Will this adjustable trapeze system work?

Has anyone tried to do this simple setup?

It'll work (it's exactly how the trapeze was set up on my first Condor back in '74) BUT, we improved it IMHO by taking the bungee up over a small block on the end of the wire (above the cleat) and then down to the ring. Also you probably need a T or L handle or similar above the cleat.

I found increasing the "2 to 1" purchase shown, to a purchase using "3 to 1" makes "one handed" lifting of sailor doable/easier on the wire. "Coke or Pepsi?"

Looking at that Tornado photo, I noticed that the bungi cord has what looks like a wierd fitting on the end. What kind of part is that? Where can I find it?

Thanks for the replies folks.

Yes it will work.

I use dogbones on my boat and have the setup you have drawn. In light airs you just pull the ring up to increase the tension in the bungee to get the trapeze line hang really straight. I prefer to lift myself up before going in, makes sliding over the hunwhale easier as well as getting out easier.

I'm using dyneema 3 mm high tensile line instead of wire and I only need a small amount of tension to have my trapeze line hang straight.

With dogbones you don't even need the little pully and shackle I just let the line run through the upper loop of the dogbone. That is low frictions enough.

When I get to my boat I will make a picture of it and send it to you Robi. This will take a week. The way I've done on it and that is very similar to what you have drawn results in the cheapest trapeze lines that are also the lightest while maintaining great adjustability.

Wouter

Is there enough stretch/travel on the bungee so it doesn't snap?

Wyatt

Robi,
The fitting at the end of the bungee on the Tornado is a Marstrom block that also helps seat/position the Marstrom ring. Check with Carla at Coconut Grove sails for availability. She's great to work with.
Todd A. Hart

NO! It does NOT work properly.
It CANNOT work properly.
Many people have bought boats with a trapeze rigged that way because the previous owner did not know what they where doing.

The purpose of a trapeze is to get the crew weight as far out and as low as possible. (Look at the Tornado picture)
Trap rings are usually set at, or slightly above, the gunnel of the boat.

The purpose of the bungy line is to store the trapeze in an easily accessible position
AND provide an upward pull to tension the ring in the harness.

In that design;
If the ring is set in the proper location, there is very little tension on the bungy to hold the trap in the proper storage location.
There is NO tension to hold the ring to the harness while hooking up.
Instead, it is trying to pull the ring out of the harness as you are moving off the boat. SPLASH!!!

If the ring is raised to provide tension, the crew WILL NOT be in the best position.


Don't try to reinvent the wheel.
Look at the Murrays.com catalogue, page 49 http://www.murrays.com/archive/49.pdf
Look at other boats on shore.
Look at other boats racing.
Most importantly, look at the winners. If something worked, at least one of them would be doing it.

Sam, I think you are confused with the drawing. The bungi is NOT used in the system, it is there just store it all when NOT in use.

Let me try to explain.
Trap wire comes from the top section of the mast.
Connects to a shackle
Cleat (NOT a cam cleat) connects to the shackle.
Bungi cord can be connected to the same shackle as above.
2:1 purchase line goes through cleat.
same purchase line goes down to a small single block attached to the handle, or in Wouters case goes through the dog bone, back up to the cleat.
Line goes through cleat, and the bitter end will have the stopper ball, so you can pull on it, or so you do not go splash.

According to a few folks here, it will work. I am confident enough it will work.

Actually Robi it will work but not as well as other systems. Sam is right. The bunji should create pressure on the trap handle so that it stays in contact with the hook. If it just dangles there it can come unhooked as you go out.

Plus I don't see a T handle that will help you pull yourself back onto the boat. You can grab the cleat but a T-handle would work better to get back on.

Mike Hill
Tiger #1520

I think I should elaborate on the topic here. As apparently I use a system that some-one thinks can never work.

My rings are indeed slightly above the gunnel of the boat But I still have sufficient bungee pressure on the traplines.



I do use 4 mm bungee now that runs underneath my tramp (and inside my mainbeam) 3 times ! See picture. I sew little blocks underneath my trampoline and under an angle a shown (this to prevent the bungee rubbing on itself. The bungee cord than comes up through the tramp via grommets. This way there is 5 mtr of 4 mm bungee cord attached to the trapeze instead of only 2 mtr 5mm or 4mm. This allows you to pull the trapeze out by at least 2.5 mtr without increasing the pull force in any significant way. In reverse it takes in similar amounts without losing much pulling force at all. In my particular setup I tested it to 5 mtr pull-out and it still worked as planned. It is important to keep the little blocks running smoothly though. Do it like this and don't worry to much about the loss of pulling force.


>>The purpose of the bungy line is to store the trapeze in an easily accessible position
AND provide an upward pull to tension the ring in the harness.

"No problem" on the first and "its good enough on the second. I find that the inward pull pulls the top of the ring towards the trampoline and thus keeps the ring in the hook when the length is more or less adjusted properly for getting out. It does so less than the more cenventional vertical bungee cords to pull on the adjustment line but I personally go in and out high and drop lower when out so I don't think much of this supposed problem. It is however important to have some distance between the baring surface of the ring/hook and the attachment of the bungee. This to allow it to angle. So the other systems allow more leeway in this but your system should give you enough pull upward to prevent the ring from dropping out. I'm happy. But than again I don't lead the bungees all the way to the gunnal but have them come out of the mainbeam (far in front) and out from the trampoline (some distance inward) I think this helps keeping the ring in the hook


>>If the ring is raised to provide tension, the crew WILL NOT be in the best position.

Somebody is forgetting that the trapezes drawn are adjustable in length while out.


However if this setup falls than there is a very easy fix. Just shackle two small blocks to one another and let the bungee run through the lower one while the cleat adjustment line runs through the top one. This will give you the old system again. I had this in mind if mine system should have failed. I haven't converted yet nor do I think I will do so. See picture.

So my approach was just try it and see it it works and if not than I can always modify it to the old system. You can walk the same path.

Wouter

Robi, didn't your trapeze wires come with handles on them? You don't show any in your sketch.

Yep they include T handles, and the bungi runs from one side to another under the tramp. I thought I did not have to demostrate those details. But the boat included a "Normal" trapeze system.

Come to think of it. If the shackle is smooth and round on the inside than you have replace the bungee past the green bead for a line and run that Through the shackle (not have the shackle attached to the ring) and thus has a very close approximation of the more conventional system. Same working but without the cost of an extra small block. You could event replace the small block and shackle for a small stainless steel ring and run both lines through that and go cheaper still. The ring must be small enough to not let the bead through.

Wouter

In this photo you can see Gary using what seems to look like the system I am describing.

Although some say it will not work, here you can see someone using it just fine.

http://www.pksc.com.au/images/Kembla%20Kup%202005/KK%20F16-4.JPG

Yeah - but you can't see what the guys were talking about above. It is important that the bunji provides upward force on the dogbone (or ring....whatever) when the system is at rest. That way if you are in 'almost' trapeze conditions and you are sitting on the hull but hooked in with intent to pop out on a moments notice - the bunji helps keep the dogbone pulled upwards and engaged in your trapeze hook. It is unclear in your original drawing if the bunji does this but this site does sell the complete trapeze kit (including v-jam cleat and handles) that is close to what you have drawn.

Robi, what are you trying to accomplish? Are you saying that the "normal" trapeze system you got with the boat was not adjustable while on the wire and you are trying to figure out a simple way to make it adjustable without adding any parts?

Have you sailed the boat yet with the trapeze system set up in its "normal" configuration?

A new boat is kind of like moving into a new house -- you need to live with it awhile before you figure out how to best arrange the furniture and where to hang the pictures.

Robie,

What the guys are saying about the dog bone needing to provide an upward pull to tension the ring in the harness is correct and one of the most important aspects of a good trapeze set up.

Your system will work if you lift the ring a foot or so from the deck and lower yourself down every time you go out but this is impractical. To trap at the correct hight your ring should be (when pulled down) between about an inch of deck level to 7 inches below when the breeze is steady, waves are not too high and you can trap very low without getting smashed off trap.

Without the pully being higher or your ring way off deck level, your dog bone WILL pul out of the harness.

If in doupt, watch the Tornado guys. The top guys are full time professionals and spent a LOT of time working on user friendy and the quickest systems out there. Their career and hundreds of thousands of dollars are on the line. If you are thinking it....... Chances are they have been there, done that and already refined it to near perfection.

Cheers mate and good sailing to you.

Exactly you cannot adjust it while on the wire. The boat included enough parts where all I would need is the cleats. That would be it, to incorporate the design, that I drew. Not that this is an entireley new design, it has been used.

Yes I have, and I am not happy with it "as is" the reason for change.

Not necessarily true, as soon as I saw the boat, I mentioned to Matt a few changes that I would make to its simple layout. The boat is rigged perfectly, but there is NOTHING wrong with making personal changes.

Oh lord no! There's not an F18 out there that is rigged identically!

Robi, it looks to me like the set-up in the Murrays catalog that was referred to is also adjustable in the way you are wanting, but also provides the upward tension that several people have described.

My boat has the arrangement that you are describing, but after reviewing the posts here, I can see the advantages of having the bungy attached to the top of the ring rather than the bottom, and think I need to make some modifications.

I don't have a lot of trapezing experience, but I don't find it real easy to get in and out of the trapeze with my current arrangement.

Mark.

Mary had some good advice up top too. here are my rules for rigging changes:

1) Even if the changes you are planning are proven on other boats NEVER, EVER, make more than 2 rigging changes between sailing sessions.

2) if you are trying something that is unproven (if #3 doesn't apply), NEVER, EVER make more than 1 rigging change between sailing sessions.

3) look at other boats - if you like the way something looks, talk to the owner how to make sure they are happy with it before you steal the idea.

4) whenever possible, temporarily mount things to prove out the positions using line or other mounting points to avoid drilling extra holes....I hate extra holes or having to remake rigging that I messed up.

5) Bounce ideas off your crew whenever possible. It helps them feel like you care (even if you don't)

6) Crew the boat occasionally to see what hell you have unleashed on that person by the latest change.

These rules have done me pretty well on the F18 and although we've been tweaking the boat for 6 months, we've got some pretty fancy yet simple and streamlined rigging, are almost rigged how we like it, and haven't had to undo anything we've added.

I havent read the entire post so escuse me if someone has already said this.
In wouters diagram it looks as if the port and starboard bungees are connected. I would advise against connecting any of the bungees to each other. If one breaks, then 2 are free to get all tangled up. Double your bungee(run bungee to other side of the hull and back) this will give you plenty of slack to go around the forestay if that happens in a pitchpole, but will also allow you to keep tension on the trap handle.

David
www.teamseacats.com

Dave that is an awesome idea. I did it on the H16 and I plan on doing it on the F16. Once I get my adjustment setup done and built I will go to individual bungi cords.

I plan on running back and forth like Wouters design, but individually from one another.

Dude - can't wait to see that boat on the water again... I like the way Matt thinks.

I have to agree with what folks are saying about the bungee pulling up on the ring. The adjustable idea has its applications, and I'm sure you'll work out something that fits your need. I've sailed with both, but when setting up a 2005 Tiger (which comes stock with the adjustable system for the crew's trap) I took it off. With the handle rings, there are two places to hook in if I need to get my butt out of big waves, and I grab the skipper's trap if I'm on the wire downwind.

You're basic point, though, is the most valid one - set it up for what you prefer most. Tinkering is fun. Walking around the beach at Worlds gave me the opportunity to see how people from around the world rig stuff - Peter Dubbelaar (crewing for Steve Fields of Hobie Australia) was particularly helpful in pointing out some simple things that the Aussies do to clean up the tramp, eliminate sharp edges, etc... wish I'd had a camera handy.

Post a pic of whatever you work out.

John, I took a load of pictures of their rigging on Tuesday when the sailing was cancelled. I'll post a few tonight.

Chris.

Excellent! Where should we look? I particularly noted wide variations in cunningham (main and jib) set ups and self-tackers. Liked the internal stuff that came out of the beams...

Good thinking - glad someone had their wits about them... I only remember Don Q....

You think I don't read this Jake?!?! LOL

Too funny Chris! See you this weekend!

David

Oh Crap!

OH HO! someone got caught red handed?

you guys don't EVEN want to see the trap rig on my ARC. I can get launched (liked I usuallt do) up to 50 yards and still not snap the bungi. I use the no cut, non adjustable style with a classic dogbone. You can use either enclosed area which gives you about 4" dif.

Plus it weighs less and has fewer things to break and drop you into the water.

I have been thinking about a similiar system for the ball and socket system

Carl,
For the ball-and-socket system, though, you only have the option of one level, right? As opposed to two options using a dogbone. (I've never used the ball-and-socket, so I don't know.)

Jake, You broke the code! You must pay penitence to fellow skips.

I don't know about "Penitence" (That's the third time I had to pull out a dictionary today) but I do give credit where credit is due. notice on the picture here "WWDLD". When three of us bought brand new F18's we kept thinking about what our local rigging expert would do....David Lennard. So we pay homage by having "What Would David Lennard Do" on our boats!

AS USUAL weezy, you are proving that your arrogance is only mached by your inexperience.

I DID NOT SAY "never work".
I said "does NOT work properly" and CANNOT work properly".
Don't you understand the difference?
We all realize that you will stoop to anything to win an argument,
but it is very stupid of you to misquote someone in the same thread.
You can always use your lack of understanding the english language as an excuse.

I guess what is "good enough" for you just isn't good enough for the rest of us.
The ring is "adjusted properly" when it is at the PROPER trapezing height, not storage height.

Nobody with any experience, adjusts trap lines EVERYTIME they go out and back in.
How ridiculous!!
The idea of the bungi is to prevent that.

Even one of your AUS f16 sailors provided proof that your system CAN disconnect itself before you move out on the trap.
His trapeze harness even had the retaining clip and it still failed.

Jesus SAM! Chillax dude.

Robi,
You have become a clone of the dutch doofus.
Misquoting me just to try to justify your statements.
I DID NOT SAY "will not work"".
I said "does NOT work properly." and "CANNOT work properly".
The key word is "PROPERLY".
Is english not your native language?

Why did you say "someone using it just fine" when two hours before you made that statement the person in question
clearly stated, on the f16 forum, that the bungi HAD PULLED THE DOGBONE OFF SEVERAL TIMES exactly as I had warned?
He even mentioned looking up a post about a system which puts tension on the hook.
Obviously, he wants to change his.

I am not "confused with the drawing."
As a Civil Engineer, I have created and interpreted drawings for 25 years.
You may have drawn it wrong, but I did not read it wrong.
Except for the bungi cord, your "design" is very old and very common.

Let's check the count.
1 vote for your exact system (wooznik)
11 votes against it (including Worrell 1000, Tybee 500, Tornado, and other experienced sailors)

But you people seem to want to listen to a person who has very little racing experience.

Are you still so confident?

WOW, thats a really smart reply there. Being an engineer for 25yrs, I would assume you have a better come back. Sail more post less.

Let's get back to the original post, okay??

The system does not work. The bungie will pull the trapeze ring out of the hook because there is no take up tension. You won't find any national or world multihull crew sailing with that rig. The pic of the Marstrom system shows clearly a take up bungie system. As long as the ring is pulling up into the hook, it will work!

Bob Curry
Been there, got the t-shirt, chewed the gum on this one!

Well, I've been patiently waiting for someone to bring up what I have found from experience as the weak link in this adjustable system. Your digression into the bungee tension aspects of the setup certainly was entertaining, but the reason I gave up on the adjustable system was the v-jam cleat surrendering at the most unexpected moment. Boom ... you teabag when you least can afford it. Stick with a single length system and let the skipper adjust (raise a couple of inches) the heel angle of the boat to keep you out of the waves.
Anybody else have this experience with the cleat?

Yes, but we have found that it depends a bit on the line used. The wrong line will definately dump you into the drink, whereas the right line works just fine.

Ditto.

Of course I'm not world class sailor so anything I say is rubbish according to some people. However, I have a knot in the adjustable line that blocks the system from giving more way than to the lowest position I ever want to be. So I won't fall in the drink and I can always find to lowest position quickly. I only use the adjustability to hang higher to come and go out or to clear the waves or hang higher than my crew so I can see what is going on ahead.

Wouter

Use a line with a soft outer core

Of course we also have a knot which stops any sudden downward acceleration if the line slips (but it never slip unless the wrong line is used)

If the line is to long, or you are sailing relatively flat, you might become wet anyway of the line slips (which it doesnt do if it is correctly sized and relatively soft). But you will not be dropped completely into the water.
We have tied the knot so it also offer a loop you can slip your hand into, to get a better grip when raising yourself one-handed.

There is no problem in letting the whole cleat/ring system be pulled upwards by a bungee, so it doesn't slip out of your trapeeze hook.

Please define "outer core."
Seems like an oxymoron to me. I can see a "soft shell/cover."???
Trey
N20 314
Layline Rigging
www.velocitysailing.com