class is good.

I switched for a lot of reasons. I really loved racing the H20 and resisted changing. I also ran a chute on my H20 in some distance races which was fun. Since the H20 was not designed with a spinnaker in mind from the start it suffers from some helm issues under spinnaker.

I switched because I do like sailing with a spinnaker better. Also I saw the class moving to the F18 class Nationwide. I saw the Tiger as giving me lots of alternatives for racing around the country.

And contrary to what some others think in my opinion an H20 can not compete fairly against an I20 in a heads up race. An I20 is simply faster upwind by a good margin. An I20 has a 32 foot mast compared to a 30' 6" mast. It simply has a more powerful engine. I'm sure an I20 is also faster downwind but I don't have any personal experience to base that on.

Mike Hill
Tiger #1520

David I used to drive a H20 about 4 years ago, and I also wrote Matt asking him if Hobie would consider changing the sail plan to be more competitive with the N60 (the hot boat at the time). He gave me gave me exactly same answer he has given here. At the time I was a little put out by his response. Now in hindsight (many years later) I can appreciate Matt's position and his support of the class. I'll be the first one to admit I have an issue or two with Hobie and Mr. Miller, but I really do respect their position when it comes to preserving a one design class (still love on the Hobie edict though Matt).

As you have also pointed out the H20 is one of the last 20’, sloop, non spin, and two up boats left. I’d be willing to bet a large portion of the folks sailing the H20 are rather one design centric and aren’t looking for the kind of changes to the boat you are proposing (otherwise they would have left by now). You have yourself a very nice niche, try to exploit it! Not every team wants to run a spin around the cans and as several people including you have stated you can always put a spin on the boat and have a competitive distance racer.

Just because the H20 isn’t the bell of the ball anymore doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a lot of fans out there. The TheMightyHobie18 Magnum has made a respectable comeback in FL, and for a while the H14 was pretty hot. If for some reason Matt has a complete break down and allows the H20 to be modified as you propose, I’d bet a case of Mt. Gay the H20 will join the ranks of the P19MX and NE60/N60 inside a year.

One more thing, if Matt had allowed the sail plan changes I wanted way back when I would have left anyway. I had/have a serious hard on for the N20.

Dave

Some ramblings...

The differences between the H20 and the P19 and NE 6.0 are that the P19 class was pretty much already dead when the MX rig showed up, and the NE 6.0 seems to be dying for just the reason folks would like to see Hobie update the 20 - it sounds like they're going to the I20 because it has a factory rig that includes the spin instead of having to cobble something together.

The 20 is still a viable boat in some areas, and even if you don't add the spin, some updates to the rest of it just may help keep things going and fresh. I always got the feeling with Hobie that once a boat is designed and built, that's it, no updates to the class. After awhile it feels like a joke.

So Hobie is left with no viable answer to the N20, and until they can find another boat to import, they won't. And by viable answer to the N20 I don't mean something that will necessarily run head to head with it, but something that will at least capture sailor's imaginations enough to stay with the Hobie. From a new boat perspective, I'd see little reason to buy one over a Tiger, except that at my weight and size I like a 20 foot boat, so it would be N20 for me if I wanted a spin.

At the point I sold my 20 I was contemplating adding a spinnaker, not because of any illusions of catching I20s, it was just because I really liked sailing with a spin. I was a bit hesitant regarding the hull strength, as my boat had previously had a repair to the infamous hull problem - it had been repaired with no problems showing anymore, but I didn't want to push it.

I liked the feeling of the 20, it's pretty and it's responsive and balanced and quick, but it wasn't up to the speed of a 6.0 with no spin, and the 6.0 holds crew weight better. The first time I powered through chop without slapping the crossbeams and tramp in the water I knew that even though I missed the 20 I was happy with the new boat. But, if the 20 had the speed potential near the 6.0 I probably would have stuck with it.

So maybe there's an idea for the 20 foot non-spin boats - try to get some parity among them through updates and sail heads up in a non-spin formula class as well as in one-design. I'd bet you could update the H20 with mods that could fold back into the class, and give it dual life, and breath some life into some dying classes.

I've always felt that with dying-class boats that there was an opportunity for an owner's group to form a non-factory class association and take the boats where the factory won't. This could happen - the NE 6.0 guys had something like that going, but it's now faltering. I think in the end, the basis of strength for these kinds of things would come from people willing to breath new life into older boats because they don't want to spend the cash for a new one, or are just big fans of the particular design. But it also relies on something else that is a big soap-box issue for me - you need enough sailors. Here I'll get off topic, sorry.

We're still in the game of moving sailors from one class to the next. In the end, one class thrives and another one dies. Maybe that's just the way it will be, some sailors are always going to move around, and why shouldn't they? But if we continue to bring new sailors into the sport, the variety might thrive and might indeed be the reason the new sailors come in.

So, new blood, new blood, new blood, new blood. With new sailors comes the critical mass to keep existing classes alive and keep new ones growing. David - spec out some changes to the 20, and pump it up not just among the existing sailors but to new blood - "here's a great bang for the buck alternative, find out if you like cat sailing without buying a new N20" kind of a thing.

In our area the A-Cats are the growing class, and with good reason. And some people have traded in their whatever boats to go there. But we've also gotten some mono converts, and we're always looking for the next batch of people to join the WRCRA to take the spots the A-Cats might leave behind.

Why am I saying this? Because the H20 is a nice boat and I think an upgrade would be great, but no upgrade is going to change an I20 sailor back. But it might make a great alternative to somebody who hasn't gone there yet, and that person might be the fresh blood - whether the upgrade is something Hobie offers or some other package of specs. The Hobie 20 is not unique here, I think the 18 could still be used in such a manner, but it would take some vision. And you'd have to remember that the target is new blood.

As a relatively new 6.0 sailor, I have to admit I'm disappointed that the NE scene doesn't seem to be working out, it's something I would have moved my boat towards. But we've got three 6.0s in our club, who knows, maybe the Chesapeake 6.0 spec is next...

Ramble mode off, Happy New Years to all!

Keith, David

Hobie does make a 20'spin boat called the Hobie Fox. The boat just did not seem to do well in the US when they cut the mast and put a comp-tip on it.

I don't know about others, but the Fox just never caught my fancy.

The H20 is a nice boat. The Fox is a nice boat too but not nice enough to bait the H20 guys into making a fresh investment. Although I am a "B Fleet" sailor, there have been many times that I have hung in there with the rock stars until I made a fatal error, always my fault, not the boats'.

The problem with the Fox (with apologies for drifting a bit off topic) is that Hobie brought over a F20 spec boat and had it compete with the I20 which had more sail area for the lighter US winds (i.e. it wasn't a F20 spec boat at that point). The I20 had a head start in the market, and Hobie comes along with the Fox which is slower on the race course...result is no one bought them. Its an odd marketing decision on Hobie's part, especially when we see them willing to allow the Tiger to be not strictly spec'd for F18.

So Hobie has no top-of-the-line spin boat. The choices are:
1. Consider the Tiger the top line boat and don't worry about competing with the I20
2. Bring back the Fox with US mods so it can go head to head with the I20
3. Modify the H20 so it could go head to head with the I20 (some may not think this possible with the current platform, but, anything's possible).
4. Design a totally new boat. Not likely, but, again, anything's possible.

What do the rest of you think? Every manufacture has a top line boat in their line up. This should be the prestige boat in the line. And in racing, you want that top boat to be able to kick a** on the race course. How would you advise Hobie on this issue?

David
H20 (still ruminating, 'cause its still winter)