NAMSA NAs/Tradewinds Midwinter Nationals Story/Pix

Story and pictures of the event. Just go to www.catsailor.com and it is the first story with link to the whole story.
Rick

what was the story on the Marstrom m20 dis-masting ? what happened ?

I posted some pictures of the hottest boat at the event.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...ew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Will the results be posted here, or under the "results" section?

Guess the wind and chop "Dun 'im in," as Ms. Peabody would say. Carla and John said the switched back to wire stays and Mike is still using line.
Rick

Rick:
Was a great race. Love the Blow by blow. Appreciate the lovely picture of Team Seacats F-18 #351 doing the Pitchpole on the story page. Anyway I can get the large version of that for my office, was my first ever pitchpole. Nothing like getting it right the first time. Glad I don't have to practice that maneuver.
We'd also like permission to use that on our Seacats website, with the appropriate credit given of course.
I know Roy Loughlin was there doing pictures, who was the other guy taking photos, boatpix.com or something like that?

Cary Palmer
Fleet 141
www.seacats.org

Thanks for the photos. The F-16 was indeed hot. Looks like an extremely well made product, Simple Clean design, excellent quality in the craftsmanship. The Blade16 also performed Very well. Had dinner with Matt and Gina, can't wait until he can build enough of those to see them around. Matt said there's a larger version in the works, (a 20 footer so I remember) but he has to build/sell enough of the B-16's first before he goes forward with the production of another boat.

Cary Palmer

I think in his story maybe Rick forgot to give credit to the photographer and give the web site for the photos. The photographer is Gary Cherubini and the website is boatphoto.biz. All his Tradewinds photos are posted on that site, and can be purchased from him.

Roy Laughlin was on Gary's boat. Sorry, but I don't know Roy's web site. Can somebody please post it on this thread?

Results will be posted on the Results forum, Tuesday, I hope. Rick has to get them out of his laptop. He didn't have time today.

while you guys were having fun down in the keys, we were braving the elements, learning the ropes on the I20

(taking two swims in the process)

First let me congratulate Matt and Gina with the launch of their new boat. And allow me to congratulate the designers of Blade with this important step to full production. It is quite special that a design from 2 relatively unknown designers without support from a major boat builder makes it. We have got to remember that. Last time was the Flyer A-cat in 1999 before that we had the F18 class in the early 90's. It is quite rare and at all times it translates in a win for the sailors at larger as well. It is always the small companies or few lone guys that make to real breakthroughs and improve on the old stuff.

I know a guy who will be making a long and deep sleep tonight. He toughed it out when the Blade F18 raced its first race at the Australian F18 nationals and this time was no different. With 2 good first shows of both designs I think he got all that he could wish for. So to Phill Brander I say :"Good night, sleep tight"

To Matt I would like to say, you had a typical launch of a new boat. Last minute panic, stuff forgotten to bring along and some infancy illness playing up. I don't think any boat was launched differently. I know mine wasn't but it lead directly to AHPC offering a true F16. I'm sure the net effect of this launch with outweight any bad luck that is typical to a first launch. I know you enjoyed yourself on the water, that is clear enough.

With regards to F16 selling. I've been all over Matt for a while now to get this boat into Europe. This design has some serious potential over here and I without as good as no promo we get inquiries about it and have a few serious buyers already. Phill Brander and Ian Markovich really have made a good looking boat that has performance as well. It shows. I'm not to worried about selling it. I know a few Hobie 16, Dart 18 and Prindle 16 guys that would love to sail on this. And I know a few modern boat sailors that want to switch when a good deal comes along. Blade F16 is just that deal with the current exchange rate. One big boat builder could have had this design in its inventory but they decided otherwise. It is going to be their bad luck.

Now one final tweak and "getting it just right" round and the design will be fully ready to go and make a splash. Best part it for European is will cost about the same as a Hobie 16. Who said that technology, carbon and formula class rules makes a boat expensive ?

From a long distance I pretty exited, I've read to many private communication to believe that the boat is anything other than very good.

So now it the time to push through and make it happen.

That leaves me to Thank Robi for taking excellent pictures, I know where these will end up in a few days. Yep on the harddrives of several interested European parties. You know, I wouldn't be surprise if the local M20 dealor would take the Blade F16 as an extension of his product line. A lot of potential and those pictures will do great in getting this going.

So congratulations to all.

Wouter

Do you mean in competition with Dynautic? I understood they were building the Blade in Europe.

Mark.

Simply put, we can move boats in Europe now. I don't care wether AHPC, Vectorworks Marine, Dynautic or Stealth Marine supplies them. Who ever is first to supply tuned and tweaked boats for the right price and of the kind the customers lust over will get the deal. That is all I'm saying.

The builders can now decide for themselfs if they want these assured sales badly enough to make the effort to be the first.

What is actually funny is that these sailors have expressed that they want a F16 and will go to lengths to get them. Two seperate parties are talking about flying over and see the boat themselfs. One other had expressed he would buy a boat of a certain make unseen. The forth has already decided on which he wants but wants a reasonable price. I will say it out loud any builder not getting these 4 sales has only himself to blame. You don't get more willing customers then these. With these 4 sales a few more are within reach and I know their name already as well.

You know what the best part is. It only took a test sail on a F16 with the wingmast rig to make them so devoted. I'm REALLY not kidding here.

One actually came in like, "huh ? well yes, why not ? lets give it a shot" and came off the boat and wouldn't shut up for 3 weeks. Two us had to tell him to shut up as even I could hear no more about it and that says something.

Wouter

Rick, Are you serious ?

It does not look that windy or rough, and even so, rigging should not 'just fail'

Worrying

Looked over Boatbiz site, thanks for the link, Mary. E-mailed Roy Laughlin too. Nothing to compare to that picture of our F-18 #351 Pitchpole shot at the bottom of the front page of the Tradewinds story. Any chance Rick could e-mail that to us in a larger format? I may never get a more dynamic shot of my sailing no matter how long I sail.
Thanks,
cary.palmer@palmettohealth.org
Team Seacats

Wouter
I loved the Blade. I spent hours on your F-16 sites trying to learn what I could about the class. Can you give me some info on reccommended crew weights for F-16? All I could come up with was that there was no minimum crew weight.
I currently sail an I-20, solo most of the time, deprived of some of the more challenging times and winds when I sail without crew. Plans have been to be going F-18, but maybe the F-16 is a more reasonable route for me.
Cary

the photos are already up.

http://boatphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/310700/1

Okay, I finally got the scoop on the photos. (You guys must wonder whether Rick and I ever communicate.) The photos that Rick used with his story were taken by Chip Short with Rick's camera. After posting that story and photos, Rick then inadvertently deleted all the originals. So those with the story on our website are the only copies that exist of the Chip Short batch. You can copy them from the story, but that's the best that can be done.

Rick is sorry, and I have fined him for the foul-up.

Roy's site is www.floridamultihullsailor.com

He usually posts his pics within the week, and they are available at very reasonable prices.

I'm kinda hoping no one managed to catch our 20 kt pitchpole with spin up on Sunday.

For those that weren't there, the conditions were a bit more challenging than the images would indicate. Winds were around 15 on Saturday and upwards of 20 on Sunday. Gusts weren't furious, but they could easily jump the unsuspecting crews. Chop built up to about 2 feet, and I think a good number of pitchpoles were the result of driving over the top of the chop.

With busy starts and turns, things could go ugly fast. But that's the beauty of racing!

I've been working my butt off behind the scene with F16 and NMBR stuff so yes I'm really slacking on the F16 webpage. Luckily I got some help from an asia F16 sailor so hopefully the F16 website will be more informative during the 2005 season.



I will give you cold hard facts.

Taipan 4.9 + spi = very good for light crews and solo sailors, boat likes weights out of range 115 kg-140 kg best (when doublehanding) but will take 105 kg - 155 kg without much fuss. It may take waves on the main beam at 145-155 kg when sailing in chop. 135 kg seems like the centre weight and the perfect weight for all conditions, but performance stays largely the same when being 10 kg off this number. Solo sailing there is no optimum just the right combo of mainsail cut and weight of skipper. Advice for when your solo weight and double handed weigths are very far apart is that you get a special cut sail for either use.

Taipan F16 = very much the same as the Taipan 4.9 + spi but raising the mainbeam by an inch really made a difference in severe chop. I sailed this boat at 155 -160 kg several times in heavy chop and short stubby waves and I didn't take more than 1 or two waves on the beam in about a hours worth of sailing which I think is quite good. With 155-160 kg on board the Taipan F16 can be sailed nose down again without fear of hitting the waves and that helps getting the sterns out and speed up. Several sailors won't like it but I truly believe the F16 upgrades on the basic Taipan 4.9 gave it a new lease on life AND the basic 4.9 was already a good design so you can extrapolate where the F16 version ends up. having said all this I think 150 kg is the top weight range for optimal sailing, meaning being competitive with this hull design. Any more and you'll depress the hulls to much and slow down as a result. You are probably best sailing this F16 version at 150 kg or less. Perfect would be around 140 kg.

Stealth F16 ; Due to the much flatter keel line (almost U shaped with flat bottom) and more bouyancy low in the hulls the Stealth F16 will take crews going up in doublehanded weight well. Think up to 160 kg when sailing at near optimal speed. It will hold crews up to 180 kg in certified way and seems to sit well in the water at those weights. Of course at weights near 180 kg's you are at a disadvantage speedwise but less so than you might suspect. Some Stealth F16 sailors commented on how the boat feels like it planes on the downwind legs under spi. The keel line does seem to allow that. It really seems flat and wide enough for that. Quite a few singlehanders do sail this design but the advice with this boat is that you really should get a solo cut mainsail for it when racing it solo. The Stealth Mast section seems to really prefer that, more so than the Taipan mast section. Thing is that the Stealth F16 has a quite powerful LandenBerger rig and that seems to fit doublehanded sailing with that hull design very well (it is certainly no slower than the Taipan in that mode, from what we've seen at DCC) but the cut seems to be to powerful for comfortable solo sailing and requires a lot of downhaul to make it work. Getting an (second) optimized solo mainsail seems to do the trick.


Blade F16 ; This boat has a rounder keel line than the Stealth F16 and probably contains an amount of bouyancy low in the hull that is between the Taipan and Stealth designs. It was really optimized for the doublehanded crew weight range between 110 kg and 160 kg; which is arguably a very wide optimal crew weight range. Also as Phill Brander is a near exclusive solo sailor himself he really worked hard at making the design go well when singlehanded. For some reason he has succeeded very well at both modes. Pretty much the reason for it is the Superwing mast section and the Taipan sail design that is at the foundation of the Blade rig, this setup allows the rig to be depowered to a very large range and so a doublehander sail can quite easily be trimmed for good solo sailing. The second reason is the hull design. It sits high in the water and the wetted surface area seems to be minimal. I should rather say that the difference in wetted surface area between very different crew weights seems to be really small and so sailors comment on how it feels very much the same with 160 kg on as it does with 80 kg on it. One time it was test sailed wby Phill and Tony at about 180 kg combined in conditions very similar to Tradewinds and even Phill himself was very surprised to find that the design took this extreme crew weight in its stride. I remind you of how Phill typically sails solo at about 90 kg's. He came back noting how amazed he was himself that no waves were ever taken on the mainbeam and how the boat maintained its smooth and slippery feel through the water. It felt nimble just the same and very agile; very much like when it was sailed solo. Now we really do not know how it maintains speed when going from 75 kg solo to 180 kg doublehanded. It certainly is reported that it feel as sailing at about the same speeds but we have no really dependent and scientifically acquired data. However, when a boat feels fast it probably is fast as well. As the optimal doublehanded weight range I would say 115 kg (due to the rig) to 160 kg (a conservative estimate). I dare not name its perfect crewweight number (for either mode).

In general I think the best crew weights for the F16 class are in the range of 125 kg - 155 kg when doublehanding with the centre at 140 kg. For solo sailing it is all about the mast-sail combo and weight doesn't seem to be a significant part of the equation. The newer designs will take weights outside the optimal crewweight range well enough to stay in the game in a serious way with a little extra skill and an adjusted cut of the sails. Solo sailing it is all about skill and a sail cut for your weight and style of sailing. Several people will roll their eyes at such a large optimal crew weight range (125 kg - 155 kg) However this is all the result of having the spinnaker. This seems to take away a big portion of the advantage that lighter crews always had on the downwind legs. Upwind the differences between different crew weigths was always less than on the downwinds. Adding the spinnaker acted as a great equalizer. Add to this the modern hull shape with lots of volume at the keel line where light crews are sailing with a wetted area only slighly less than heavier crews and you'll end up with a optimal crew weight range that is rather large. F18 class shows the same trend. And from the A-cat class it is clear how much the right combo or crew and sail cut can equalize things. Glenn Ashby is sailing at 85 kg and is rather short, but he wins in light winds just the same as heavy winds. One last comment I truly believe that small optimal weight ranges are a feature of strickt OD classes where one particular sail cut must be used by all crews and where hull design is still largely featuring V-ed keellines. This will always favour a narrow weight range over all others.

Of course you have to have a good sailmaker cut you a sail to your weight. But all F16 builders offer that at no extra cost. AHPC has Goodall yacht sails, Stealth features Landenberger and Blade uses Redhead (well known in Taipan class) or Ashby sails. These are all big names in the business.




Really I can only give you one reply to that question. Test sail an F16 and see for yourself. I have yet to meet a person that test sailed the Taipan and that didn't come off impressed. By far the most of them buy an F16 sooner or later. The rig is just so much ahead of the old tear drop shaped mast rigs. Talk to Matt McDonald about it; his first experience is still fresh. Ask him how much he felt in control all the way to the worst Tradewinds had to offer and beyond. If you ask me I will tell you exactly the same thing. I raced my F16 in two distance race in 2005 in heavy seas and heavy winds (160 kg combined, 20-25 knots winds). I swear to God and on the health of my Mother that I have never sailed a boat that was so well mannered and controllable than the Taipan F16 with the wingmast rig + Redhead sail. I have sailed nearly all cat designs that have sold more than 10 boats except A-cats, Marstrom products and Stealth/Blade F16. If I have a choice I would rather be on the shorted hulled F16 in nuclear winds than on any modern F18 or 20 footer. During the distance racing we never came close to wiping out. We had one reach that lasted 20 minutes and that was as fast as a dash out of hell. The boat didn't have any time to rise on to the waves as it approached on them so quickly. It just crashed through halve of them and we felt in full control all the way. Critics wondering if the alu mast pushed the bows down ? NO WAY, just didn't happen. And when we started feeling out of control we just decreased mast rotation and the boat immediately relaxed down. It was far more a question of how far WE were willing to push the edge than a question of how far the boat allowed us to do so. If we wanted to, and we did one time amidst a fleet of converging boats, we could completely depower the rig to puppy level by derotating the mast. We had to come in from the trapeze to keep the luff hull kissing the water (in 20-25 knots of winds while going up upwind with the sails sheeted in and travellers centred). If we had let out the main traveller only 4-6 inches I'm sure we would have been with both hulls well in the water. You can complete tone down the boat by these controls without throwing the head into wind. Best part however is when you power up again. Like somebody throws over a switch. You let the mast rotation out just a little and you immediately accellerate away; at least in those 20-25 winds we did.

I would like to know more about your intented way of sailing any new boat but if I assume right that you are looking to solo often and looking to take somebody along relatively frequently as well (all with spi) than I truly think that you have only one serious option. Other designs/classes will allow a similar use but not to the same extend, to the same performance and feel that the F16's can provide. Don't let yourself be fooled to think that a carbon teardrop shape mast is better than an aluminium wing mast; you'll be proven wrong. The gains are the result of the wingmast shape much more than of the any use of carbon fibre.

After sailing my own F16 I'm more convinced than I ever was before.

My appologies for the lengthy reply, I hope I did answer all your questions.


Wouter

Well, we were out there as well, just sailing in front of the nosediving Nacra F18, downwind without the chute up!
Winds at that time were about 25 knots pretty consistent, however a little later when we hit the finish line and reached for Gilberts it was a little more so topping some 28 knots (32 mph). The pictures don´t show that all but the "submarining" TIGER 1452 gives an impression on how much wind was there.
On IWINDSURF you find the readings for Molassas Reef (attached Pic), which is 10 NM South of where we sailed. There we had around 30 plus miles at 1300 local, which means that we had the wind increased at around 1200. That was about last race, it then increased more around the finish time of the last race/ heading for the beach.

Kind regards

Fritz
TIGER 1531

Fritz, it was alot of fun when we finally were able to run with you guys. Hope we have a lot more of that in the old Div 9 series. BTW, I saw you guys monday morning in Florence as I was pulling into work, you must have drove all night like we did. We got in at 2am, made for a long day after racing and swimming!
Thanks to my able crew, we were able to survive the puffs up until the last down wind leg, on the last day, in the last race(go figure) It was blowing the dogs off the chain when we rounded A mark, and we dumped everything but still buried the leeward hull to the point of no return. We had 3 other buries but popped back out of them. The boat runs well with the spin up, but jib reaching on the NACRA F18 is a handful.
All in fun though, and it was certainly a good time. Rick And Mary did an excellent job, and thanks to Chip for taking us back to our boat. When it flipped, it basically sailed away from us, way too far to swim, and was moving with only the tramp in the air at at least 5 knots.

The Blade looks to be an awesome boat, and Matt and Gina are super nice people, should be a good dealer for this boat.

See you next year!

Dave Mosley
yeah that was me upside down!

The results were posted this morning, in case you haven't found them yet. Rick put a link in the story, down almost at the bottom. (They are NOT on the results forum.)

Hey lets hear it for able crew!!
I was quite impressed with the F-18. I had only sailed it in light air before. Was expecting to be dissapointed. Dave Mosely & I outran I-20's on several occasions upwind, & I noticed by the time a moments inattention cause us to Flip, Herendeen was out on his I-20. Course we couldn't help it, Our Fellow Team Seacats Boat put the HooDoo on us before the last race, shaking their native JuJu bones and chanting mystical curses at us between races.
"Matches" finally beat us in one, guess it took magic to slow us down.
Cary

Could someone go into the Aluminum vs CF mast options and performance? I love the weight of my CF Stick on my I-20, but there's the trade off of when will my stick break with CF. Wouter sez" Don't let yourself be fooled to think that a carbon teardrop shape mast is better than an aluminium wing mast; you'll be proven wrong. The gains are the result of the wingmast shape much more than of the any use of carbon fibre."
I realize the weight advantage, but is there something else with shape they can do in Aluminum but not in CF?
Cary

I know the question is not directed at me but I think you misunderstand my post

There is no shape that an alu mast can be made in that can not be be done with carbon. That is not the point I was making.

The point I was making is that some people think that ALL aluminium masts are inferiour to carbon masts. This is false. I can give a direct comparison between an alu WING mast and a carbon TEAR DROP SHAPED one of the same length featuring the sail sailarea on a similar platform were the alu mast is seriously superior to the carbon one. This is because the behaviour of a wing mast is so much better. A carbon wing mast is slightly better still BUT less so than the difference between a teardrop shaped mast and a wing mast of the same material. The case I'm refering to is actually a very funny one as the carbon mast is even heavier than alu one. In in this particular case the expected gains that people have of carbon were simply not there. But the warm glow they received from the word CARBON made them part with alot more money then they had to.

The list pretty much goes like this;

-1- Carbon teardrop mast = better than alu teardrop mast
-2- Wing mast = better than teardrop mast
-3- Alu wing mast = better than carbon teardrop mast
-4- Carbon wing mast = better than alu wing mast

But the gains decrease in magnitude when going from -1- to -4- . The last step is actually the most expensive one for maybe very small gains indeed. Especially when class rules specify an overal minimum and the platform is considered stiff as it is. In this particular case positive effect of the weight savings are gone as well and we are only left with a better weight to stiffness ratio with respect to gusts. But an Alu wing mast can be designed to have the same ratio. So what we are really left with in the end is the fact that this ratio can be optimized for your crew weight with carbon while alu is "one ratio fits all". At this moment we have really began to look at 0.5 % performance gains or less (about 20 second per hour racing). Enough for Olympic sailors and alike to justify spending money on but for recreational sailors ? I don't know. No the big wopper is made when going from -1- to -2- (or -3-) Here the gains are measured in several %.

I hope this clarifies my earlier post

Wouter

I guess the real question in my mind is that I've never seen a 30 year old CF mast. My 1999 Inter 20 is on it's third mast. One of my considerations in downsizing to a more controllable boat for my weight is that I really did not want another CF masted boat. F-18's= aluminum mast, I'm glad for that one.
Guess since there is the option of an Aluminum or CF mast in the F-16 class, I'm glad to have that option, but I don't selecting that option to make me choose a significantly slower boat, either. How do they design a weight specific mast when you can sail the boat either solo or double handed anyway?
Hard enough to stay competitive with the frequency with which you have to replace chutes & sails, etc., without adding the expense of CF mast replacement into the equation too.
CARY

Cary,

My crew and I have a combined crew weight between 285 and 290 lbs and that seems to be a good weight for us on the Tainpan 4.9 when sailing F16. We sailed this past weekend at the Tradewinds on a Hobie Tiger using the small F18 sail plan and came to the conclusion that the boat is too big for us. We are certainly competitive on the Tiger in light to moderate winds but as the wind inceases above 15 mph, we just can't keep the boat driving to stay up with the bigger crews.

Jennifer
Taipan 4.9 #262
Tiger #870

Jennifer,

If Kathy can learn to sail well heavy when it's light, then you and Kelly can learn how to sail fast when it's heavy!

There were several light teams sailing well on Sunday, Alex and Patsy for sure, and I think Jason and Kelly and Tom and Tina are on the light and were still up at the front.

It was just one day on one race.

Dave

I think the biggest advantage of a CF mast is the fact that I'm able to solo-right the I-20 with only a righting line(with the CF mast) whereas the N6.0 (alum mast) I could tug and lean and pull and still not get it up.

Jennifer, I thought you guys sailed very well in the heavier air, just a little more "saddle Time" and you guys will be up front as usual. Dave and Kathy sailed thier boat well also, its all new to us too. But we gave the Old Timers a good run!

David

I must admit that the superwing aluminium wing mast was us getting lucky without truly knowing it at the beginning of the class. Of course we thank AHPC for allowing other builders to use that section on their boats. It was one of the best things they ever did. It largely nipped the drive for carbon masts in the butt. I have the alu mast on my own boat and I can truly say that I'm very happy that I never got a custom carbon stick. It made my homebuild seriously cheaper and I really don't see any significant disadvantage of having one. The cross section shape taps into the extra performance very well without being made of carbon and the overall weight is very low. The Superwing mast is really a good piece of engineering not seen in 95 % of the other alu mast, I'm sorry but it is true.

Maugan is right.

Let me give you a quick comparison between the alu mast of an existing modern 17 foot singlehander and the superwing mast. Both are the same length and feature the exact same mainsail sail area.

Unspecified modern single hander

Length 8.5 mtr. with about 15 sq.mtr. mainsail area
Weight bare mast section About 17.0 kg / 8.5 mtr = 2.00 kg / mtr
main axis = About 0.155 mtr
small axis = About 0.085 mtr
Weight fully rigged = 19.8 kg (measured data)
Tip weight = about 9.05 kg


Superwing

length 8.5 mtr take typically about 15 sq. mtr. mainsail area
Weight bare mast section 13.5 kg / 8.5 mtr = 1.59 kg / mtr
main axis = 0.15 mtr
small axis = 0.063 mtr
Weight fully rigged = 15.5 kg
Tip weight = 7.3 kg


The lightest carbon mast for the F16's (the lighter ones broke)

length 8.5 mtr take typically about 15 sq. mtr. mainsail area
Weight bare mast section 9.8 kg / 8.5 mtr = 1.15 kg / mtr
main axis = About 0.15 mtr
small axis = About 0.063 mtr
Weight fully rigged = 12.0 kg
Tip weight = 5.5 kg

Note how the superwing is closer in overall weight to the minimal carbon mast than it is to an aluminium mast of its competition ? The fact that it is also of the same crossection shape as the carbon mast makes it very similar in behaviour.

Also note that it will take about (9.05 - 7.3) * 8.5 mtr / 1.2 mtr. = 15.5 kgs ! (= 34 lbs) more on the righting line to right the heavier alu mast over the superwing section. From Superwing to minimal carbon F16 mast is another 12 kg's. But getting back to the alu masts.

The mast of the single hander betrays its orgin with the 2 kg/mtr weight of the bare section. It is an F18 mast section that was cut down for use on the singlehander model. This is what is typically done with singlehanders. The builder takes the boards, mast, beams and other stuff of their much heavier F18 model and uses those to assemble an "optimal" singlehander. Often the area and length of the daggerboards are way off and the mast is too heavy and too stiff to allow proper depowering or gust responses.

One other thing to note is that the alu superwing rig is only 3.5 kg heavier than the carbon one. That on a total of mast , sails, stays, halyards, boom, trapezes etc of about 29 kg (64 lbs). I'm sure that lighter is always better but I'm not so sure wether saving 3.5 kg on 29 kg in total is worth its cost in terms of gained performance. On my own boat I have no troubles with dive recovery what so ever. And that is the point that is arguably most helped by a lighter rig.

One extra advantage of the alu mast is that you can let that one stay on the boat when it is parked somewhere waiting for you to return next weekend. No damage due to the wind vibriting it to bits or UV degradation. The first is a typical problem with very light carbon masts.

Wouter

I would like to address one problem with this year's Tradewinds that was mentioned on (I think) the F-16 forum: The fact that some people were not able to get to the race course on time for the first race on Saturday because of having to go to the skippers meeting and then having to get back to their launching area and hightail it out to the race course.

The problem this year was that boats were launching from at least five different locations. In addition to Gilbert's, boats were launching from Rowell's Marina and Neptune's Hideaway Motel. PLUS, the Sharks were launching from a private residence, and the Waves were launching from a homeowners park. The problem was compounded by the Jewfish Creek Bridge opening and delaying their return to their launch areas after the skippers meeting.

I anticipated all this might be a problem, but too late to figure out a way to handle it. The best way probably would have been to have the sailors at the remote locations not have to go to the skippers meeting in person, but for the race committee to have a "runner" go to all the launch sites and hand-deliver the information about order of starts and which classes were to sail which courses.

I thought about doing that myself, even though I was racing, too, but for all I knew, there may have been other launch sites, as well, that I was not aware of. So we just left it at as published so people were responsible for getting the information themselves.

Next year we may have less of a problem and more of a problem, because it sounds like Gilbert's will no longer be available at all for races, since their plans are to tear down the motel and build townhomes. Another regatta site lost!

We are working on another location for next year's Tradewinds Regatta. If we are successful, the whole event will be much more consolidated in one close area. Keep your fingers crossed, because it is going to be a tough sell for us.

In addition, Rick is right now down at the County Courthouse testifying in a jury trial lawsuit involving the Caribbean Club property, which used to be one of our primary launching areas for regattas. We have not been able to use that area for the past two years for any sailing events because of an electrocution accident (no death, but a hand had to be amputated) that involved the electric company's power lines and a Hobie 16. Both of us are actually on the witness list to testify that sailing has been going on at that site since at least the early 1980's.

Apparently, the electric company is claiming that if they had known there was a launching ramp there and if they had known sailboats ever launched there, they would have raised their wires higher across the front of that property.

I will let you know what happens with the lawsuit.

Hey now, I was able to right our Nacra F18 with aluminum mast, not only solo, but with my 200lb crew still on the windward hull high and dry! I weigh 170lbs. We had an onboard camera that would have captured most of it but the tape ran out 3 minutes before the capsize.

On a side note - I don't think winds ever reached 25knots while we were out there. It was more like 15 sustained with gusts to 20k...I usually get concerned about boat damage at 20k or better and I am either getting more comfortable with high wind or am wrong (which is certainly possible). Rick, do you have a record of windspeed for the end of Sunday?

From what I understand, there has been debate over the CF vs. Aluminum mast in the Tornado community. Most T drivers "try" several different masts until they find one that best "fits" their sailplan, style and weight. I believe this has something to do with the aluminum extrusion process.

With CF, it is said that they can actually design the mast to fit whatever profile the sailor wants, rather than having to experiment with several masts to find the best fit.

There have been a few comments that the F-18 aluminum mast is a bit too bendy, but I can't verify those comments, as I don't have an F-18.

If you're on your third CF mast, what happened to the first two? I've heard that I-20's break masts with spins up and too little mainsheet (or in distance races - no preventer on the rotation) or things of that nature. I would consider that more operator error than design issue. I would think that this would also damage an aluminum mast in the same situation.

Speaking of that, I've seen a handful of aluminum (Nacra 6.0) masts break in similar conditions.

If you're pitchpoling at speed, I'm not sure it would matter what your mast is made of, there's probably going to be some damage...

The first mast was due to a bad mast. The upper tang pulled out and down came the rig. It was not due easing the main too much. Cary may not know this but I was driving the boat that day. Not sure about mast #2.

Mary,

How bout smoke signals for the skippers meeting? Just teasin'!

They do call it a skippers meeting, skipper and crew do not have to attend, leaving one with the boat and the other to get the info. As long as the mast is up it can be a one man job....... I do it all the time.

How about assigning "launch place" captains and use mobile phone to relay any last information to the "launch place" captain who can then take it up in their local skippers meeting. Asking a few experienced sailors for this job and agreeing on a few guidelines should be enough.

Wouter

That would work also. The rules are usually similar to the last race. However, there is usually something that needs to be clarified with the inner outer or orange and red course or the pn classes sometimes get made at the last minute depending on when everyone gets registered! (my bad)
In retrospect, the skippers meeting is needed, we need to figger out how to get off the beach on time if we are not on ground zero.

Oh, and by the way... Rick, Mary, John, Oriel, great freakin job.... Very selfless and coool that you forgo the race to put it on. I will replace you next year in some form. Count on it.

E

I wish people would stop including me in their thanks, because I have nothing to do with organizing or helping with this regatta. I raced in it.

Linda Jo Nicholson is the one to thank. She comes down every year from Tampa Bay to help out by singlehandedly doing registration and all the scoring input on the computer.

I didn't even see anybody this year except when you guys were whizzing past me out on the water -- you were literally a blur.

As far as the problem of skippers meeting when there are various launch areas, that was a unique situation this year. I explained in an earlier post that Gilbert's probably will not even be available next year, so it's a moot issue.

And in future situations like this here or anywhere, an easier solution would be to just hold the skippers meeting earlier or start the races later.

This is true, but it must be added that the Tornado carbon mast is strictly one design, and the measurement rules are designed to keep it that way.
The intention of the class is that the masts shall be as good as identical (more identical than alu masts), and only certified builders may build them. So the scope for personalizing carbon masts on the Tornado is supposed to be zero, and that was one of the major points on the class ballot.

Just go by What Tom Korz Told Me, Was Sue's boat back then, I may have the order of breakage wrong. New mast(#3) is perfect, sure is a pain to keep those things free of damage, I for one love the I-20, but will be glad when I have an aluminum masted cat again.
Cary

Hey, Dave and Cary, you have been immortalized! The photo of your pitchpole made the FRONT page of the Keynoter, which is one of the biggest local newspapers in the Keys.

Is there a corresponding website Mary?

We at the Seacats Will do ANYTHING to promote the sport of catsailing, even risking life, limb, and personal embarrassment. For those of you who followed the TYBEE 500 this year, we were the ONLY team that made the 1100PM news in Daytona Beach.
Cowboy Jake of Team Seacats got some recognition too, Due to his unique style of Riding the Hull in through the Surf Landings! (Actually a Daggerboard was stuck, but it made a good picture and the name stuck)
I hope the Keynoter got the Hi-Resolution version of the Picture before Rick pushed the Delete button.
Any chance of a copy of that issue finding its way up here after you're finished with it? Glad to pay for the postage/magazine price or whatever. Memories like that are priceless.
Thanks for the Info Mary. Sure would like to see a copy or that if there's any way.
Cary Palmer
1032 Jones Road
Irmo, SC 29063

Too bad about Gilberts, but they have to make money somehow, and I doubt multihull sailing is their key to financial success....

Despite Rowell's mildly tricky launch ramp, it's not too difficult to launch from there, and there's plenty of rigging room. Locked gates at night, too.

Maybe hold the skipper's meeting the night before at registration for the general stuff that's typically in the NOR/race instructions. Perhaps a restaurant/bar would accomodate this?

If not, is Rowell's close enough to the other areas to facilitate a skipper's meeting before first flag? At least there's no drawbridge to worry about...

Just some thoughts, as I know the logistics of holding a regatta is hard enough when things go smoothly!

I would like to address a couple of things here.

First of all, the skippers meeting was extremely brief realizing that boats were spread out -- didn't even have time to thank the sponsors and hosts and all that gobbly goop.., just ran straight into the classes and starting positions.
The meeting was over by 11:05

The start was scheduled for 12:00 but I saw that many of the boats had not arrived yet, so postponed for about 10 minutes. This gave all the boats, no matter where they launched, over an hour to get out there.
From Gilberts it was a broad reach to the course, and from other places it was either a beam reach or close reach in winds nearly 15 mph.
We were about 1.5 miles from shore.., so figure it out. If you headed for your boat and left promptly, you would have had no problem making your start.
The Sharks, which had the farthest drive from the skippers meeting, were at the meeting and all made it out on time. Sounds like some folk might have procrastinated.., not knowing that I like to start races ON TIME!

For Jennifer: Heavy air sailing is not all about weight.., a lot of it is technique. I remember in the Tornado I sailed with my 80 lb. son and I was around 190. Yet we were able to beat the Russians in heavy air with a crew weight over 350.
Being originally from Ohio, where light air sailing prevails, it took lots of time to learn the heavy air techniques and keep up with the bigger folks in the big stuff, but after plenty of practice, we were there.
Don't give up just yet.

And I must say the winds were pretty hefty. I had a wind guage with me that was obviously not reading correctly -- for the first race it was reading 22.5 knots average -- no way was it that much

I do believe the wind was nearing a steady 20 mph with gusts to 25 mph (not knots)by the last race -- folks might have noticed on the orange course that the leeward mark kept getting longer and longer. It made for a very good last race, but it was surely not intended -- of my three patrol boats, one was towing in a dismasted boat, the other was retrieving sailors separated from their boat, and the other never heard me calling.
When we retrieved the mark, the anchor, cinder block and all were intact.., just wasn't enough to hold the mark in place.

On the F16 Forum there was a complaint.., "Due to some very poor race decisions, we were put on the short course. The first day we didn't even have time to throw the spinnaker because as soon as it went up we were at the c mark. It was very upsetting and I did voice some displacer to race management about the decision." and that complaint reached me at the skippers meeting. An F16 sailor complained that they should be on the same course as the Low Portsmouth boats, i.e., Marstrom 20s and CFR.
He failed to understand that we take all the Portsmouth boats and divide them from apples and oranges to apples and then oranges, by taking the total boats and dividing in half by the half.
While he may have thought his boat was fast, it was definitely in the higher numbers and because there are some other boats that are slower in that class, we had to run them around marks that were shorter, but the course was still just as long overall.., we gave them two extra legs.
Rick

Website is www.keynoter.com

Uhh , doesn't that mean that the tornado's will favour a more narrow weight range even more ?

I mean with alu mast you could buy several masts and find the one that suited your weight best. With the new carbon one you can't ! You are either at the optimal weight or you are not.

So what it the gain exactly in going for carbon except for having an selling argument ?

Aren't we supposed to make racing more equal for the realistic spread in crew weights. Sometimes I just don't understand why certain choices are made.

Wouter

Hi Wouter

The mast change was sold to the class for the follwing reason. At the Olympic level, well funded teams or consortia were beginning to spend huge sums developing alu masts that were not made available to the rest of the olympic fleet. The arms race in sticks and sails was going to get out of control and threatened to make the class unaffordable. This fact could threaten the class's olympic status. Since masts are generally not viewed as disposable items the decision was made to make to lockin a one design carbon mast and not have every team develop their own custom carbon mast. (They did this with hull and foil shapes a few years ago) I guess time will tell if one design carbon masts only work for a narrow crew weight. The alu masts are still legal (I think).

Word on the street is Rowell's is going to be Condo's next year too.

Well, then, I guess we will have to move the regatta to Cuba.

The Florida Key's RV resort (between Gilbert's and Rowell's) said that they probably wouldn't be open much longer either...they're closing soon but said they ~might~ be open next year. They're currently delayed because of permits and a lack of available contractors but...can you guess?....it will soon be condos too.

Mark,

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Best part however is the contradiction that is enclosed in the Tornado class reasoning.

EITHER the NON-uniformness of alu mast is a problem BECAUSE it allows certain crews to perform better because their particular mast bending suits their crew weigth and style better. But this means that the very UNIFORM carbon masts will do very much the same thing (because the crews are not uniform!).

OR the UNIFORM-ness of the carbon mast DOES NOT favour a narrow range crew weight and sailing styles and by equal measure the crews currently running through scores of alu mast in search of the best one are on a WILD GOOSE CHASE and there simply is NO arms race that needs to be prevented by going carbon.

I'm really anxious to see how anybody is going to reason himself out of that one !


No matter how you turn it you'll end up with the same situation as before but now at a few thousant dollars additional costs.

Seems to me that the Tornado class fell victom to a decision that was either not well thought through OR that has totally different (and secret) reasons as a foundation.

Maybe they are trying to make the Tornado a true OD class under ISAF pressure ? You know how ISAF and the olympic committee get off on OD classes.

Will be very interesting to see where this thing leads to

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Mark,




The sail design arms race is far more costly then any mast arms race if either one ever really existed outside the minds of sailors that aren't competitive even if they tried. Marstrom as a boat is bloody expensive as well. Is it trully expected that by going for the MORE expensive Marstrom carbon mast more teams are going to buy and sail a Tornado ? Let along campaigning one in any serious manner. We all know were the true cost of a campaign or to be found and that is not in the masts.

This is just weird logic !




Don't wait just look at the A-cats. The answer is already around.

And even if for some reason the same thing is not seen in the Tornado class with the carbon mast the choice for One-design carbon is still weird.

For the cost that Marstrom is asking (3200 Euro) you can buy a set of aluminium masts and take the one that suits you best. In F16 class alu mast section go for retail 900 Aus = 550 Euro's. Extrusion (+additional costs like anodising, packing etc) of alu tornado masts is certainly not more expensive.

If the Tornado class was smart about it then they would measure each mast for bend and mark the masts according to stiffness and have the crews buy the mast that they think will suit them best. This way the sailors can get their purchase first time right and at a fraction of the cost. With this data the sailmaker can make the optimal mainsail and we'll have achieved greater equality in racing between crews of different weight by having crews sail with a mast/sail combo that is optimal for them.

It is a setup I'm actually considering for the F16 class. It has the best of both worlds




Ohh, so when say bundock finds an alu mast that has a better bending for his crew weight and style of sailing than he will go with that one and shot the OD mast setup right out of the sky as others will immediately copy him.


Wouter

You guys better start organising yourself to maintain a beach access or regatta sailing in the Keys will be over.

Now is the time to do so when the permits still need to be issues; After that has been done there is no way a local county can force a developper to build a public access location and they won't (no money there).

Seems to me like you guys are at 5 to 12.

Wouter

I thought it was impossible to get building permits in Key Largo? Did something change. It seems obvious to me that something must have changed to allow all of this new development?

Rick and Mary is there anywhere on public land you could hold this event? Where are we going to put in at next year for Steeplechase if Rowells and Gilberts is gone? Have you tried approaching some of the city planners/officials concerning this issue? If you add up all of the events you guys hold and all of the money spent over the course of a year by folks that come down just for your events you have a pretty good case for the local Gov. to help you out.

Lets see:
Steeplechase 120 people for average 3 days.
Tradewinds 150 people for average 3 days.
Hogsbreath
Miami-Key Largo
Wave Nationals.
....
Say per person per day they bring $120
You probably don't realize it but your stuff is probably worth about 500K to the local economy. Plus you are usually filling rooms during off peak times.

Put the numbers to some officials and see how they can help.

Mike Hill
Tiger #1520, I20 #747

The problem of water access is steadily a major happening everywhere. Too bad we didn't make much profit with Rick's Place or we would at least still have that.
The last time Mary talked to the new owner he said that all sailors were pigs and didn't want them around at all. Had to pull beer cans out of the bushes after they left.

Just a side bet, but I think Gilberts will about the same next year as they are now and we will still have it as a venue.
The reason they might get a permit is they now have 33 rooms. By building townhouses they will actually reduce the number.
At Rick's Place we were allowed to have 10 units, but only had 5. And we could not get a permit to add the units. Had we been able, we would probably still be there.

Dave just mentioned the word on the street about Rowells, but I have never heard that before. Hope they don't condo-ize too.

As for government access, there have no land on Blackwater Sound. They just bought the old Quay Restaurant property on Tarpon Basin and it has a bit of beachfront. However, it is a very small body of water and has a pretty nasty reef in the eastern part of it. that is the last basin you go through before Dusenberry Creek in the Steeplechase.

Mary and I will be looking around and working on a place for next year. We still have some high hopes.
Rick

Wouter: OD racing was one of the arguments, others were increased safety due to easier righting, stronger masts to stop all the breakages (quite a few masts have broken after the increase in sail area in 2000) and added performance due to lower platform weight.

About old masts.. Yes, they are still legal, but you are not allowed to change their tip weight (ask Mike about his lead corrector on the tip) or change their spreaders to the new streamlined ones like the one on the carbon stick.

About the arms race in sails.. The next ballot for the class will decide wether to allow molded sails.. (interestingly enough, even North Sails has toned down their marketing of molded sails lately)

Last, if safety was the big consern it was touted as in the last ballot, why was it not allowed to change standing rigging to syntetic materials instead. Lightweight crews could have righted the boats easier, and they could have been cut with a serrated knife in an emergency..

A quick search on this site, will bring back all the arguments made pro/con before the ballot last year.. The best was when Roland Gabler (German Olympic T Team) strongly advised against the masts, then the class president came out strongly against Rolands arguments.. Chaotic indeed..

It has been my understanding through correspondence with Marlstrom, that the "deciding factor" to convert to carbon for Tornado masts was not one of "performance, but due mostly to the continued and growing difficulty to procure "reliable" sources and costs for the supply of aluminium sections. The same situation applies here in Australia and has made the conversion to carbon not so much "a choice" but more a necessity to ensure future reliable supply.

I read an article last week in either the St. Petersburg Times or the Tampa Tribune on real estate in the Keys, specifically Key West. All of the old "Conchs" are moving out of there because the real estate has skyrocketed. The cheapest housing for sale was a 240 sq. ft. condo going for well over $200K. Houses bought for $60K in the seventies are going for over $1 million now. The people who own property are selling and becoming instatnt millionaires. Key West is having a hard time filling lower-paying jobs because those people cannot afford to live there anymore. Someone should be prodding the local government to preserve beach & boat access for the general public but it's hard to get them to stand up to the big money being put up by the developers. This is happening to all of the waterfront in Central & South Florida. A good real estate market, decent economy and no income tax in FL is bringing all sorts of people down here willing to spend extroadinary sums of money on property. People are buying multi-million dollar houses on the water, just to tear them down and build even bigger houses. The sad thing is that this will probably not improve. I'm thankful for the places we do have and try to do my part in keeping them picked up and problem-free so as to not create attention and have them taken away. The Dunedin Causeway for example. There are always people who want to have all boat access removed from there. By keeping it clean and not causing any scenes we keep it out of the target scope. We'll leave the littering, fighting and obnoxious behavior to the PWC crowd ;-)

I'm not sure about Dingram's comments, but I HAVE seen a real-estate listing with a photo that was the spitting image of Rowell's. Looks like the place is going for about $3MM. Maybe if we all anty-up a couple thousand clams each, we could purchase it and build our OWN condos, sell them, and become millionaires.

Of course, we'd still have no place to sail, but we could all afford Marstrom 20s, which would have to sit on trailers all day because we can't find a place to put them in the water....