catsailing in trouble?

I have heared that cat sailing is decresing in some geographic areas. If so what areas is it decreasing and any reasons why? Also does anyone know of the geographic areas in which cats sailing in growing fairly rapidly?

Tom

[quote]I have heared that cat sailing is decresing in some geographic areas. If so what areas is it decreasing and any reasons why? Also does anyone know of the geographic areas in which cats sailing in growing fairly rapidly?[quote]

First of all everything is cyclical to some degree but I fear there is little hope for a comeback here. In our area (Southern California) the sport is all but non existent
due to the following reasons:

1: In most areas you are not allowed to store a recreational vehicle where it can be seen from the street. This means you will need to pay between $140 and $225 a month to store you boat in a mast down area some distance from the beach which opens at 8AM and closes at 6PM.

2: Time- It takes quite a while to drive from your house to where you boat is stored, sign out the boat, drive to one of three launch ramps in all of LA and Orange counties that allow sailboats and set up, get launched and sail for a few hours before you need to tear down and get back before 6PM. No beach storage is allowed overnight.

3: The water here is 54'F in the winter and 62-68 in the summer. Cold by most standards. There really are no lakes as this is a desert. What lakes there are do not allow water contact of any type and generally catamarans are not allowed on them as they are potable water sources.

Lastly the sprot of sailing is almost non existent here due to pressures from mass appeal events like:

Theme parks- There are 7 of them within 100 miles of here.
PWC and power boats- Turn a key and you are yachting
Extreme sports- Dirt Bikes, off road etc
Soccer, football, cheerleading, baseball etc etc along with professional sports teams.
Snow skiing and Snowboarding is an hour and a half a away.
and on and on.

I love the sport and still do it when I can. I will be buying a beachcat this spring to introduce my 11 year old to the sport and if she likes it we'll move up to something like a Reynolds 33.

It's a tough market out here and I hope this gives you a peek into why there is not a single Hobie Dealer or NACRA/Prindle/INTER dealer in Los Angeles...a city of some 17 million people.

Scary.

Mark Michaelsen
Luv dem beachcats

Oh, Mark, I didn't realize it was that bad in your area! What about yacht clubs that allow beach cats? And is the situation any better in San Diego? What about other parts of California?

Access to the water seems to be one of the biggest problems contributing to the decline of beach-cat sailing. Along with, as Mark said, local regulations that do not allow you to store your cat in your yard unless it is out of sight; and the high costs and inconvenience of storing it somewhere else.

Ironically and unfortunately, the places that have the most ideal sailing conditions are also the places where access to the water is increasingly closed off by resorts and condos or government regulations.

I just found out today that Gilbert's Resort here in the Keys, where we are holding this year's Tradewinds Regatta, will no longer be available for any sailing activity after June of 2005 because they are turning the whole place into private townhouses.

Nice warm water then.

Our little part of Texas (Houston/Galveston area) is holding it's own. Lots of public access to beachs, camping allowed at our favorite venue (the texas city dike) - and fires tolerated. Warm water and weather. Home owners associations are a pain in the butt though - 5 letters this year and I don't even keep the boat out side the house - just repairs/upgrades on the drive sometimes. Still, there is lots of land here so we are probably going to move out of the burbs and get a place to abandon as many boats as we like in the long grass!

We have restarted the local fleet and have a pretty good social scene. Life is good. Sorry to hear about the conditions in California. Leave the fruit and nuts behind and move to Texas!

was it your home owners association that wrote the letters?

That would irritate the everliving crap out of me.

Maugan, you have an education, a job, a boat and a woman, so next step will be a house. If you want to keep the boat, be sure to check for covenants and home owner association rules before you buy in a platted subdivision. We avoid those places. One development down here tells you what type and color of mailbox you have to use.

But even if you are not in a development or subdivision, there can be government regulations. For instance, in our county, I have heard there is a law that says no more than one boat is allowed per residence. We plead ignorance, because we have seven on our property. We probably should cover them with camouflage tarps.

Fortunately, everybody in the Keys has at least one boat, so they don't seem to enforce the law. The code enforcement people are too busy finding people with illegal living quarters on the ground floor of stilt houses.

Oh I'm fully aware of the convenants and their purpose. I live in a house now, and have had to drag the 17 up in the neighborhood a couple times to work on it, and I was just itching for someone to come say something to me. Nothing ever was, but thats probably because we have a good relationship with the neighbors.

Sorry for the thread divergence.

It's not really a thread divergence, because not being able to keep your boat on your property is almost as bad as not being able to keep your boat on a beach or not having access to the water. All these things hurt cat sailing.

A good sailing buddy of mine purchased a powerboat (gasp) and put it in his backyard. He knew he had a pretty strict neighborhood covenant. He has a 6' tall wood fence around his backyard but you could see about 6" of the bimini over the center console over the fence. He got a letter and offered to add 6" to the top of his fence where the boat wouldn't be visible anymore....nope - his fence is already at maximium neighborhood height! We ended up digging two 10" deep holes in his backyard for the trailer tires to sit in. I too will avoid neighborhoods with such rules.

I can't undertsand the problem of neighbors or passers by being able to see a boat on someones property.
I live in wales and there is no regulation (that I know of) that states that your boat must not visable to the public
Does anyone even know the reason why that regulation was even enforced?
Personally I think boats (especially beach cats) livens up an area.

Tom

Seems strange - you can own more firearms than a small country but you have to hide a boat in case it lowers the tone of the neighbourhood!

Doesn't that infringe your constitutional right to bear away?

The problem with boats parked in a driveway versus a cat with sails up on the beach is that the driveway version looks like crap. Beach cats and other boats on trailers are about as pretty as parking a semi or broken down,rusty old cars. That's the principle behind those rules. The same with a 30 foot blue tarp that you can see from your back yard. I know it woudn't bother me, but I can see how it could bother someone who paid for a nice view from their yard.

Unfortunately all those things make neighborhoods look shabby, and that ultimately affects the property values.

I am on my 4th catamaran in the course of about 20 years. TheMightyHobie18, H21SE, H20 and now the ARC21. I have seen myself change from a pleasure sailor that raced occasionally to a racer that rarely sails for pleasure. Maybe it is just the fact that I am growing older but I can tell you that the beach scene in Miami is nothing like what it used to be. We used to have 5 - 10 boats on the beach every weekend and no racing, it was screwing around in Biscayne Bay, hull flying contests, BBQ's and family. Now we get 5 - 15 boats once a month for the races and nothing in between. We show up, execute the race and then pack it up and go home. It seems that we have gotten away from the "Hobie" way of life in South Florida. Too much emphasis on racing. As I sit here, I realize that although I do enjoy racing, I enjoy participation and the social aspect of cat sailing more than the competition.
Anyway. I think I will try to find a small cat for my 17 year old and teach him and his girlfreind how to sail for pleasure.

Happy new Year,

Eric

Arbo, with that view, the neighbors could never complain!

David

Eric,
You can thank John McKnight for the fact that there is ANY catamaran racing going on in Miami right now. He has singlehandedly built the fleet back up from almost nothing.

If you and others want to do fun sailing in an organized way with the group, then ORGANIZE it. John has been doing this all by himself for several years and he has to build the fleet racing schedule around his flying schedule. Nobody offers to help him with the newsletter or putting on the races or anything. So now you want him to somehow come in off the water and provide beer and barbecue so you can have some camaraderie afterwards?

John organizes the racing because he wants to have people to race against. So, if you think there is too much emphasis on racing, why don't you take over the task of organizing fun-sailing days? Or why don't you organize a fun time for after the races? Things like that don't just happen in a void. It takes a catalyst and helpers.

As far as why there isn't more social aspect, that is a direct result of the fact that women are no longer involved, either sailing or on the beach.

The women left along with the Hobie 16's and the Hobie 18's. So, yes, the Hobie Way of Life is gone in some parts of the country because it was built around male-female teams and one-design racing.

San Diego is still free, free... free. Plenty of places to launch and beach a cat. Nice beach-lined bay (Mission Bay) and easy access to the ocean.

If you visit Mission Bay you would think that (other than Mission Bay Yacht Club sailing events) the sailing scene has really slowed down. That goes for all kinds of boats, boards, not just cats.

mary,
I have to agree with your points.
What you have described is the destruction of camaraderie.

It is partly caused by the whiners who complain about the lack of events and the way they are being staged.
They feel they are entitled to attend events without doing anything to support the sport.
They attend events and then insult the people who worked hard to stage an event
by complaining that it doesn't meet their standards.
This ruins the experience for the people who are trying to have a good time.

Another issue is the boats themselves.
Like you said, when the fleet consists of low tech beach boats with similar performance,
the skippers can relate to each other.
But today, the casual sailors on their inexpensive beach boats get looked down upon and
ridiculed by the hot dogs on their 20-21 foot rocket ships.
Who wants to sit around at the end of the day hearing some schmuck who has more money than skill,
brag about how fast his boat is?

The Hobie-centric edits from commandant ulibari are proving, as we all said they would,
to erode the ranks of Hobie fleets and alienate potential sailors.

So as long as ther are people out there who;
continually complain about how other people run their events, but never get off their lazy dead butt,
claim they design perfect boats and critisize the design of other boats,
take advantage of other peoples events, but are too elitist to invite others to their events,
work to exclude certain members of the sailing community from participating sinply because of the brand of their boat,
the sport will continue to decline!!!

We make the sport.
If it declines, it is our fault.

Move to Tybee... Great sailing, really warm water most of the year, good sea breeze, leave your boat on the beach if you want, in the front yard if you want, eveybody supports sailing here...

Chuck's the city Marshall in charge of code enforcement and he keeps Team Tybee's boat in his front yard along with the ground crew trailer... no problems

It's a great place to live and sail... the real big plus is that everyone gets along. On one side of you is a multi-millionaire and the other side is your surfing buddies who struggle to get by but were all friends.

Heck, Sandra Bullock brings her dog and reads to the elderly at the assisted living home here and nobody hassles her... except maybe "Maughan17" when he visits but that's another story

I lived in Huntington Beach, California growing up before moving to Hawaii and what Michael was saying is true about SoCal and especially the competition for our time and attention.

I saw an earlier post about someone wanting to do a lifestyle movie on the order of "Step into Liquid" about Cat Sailing. I think that is a great idea if someone can pull it off. Brian Karr's DVD was really cool and the Feldman's have some really great footage and interviews... it just needs to go to the next level that can somehow translate what cat sailing is all about to the non-sailor or even non catsailor the way surfing has successfully marketed the surfing lifestyle and vibe.

Keep sailing and surfing... stay wet in 2005!

Jim Stone
Tybee Island (Full-time now)

Good points regarding the "racing scene" and camraderie. I do have to say that the camraderie is really good during events like the Tybee 500. I also started racing Finns and they have an excellent class vibe, but I see other classes that are not so supportive and fun.

I agree Hobie made a big mistake with their "Exclusion edict" last year.

I believe however, the growth has to be more than building up racing to get the numbers where they should be. Look at cycling... There are only about 40,000 registered racers in the entire US, of those maybe only 5,000 that are Category 1 or 2, yet there are millions of people that participate in fun rides on $1,000 - $7,000 bikes every year. Surfing the same way... I compete in ESA surfing contests but there are 20 non-competitive surfers to every ESA, NSSA, or Pro surfer out there at least. The hook is the "fun" and the sense that it is a cool lifestyle.

I surf, sail, and ride my bike because it is fun... first and foremost! I've raced and competed in all these sports because I personally enjoy the competition and the challenge to get better but if it stops being fun why spend the time and money?

I really think sailing and Cat sailing is missing the emphasis on "fun" and we need to develop events like the Runners and cyclists have (5K/10K/ Marathon - 25/50/100 mile)that allow for a sense of accomplishment but that the competitive stakes are not so high... you can do it strictly for fun to say you did it or you can run as fast as you can and see how good you really are...

I better go... I'm really out of shape and have a big race coming up May 8th... got to train

Jim Stone
Pirates of the Tybeean (Racing Team)

Mary,
Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed? John is awesome, I applaud his efforts.
The point that I was getting at is that we never had to "organize" anything, it just happened naturally. Everyone brought their own coolers and grills, we set up shade and chairs, we sailed all day long, in and out taking different people and making freinds. There was no need to organize it, it just happened, every weekend. Before anybody flames me let me say that I am just pointing out MY PERCEPTION of the differences between "now" and the "past".
The other point I was attempting to make was that I don't think that people get into sailing to start racing, I think the recreation and leisure sailors create a pool from which the racers emerge. Not 100% of course, and maybe not even the majority but The original thread was talking about the decline of cat sailing, not the decline of "racing".

And Mary, I never said that John should and I would never, ever, ever expect John to come out of his pocket with even one penny to provide me or anyone else beer or food, and I certainly would never ask (expect) him to come off the water to do do anyting other than relax.

Perhaps there should be a paradigm shift in our approach to enticing people into this wonderful leisure time activity.

Sam,
I hope you haven't directed the whiner term towards me, it does irk me when people complain without contributing.

Not everyone can help with organizing events based on personal cirumstances and other limitations so these people should zip their lips and keep the destructive comments to themselves. I can tell you that I never heard anyone complain about non fleet social gatherings at the beach on any given Sunday.

Eric,
what you describe is alive and well in Fort Lauderdale Beach, with the Hobie 16 fleet there. They meet every Sunday, hang out, drink, sail,race. Unfortunately (and this is my experience only) is that Rickenbacker Causeway is not very family friendly these days. My wife and Kids love to go to the beach, but when I suggest Rickenbacker causeway They're all like "oh no, not THERE!!" The beach is full of broken glass and debris, and their only memories from there are the cuts and scrapes they got every time they went. The scene stinks too. Once you're sailing, it's beautiful, but hanging out on the beach there is a little tough to chew.

Ft. Lauderdale, on the other hand is a beautiful sandy beach, and nice people. The downside, is the sailing is nowhere as nice, and the 50 yard drag of the catamaran from trailer to beach through the soft sand can be a little bit of a pain (esp. at the end of the day going uphill).

Except for that line above I agree with everything Jim has said. Tybee is a cat-sailors dream IMHO. It offers everything you could want and couldn't find nicer people around either.

And Jim, Don't get in between me and Sandra right now, that was during a low-point in our relationship. Now its all good. Did you see that new Chopper I rode in on the other day?

Fred, you are so right about Rickenbacker. It used to be a Hobie haven until the undesireables came in. Perhaps it just needs to be reclaimed.

i used to bring a rake with me to clean the area I was in and to hopefully set a good example.

How much trouble would I encounter at Ft. Lauderdale with the Arc21?

Sailing in our area has picked up on two fronts:

1. WindSurfing has doubled in the past 3 years. Plus a couple of them have purchased H16s.
2. Hobie Getaways out number everything except for H16s. 90% of the Getaway owners are new sailors here.


From 1995-2001 we were in big decline for a number of reasons:
1. The State of SD leased our beach out to the same guy that ran the main marina. He raised beach slips 300% in 3 years to run us out.

2. Older guys focused on other things other than sailing for a while.

3. No younger people.

4. Fleet didn't host an big events for atleast 5 years.

A few things that have re-grown our group:

1. We petitioned the state to take back the beach. They came through and cut out slip fees by 2/3rds. The state parks dept. is our biggest supporter and groom the beach weekly.

2. Thanks to geezers like my dad that took people for rides on his Wave and Getaway, new Getaway owners now out number everyone except H16 owners.

3. The fleet got their act together and hosted two bigger events in the past 4 years. Both times the wind was huge and word spread. All the old-timers came back and brought a few new faces.

4. The joining of the big-boat marina people and our beach community. More people = more power. Now when the big mono's have their races they plead for a couple of us to join them. Total, all out open class fun.

Added note:

Hobie class racing is decling, but slightly. In 2000 it was in horrible shape. Then made a come back.

I think the future really hindges on the factory. The H20 and H16 are the race boats here. If the H20 is cut off, I think most guys will go back to the H16 rather than the Tiger.

In fact the best sailors, in my opinion, in the Division are sailing H16s. They like the simplicity of the boat and the fact that the playing field is pretty even boat-wise.

Hobie needs to get a phase out plan for the H16 and replace it with a modern 16-18 footer. Something easy to setup that can race. There has to be a middle ground between HT and an H16.

There is the challange Hobie! Replace your cash cow with something new, flexible and more exciting.

Are you the same guy who came up with the New Coke idea?

[quote

How much trouble would I encounter at Ft. Lauderdale with the Arc21? [/quote]

Yeah, that's the only thing... They don't take kindly to non 16 sailors. They will try to talk you into buying one, for sure! But all kidding aside, there are other boats that sail from there also. There's even one of the CABB sailors that goes there regularly (with the A Class catamaran).

No idea what you mean by Coke, but I am sure you are being sarcastic.

As long as the H16 is the face of Hobie, Hobie Cat will look dated. There is no way around it.

No more dated looking than all the biggest one-design classes in the world.

You must be too young to remember. New Coke was probably the biggest marketing failure of all time.
The moral of the story: If it ain't broke don't fix it.

I'm 30.

"Ain't broke don't fix it"... famous last words.

Translation: "Living on borrowed time".

Question: Are Optimists, Lightnings, Flying Scots, Thistles and Lasers (I'm sure I missed a bunch here) living on borrowed time?

While I love technology and change, I'm not sure it applies to Hobie and their H16 - particularly when you have so many die-hards out there.

Bill Nieuwkerk
N6.0

"Die-hards" -- Translation: Love for the boat and loyalty to the class.

Not enough of those values around these days.

Well said Mary

See my earlier post on (Sailing Anarchy One Design Survey Results ( Pages 1 2 all ) )

I think you are missing his point.

His opinion concerns attracting new sailors. His point is that that the colors, shape, marketing etc don't appeal to the target market, 18 to 30 somethings who don't sail anything right now.

Your point of view is from a one design RACERS perspective.

IMO, I don't think many first time buyers who were introduced to a cat while at a resort are concerned with the racing class presence or absence.

When I went to the Annapolis boat show MANY years ago with the goal of buying a 16 foot cat. 5 boats were on display each marketed quite differently. Isotope marketed their 16 as family cruiser. (not interested). Prindle marketed their boat as a better sailing boat then the hobie 16 and faster upwind. (I was interested in better sailing since my previous experience with a hobie 16 rental which had a huge amount of weather helm) Hobie marketed their boat as the Hobie life style and great one design racing fleets around the country. (The Hobie lifestyle crap was just that... with a capitol C.... the racing fleet stuff did not register because I was just not interested in racing. They did not do a great job with my issue of the weather helm) Nacra only had pictures of their 5.0. (they were showing a 5.8) Dart had a very racy classy looking boat and marketed it as a single hander... double hander with ISAF approval, they also mentioned a great rudder system. (I had never heard of a Dart before the show and was very suspicious. I was leaning towards the Prindle 16.)

In the end, Only Dart scheduled a test sail at Sandy Point... Nacra showed up with a 5.0 at the Sandy Point beach and also offered rides (pissed the hell out of the Dart guy). I sailed both and liked and bought a Dart (which I still sail and race solo for kicks... damn those sails are old.)

My biggest concern at the time was (parts and support) since the importer was in Conn and the boat was made in England. In the end... there was a US Dart Class (Thanks to the Fondricks and 3 or 4 local very good Dart rec sailors, one of whom acted as an agent for the boat and they continued to sail at Sandy Point for several years. (Its the only public launch site.) The Hobie 16 racing fleet never sailed out of Sandy Point for races or recreation and I did not meet these folks until several years later.

For me... if I am a new person looking into buying a new boat... I want to know about the support that is around for me... that means a physical dealer who will answer all of my dumb questions and not make me feel dumb. In today's lingo... a user group exists... just won't cut it.. no matter how well meaning it's members are.

I don't have an opinion about whether a H16 looks hot or old... I just don't think that a one design racing fleet means much for new would be cat sailors.

I also think that most new sailors are not looking at their boat as entry into a new social scene... They want to sail with their family and friends.

(I think that such a structure is critical to keeping people interested in sailing a cat... so maybe some education may be needed about why join a cat club.)

Take Care
Mark

Mark,
I don't know why you associate belonging to a class with racing. There are many people who belong to class associations and do not race. They belong just because they love their boat and want to support the class association. And, because they love their boat, they want other people to be introduced to that boat and love it, too.

I don't know why it so difficult for people to understand how people can actually be in love with a particular class of boat and have no desire to keep switching to newer and younger and more beautiful designs.

Hi Mary,

Why do I associate class with racing?

Because for the most part... that's what the class does!
The volunteers who make the class activities happen are not running beach parties... they organize racing. The racing is the core of its being. Its what it spends time and money on.

I agree that organizations exist for people who love their type of boats...eg the Catalina owners association. They run raft ups etc.

What beach cat class organization do you have in mind that does not center around racing?

Mark

This last summer, I raced my H17 in 66 OD races (Could have raced 74). The fleet size ranged from 9 to 24 and I did not drive more than 3 hours from home or go to the nationals. Thats not bad, I sure hope we can keep it going. 05 is looking good with some new div 11 regattas planned and the nationals in Rehobeth.

Mark,

I would agree with you that at the regional and national level, class associations are primarily geared towards racing. It's what connects us all together.

However, at the local (fleet) level, the emphasis should be on recreation, not racing. In my own Hobie Fleet (276 - Detroit), I saw the fleet fade away as the only time we got together was to race. The beginners got tired of following me and Stan Woodruff around the course and went away.

In our recent reincarnation, we have purposely stayed away from the racing aspect - despite the fact the core group is about 80% hard-core racers. We get together at least every other week (½ price pints at the Moose Preserve!). In the winter, we have something to keep us connected at least once a month (skiing, bowling, party). In the summer, we have fun sails sandwiched in between the Division 10/16/CRAM schedules.

We keep it upbeat, we bring out the kids and hand out all kinds of free advice, spare parts, etc., etc.

Our dealer provides a modicum of support. He's given us a couple of demo boats to play with for a day (Wave, Getaway). But he's a Flying Scot guy. (I think I'm finally going to get him to race with me on the Tiger this summer - boy, is he in for an eye-opener!)

We've managed to attract a bunch of people who want to know how to sail their boats better; who want to know how to get rid of that nasty weather helm on their old 16. We've dragged a couple along to major events as crews and gotten them hooked.

Bottom line - it's up to the local (Fleet) level to feed the racing program through the recreational aspect. It's still part of the class association.

Hi Matt

I don't think we disagree here. My definition of a fleet would be the same definition for a club EG. an organization that supports catamaran sailors in their area in what they want to do: Race, Teach, fun sail, Ski etc, etc.

A class exists for sailors to come together and agree on a single set of rules to play a game with.

I am impressed with your energy to accomplish the following

"In our recent reincarnation, we have purposely stayed away from the racing aspect - despite the fact the core group is about 80% hard-core racers. "

Wow. I applaud your effort in sustaining that mission. I agree with you that its really an important technique to grow interest in cat sailing and down the road, interest in the sport as well. I must say I haven't seen a lot of racers willing to accomodate such recreational goals. I personally, just don't have any energy or interest in organizing those kinds of activities.

I also know that my interest in racing grew from playing with and chasing and catching friends on their boats. I believe this is where you catch the bug... and your sailing activity instantly becomes a sport.

I know my attitude is not part of the solution here. In my defense I must say, the monohull dinghy clubs in Annapolis focus on their core mission as racing clubs. Some will give you the boot if you are not participating in their programs. They will not be a pleasant spot for your boat storage/marina launch needs. They will send you off to a marina for those services.

Take Care
Mark

Mark,

i appreciate your point of view, focus on sailing and having fun and people will come. Racing is not for everyone, but having fun is.

Forest Gump

It's been a while since I've signed on, but our sailing Fleet on Lake Erie in Western New York is doing fine. We seem to have a nice social scene; have beach storage and access for less than $400 per year; and have a full range of 35 boats (5 new H Tigers, some 20 year old H-16s).

The biggest problem we have now is trying to decide if we'll continue to call ourselves a Hobie Fleet if we decide to not run an open fleet (three non-Hobie boats) in our annual regatta which attracts around fifty boats. This last action has pitted brother against brother; if the anti-Hobie crowd wins, we'll have to discontinue our annual regatta because at the most we'll only attract fifteen outside boats. What will happen to us then when we stop racing?

Wyatt

Wyatt, what do mean "if the anti-hobie crowd wins"?

Are you saying that if you have an open fleet at your "Hobie" regatta, the Hobie people won't go? I could not have understood that right, could I? If so, it's a strange land you live in.

Dave

If the only thing that you change is to delete the term Hobie points on the front of your NOR, why do you think people won't come to your regatta?

Mark

Wyatt,
I don't understand the problem. If you have enough Hobies in your area to have a successful regatta with Hobie-only (and you probably do), why would you alter that just to accommodate three non-Hobie boats?

Are you saying that the other Hobies from other fleets in the area will not come to your regatta if you have an open class? If that is the case, I would say it is a no-brainer -- just don't have an open class.

Wyatt,
Interesting that three people at the same time read your post the same way -- that other Hobie sailors will boycott your regatta if you have an open class.

Hi Mary

I suspect that his club has three members who race at the regatta that they help to put on and they don't have Hobie's. They would not be happy with loosing their race.

From a financial point of view... its a no brainer... from a club and/or philosophical point of view... he has a problem in his club.

Wyatt have you guys thought about running two regattas. One regatta with an open class that is steeply discounted and subsidized by the one Hobie only regatta. You could give a fleet discount to your club members and charge the visiting sailors the premium to cover the costs of running two regattas. (Usually the time and energy to run two events is a lot to ask of a small club though.)

Still puzzled why a sailor would not return to a pleasent well run event that they have been participating in for years.

Good Luck
Mark

But, Mark, if they are a Hobie fleet, I would think they would not be allowed to have non-Hobie members.

Actually the 'edict' didn't go that far. It only says that if you are having a "Hobie" event that you cannot allow non-Hobies to race. Nobody has said anything about not allowing them to join. I'm still sore about how I was a paid member and was told that I wouldn't be allowed to race anymore....where's my refund? ...actually my membership expired before things actually came to be.

To understand the Hobie Class Association, HCA, and IHCA position on One-Design Regattas, read the Jan-Feb Issue of Hobie Class News. Several articles that explain the issues very well.

Caleb Tarleton

Jake,
That was not part of the "edict," but it has always been the case, as far as I know, that Hobie fleets are only for Hobie sailors. That is why a number of fleets have converted to multiple-class, umbrella organizations, like CABB in the Miami area and TBCS in the Tampa Bay area -- so they could be more inclusive.

Our Hobie Fleet 36 is a part of CABB, but right now it only has two or three members, whereas CABB includes a large assortment of boats.

I am not a fan of 1-design racing personally. Though comparing any other beachcat racing association to Hobie's is laughable inside the US. Hobie has a pretty good infustructure and loyal following. I see why they have made the changes they have made. They did it because they can. Because they know NAMSA, Performance and the other small associations can't compete yet.

Bottom line is the far majority of boat owners don't race. Every fleet in our area includes any boat, not just Hobies. As far as I know, you can not have a "HCA Points Regatta" that includes other boats outside of the Hobie farm. That being said, and currently how the HCA championships are conducted, very few if any Hobie fleets around here care about points other than for seasonal bragging rights.

The majority of boat owners do not race and are willing to support the fleet activities reguardless of brand association. Fleets are social clubs first and brand oriented last. HCA points are arguably unimportant at the national level, but the HCA does provide a national network.

The Hobie Cat News is online at http://www.hobiecat.com/hobieclass
For the sailors that do not receive this information, you can read this publication online.

Caleb Tarleton

Thanks for the link to the newsletter - they've done a great job with the layout! I'm not exactly receiving that document anymore.

Please note, however, that the existing regattas listed in the newsletter for "Hobie Division 9" will welcome x-boats including a sizable mixed F18 fleet and will be held under the blanket of a different organization.

I would like to point anyone that shares this impression to the "rules download" section available on NAF18.com where you'll find such details like; explicit limits on sail materials, explicit rule limits regarding construction materials, foils, masts, etc.....The sail material limitations were just instated at the end of last year which should give you a clear indication that F18, as an international organization, is very interested in keeping costs low and preventing "buying a win".

NAF18 rules downloads

Who is Doug Skidmore ? And can Hobie Corp USA please make up its mind ?

Everytime around Texel and the F18 worlds we can see the various who is who like mr Miller posting overjoyed that the Hobie Tiger, afterall all those years since 1994, is still at the top of it game while only months later we are subjected to warnings how that the same F18 class will get out of control and blow up.

F18 has been around since the early 90's, professional sailors (80 % of them are on Hobies payroll) have been in the class since 1998. The class is still around and booming all over the place and the only organisation/persons that are BUYING victories is/are ?

The Hobie Cat Corporation ! (do I really need to name all top sailors on Hobie's payroll ?)

And even then, at best, their hold on victories is strenious as Boulogne's win on Cirrus F18 in 2003 and Taipan F18 Texel win in 1999 show. I think the current Dutch champion sails a Nacra F18. I can look up more race results when needed.

I think it to be a very sad day when a big company like Hobie needs to scare customers to their products. "Buy a Tiger else you loose out in F18 !" ; "Buy a OD Hobie else go down with the demise of the Open/formula classes when they implode" ; "Buy a Hobie or you won't be able to race when we ban all non-hobies from local events!"

A very sad day indeed !

And then to put insult to injury we have Hobie corp screeming at the top of their longs in "cat sailing in trouble" thread that everything is just dandy and that their products are saving the day. Man ! I have not even seen a getaway, twixxy, doddy, daddy or whatever those rubber boats they offer are called, ANYWHERE in Europe except 1 time. And that was a Hobie wave for sale as a secondhander at the Hobie dealor. So, how do we grow cat sailing on those boats when none will ever come out to events and mix it up with the rest of us. (Sorry Rick, I fully understand the exceptional work you do with the waves in the USA, but you are very much alone I fear).

What a load of BS some of these guys peddle about. And yes you can take me to court on that statement. I'll make you blush all over your face with some hard evidence you won't see in the Hobie way of life monthlies.

If I were mr Skidmore I would think long and hard WHY Cat sailing in Europe is BIG (and so much bigger than in the USA) and why European open class events dwarf all others including Hobie events. (Don't make me quote participation data on Europen Hobie events.)

And than lets have him say one more time that : "The end is NEAR ! and we're all gonna die if we don't repent !".

Been hearing that one since the early 90's out of the mouths of the various European old Hobie gits ! You would think that after 15 years of being wrong they would get it.

So again. Who exactly is Doug Skidmore ?


Wouter

P.S. got my flame suit on and a water hoose ready to fire, so make my day Hobie's !

Wouter writes: "Hobie corp screeming at the top of their longs in "cat sailing in trouble"...?

Huh? Where did you read any of that in this thread?

Jake,

Thanks for the compliment on the layout It looks hard, but it really isn't. I'm genuinely enjoying the work on the magazine - now. (Ask me if I'm having fun a year from now )

Division 9's schedule came in at the very last minute (They had their meeting on 12/4, deadline was 12/7.) Lloyd Graves got me the schedule the day I uploaded the files to the printer. I asked him which ones were going to be HCA sanctioned events and he wan't sure. Rather than quibble about which ones were "Hobie One-design", I let it fly as is. I'm going to have to pare it down for the next issue. I have somewhat the same problem with Division 2 (So. Cal.)

All the other events are confirmed Hobie One-design regattas. There's even been some added since. Matt M. has an update that he's supposed to slide into the on-line version
(but it arrived when you were on vacation and you forgot about it, right, Matt? )

Who is Wouter and why does he care?

Wouter -

It's been pointed out in a different thread that

Hobie Cat USA (Doug Skidmore)

is not the same company as

Hobie Cat Europe (John Dinsdale)

While they build several identical (OK, substantially similar) products, they serve two completely different markets.

They are like conjoined twins that don't always play nice together.

Now that is a good question !

Quite frankly I'm a nobody and everybody can ignore my ramblings as they wish. I certainly won't loose any sleep over that.


>>Why does he care

Because I got sick and tired of hearing the same misinformation being peddled once again by an entity that should have known better.

Because I want to make sure (for my personal piece of mind) that potential customers of the targetted boats and classes (F18 and Tigers) understand that the situation is a lot more nuanced.

Let me say it this way. In the past I got flamed for warning that the Tiger class was NOT a OD class as a certain segment of the sailing public understands it. It was neither One-design as the Tornado with freedom of choice in parts NOR was it One-design as stability in the setup of the boats (strict equality) and I warned that despite assurances by some it never would be. Of course I got flamed beyond believe for that but even the recent Hobie class magazine has proven me right by now. No matter how you put it no Tiger sailor attending catsailor.com forum can say that he was never warned of this.

And that is the reason why I'm doing it now on other area's. To make sure that anybody that reads this forum knows that things may be different than what official bodies say. Actually the whole NMBR thing is part of it as well. Again it is too show that improvements ARE possible despite unwillingness on the side of the official bodies.

I never have earned a single Euro on any of this and it has cost me heaps of time and effort. I do this because I CARE about the individual sailors, about the future of the catamaran scene in general where we all have a place. I do it because if I can prevent a single sailor from being dissatisfied from buying a catamaran that was advertised at being something else it would all be worth it. And that goes for all issues : for 155 kg singlehanders that are advertised as 125 kg boats to boats that are Formula boats alot more then SMOD boats, to 80 kg adults being sold a new 14 footer that doesn't suit them (happened at my club ; TWICE; by both big builders)

That is what this forum is for right ? Help one another and learn from eachother ? Learn from eachothers experience and knowlegde?

I tend to have some decently founded knowlegde in certain area's. Boat measurements, handicap ratings, and the situation on the ground here in Europe. It is my pleasure but also to some extend my duty to share this with all; here on the forum.

Can you disregard all I write ; ABSOLUTELY. However you will have taken note that it has been written so you can never say that your weren't told when something I said turns out to be true. And I think I have a decent track record by now.

Believe me I have more than one refered sailors and buyers to Hobies when those suited their wishes/circumstances best.

Anything to grow the cat sailing scene right ?

This brings us to another interesting questions.

Have you ever refered sailors and buyers to non-hobie designs/classes ?



Wouter

Wouter

How ironic.
We have been catching wouter lying for years on this forum to promote his personal agendas and here he is saying
"Because I got sick and tired of hearing the same misinformation being peddled once again by an entity that should have known better."
But is different when we "out" him.

Wow Wouter, thanks so much for the insight. You should be getting paid for all this info. With as much writing as you do you could write a monthly magazine all by yourself. Mabe you should do that so everyone who is interested could subscribe. That sounds like the fix for cat sailing.

Matt
Words to live by: "Never spend more time typing than you do sailing!"

Sorry Matt (Bounds), I did overlook the email with the updated pages. The revised Hobie regatta schedule is now in the Class Newsletter pdf online.

Matt

The regattas for division 9 still have not changed in the updated list . At the division 9 meeting it was left up to the people putting on the regattas to do what they wanted. All but one which was not there expresed having open regattas.

Mark, Dave, and Mary:

It's our belief that if our Fleet decided to refuse the opportunity to run a Hobie points regatta, we would lose the entrants that travel the 3-5 hours to enjoy our weekend, instead they would focus on traveling either the week before or the week later to other points regatta that would be waiting to replace us.

Well, the question is now put to bed, anyway. Our Fleet has voted to offer a Hobie points regatta where we will not have an open fleet for non-Hobie boats. We will take advantage of the advertising in the Hobie Associations' calendar and do business as usual.

Just to answer a question that was brought up: The term "anti-Hobie people" was meant to describe people in our club that enjoy sailing, but do not enjoy having anyone tell them what to do. We're cool now; we've calmed down; we're going to have a great summer. Keep an eye on our website.

Smooth waters,

Wyatt

Dave,

And I would have to look again but the one regatta in Division 9 (Myrtle Beach - later in the year) that we assumed might want to remain Hobie is not in the NAHCA newsletter schedule. This regatta was not represented at the meeting and we weren't able to establish a date that they might have wanted.

Well, at our club we decided to balance our calendar so everybody will find something:

Open racing? Fleet races(13) and Statue Race
Class racing? Hobie points and Wave event
Formula? Our Formula week end on Labor Day

Which does not prevent hobies, waves and F18/17 to race on fleet races.
Note that any outsider can participate to a fleet race. I learned recently that we are the last division 11 club running a Fleet race program (average participation is 20 boats and growing). So everybody is welcome, just show up at the skippers meeting on a race day (Calendar and club races rules at Fleet250.org).

That should work.

Jacques Pierret
SHBCC Race.org

Dave - If you'll notice, the revised date is 12/28 and I said I would make the Division 9 changes in the next issue. Formatting those two pages is a PIA, so I only made a couple of minor revisions. Major revisions will wait until the next deadline (Feb 7). In the meantime, you guys get free advertising.

Wyatt - If you'll send me the date & contact info, I'll update the Division 16 schedule (I assume we are talking about the Fleet 119 Angola / Buffalo regatta). As long as the date works, you're definitely back on my schedule!

What encloses the Formula 17 fleet ?

Wouter

[/quote]

What encloses the Formula 17 fleet ?

Wouter [/quote]

good question.

We have a growing I17 fleet (8 boats) at the club, and may be a Fx1 coming. They are our F17s.

Thanks and a question

I'm not saying that one will turn up but if an F16 would turn up at your event where will you put him ?

I heard a rumour of a crew thinking about attending. Just rumour at this time

Wouter

Hi Wouter,

I knew this was coming...

This applies only for our formula week end on labor day.
We will have F18s, for sure. F17 also as we know there are there and are happy to be invited. We are also trying to start with F20s(I20,N6.0, Ts) even if I am not sure if they will show up. Pre registration will tell.
For F16, well, we will see if the idea of "Formula week end" works, then we may propose it in the future although I do not know any of them in our area.

The idea is not to have 100 boats. We do not want to disperse ourselves but propose serious buoys racing for a few formula classes.

Jacques

I fully understand, but the F17 is not a formula class, but a OD class.

What I'm getting at is if you are going to race I-17 with FX-one than you might as well allow the F16's into the F17 fold. The difference between Nacra I1-7 and the F16 is less than the difference in speed between the N17 and FX-one.

But again it is not a serious issue, it is not like many F16's will show up in NY. IF ever just 1 ot 2.

And I don't mean anything by it, I just want to keep my pictures of th US sailing scene updated

Thanks

Wouter