NAHCA and the Open Catamaran Clubs: What Happened?

Perhaps it’s only me, but the pink elephant of the 2005 sailing season, the infamous hobie edict, deserves some discussion on April Fools Day. The 2005 sailing season is getting underway and I think it’s appropriate to assess the outcome of the political changes initiated by the IHCA and NAHCA with respect to catamaran racing opportunities for all sailors.

It appears that all of the Hobie fleets and Regional cat sailing clubs from the Gulf Coast, Florida and up the east coast through Maryland have chosen to host open catamaran events while offering one design Hobie classes when appropriate. One new regional organization, The Eastern Multihull Sailing Association; EMSA was created to organize the racing season on the lower eastern seaboard. The Hobie fleets of Delaware and New Jersey area which form the core of Hobie Division 11 choose to restrict their events to Hobie only boats. The very successful, Sandy Hook Catamaran Club on the northern edge of Division 11 will host both Open and Hobie only events this year in serving their membership. The good news is that the impact on the catamaran sailors in these regions has been negligible because there are very few non hobie racing sailors in the New Jersey, Delaware, Pennsylvania region. The Hobie fleets focus on Division 11 Hobie racing serves the Hobie 16, 17 and 18 fleets. The A class fleets are located at a few clubs and are self sufficient hosting small regattas. One club, Chesapeake Hobie Fleet 54 is on the border and they are holding their breath with respect to turnout for their popular Gunpowder Open Regatta in May. Sailors with Hobie 20’s and Tigers are faced with 2 boat or fewer turnouts at the Hobie division events without the presence of an open class to play with.

Proceeding north up through New England presents a slightly different story. Another new regional sailing association was created to coordinate and schedule racing in New England, The New England Catamaran Sailing Association or NECSA joins the Long Island Catamaran Association (LICSA) to coordinate the regional sailing scene. It appears that clever scheduling has allowed different clubs to host two Hobie only racing weekends while the non Hobie fleets compete at different regatta locations on those same weekends without conflicting. It would appear that sailors won’t loose any sailing opportunities due to the policy changes… (just a smaller party) and on the plus side they can train lots of RC personnel.

Proceeding westward, upstate New York and Ontario maintain a Hobie only regatta focus. Open catamaran clubs don’t seem to have organized in this region and regattas such as the Unlimited Regatta at Kingston may be looking for support from all sailors. Non Hobie sailors will miss out since the Rochester Open regatta changed course and opted to be Hobie only this year.

The Michigan and Wisconsin regions are very well organized due to the efforts of Rrgional sailing organizations Catamaran Racing Association of Michigan or CRAM and the Catamaran Racing Association of Wisconsin or CRAW. These clubs host open events and support one design fleets when possible. Two events appear to be off limits to non Hobies in the region, however a robust high quality active schedule is available for all of the region’s cat sailors. Continuing southward finds the Ohio Catamaran Racing association or OCRA which also supports open racing events.

So, the sailing scene east of the Mississippi River has been negatively impacted by the Hobie initiative. However, I don’t have any sense of the magnitude of the impact on catamaran racers in the upstate New York region. For the most part, the changes have all occurred on paper as clubs and regions have created new documentation for name changes, bank accounts and insurance purposes. Time will tell if the impact is truly negligible.

Respectfully

Mark Schneider

With the price of gas hitting all time highs… many sailors may just stay local this year. Sigh...

Not sure what has transpired west of the river… Anyone?

As concerns South TX & Louisiana, "Division 6", there is interesting dialog between a member & several NAHCA officers posted at :
http://maillist.ellinger.org/~catamaranws/~austin/
The thread is called "Response to HCA Membership Solicitation".

Any news is good news in catamaran sailing.In open events such as ours we had a great showing by John McKnight on a Hobie 20 against a lot of good competition.Sailors on the fence about dusting off there garaged cats might get the itch to come out again and participate.Hobie Cat's decision is one of self preservation of one design fleet racing. We all have a choice as to what we want to do,where we want to sail and what we want to sail in, so long as the enjoyment of sailing continues..........In a year or two we could see the demise again of exclusive one-design events..

In reply to Jim Casto

It looks like Hobie is following the same plan they used to force the Hobie Fleets to seperate from the MSA in the 80's. Based on that plan they will recruit new sailors, probably at nationals, to form a "recognized fleet" and division. The problem is, it's hard to find a wide eyed newbie these days.

Seperate topic - Are you coming down for drinks in the pool at HYC this year? The A's are already getting prep'ed. We are going to have 2 months of Wed Night Races at HYC starting tomarrow.

If that were to take place you might as well pack it in. Racing straight up will ALWAYS be the goal of racing sailors. Look at the F18 class. This class is a HUGE compromise, and is one of the main reasons it is popular! Handicap racing is NOT the future of our sport!

I support Hobie Corps desire to preserve and promote One-Design racing I just don't support their methods.

David Ingram

Ditto for me.

Dave, the way I interpret the comment from DYSC is that we may see the demise of Hobie one design racing (SMOD). I don't think this necessarily applies to straight-up racing in general, such as F18.

So I don't think we need conclude that the health of catamaran sailing in general is going to be deterrmined by the Hobie strategy (if that was your concern).

Mark.

Jim, Div 6 only covers Lake Charles/far SW in Louisiana.

As for the central Gulf, it has, and continues to be, mostly open class with NO extant Hobie fleets between Lake Chuck and Panama City, despite what the HCA insists (they still list fleets in New Orleans and Ocean Springs and they DO NOT exist...)

Nothing changes for us down here Central Gulf, with the possible exception of distaste for Hobie's methods of getting sailors under their umbrella.

Sea ya
tami
Vice Commodore, Coast Catamaran Club
Ocean Springs (Biloxi) Mississippi

And it is pretty obvious that the entire state of Florida is OPEN.
Rick

I sail a H-18 and am a member of CRAM. I dislike sailing portsmouth but with so few Hobie 18s around its tough to get a fleet, even at a "Hobie Regatta". I would love to get a F-18 but $$. (My wife states that if I spend that much it better have a motor & keep her dry). I will sail anywhere that I am welcome and has some good racing. That means that I will sail in OCRA, CRAM and Hobie Division 10. If you can, buy and race what everyone else is in your location. The choice of boat has a lot to do with your local dealer & their support of the local regattas.

The changes have had little effect in Div. 5 (Mountain States). In fact, Fleet 61 in Denver has grown by five or six members in the last few months. We had about 100 people at our spring party, and we get 35 to 45 boats at our two biggest regattas. According to Colorado State registration records, there are at least 900 Hobie owners in Colorado.

Definite negative effect in Northern California...

Really? I got the impression that besides a few minor instances, that the racing would remain Hobie up that'er way.

Our Fleet and a number of other Fleets in Division 16 have decided to go with the one-design approach because it's basically what everyone wants; to be able to test their skills against a sailor and not a boat. Of course, our decision was made easier since we have very few none-Hobie racers in our area, nothing near the competition in the mid-west or down in Florida.

If the numbers of non-Hobies in our area ever increases, I could see us changing our approach to racing. But right now, we're happy to just be on the water and racing one-design.

Wyatt

Wyatt,
Just out of curiosity, how do you deal with it if you have Hobies show up that do not have enough for a one-design class: Like if you get a Hobie 18, an 18SX, an 18 Magnum, a Hobie 17 and a Hobie 14, and maybe a 21 and maybe a Wave?

Mary:

Aside from two H-17s and one Miracle, we haven't had to deal with any other designs yet. The open race for those three were run portsmouth. We're kind of lucky that we have almost a dozen H18s in our area, and the magnums just take their wings off. The two TheMightyHobie18 SX in our area have decided to work the race committee and not race themselves.

We've talked about all the possibilities, but we haven't had to do anything yet. I guess one possibility is to list the registrants on our website so people could see what kind of boats will be entered.

I'll tell you more in July!

Wyatt

Wyatt,
Part of the reason I asked is that I heard a rumor that one of the divisions up in that area (I don't know whether it was yours) plans to not actively discourage participation but also not to actively encourage it for Hobies that do not have enough boats for a one-design fleet.

If that is true, I think that is a very unfortunate attitude designed to hasten the demise of the smaller classes under the Hobie umbrella -- and also reduce the number of Hobie sailors in general.

I have been saying for years that there should be individual class associations for the various Hobie classes under the overall umbrella of the Hobie Class Association, so each class can have people working on building their own class of boat, both nationally and locally, and getting more attendance at regattas so they CAN get enough boats for one-design fleets.

But lacking that, I think that at the very least ALL Hobies of whatever type (even if they have a boat that is not being built any more) should feel welcome to attend any Hobie regatta and know that they will be able to race somehow. If the people with dead or dying classes feel welcome to come to regattas, they will either work harder to get more of their kind to come, too, OR they may decide to give up on their class and buy one of the boats that do have active racing fleets. Either way, at least you will still be welcoming them and keeping them on the water.

As it is, since the Hobie Class has said it will not allow an open class, it makes it sound like they will not allow an open class, period, even if it is for Hobies. Perhaps that should be clarified so Hobies without enough for a fleet will not stay home.

Mark,

You very well may be correct and I may have read DSYC's post wrong, but I do know several sailors that truely believe open/handicap sailing is better than OD or Formula. We just had a heated debate on another forum about OD/Formula vs. open. There has also been serveral threads here dedicated to the subject.

Dave

Wyatt

The Rochester regatta was an open regatta and the years I attended had 20+ boats in the open class. (Great event!) What happened to them or will happen to them in your region?

Mark

Mark - last year, there were only 4 non-Hobies at the Rochester regatta. Out of about 60 boats.

There is an open multihull event at Canadaigua Yacht Club in mid-September should they want to go to a major event.

Matt,
But is it possible that non-Hobies did not show up at Rochester last year because they had heard about the new Hobie policy and weren't sure whether they were welcome or not?

Maybe they were deterred from attending in 2004 by what Paul Ulibarri said in his initial decree regarding the phase-out plan to eliminate non-Hobies during 2004:

"Recognizing the far reaching and immediate negative results the implementation will no doubt have for your organization, we request that you develop a plan for meeting this directive and submit it to the IHCA Executive Director by December 31, 2003.

"The NAHCA phase out plan must include several IHCA imposed conditions, specifically;
"The plan must terminate by December 31, 2004.
"• Open Class boats permitted to participate under a phase out program will be restricted only to boats that have previously participated in a Hobie event prior to August 1, 2003 i.e Only Skipper and boat combinations that were raced in Hobie events prior to August 1, 2003 will be permitted to race in any 2004 Hobie event.
"• No new Open Class boats will be permitted to participate.
"• Skippers of all Open Class boats eligible and desiring to participate in this phase out program will be required to obtain IHCA or Regional Annual Membership for 2004."


This is me again talking: Based upon the above, I would guess that the phase-out plan effectively discouraged most non-Hobies from trying to participate in 2004.

So the four non-Hobies that did show up probably are the few people who did not get the message.

I only bring this up to point out that just because only four boats showed up does not mean that there are not a bunch more out there who would have liked to show up. So those statistics do not necessarily mean anything.

Mark:

Matt really described what most of us see here. Many of us were determined to retain the open classes, until we looked at the real numbers of participation in our Division. Fleet 204 out of Syracuse seems to be the biggest Regatta traveling Fleet and they are all Hobies. It takes just as much work to run a fifty boat regatta as it does a twenty boat regatta, so we decided to go with the numbers.

I don't want to get into this Hobie vs non-Hobie stuff again. I agree with Mary that it would be a shame to lose any participation for any orphan Hobie, but we weren't sure if there was anything we could do about it.
I think Rochester analyzed it the same way.

We want to be happy again...We want to sail and meet afterwards for a beer...

Wyatt

Mary:

I guess you and I were typing at the same time.

I can assure you that all of the Fleets in our Division were promoting open classes in 2004. Everyone knew that all boats were welcomed (with the exception of 204's Madcatter). We were all surprised at the lower numbers. I'm not sure why we have larger Hobie numbers in this area; I agree that the Inter 17s, Nacra 5.8's and 6.0's are super boats, but they have no local dealerships and are just not promoted in this area. There are Hobie dealerships in Buffalo and Syracuse NY.

We tried hard to stress business as usual, and the numbers seemed to tell us which way to go. Most Fleets are run by 20% of the membership and most of these are active racers that want to continue to offer a nice venue.

Wyatt

Looking back on results from past Rochester events along with all of Div.16 shows that there has not been more than 7 non Hobie boats in the past 10 plus years at any regatta Many of the boats listed in the open class were Hobie's. There is usually only 4 non Hobie's. The open class did not start up in Div.16 because of a demand by non Hobie's but by the protest of Hobie owners that did not want to use a comp tip. Inviting non Hobies was started by the smaller events to help them financially. Fleet 204 did not exclude anyone. As per fleet charters we ran a Hobie only event all along. I personally think it would be great to have an F18 start and allow the Sharks from Canandaigua to participate at the Madcatter. The CMOR regatta the Shark Fleet runs is great and has always welcomed us. It would be nice to reciprocate and allow thier one design fleet to race with us.

I don't guess that running two regattas at the same time would be allowed? I know that defeats the whole idea by Hobie, but areas that have a good mix of boats would want the numbers to help financially. The other thing that I don't see mentioned is; for the average racer the only reason to go to Hobie only regattas is for the points. How many does this affect? Hobie fleets in our area have come and gone. As commodore in the late '80s we had a "Hobie regatta" in which we sent results of the Hobie fleet races. Other than that, there was no other involvement from Hobie. Unless the class association is footing the bill what is the advantage?

BTW I've always had a hobie... 18, 20, 16 so I'm not against the boat or mfr., my next one I'd like to have is a Tiger! So I'm not anti Hobie, just anti exclusion.

Clayton
S27, H16

In division 9 we tried it from all these angles. However, HCA is pretty clear that they're not interested in any side-stepping work arounds. Obviously, they can't police every event, but they expect the regatta (and the course) be dedicated to Hobie.

The Kiwi has it spot on! Keep "Dittoing" Mary........There is a mainstream group of catamaran racing sailors in Florida that evolve there boat choice as general interest wanes in there existing class.To get the next best thing and promote it is naturel. The I20 is still there but for how much longer before it falls or ends up in Delray ! Dingram correct me if I am wrong but you were all about the I20 for some time,now you moved to F18. Are you pushing the 1design group to move to F18 with you?

The only thing I am pushing is 1design/Formula not a particular boat or brand, and I am still all about the N20 (I love that damn boat), but I won't sail it open if it comes to that! As you can clearly see I am not a fan of open racing. It serves a purpose but it also has some significant problems.

I have and sail both the N20 and the F18. I travel probably as much if not more than any multihull sailor in Florida. I will sail the boat that is predicted to have the largest class for a given regatta. Because I travel so much I don't have to settle for sailing open.

Yes, I am a 1design/Formula bigot!

Dave

Ditto again.

Looks like one hell of a marketing oportunity for some micro brewery - Hobie Beer.
"Keep your regatta all Hobie"

Well said, I am also anti exclusion, Not sure what HCA has that is not freely available to anyone or why the racing community cares what this manufacturer decries. Our fleets could hold hobie only regatta's and 1/2 the boats would show up. While this might seem an acceptable loss to some I would ask why? Why does anyone care what Hobie demands, Our fleet is insured directly and separately from HCA, we are free Americans and we enjoy being such. I say put an end to racism or fleetism. If cat sailors need to belong then why not the American or World Catamaran Assn. with a Texas fleet and a California fleet. There are all kinds of racism, why do cat sailors have to indulge in yet another kind of we and them.

I am not anti-exclusion on the part of the Hobie people. I am just pro one-design and/or formula for all classes of boats. If the Hobie Class policy works to increase the size of their one-design fleets, that's great.

Meanwhile, one-design fleets of other classes will have more chance to grow because they now have more opportunities to race in Open, non-Hobie events as one-design fleets instead of being put into a Portsmouth class.

So the Hobie policy is probably already resulting in helping more of the non-Hobie one-design fleets to flourish.

Only 4 to 7 non hobies showing, so we are going to exclude them. Thats around 4-700$ per regatta that could help defray the expenses, plus 8-14 people that dont get to race/sail.
What a shame that we judge a person by their boat and not as a fellow sailor. dont get me wrong, I understand the HCA edict, but I dont have to agree.

David
F18-non denominational

One-Design sailing and open class sailing can and do coexist...the Midwest is living proof of that. CRAM, CRAW, and OCRA provide both one-design racing, when there are enough of the same boat to make a fleet...and when there are not, they provide an open fleet and utilize portsmouth ratings.

Additionally, I don't think there would be a single person in any of those groups who would say that the revitalization of the Hobie fleets and Division 10 itself has been detrimental to their organizations. I fact, we have added significant numbers of boats to some of their events.

The Hobie Class Association is one of the best one-design class associations in the world. By directing all of their efforts to one-design racing, we can assure the continuing growth and success of local, regional, national, and world events. One design racing...racing in it's purest form.

Jeff

I'm going to attempt this point for the billionth time.

While I don't think that anyone would argue that onedesign and/or formula is purest racing...

...the purists all neglect to consider that the average catamaran sailor PURCHASES HIS BOAT FOR THINGS OTHER THAN JUST RACING.

He has financial considerations (looked at prices of new boats today?)
He has considerations for local conditions
He has considerations for used-boat availability
He has considerations for the casual use of his boat (I bet most of his time is spent casually sailing)

I have maintained, and still maintain, that the average catamaran sailor purchases his boat with racing being rather far down on his list of things that are important in his boat purchase consideration.

I'm DAMNED if I'll exclude 75% (we have more than half our regatta attendance non-Hobie class) of any regatta because I want to force someone to purchase a certain boat in order to race, which is what this onedesign purist crap boils down to.

You want to lose people from our sport? You go right ahead on and demand that people buy a certain boat - that'll do it for sure.

Your best answer is Formula racing... and even then, I'd bet there are LOTS of people who don't want to put even that much money into it.

sea ya
tami
Vice-commodore, Coast Catamaran Club
Ocean Springs, Mississippi
Most happily sailing my 23-y.o. NACRA 18sq, and ain't ABOUT to give her up.

Amen!

Tami I'm with you,

Whose best interest is being served?,
is it the hobie 17 sailor that gets to go to a hobie only regatta with his other 2 hobie 17 pals and they get a 1,2& 3rd place for their "Class race" and never have to be tainted with the horrible visual of a brand new x17 made by yyy corporation with all the new innovations that can be put on a 17 foot boat?

I am certain it is not in the best interest of the sport to exclude X% of the sailors from a regatta and all they know about racing. What happens when they organize themselves and then the hobie fleet wants to come play and cant?

News Flash: New catamaran fleet formed all cats except hobies are welcome.

I am personally sick of the "we are better than them and you cant play with us" attitude.

If hobie is the last cat manufacturer standing then when it is time to buy another boat I guess it will be a hobie, or a home built maybe I'll call my new company yyy corporation.

"beating a dead horse"

beating a dead horse: You are beating a dead horse when you insist on talking about something that cannot be changed. Example: "I'd like to talk with you again about what happened." Reply: "Oh, come on. Let's not beat a dead horse."

Beating a dead horse is an action that has no purpose, because no matter how hard or how long you beat a dead horse, it is not going to get up and run. Example: "Let's not talk about it any more. Okay?" Reply: "You're right. We're just beating a dead horse."

To repeatedly bring up a particular topic with no chance of affecting the outcome is beating a dead horse. Example: "Dad, are you sure we can't get a new computer for the upstairs?" Reply: "Son, we talked about this and the decision was 'no'. You are beating a dead horse."

http://www.goenglish.com/BeatADeadHorse.asp

Foregoing the opportunity to make sarcastic comparisons between the HCA and the "dead horse" you say it is, do you really think the HCA should have no interest in what the people who belong to it (or did) think?

This post has a great deal of relevance in seeking out the impact of the 'edict' around the U.S. I'm certainly interested in it as should everyone in the sport regardless of what they sail. ESPECIALLY those within any organizational capacity.

This thread was hijacked!

My summary and question were... What is the impact.
Based on the responses. I would modify the summary of the survey as follows.

Texas, the Gulf coast, Florida, the South East and the Chesapeake.... No changes on the water. Club have chosen to run open regattas with one design classes.

Upstate New York. Some non hobie sailors cannot participate in regattas that they previously supported in the New York Region.
The Shark one design fleet may loose out on some racing since other clubs don't reciprocate and host them any longer
Hobie sailors without one design fleets race in a smaller Hobie open.

New Jersey/Deleware. No changes. No non hobie racers who loose out. Hobie 20 and tiger sailors have very small open hobie fleets.

Sandy Hook... They run both kinds of events.

New England. Clever sheduling means Hobie and non hobie sailors compete at seperate clubs for two weekends.

Colorado. No changes... No non hobie sailors who would loose out.

Wisconson, Michigan and Ohio run open events. No changes, Two events seem to be Hobie only.

One cryptic comment concerning California about non hobie sailors missing out on traditional regattas. ???? Could be the region most impacted by the politics.

Hobiezelot is right. The horse is dead... The question is ...

Did the rotting carcas of the dead horse foul the water?

Have I characterized your region accurately?

Take Care
Mark

(Started me thinking about how long the pope can last on that slab before he starts stinking since they don't pickle popes)


PS Dave and Mary... start your own thread on the virtues of one design.

The Result??!!

Being one of the "few" who read P.U.'s email directly from him (as I was one of the initial who went A class) have now more opportunity to race then before.

Yes....one desing/ formula is great...it has made me (and making me) a better sailor. Do I miss some of my Hobie Friends.....? I sure do....BUT

I made a choice to give up my I-20 (a sad day indeed) and now have (as do all the other A's in the NW, under the nose of P.U.) more venues...more racing...and new friends. So to get to the point...the result up in the NW, has been positive...we have grown our A class fleet, we have grown our schedule.....

Was that not our intention to begin with.....??

Please check out our local NW A class web-site (and see first hand the group who got the infamous e-mail

www.acatsnw.com

Clear skies,

Michael

so at the expense of the Hobie fleet, the one design class has grown? I dont think that was PU's intention, but if the A's benefited and more one design racing began from the fragmented non-hobies that were out there, then great!
I only hope it did not hurt the Hobie fleet.

David
F18

And there is Canada which is completely open/formula. Any vestiges of Hobie/one design are donefor.

Then what is open ? Formula racing in itself is open class sailing,set a few parameters and bingo you've got boats with 15 years of technology or more between them on the line.Even by current standards there are consistant boat manufacturers that are winners and that being said with apparent equality of experience on the helm.Open formula serves a purpose,what is it then? And don't tell me resale of your present boat so you can go to the next popular class.You and Mary agree about the inferiority of "Handicap racing" but almost every race in Florida is handicapped and segregated by the boats measurements. I guess your formula racing needs Handicap racing to feed it.An omnipotent zero tolerance attitude towards any racing and that clubs efforts to put on the event, will squash it if there is not an inherant fleet of something to save it.Delray is an open agenda of 60 boats smack on the beach all year long. If the strongest fleets in the country are the one's with venues such as ours.What would you do in our situation starting all over with a clean slate. And again are you trying to push the F18 formula in the 1design group. And nice double Ditto Mary...

I totally disagree that F18 is related in any way to open class sailing. I haven't seen boats that are 15 years different competeting in F18 - All the 16 boats at Spring Fever were newer than 4 years and were purposely built for F18 racing. The F18 boats are built to a strict rule. You will not, however, be able to add a spinnaker and adjust the sail size on a Hobie 18 and be competitive - but we've not seen anyone attempt such a change. The Tiger and Nacra F-18 boats are terribly even in capability with neither showing a clear speed advantage in my opinion.

F18 offers sailors a spinnaker boat of a length that is manageable by most people with a power level that is manageable by most people (I'm talking male and female crews here too) that has the added bonus of putting manufacturers head to head, allowing the sailors to stick with the brand they like the most, and still be very even and competitive. I've sailed in open classes for three years and this is most certainly not one.

Mark, I think it is very relevant to the subject of this thread if one of the results of the Hobie edict has been to create more open venues where one-design racing and formula racing is allowed for all classes, as well as handicap racing.

The former Hobie policy, which allowed one open class of non-Hobies, discouraged development of non-Hobie one-design classes (at least in some areas of the country). That policy also perpetuated the myth that only Hobies race one-design and that the only way you can race one-design is by owning a Hobie.

From some of the comments in this thread, it seems that my prediction last year may be starting to come true -- that the Hobie edict might actually be a benefit to some non-Hobie classes and increase the numbers racing both one-design and formula.

Now people have more incentive to promote and develop one-design and formula classes. It is too early to tell whether there will be a strong trend in that direction and whether this will affect the sizes of the open handicap classes.

Obviously, many people just plain prefer handicap racing or else have no choice in the matter because they can't afford a different boat or don't want a different boat and/or can't get enough of their class together to race as a fleet.

All I am saying one of the secondary effects of the Hobie edict is that there are now more options available to racing sailors.

Hi Mary

Hmm.

More options available???

Not sure how you come to that conclusion. Seems to me that in prior years, clubs that could run a non hobie one design... did so! I don't know of any clubs who felt constrained by the previous Hobie rules and limited their classes in their event to one non hobie class. Do you??? The reality is that few class's could get enough turnout to warrant a one design class at most regattas. I don't think the offer of a one design class generated turnout.

For example, Spring Fever dropped in attendance once again this year. They run lots of very small one design fleets. Why hasn't the concept caught on! It’s the first well funded regatta east of the Mississippi and central to much of the region. It should have been able to maintain the 100 plus boats of a just a few years ago. They still do the same great job… Why the huge drop off in turnout?

My answer is... Its not worth a 12 hour drive to race in a 5 boat one design fleet. IMO, It would be worth a 12 hour drive to race in a 20 boat portsmouth fleet of SIMILAR boats .. if you will an ersatz formula class!... Why… because it will likely be competitive, and there for fun (no matter what my skill level is)..

The only regatta that seems to have maintained or grown in attendance is the Michigan CatFight.... IMO, The reason is large portsmouth fleets of similar boats which you can go racing against. In the end you go racing against another sailor… not another boat.. For example at the top of fleet, Matt Struble on a F18 and Robbie Daniel on a Tornado competed in the open spin fleet each winning a few races and of course they won their respective one design classes…. (PS… Nobody in the Tornado fleet was competitive with Robbie….)

As reported by many of the EU and many other places in the world sailors… they don’t hassle with lots of small one design fleets… they race everyone on texel and then split out classes and overall. Their small regattas are larger then our very best attended events…. IMO, it might have something to do with competition… and less to do with one design/formula..

So... the policy that clubs adopt with respect to how they organize the racing matters. Obviously, I think that Spring Fever gets it wrong and that is part of the reason that people don't travel to the regatta. I don’t see any evidence that the Hobie Edict has grown one design participation in the old fleets…. In fact, If you and NAHCA were serious about “one design” then you would NOT run a Hobie Open class at Hobie regattas…. Offering this kind of racing simply undercuts the one design racing in the proven strong Hobie classes. You and NAHCA should enforce the policy… 5 or more boats pre registered and pre paid or there is no regatta for you. Here’s your refund…. Please put it towards a one design race boat!

In your words..Just say no to open AND FORCE ONE DESIGN By SENDING THEM HOME
(the only plausible outcome of your "just say no mindset"!

What evidence do you have that One design racing is growing participation in the sport of cat racing and not just shuffling the players… (Eg Dave Ingram is a perfect example of a the shuffle I and MystereBob observed)

Take Care
Mark

Ditto

Mark, I have no idea whose words or ideas those are, but they sure are not mine!!

As you well know, I am in favor of total inclusion of all boats for all regattas.

Yes I know that... BUT... if you think that one design is that important... You are on board with the just say no to Open class... THEN you need to act like a one design club

If you don't have the required turnout... You loose your start and your parking spaces in the club. This kind of enforcement keeps people in the one design fleet and keeps them active. Sell your boat and purchase the one design race boat.

I don't think this works. How hard nose do you want to be with enforcing one design?

Take Care
Mark

With that question you are hijacking your own thread.

Obviously, nothing that happens within our little catamaran community brings in outside people. We just shuffle around from boat to boat, class to class.

But I do think that if we had a good variety of viable one-design classes in a lot of venues, we would be more likely to attract new sailors from the monohull ranks.

Again, Mark, why are you talking to me? Why aren't you talking to the Hobie Class?

I am all in favor of open class, one-design, formula, whatever people want to sail or race. I have no involvement with the Hobie Class.

Heck, all I said was that there are more options available to everybody now as a result of the Hobie edict than there were before. Doesn't matter a whit to me which option they want. We sail both (or is it all three) options. Whatever works for any given regatta.

Mark,

I have to jump in here and just comment on the Spring Fever turn out.

The reasons I have heard for the decrease in attendance is the lack of wind at the event. *Personally*, I've only heard one person make your complaint (above) about Spring Fever and that was you.

Tracie

Portsmouth SUX!

Perhaps I misunderstood.

You joined Dave Ingram in a support of the notion... "just say no to open class racing." I added the rest of the thought that must naturally follow from this philosophy.

Perhaps you want to modify your position on how clubs run races and balance one design and open classes. "Just say no to open" is untenable in most of the country. I know that you personally don't like open class racing. The next quesition is: How valuable is it to have a 3 or 4 boat one design fleets? Is this a winning strategy to grow clubs and participation? How do you see it working?... Where has this happened? I don't know your position here. I am guessing that you would answer YES.... they will work to get the next boat out etc etc. What support do you have for this notion... It hasn't kept the hobie classes going very well.

In the end you then wind up like the the Hobie Class Association and deliver a mixed message. If its "we are about one design racing "... then.... you should not have any handicap racing ... AND they and you should enforce the 5 boat minimum so that a one design designation means something. (That is what one design dinghy clubs do!)

If NAHCA wants to say... This association supports anything with an H... That's OK too. However... they should moderate the one design rhetoric a bit to match their mission.

I raised this issue to measure What if any negative outcomes were realized.

So far... the damage looks minimal (a bit of surprise actually). I haven't heard anyone claim.. Because of the Hobie policy... I only have 1/2 the races available to me in my region sailing my X boat.

In the end... they will net the costs and benefits and see how they do. They stated they expect to loose fleets but they viewed their actions as good for the long run.. Time will tell. They havent made a convincing case to me.

I look forward to hearing from you on how 2 3 and 4 boat one design fleets are good for the sport and the growth of cat racing.

Take Care
Mark

Ah, finally I figured out what you are talking about, Mark. I went back through this thread four times and couldn't find where Dave Ingram said "just say no to open and force one design."

Duh! It is in the subject line of his posts and in the subject line of this one, too. I NEVER look at the subject line of posts, so I'm sorry you got the wrong impression.

NO, I absolutely do not agree with that sentiment. It is ridiculous, and contrary to all my beliefs. I was just agreeing with the text in his posts.

P.S. Somebody should change the subject line back to the original. Mark?

Jake I also was taking into account everything I thought was considered a formula racing boat, Europe,Australia, wherever there is formula Racing.If its F18 were talking, then when is the last time someone on a Mystere Twister or Mattia ,Dart Hawk,Ventilo was consistantly winning enough that you sit up and take notice.These boats are now being overshadowed in there own class.And If I am wrong then I'll take a hit for it.The message I am getting is that handicapp racing is unnecessary and everyone better buy a Formula boat before its to late.Every boat out there was a formula 1design boat at one time and time put an end to that to.These days we are through a boat class faster than ever. I'd love to hear from somone that counts, thats in charge,That owns and manufactures boats on this forum, whenever this subject comes up. "D'ont sail into whale tail"...... Thanks Bob

Hijacking the thread again, but a big reason for Spring Fever fall off is the RAIN!

In Australia "open class" or racing with each different class of cat sailing with their allocated handicap/yardstick, and ALL racing against each other has always been and always will be universal. It is the most successful way of having the greatest number of cats at any given event and it is liked by all who compete on cats here. The only time that OD is raced is for class, state or national heats and even those are more often than not, raced in conjunction with, and within fleets of other classes of cats racing on yardstick at local clubs. I (and most sailors that I talk to here) just find this debate that you are having in the states completely "strange" and more than a little bemusing. Cats are cats and the more that sail together and the greater their variations, the greater the "fun" sailing against and with each other.

All I can say is up in the NW, it was easier for a one desing A class fleet to join in existing races. The local YC's, skiff fleets, sailing clubs...all were accomodating. However....almost all said "no" to any kind of handicapping, as the scoring process is delayed. Furthermore, most are advertised as a 'one design regatta'.

As far as Hobie o/d racing goes..I do have a question. It is being said that Hobie is going to produce an A cat this year. If so, does that mean that only "hobie" A's would be allowed? Clearly the A cat is not one design, so if 3 hobie sailors buy a hobie A could not other A's join them?

Probably a bit hypothetical because they have not even made the boat yet....just guessing?

Clear skies,

Michael

Hey Darryl -

What handicap system do y'all use?

Since nobody from the Southwest U.S. has chimed in yet, I just thought I would add to Mark's thread that probably the Hobie edict did not affect some of those areas.

Down in Arizona they seem to have gotten it figured out a long time ago. They have Hobie Fleet 66 in Phoenix and Hobie Fleet 514 in Tucson and they have Multihull Fleet 42 in the Phoenix area, which organized in 1980 and is open to all cats.

The Hobie fleets do some events on their own, and Fleet 42 does some events on its own, but they also all do a lot of events together.

I don't know what the Hobie fleets there are like now, but when we were in that area back in the early '90's, the Phoenix and Tucson fleets were among the (if not THE) biggest in the country.

Anyway, those three fleets seem to have a really good relationship which allows the Hobie fleets to be exclusionary as far as their own fleets but there is an optional home for the non-Hobies -- and everybody gets along together and plays together and do charity events together, etc.

They all tend to go to the same lakes, and they all do their major regattas down in Mexico on the Sea of Cortez.

I guess when you are sailors living in the desert, you tend to flock together no matter what you sail -- like all sorts of animals ending up at the same watering holes, and sharing.

As a long time cat sailor and long time lurker on this site, I wanted to give my history on one design vs open class. Long ago, when Hobie 16's ruled the world, you either worked your way up through "C" fleet to "B" fleet then got your butt handed to you in "A" fleet, or you learned to play golf. Working you way thru the fleets meant being on time for starts, knowing the right of of the line, which side of the course was favored, what the tide was doing, staying for the whole regatta, ect. To me, open class was for people who liked to tinker, play with their boats on the beach, complain about how someone else's boat performs better in certain conditions, ect. I have to agree with Mary, et al. that formula/onedesign eliminates all those excuses and promotes what the sport is supposed to be all about.

There is a "yardstick" handicapping system used almost universally here John, maintained by the Victorian Yachting Council, known as the Victorian Yachting Council Yardstick, shortened to VYC YS. It is based on multiple results from all over Australia from regattas, club races, etc, on an ongoing update “back calculation” from those results. As it encompasses, most, if not all classes racing, no matter where and when and through every imaginable sailing condition, as long as there is this regular accurate reporting of comparative results between different classes, then the resulting allocated performance “yardsticks” of every class compared to each other, is very accurate.
It seems to have worked well here for many many years, and it means that it doesn’t matter where you want to go to sail at any regatta, you know exactly what your “handicap will be and what every other boat sailing at that regatta will be as well. It encourages boats of different design, size etc, to compete against each other on the course as regardless of where you finish over the line, you know how you sailed against every other boat on the water. It enables you to compete against a much larger boat and if, for example you had sailed up to your yardstick and you had still finished five minutes over the line behind that larger/faster boat BUT he had not sailed to his yardstick, the results will show that you had out sailed him and won, on yardstick.
Similar to many handicapping systems world wide, but it is a system that works to perfection and everyone seems happy with it (no small feat when dealing with sailors?)

"Upstate New York. Some non hobie sailors cannot participate in regattas that they previously supported in the New York Region.
The Shark one design fleet may loose out on some racing since other clubs don't reciprocate and host them any longer
Hobie sailors without one design fleets race in a smaller Hobie open"

Mark: It's been my experience for the last twenty years that the sharks don't travel to beaches anymore. They have a few shark Regattas that they go to, but I haven't seem them away from their home base (Canandaigua Yacht Club) in many years. The boats don't beach-launch well.

We seem to be a one-design state. There are a few Nacras and Mystere's around, but they knew what they were buying at the time; they were always going to be in smaller open classes if they were going to race. The only exception in New York State was the Canandaigua Yacht Club's September Regatta which attracted about seventy boats at the season's end. It's more of a "farewell to Summer" Regatta, then a trophy Regatta. Very well run, and a lot of fun.

Wyatt

Open sailing is NOT going to grow the sport, or it hasn't for the last 10 years I've been involved with multihull racing. Open racing has it's place and purpose, but to trade straight up racing for numbers, just isn't worth it to me. If you have to beat someone by 5 minutes to win... you're no longer racing them you're racing the clock and that aint racing. If I wanted to race like that I'd get a lead mine with a sweetheart PHRF rating. That way I could enjoy my sandwich and a cool **** while I stomp the guy 30 minutes in front of me.

If you want to attract the mono guys we better have strong OD/Formula racing to offer them. Why else would they leave the comfort of their own open class to sail multihulls. And don't tell me it's because multi's are fast, sexy and fun, if that was all it took we would have converted the mono guys in the 70's!

Open racing is NOT our future!

Dave

I can say you are accurate for the gulf coast, and would only add that I am going to see if we can form an F20 class to include hobie 20 w/spin, N6.0 w/spin, I20, and Tornados,Etc. at Redfish Reach as the dead horse said, class racing is the best kind of racing. However selling your beloved boat to buy the Fad boat is not a great option.

I'll strongly disagree on open racing not growing the sport. Our open class club has grown significantly over the last couple of years, with quite a few people being new to cats or sailing. Some of those new to cats have had mono background, some of it one-design. The fact that they could buy a used boat, any used boat, to figure things out before spending lots on something newer has been key to their decision to get involved in the first place. If they had to buy a certain boat to race in one-design, well a portion of them wouldn't be sailing with us. While people have from time to time discussed dismay at ratings, nobody to my knowledge has left the Fleet because we race open. Comments on the positive nature of what we do relate to the fact that as a group we are friendly and helpful to all. Comments from the former one-design mono sailors mention the closed-off nature of the one-design world where nobody talks or shares their little nth-degree speed secret as being among the reasons they gave up racing in those venues.

From our success has sprung the local A-Cat scene, which is also growing leaps and bounds. A good portion of those sailors came from our Fleet. And, most of them have not given up the Tuesday night open racing, they just do it in addition to the A-Cat regattas. The A-Cats that don't participate are more dismayed with our racing being more mini-distance format than strict up and downwind.

As people from our club have moved to the A-Cat, we are filling in new members right behind them - looks like 5 new teams this year. And of the ones that moved to A-Cats, most are still members of WRCRA, and as mentioned above they still race with us even though their boats may be stored at a different club. So, we're growing and growing the sport in our area, and we're open class all the way.

As for monos - by far the biggest participation in mono racing on the Bay is PHRF weeknight races, not one-design. Getting these people to switch is mostly a matter of exposure to multihulls. Most are died in the wool mono people, and the issue of one design or handicap is meaningless for them to switch to multis or not.

That having been said, I believe the A-Cat is the perfect weapon in the fight switch mono dinghy sailors to cats. Its performance and agility is just the thing for that purpose, and yes it's heads up racing as well. As much as I know that the Hobie-16 is a great one-design and recreational boat, lots of mono sailors have bad memories of having sailed on one at one time or another. You'll hear stories of horrible tacking and capsizing and the like. These people will never move to any class that they associate with that, whether it's one design or handicap. They'll swear that cats can't go upwind or stay upright.

So, what grows the sport? Open? One Design? I say fixating on that question is killing the sport. Most of that conversation revolves around moving the existing participants into one method or another. There's room for both. What will grow the sport is forming clubs with the right frame of mind designed to bring new members in as old members stay or move on. Clubs that are designed to introduce new blood to sailing and to cats.

So, again, yes open racing has grown the sport, and even kept it from ceasing to exist in some areas. Is it the perfect form or racing? Probably not, but all things have their drawbacks, and what matters is the question or whether the merits outweigh the drawbacks for the people involved.

Rant mode off...

Open class has been the foundation of beach-cat racing since it started almost 50 years ago, and it is STILL the foundation. If the past is any predictor of the future, open class will always be the foundation.

Along the way one-design classes (and formula classes) spring up. Some survive and some die. But I think open class racing will always survive.

We would not have a fleet in Miami now if we had not formed an open club that welcomes all classes of cats.

Yes I totally agree that OPEN racing has HELPED the sport. In many areas its either open racing or none at all. And you certainly aren't going to attract new members when there is nothing going on! Open racing is just a fact of life for a lot of people who don't have a choice so stop bashing it guys.