Isotope information request

I am new to cat sailing and am considering an Isotope for a first catamaran. Anticipated use is myself solo (220lb) and two up with one of my kids (110lb) for recreational sailing and racing. Less use would be two teenagers eventually with a friend or two and below that, the entire family (560lb). We have other boats for family use, so capacity for the family is desirable, but not required. Primary sailing area would be the St. Andrew Bay at Panama City, FL and the nearby Gulf.

It seems like the Isotope is a nice, lightweight, easily righted cat that would be good for the kids to sail yet has good speed potential for a smaller cat for someone interested in looking for it. So, to the questions.

Are they a good first cat?

I understand that Isotopes are considered solo boats for racing, but is there accommodation given for two-up racing?

Are they capable of running something like the Slip to Ship race, or are they more of a lake boat?

What is the max weight capacity?

Other recommendations for the above conditions are welcome.

Thanks!

You can find lots of people to talk to at this location:
http://www.carolinasailingclub.org/about/contacts.htm
Good people to talk to would be Joleen Rasmussen or J.P. Ayers.

The Isotope is raced both single-handed and double-handed. Some really neat features, including built-in storage/coolers in the hulls and was the first (and is still the only) cat to come stock with a righting pole system.

The designer is also the builder, International Fiberglass Corporation. http://www.intl-fiberglass.com/boats.html

It has a strong and enthusiastic, though small, class association centered in North Carolina.

I would really recommend checking out another cat. Isotopes are not meant for the ocean. I have been to the factory and seen them built, and while they are great lake boats, they are not designed to handle the rigors that ocean/bay/etc put out. There are many other boats that will suit your needs that can be easily righted also. For that matter, at 220 lbs, you could solo-right an Inter-20, much less some other boats. As far as sailing with family, etc goes, I strongly recommend a Hobie 18sx or magnum. You just can't beat the wings. Add Rick's solo-righting bar, and you're golden! Good luck!
Trey
N20 314
Layline Rigging
www.velocitysailing.com

The bay can get pretty darn choppy with certain wind directions and powerboat wakes. Look for a higher freeboard cat, IMO. Isotopes are perfectly suited for lake sailing. Have fun in your search!

Bob

Are you looking for a second hand boat or a new boat ?

In the second hand range I would look for Prindle 16's, nacra 5.0 (nacra 500), nacra 570 and Hobie 16's as your first cats. These can be had cheaply and are good boats to sail at the weight you give (both solo and doublehanded). The nacra 570 may be a bit much to singlehand tough.

When looking at buying a new boats I would suggest you look at

Nacra 500 and nacra 570.


And if you are really up to it take a look at the Blade F16.



The last is truly a lightweight boat (110 kg or 240 lbs) that may be just right for you. That is under the assumption that you have prior sailing experience and know how to take the first steps on the catamaran learning curve without completely crash-and-burn'ing the boat. The professional builder is in Titusville Fl and a test ride is possible upon request. The F16 class is (slowly) developping in Florida. If you are serious in doing some recreational racing then this (class) aspect may be of interest to you. But as I said, it is designed as a fast race boat. As soon as the main is trimmed right she will accellerate and develop high speeds. Last weekend when I signlehanded my own F16 (Taipan 4.9 based) I nearly got thrown of the back after a gibe because of the sudden acceleration. I allowed the boat to head up to far and the power was ON right after the flow reattached itself to the mainsail. Still I very much consider the F16 a forgiving boat. Go to This post (click on link) and read a report by another interested sailor to get a first idea of what I mean. If you got the chance and if you are in the market for a 12.000 US new boat (build in US) than I would certainly advice that you get a test sail on the Blade F16 and see if it fits your needs well. If you background in sailing is sufficient it may well be the best option. Otherwise I advice the 16 foot nacra, hobie and prindles.

Wouter

Wouter,
Are you speaking here as chairman of the F16 class? If so, shouldn't you also mention the other F16 classes, which presumably fit the same criteria and are equal in performance and some of which can be found used?

Second hand F16's are hard to find. He is mentioning the Blade, because the original poster is in Panama City FL. Only makes sense to recommend the Blade seing how it is built locally. Nothing wrong with that.

Steveh; If you are ever in South FL, Miami or Ft Lauderdale area, you are more than welcomed to test drive my Blade.

Thanks Mary,



I was actually commenting as a private (F16) sailor although that may be a luxury that a chairman of a class does not have.



I didn't want to make to much of a F16 post of it. And as the Blade is build relatively close to Steve I concentrated on that. Indeed the others like Taipans and Stealth are good boats as well (see my report on the stealth in a few days) but the Euro-US$ and Aus$-US$ exchange rates are pretty much making these options unattractive.

On second hand F16's I can be short. There aren't any in the US at this time. There used to be 2 on offer in februari but both owners retracted this offer and decided to keep their boats. Like I wrote in my other post. There is no second hand market for F16's to mention. Sailors hang on to these boats or they are sold to a friend or fellow clubmember before an outsider can get hold of it.

But if Steve is interested than I propose to lay out the full picture then.

Wouter

I was wondering how long the F16 crowd was going to take to chime in. How long is it going to take to pervert this thread into yet another F16 thread?

Actually, I think the Isotope could probably modify its rig so it could fit into the F16 Class.

Thanks for the information, folks, it's much appreciated!

I have about 10 years experience on a Compac 16 and a Catalina 22, but I've been on precisely two cats; a rental Hobie Wave and an F18 in a PC Catamaran Club race. THAT was the clincher. Looking for used and max budget is about $3k, though I might be able to stretch that for the right boat.

I think my real dilemna is that I don't want to get too much boat for single-handing because I'm not sure how close real use will be to anticipated use. On the other hand, if the family consistantly wants to go by fast sail instead of slow sail or fast power, I don't want too small of a boat, either.

I hadn't really thought of the winged Hobies because I'm not wild about the look. Perhaps the practicality of them warrants a revisit.

If I could find a P18-2 anywhere nearby, I'd jump on it. The part of the bay where I'll primarily be using this (West Bay) is very shallow, although I don't want to limit myself to non-daggered boats soley for this reason.

Only a couple more posts!

And what do you mean by using the word 'pervert'? - We're quite nice people really!!

I'd recommend the P18-2. It seems like a perfect fit for your needs. Keep looking. If you were willing to make a roadtrip up here I could probably find one for you. There are a few sitting around that haven't been used in years. I'd have to do some looking though.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

Mary,

On the IFG website:

Steve,
Did you check the classifieds on this site? There are a number of boats for sale in Florida that fit your budget and also your needs.

Okay with this my advice will definately be : Prindle 16, nacra 5.0 or nacra 500, Hobie 16 and nacra 5.2. I wouldn't go bigger than 17 foot and would not worry at all about daggerboard or not having daggerboards. I don't agree that P18-2 or any 18 cat would be a good choice with the exception of Prindle 18 and Nacra 5.7 (570) Most of the 18 to 19 foot boats are not great singlehanders when you look at safety and comfortable sailing in anything over 10 knots of wind.

While I definately a "go fast" and technology junky (that is why I sail F16) I would advice to go for the simpler boats in your situation. They will give the most bang for 3000 bucks or (much) less. If you opt for a more modern 16 footer like the nacra 5.0 or mystere 5.0 than these can later easily be upgraded with a spinnaker and do well (handle well). So that is why I perfer to advice these boats. I believe they cna grow more with your needs and wishes over time. Hobie 16 would be very good choice in most area's because of the class racing but I appears that Florida is not a particular active area in this respect.

An Isotope would be a very good choice all-round IF you can find it at offered second hand at 3000 US$ which I doubt.

If I had to make a choice would go hunting for second hand Isotopes, nacra 5.0's and mystere 5.0's. With Prindle 16 and Hobie 16 on the second row and 18 footer on the third row, but only just.

Wouter

I used to own a Nacra 5.0--it sounds like it would meet your needs well--rugged, easy to single hand or double hand and can carry more people, easy to get parts (still made as the 500), easy to right, no daggerboards or centerboards to worry about. You should be able to get an excellent 5.0 with trailer for 2K--save some budget for PFDs, trapeze harnesses, etc.

At 220 lbs, it would be great boat for you--enough but not too much.. (Not to say there aren't other great boats).

Jalani, thank you for finding that. I had no idea. I don't recall it ever being mentioned on the F16 site. Very interesting -- well, at least to me. I thought maybe they had too much sail area, main and jib, to qualify as F16.

P.S. Maugan, see, now we are sort of back on topic about the Isotope.

Also to ME ! I knew they were looking at doing a F16 package to the Isotope (spi, snuffer, etc), I just didn't know it was official yet. Been to busy with other things. Funny

Wouter, what's the advantage of a P18 over a P18-2?

I have the Compac 16 for e-z, two-lines-and-a-tiller sailing, but with a Portsmouth rating of 108.7, you can see why I'm looking at cats. I'm very tempted to open up the budget to pick up a NACRA 6.0 or Hobie Miracle, but I recognize that those are likely to be too much boat for a cat newbie (though that's never stopped me before) so I'm inclined at this point to keep a cap on the budget and size and go with a NACRA 5.5, one of the TheMightyHobie18 models or the P18-2. Potential crew weight of 320 - 350 lbs seems to almost demand the 18 footers. I'm not dismissing the Mysteres, I've just never seen one listed for sale within 500 miles of here.

I appreciate all the comments and advice, even the F16 sidetrack, because it's all gotten me to thinking what I really want out of a cat and that's to go fast, to compete with one of my kids as crew and to occasionally take the family out, not shallow water sailing or a kid play boat. The local club is mostly 18's and 20's, so showing up with a P16 could lead to a lonely existance out on the bay.

Now to see if I can find one before the next Slip to Ship.

Hey Mary hey Wouter,

About the Isotope class being F16 compliant. I wrote the article on the IFG website. Wouter I thought I was stating what the F16 class decision was several years ago. Of course you as chairman would have final decision.

The Isotope is underpowered with sail under the F16 sail footage requirments but until we start sailing with crew the 185sqft will stay the same. Last fall my boat became a human catapult on a cross gust half way through a jibe (plenty of Sail).

It was a pleasure to finaly met you at Spring Fever Mary.

Cheers,
J.P.Ayers
Isotope 186 (shark boat)

J.P.

The decision in 2002 (because that is the one you are referring too) was about letting Isotopes race with us at Springfever signlehandedly with main and jib. Pretty much dispensations are reviewed yearly and as we have not seen an Isotope race with us since 2002 this decision sort of expired. With this in mind I made my other post. We can of course revive the 2002 decision but I honestly don't think it will be much fun for you guys. The jib is not enough against the spinnakers. It would be pretty skewed racing between sloop Isotopes and F16's in all conditions except the very light stuff were the spi won't fill properly. This is also the reason why I don't have much trouble in reviving the 2002 decision. (sorry )

And there is something else. Through Paul Kilkenny (F16 California) I learned that IFG was working on a F16 compliant spi package. At that time it was expressed that when the Isotope features a spinnaker that then they can not use the jib when singlehanding. Such a spi-isotope setup would not be covered by the 2002 decision and therefor such an Isotope must be fully compliant with the F16 rules or request a new dispensation.

I must admit though that I haven't heard anything official from IFG along the lines that such a F16 spi package has been finalized. I do feel it will make the Isotope a whole different beast.

Wouter

Hey Wouter,

No problems, this is a classic example of one design vs formula racing. I do think the Blade in the U.S. will do well due to it's local manufacturer, but the Isotope will probably stay the same. As long as we have a fleet to race against nothing will change. Its just that the sailors like to single hand. There is some discussion at IFG as to whether they would make a F16 compliant boat. The driving force for such a boat would be an order. There may be some experimentation with a spinaker for the Cheshire, for the F14 class we have one made but it hasen't gotten wet yet.

Will be sailing down in New Bern N.C. at the Clark Cup tommorrow. Wish me luck. May send a write up to Cat Sailor.

Good Luck
J.P.Ayers

Good Luck J.P. !



And completely right you are.




That is sort of a catch 22 situation isn't it ? You won't get a serious order without a boat that has proven itself (drawback of a formula class setup) and IFG won't make a boat without an order.


Wouter

J.P.,
If the F16 class gets going in this country, it would be interesting to see how the Isotope compares if it is rigged to fit the F16 class. And I don't think it requires somebody to buy a new boat fitted out for that purpose. An existing owner could modify their sail rig to comply, couldn't they?

Most events involving F16's will probably be on inland lakes, which are where the Isotope excels.

I'm one of those people who think that new hull designs are not necessarily better or faster than old hull designs. We just rarely get a chance to test them against each other, boat for boat.

It would be fun to have a series of F16 "shootouts" for a few years to find out what works and what doesn't as far as hull design if all the boats have relatively equal sail configurations (meaning that some might be less sail area).

IF, and that's a big if, the Isotope turned out to be fast enough to compete boat for boat in the F16 configurations, that would be a big plus for the Isotope and for its designer and manufacturer.

Then we would have TWO F16 builders in this country.

If anyone is willing to bring a Isotope to South FL, I am willing to provide the Blade do some FUN match racing. We can even swap crews, and swap boats. I think that would an awesome comparison. Remember I am a newbie racer, but I will NOT use that as an excuse